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WWW.MY-SUBS.CO
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Oh.
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Do you work here?
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- Um, I'm a visitor.
- Right.
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Right. Do you wanna
just come through for a second?
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Sorry. I'm a bit late.
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That's all right.
I saw you coming up on the cameras.
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He's being brought down.
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Um, I heard he was involved
in a violent incident.
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- How'd you hear that?
- It was reported up.
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- That would be useful to see...
- Is that... relevant?
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To what you'll assess?
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I'd like to see it.
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Okay. I'll, uh, fire up the megaport.
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Yeah, he's been pretty quiet.
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Don't know if that's relevant.
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If what I think and observe
is relevant to what you assess.
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Here we go.
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- Yeah. It's just bruising and scratching.
- I read the report.
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- Both blame the other.
- I know. I read the report.
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You're on... five visits?
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- Yes.
- Mm.
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Know what you're
gonna say in the report?
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I wouldn't be here if I knew that.
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Well, the other one of you.
He only needed three, so...
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You can't say any more.
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It's important I don't know
what the other psychologist says,
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does, or thinks.
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It's about making the right assessment,
not the fastest.
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- Sorry. I'm just being an idiot.
- No, I did... That's just the way I work.
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Right. That's Jamie in place.
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I'll take you through.
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I need to get a hot chocolate
from the machine.
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I remember.
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Get off me!
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No! You get off!
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Yeah, we've got a torture lab
in the basement.
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Government approved. All very hush-hush.
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What are they?
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He likes his hot chocolate
with marshmallows on.
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You must mean business.
Never done them before.
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That was, uh, Mark, I think.
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Radiator burns all over him, poor kid.
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I don't know what he did
to get here, though.
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He's not famous like your Jamie.
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- Come on!
- Two of us on the way now.
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Right. You know where I am.
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- You okay?
- Yes.
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- Hi, Jamie.
- Hi.
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- You need us, we're here.
- Yes.
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- Same goes for you, Jamie.
- Yeah.
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We'll be watching, okay?
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Hot chocolate.
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Spri... Sprinkles?
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Lots of them.
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You remembered. Thank you.
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And I saved you half my sandwich
in case you were hungry.
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What is it?
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Cheese and pickle.
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No tomatoes?
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Tomatoes don't go very well
with pickle.
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No salad?
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Would I do that to you?
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There's no tomatoes. No salad.
There's just cheese and pickle.
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- Do you want it? I'll save it for later.
- No. I'll have it.
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Ah, I... I don't know about pickle,
though, but... I'll have it.
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- Did you make it?
- Yes.
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- You make butties, do you?
- What, you think that's weird?
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No. My mum makes 'em.
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Well, that makes two of us, then.
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This is nice.
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It's a bit hot.
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I don't mind hot.
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- You're looking better than last time.
- What's that supposed to mean?
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You've just got some of your color back.
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- You sound like a granny.
- Do I?
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"Oh, you got your color back.
You can't have been that ill."
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- That's a good voice.
- No.
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Do you see your grandparents much?
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- Well, not recently, no.
- No, I meant before all this.
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Yeah, a bit.
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My dad's side... my dad's mum and dad.
My mum didn't get on with hers.
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Yeah, we spoke about that.
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So, what are your dad's parents like?
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I don't know. Like him.
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Well, what does that mean?
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They like things as they like them.
"No gravy. Such a shame."
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Or, "I like a slice with my dinner
if you've got one in, Amanda."
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A slice... A slice of what?
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Bread.
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- You're posh, aren't ya?
- No, I'm just not from where you're from.
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Well, what do you call bread
if you don't call it a slice?
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Mm, bread?
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You're posh.
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If it makes you happy that I am,
Jamie, then I am.
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Well, what do you call your grandad?
Bet you call him "Grandpa."
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- I do not.
- I bet you do.
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I call him "Pop-pop."
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What?
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Do ya?
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- Yes, I do.
- Wow!
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- Jesus. I've not heard that one before.
- I don't know why.
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Okay. Maybe he asked me
to call him that. I'm not sure.
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God, you're really posh.
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Are you not gonna try the sandwich?
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I'll have it later.
It's just... the pickle.
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Hate it.
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You hate it?
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- Oh, I really messed up, then.
- Yeah, you did.
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Okay.
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So, can we talk a bit about you?
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You see a lot of your dad
in your grandad, do you?
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Yeah, I don't know.
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Is it just what they say,
or how they do things?
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What's your dad and his dad like?
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Men.
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Okay. Well, would "masculine"
be an okay word to use?
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You used it.
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When I hear the word "masculine,"
I think they can mend things.
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They like to make things.
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They like sports.
They like going to the pub.
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Yeah.
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Not the pub, but, yeah.
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Your dad doesn't go to the pub?
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No, not... not really.
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Not as much as my pop-pop.
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- Not gonna let me forget that, are you?
- No.
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So, your grandad's
more of a pub man, is he?
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I dunno. He...
He's not around that much anymore.
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How much?
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Every other Sunday, maybe.
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Sometimes in the
week when they're both...
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Mum and Dad are both working,
but that's more Granny.
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A bit more in the holidays.
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- We went to Tenerife with them once.
- On holiday?
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No, banana picking.
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- Obviously it was on holiday.
- Okay.
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I don't think I've ever heard anyone
use banana picking in a comeback.
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I suppose the other thing I think about
when I hear the word "masculine"
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would be the way that masculine men...
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This started 'cause I said
you sounded like a granny.
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What?
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This all started because I
said you sounded like a granny.
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And now you're just going on
about masculine stuff.
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Yes.
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The first time you came,
you had actual questions.
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"Is this right, Jamie? Do you
know whether this is wrong, Jamie?"
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- Now you're just chatting shit.
- I hope I'm not.
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Well, you are,
because the first time you're all,
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"If an adult guinea pig eats one
of its kids, is that normal or weird?"
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- And now you're, "What do you call bread?"
- Come on.
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- I'm interested.
- It feels like a trick.
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Trick? Trick into what?
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My dad's okay.
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All right?
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Okay. I know.
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Just talking about him.
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There isn't a need.
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Fine, if that's how you feel.
But I'm not trying to trick you.
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- And now I've pissed you off.
- No.
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Can I see your notes?
What you've got written down about me?
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- Do you see me writing?
- You must write stuff.
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Yes.
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Can I see what you wrote?
What you've written?
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Of course you can't.
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- The lawyers have said you work for us.
- That's not what they say, Jamie.
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And I know that because I asked them
the last time you said that to me.
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You talk to them?
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I explained. I've been employed
by your team, but I don't work for you.
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- What do you tell them?
- I'm writing an independent...
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- What do they say to you?
- A presentence offense report.
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Which the judge will read
to get an understanding of you
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and your understanding
of the charges. Okay?
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All I want to do is talk to you, Jamie,
and have you talk to me.
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Yes, I've asked
some straightforward questions.
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But I think...
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Am I boring you?
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- No.
- Okay.
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I think you,
and everyone else for that matter,
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are far more complex than
straightforward questions allow for.
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We had a good conversation last time.
Can we try that again?
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What did we talk about last time?
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We spoke about your friends,
your sister, your mum. We went...
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- Can't remember saying anything about 'em.
- Well, you did.
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00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,479
How you feel about them. How Lisa's doing.
What you think your mum thinks of you.
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- Now you wanna talk about my dad?
- I want to talk about lots of things.
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00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:21,519
I could tell you questions that
I wrote down to talk to you about today.
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If that helps.
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All right. Yeah.
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Okay. Well, I wanted
to talk about the fight you had.
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- That was nothing.
- I was interested why you got in a fight.
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- He hit me first.
- Why?
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Because we've had beef over stuff.
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It doesn't matter.
It wasn't a proper fight.
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- It's not that interesting?
- It's not.
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Okay, let's move on.
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00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,240
- What? I'm in charge now, am I?
- Mm. Maybe.
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00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,960
I also wrote down that I wanted to talk
to you about what being a man feels like.
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00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,840
You want a cock and balls, do ya?
199
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,680
I'm interested in what being a man
feels like for you.
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00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:04,440
I dunno.
201
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,800
It's too big a question, right?
202
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,280
And the fight's too small a question.
203
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,159
Which is why it's more useful for me
to see where the conversation goes
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00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,439
and steer it a bit into what you think of
your dad and your grandad, for instance.
205
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,159
The type of men you think they are.
206
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,080
Rather than saying, "So, Jamie, what
do you think being a man feels like?"
207
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,479
"So, Jamie, what do you think
being a man feels like?"
208
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:28,840
It's not a trick.
209
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,600
It's just a conversation.
210
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So, do you think it would be okay
if we speak about your dad?
211
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,759
Can I just see your notes?
What you wrote, how you wrote it?
212
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:47,680
Nope.
213
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:49,840
You're not that in charge.
214
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,480
Does your dad like his job?
215
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:57,520
He fixes toilets. What do you think?
216
00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:59,240
He works hard.
217
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,759
Long hours. You get the best money
from emergency plumbing out of hours.
218
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:04,840
Is he funny?
219
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:06,399
Sometimes.
220
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:07,360
Loving?
221
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,960
- No, that's weird.
- Angry?
222
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:11,879
I suppose.
223
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,320
How angry does he get?
224
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:14,999
He's never hit me.
225
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:16,400
Okay, go on.
226
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,320
Go on what?
227
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,559
- Is that what this is about?
- Why do you call him angry?
228
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,119
He just gets mad. We all do.
229
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,800
Okay. That's okay.
He's just angry in a normal way.
230
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:35,160
Well, he's pulled a shed down once
when he was in a proper rager, but...
231
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,879
...that's as bad as it gets.
232
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,240
Were you frightened?
233
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,760
No, I... I thought it was quite funny
at the time.
234
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,520
Lisa did too. Then Mum sent us upstairs.
235
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:50,960
He's not like that most of the time.
236
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,120
Hardly ever.
237
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,320
What does he do when he's not working?
238
00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,919
It just feels like you're testing him.
239
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:02,560
No, I'm just interested
in your view of him.
240
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,239
He's a big presence in your life.
He was your appropriate adult.
241
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,720
Yeah, 'cause... he doesn't judge.
242
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:11,360
He... He's a kind person.
243
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,120
That's good to know.
244
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,600
So, what does he do
when he's not working?
245
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,960
He basically likes all sport.
246
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,039
My mum always said if he'd watch
lawn bowls, he'd make it fun.
247
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,000
Would you watch lawn bowls with him?
248
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,119
No, it's... it's not for me.
249
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,440
Are you not into sport?
250
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,480
- No.
- None of it?
251
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,480
Yeah, I'm... I'm not good at much, but...
I'm really good at getting out of PE.
252
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,320
How do you do that, then?
253
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,480
Um, headaches. Hurt my leg.
254
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:46,920
Funny tummy.
255
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,999
"Sir, I feel dizzy.
Can I sit down?" That sort of thing.
256
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,160
What did... does your dad make of that?
257
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,240
He, um... He didn't...
258
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,080
He doesn't... He doesn't know.
259
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,160
He knew I wasn't sporty
or anything like that.
260
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,680
I... I used to, uh...
He used to take me to football.
261
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,680
This...
262
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,160
This football thing on... on Saturdays.
263
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:19,760
And he'd, um...
264
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,080
He'd cheer me on and everything, but...
265
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,760
But when I... I'd fuck up, he'd just...
266
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,560
He'd... He'd just look away.
267
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,480
Pretend he didn't see?
268
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,800
Maybe, or...
269
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,240
Maybe he just didn't want me
to see him looking...
270
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,640
...sorry.
271
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:07,440
Sorry?
272
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:10,360
I dunno.
273
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:12,560
Ashamed.
274
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,280
How did you feel when
you saw that shame?
275
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,760
- You're supposed to say he wasn't.
- Am I?
276
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,280
Yeah.
277
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,559
You're supposed to say,
"Oh, bet he wasn't ashamed."
278
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,119
"Bet you just thought that, Jamie."
279
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,999
Or, "Is that what you really think?
He wouldn't be ashamed, not of his kid."
280
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,239
- Have other people said that to you?
- It's just the right thing to say.
281
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:38,519
Isn't it lying?
282
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:39,600
No.
283
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,240
I don't know. I don't like lying.
284
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,640
I wasn't into school sports either.
285
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,240
Yeah, well, you were good
at other stuff, though, weren't ya?
286
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,040
Why do you think that?
287
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,400
You look like you were, and you're...
288
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,120
And you're clever, so...
289
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,280
Did you not think
you were very good at anything else?
290
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,320
No. I... I didn't care I wasn't.
291
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,160
It must be hard to feel that way.
292
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:17,600
No.
293
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,560
I think most people think like that.
294
00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,079
Most people think
they're bad at everything?
295
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:24,520
Most people are.
296
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,800
Does your sister feel like that?
297
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:28,440
No.
298
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,120
Lisa's clever.
299
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,800
Your dad?
300
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,680
I don't know.
301
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:37,200
My... My mum does, though.
302
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,800
Your mum thinks she's bad at everything?
303
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,520
She can cook a roast, but...
304
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,720
I mean, you'd have to ask her.
305
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:47,639
Have you met them yet?
306
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,279
- Your family?
- Yeah.
307
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,480
I've... spoken to your dad on the phone.
308
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,039
- Yeah?
- Yes. As part of my assessment.
309
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,239
How is he?
310
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,359
He's okay. He's sad you're here.
I can't say more than that.
311
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,599
Well, it... it's wrong...
312
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:08,680
...that I'm in here.
313
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,240
Can I ask you a question?
314
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:15,960
Of course you can.
315
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,639
- Can you get me out of this place?
- I'm afraid I'm of no use to you there.
316
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,279
Why couldn't they
put me in a proper prison?
317
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,919
- A better facility wasn't available.
- Putting me in a madhouse?
318
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,440
- It's a secure training center.
- Training?
319
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,119
What are they training us for?
320
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,159
The other boys just scream all the time.
321
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,999
They rock backwards and forwards,
and they shout at Coronation Street.
322
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,599
All the way through Corrie.
323
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,079
One kid goes nuts every time he
sees Steve McDonald. It's mad in here.
324
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,479
- This was the best place for you.
- Ryan gets to stay home until his trial.
325
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,559
Ryan isn't accused
of such a serious crime.
326
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,279
Accused. It's all accused.
327
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,319
If I did it, if I hurt her,
then I'd get it, but I didn't, so...
328
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,079
- As far as I understand it...
- Am I getting moved for the trial?
329
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,519
Nothing has been decided yet.
330
00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,999
Do you know where it's gonna be?
London or local?
331
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,159
You need to sit down, Jamie.
If you don't sit down, I have...
332
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,319
You don't know, or
you just won't tell me?
333
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,719
Nothing's been decided yet.
You need to sit down!
334
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:08,639
I don't want to sit!
335
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,759
If you don't sit,
I have to stop this discussion.
336
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,719
- Maybe I want you to!
- Do you?
337
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,919
It'd piss you off. You'd have to go home
and then come back again.
338
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,599
Jamie, if you do not sit...
339
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,999
I don't fucking wanna sit down!
340
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,119
You do not tell me when to sit down!
341
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,519
You do not control what I fucking...
342
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,879
Look at me now!
343
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,839
You do not control what I do in my life!
344
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,039
Get that
in that fucking little head of yours!
345
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:35,559
Fucking hell!
346
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,080
Is everything okay?
347
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,200
- There isn't a problem.
- Fuck.
348
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:45,840
Jamie.
349
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,520
I shouted. I'm sorry.
350
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,839
- Do you want him taken out?
- No.
351
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,440
I'll get a cup of tea,
though, if that's okay.
352
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,080
Can I have another
hot chocolate, please?
353
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,159
- Sure.
- You don't have to.
354
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,199
Sure.
355
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,440
Causing trouble, is he?
356
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,880
Uh, could I look in the room?
357
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,639
- There's no audio.
- That's fine. Can I look?
358
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,759
Of course. Mi casa is your casa.
Or whatever they say.
359
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,200
- After you.
- Thank you.
360
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,120
What are you seeing?
361
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,120
I mean, what is it you're looking for?
Is it body language stuff?
362
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,800
It's just, I'm reading a book
on that at the moment.
363
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,680
My sister gave it to me.
364
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,120
You see,
365
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:44,840
people hide.
366
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:51,160
I know I don't need to tell you this,
but... they hide so much.
367
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,160
Maybe they tell the truth
with their bodies, you know?
368
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,320
- Faces...
- Yes, maybe.
369
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:04,680
I couldn't do what you do.
370
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,080
I'm sure I couldn't do what you do.
371
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,080
Do you want to job swap?
372
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,920
What's your hours?
373
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,399
What's your wages?
374
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,440
- What's your holiday allowance?
- No. I like my job most of the time.
375
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,520
Well... I hate mine.
376
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,000
So you're probably best off.
377
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,360
Right.
378
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,280
That's all I needed.
379
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:31,640
Dib dib dib.
380
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,200
- Pleased to help.
- Thank you.
381
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:36,080
Thanks.
382
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,879
Would you be comfortable
with me staying?
383
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,999
No, I wouldn't like that at all.
384
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,759
Right, Jamie. I'm not a police officer.
I'm not here to elicit a confession.
385
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,999
I'm just here to understand. I
know you think I'm trying to trick you.
386
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,839
I said... I said that ages ago.
387
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,480
I am just here to get an understanding
of your understanding.
388
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,040
And I understand
389
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,000
that you need to have an understanding
of my understanding.
390
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:21,880
Go on.
391
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,960
Ask your questions.
392
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,280
I'm better now.
393
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:32,640
Okay. Uh...
394
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,839
Well, I suppose the other thing I think
of in relation to the word "masculinity"
395
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,000
would be how masculine men
feel about women.
396
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,600
- We're back on that, are we?
- Yes. Is that okay?
397
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,520
Uh, yeah.
398
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,720
You need to have an understanding
of my understanding of women.
399
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,199
- I forgot your hot chocolate.
- It's fine.
400
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,280
- I'll get it.
- No, just... sit down, please.
401
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,759
It's fine. I don't deserve it.
402
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:06,960
I shouted.
403
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,680
Ask your questions
about men, women, whatever.
404
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,320
Well, you must have views
on men and women.
405
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,120
How does your dad treat your mum?
406
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,440
- Are you trying to get at my dad again?
- No, not get at him.
407
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,719
Dad's actually nice to Mum.
408
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,279
You did say he tore down a shed.
409
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,359
Yeah, he just gets angry with himself,
but he's never hit her.
410
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,040
Does he speak to other women?
411
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,479
- What?
- Is he friendly with other women?
412
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,159
What? No. He loves my mum.
413
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,840
No, I'm asking
whether any of his friends are women.
414
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,439
No, his mates are his mates.
415
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,560
And they're men?
416
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:46,879
Is that wrong? What does that mean?
417
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,000
No. No, that's not wrong.
418
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,519
I thought we'd done
talking about my dad.
419
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,160
- Jamie, I'm just trying to understand...
- Understand.
420
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,720
I know, but... none of this
is nothing to do with him.
421
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,599
Okay, that's fine.
422
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,680
- Do you have any mates who are women?
- No.
423
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,320
Like your dad, your mates are male?
424
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,479
The other shrink asks
more normal questions, you know?
425
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,079
- Okay.
- Wanna know what he asks?
426
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,319
- I can't know.
- I'm just saying.
427
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,279
I can't know, Jamie.
My conclusions have to be independent.
428
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,400
All right, okay. I won't say anything.
429
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,600
What do you think about women?
430
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:27,679
I like them.
431
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,480
But you're not, like you say,
particularly friends with them?
432
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,119
I'm not a twat, though.
433
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,120
- Are you attracted to women?
- Yeah, I'm not gay.
434
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,279
We've established
you don't have a girlfriend.
435
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,599
- Yeah.
- But I don't think I asked before.
436
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,239
Would you like a girlfriend?
437
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:43,520
Yeah, who doesn't?
438
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,439
If you had a girlfriend,
what would you do with her?
439
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,959
What does that mean?
440
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,640
Well, would you take her out?
If you did, where would you take her?
441
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,680
The cinema.
442
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,520
To see what kind of film?
443
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:02,440
A horror.
444
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,800
Fifteen certificate?
445
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,160
Mm. Yeah, they're pretty slack.
You can get in.
446
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,880
And after the cinema, would you
447
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,839
take her for a walk,
take her straight home?
448
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:15,880
No.
449
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,880
Not straight home.
450
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,600
Would you want to kiss her?
451
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,600
- Are you allowed to ask these questions?
- What, you don't discuss this in PSHE?
452
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,679
What do you think is the normal amount
453
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,160
someone your age
would do sexually with a girl or boy?
454
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,280
- I told you, I'm not gay.
- I wasn't suggesting that you were.
455
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,240
- You really want me to answer?
- Yes, if you can.
456
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,320
I don't know. Touching. Kissing.
457
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,639
Well, what do you mean by touching?
458
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,640
Touching her... Touching her bits.
459
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,399
Her chest?
460
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,240
- Yeah.
- Her backside?
461
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,280
- Yeah.
- Her vulva?
462
00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:59,200
Her vagina?
463
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,080
I don't know, maybe.
464
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,280
- Probably not?
- Maybe.
465
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,199
Are you sure
you're allowed to ask these questions?
466
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,559
So, you think it's normal
for a 13-year-old heterosexual boy
467
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,040
to have engaged in touching
of a girl's chest and her backside?
468
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:18,040
Above or below clothes?
469
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,560
Below... maybe.
470
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,200
Above, mostly.
471
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,360
I've actually done all that.
Kissing and touching.
472
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,360
Okay.
473
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,599
And I've had two girls
show me their tits. Chest.
474
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,800
It's okay. You don't
have to use my language.
475
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,040
And I touched them, so...
476
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:42,800
Okay.
477
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,120
And one of them touched my,
uh... my... my knob
478
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:49,920
through my trousers.
479
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:52,080
Okay.
480
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,519
And I think she liked it.
481
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:56,600
And you liked it?
482
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:58,200
Of course.
483
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,200
Not really.
484
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:07,559
You didn't like it?
485
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:11,720
I dunno.
486
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,720
There's no right or wrong answer
in this room, Jamie.
487
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,400
You do know that. It's just
your best attempt at the truth.
488
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,000
Yeah.
489
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,800
That... That didn't happen.
490
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,840
- You weren't touched on your trousers?
- No, I wasn't.
491
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,959
And did two girls go topless with you?
492
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:38,880
No, but...
493
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,679
- I've seen photos, though.
- You've seen porn photos?
494
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,760
No, not porn.
495
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:47,920
Everyone sees porn.
496
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,560
Just these two girls in my year
that I knew. Well, know.
497
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,920
You saw photos
of two girls in your year topless?
498
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:58,440
Yeah.
499
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,440
Would they be happy
you saw those photos?
500
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,280
Everyone else did.
501
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,000
Was Katie one of those two girls?
502
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:15,560
What?
503
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,279
- How do you know that?
- How did it feel...
504
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,239
- No. How did you guess that?
- I didn't guess it. I asked it.
505
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,439
And now I'd like to know
what it felt like to see that.
506
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,680
- You're asking whether I got a hard-on?
- I'm asking how it felt.
507
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,999
I... I liked it.
Are we allowed to talk like this?
508
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,239
How does it make you feel,
looking at naked pictures of people?
509
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:35,159
How do you think?
510
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,679
How does it make you feel,
511
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,080
looking at naked pictures
of people you know?
512
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,760
I dunno. Good.
513
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,199
Powerful?
514
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,200
- Do you feel like it gives you a power?
- No.
515
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,880
It's just weird.
516
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,720
Were you attracted to Katie?
517
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:53,640
She wasn't my type.
518
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,560
So you weren't?
519
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,199
She was quite...
520
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,000
...no offense, but flat, you know?
521
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:03,440
Right.
522
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,600
Well, everyone else said it...
who saw it. That's not just me.
523
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,480
The picture got passed around
the school. Snapchat, you know.
524
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,120
It was just her...
525
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,320
...top half.
526
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,560
Not, uh, anything else.
527
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,000
She sent it to Fidget,
and then he sent it on.
528
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,600
Why did she send it to Fidget?
529
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,960
I dunno. She fancied him.
530
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,320
So she was trying to attract him?
531
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,000
I think he asked her.
532
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,600
He's not gonna get
any more pictures, though, is he?
533
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,839
No. She's dead.
534
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,079
No, I...
535
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,680
I didn't mean from her.
536
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,000
I meant from other girls.
537
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,279
No one'll send him pictures
538
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,079
because he wasn't careful
with the one he got.
539
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,319
The twat.
540
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,199
So you think he should have collected
more pictures from more girls
541
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,240
before he shared them with other boys?
542
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,680
Yeah. I dunno.
543
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,400
Why... Why did you say
"She's dead" like that?
544
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:22,880
Because she is.
545
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,639
Jamie, I asked
whether you were attracted to women.
546
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,800
Do you think women are attracted to you?
547
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:41,879
What sort of question's that?
548
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,280
Well, what do you think?
Do you think girls are attracted to you?
549
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,160
No.
550
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:50,840
Of course not.
551
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,120
Why, "of course not"?
552
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,720
Because I'm... I... I'm ugly.
553
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:02,840
How does that make you feel?
554
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,759
- Aren't you supposed to say I'm not ugly?
- What I think isn't important.
555
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,759
You don't say the things
normal people say.
556
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,479
How would you feel if I did?
557
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,719
I don't know why you don't say
things normal people say.
558
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,719
I should have contradicted you
when you said your dad was ashamed,
559
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,679
and you think I should contradict you now
when you tell me you think yourself ugly?
560
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,640
I dunno.
561
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,520
I'm interested in the fact
that you think you're ugly, Jamie.
562
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,319
Yeah, I'm...
563
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:31,799
I'm fascinating.
564
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:32,919
I'm interested in it
565
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,000
because what you think is more important
to me than what is true, okay?
566
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,440
So, how do you feel about being ugly?
567
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,120
Well, how would you feel?
568
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,520
You don't know.
569
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,199
- You're not. You're dead pretty.
- This isn't about me, Jamie.
570
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,599
- You don't think you're pretty?
- I'm not the interesting person.
571
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,759
You don't think you're pretty?
You do think I'm ugly?
572
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,359
I haven't passed judgement on either
of those things. For very good reason.
573
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,599
- "For very good reason."
- I want to understand you.
574
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,399
To understand my understanding
of my understanding of my understanding.
575
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,319
Yes.
576
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,679
- The other bloke is much more easy.
- Okay.
577
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,759
Him checking whether I understand
was much easier.
578
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,720
- Whether I understand what I did.
- They need two opinions for a reason.
579
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,119
Look, no, fuck off!
I didn't fucking say that!
580
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,919
You're fucking putting
words in me mouth!
581
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,399
- It's a fucking trap in here! You are...
- Hey! Jamie!
582
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:37,800
What was that?
583
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:39,840
Hey?
584
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:41,920
What the fuck was that?
585
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,240
Signaling him away
like a fucking queen, yeah?
586
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,320
I need you to sit down.
587
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,360
Fuck.
588
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:22,640
Fuck.
589
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,280
Fuck.
590
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,760
Fuck's sake.
591
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,520
- Are you going to sit down?
- Fuck off!
592
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:38,920
For fuck's sake.
593
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,880
Fuck. Fuck.
594
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,720
Are you done?
595
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,280
Fine.
596
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,320
I will fucking sit down.
597
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,680
You happy now?
598
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:18,440
Hey?
599
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:23,760
Well, are you going now?
600
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:26,960
Are you going?
601
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,400
Would you like me to?
602
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,320
It's not up to me, is it?
603
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:35,760
If you want me to go, Jamie, I can go.
604
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,640
You said in one of our previous sessions
that you had friends, Tommy and Ryan.
605
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,560
But that you wouldn't
consider yourself popular.
606
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,920
Yeah.
607
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,320
You said you were bullied.
The three of you were bullied.
608
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,959
People like you
love talking about bullying.
609
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,839
You said Tommy was called Round Pounds
610
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,279
because his mum
did her shopping at Poundland.
611
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:21,759
Yeah, but she doesn't.
612
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,319
And Ryan was called dumb.
613
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,640
Ryan is dumb.
614
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,759
That one was sort of true.
615
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,799
- The three of you felt ostracized.
- Big words coming out now.
616
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,999
You said sometimes
this would get physical.
617
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,279
People would spit on you
from classroom windows.
618
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,160
You'd be tripped up and pushed.
619
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,799
Yeah.
620
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,639
- You were called names, physically abused.
- No. I was just tripped up and spat on.
621
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,520
My question, Jamie, is
why do you have an Instagram account?
622
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:50,880
What?
623
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,160
- I... I need one.
- Why?
624
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,920
To look at other people's accounts.
625
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,080
You can't if you haven't got one.
626
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,280
Right. And you follow lots of women
on Instagram. Models.
627
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:04,920
Yeah.
628
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,399
You don't need to put photos up, though.
Why do you?
629
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,520
Put photos up of yourself, I mean?
630
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,520
I dunno. Am I not allowed?
631
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,200
Yeah.
632
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,559
Is it to prove bullies wrong by showing
the fun you have with Tommy and Ryan?
633
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,559
What? No.
634
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,559
To show the fun you
have with your family?
635
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,560
No way I'm putting anything up of them.
636
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,799
If you've seen that,
it's because my sister tagged me.
637
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,599
Because you think
someone might like one of your photos?
638
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,639
You might get into a conversation,
make a new friend, meet a girl?
639
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,680
What? No. What you on about?
640
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,440
Katie commented on your photos
on a number of different occasions.
641
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:48,560
Uh, yeah.
642
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,200
What are you doing?
643
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,040
- What... What's this?
- Budge up.
644
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,800
She wrote this.
645
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,359
No. Are... Are you allowed
to ask these questions?
646
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,879
- Has Dillon passed these questions fit?
- Yes.
647
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,000
He has. I'm allowed
to ask about intimacies, Jamie.
648
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,119
But if this makes you uncomfortable
or you have any questions,
649
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,360
there are people in this facility
that can help you. Okay?
650
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,680
Katie wrote this on your Facebook feed.
651
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,680
Facebook?
652
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,240
Instagram.
653
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,080
Are you all right?
654
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,280
You look a bit red.
655
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,560
Did I scare you when I shouted?
656
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,280
- She wrote this on your Instagram.
- I mean, I'm only 13.
657
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,800
I don't think I look that scary.
658
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,760
- Could you tell me what these emojis are?
- How embarrassing is that?
659
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:09,760
Getting scared of a 13-year-old.
660
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,280
Wow.
661
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,560
What do these emojis mean, Jamie?
662
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,880
What do the kidney beans mean?
They're kidney beans, right?
663
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,560
She's pretending like I'm part
of one of those truth groups.
664
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:32,720
What truth groups?
665
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,800
The ones that say
that women don't want us and don't care.
666
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,239
- Are you part of those?
- No.
667
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:42,799
But you know what they say?
668
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,440
Yeah, 'cause everyone
kept on going on about it.
669
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,400
Incel stuff. So I had a look,
but I didn't like it.
670
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,960
And was you being an incel
what she was saying with all of these?
671
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:57,920
Yeah.
672
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,240
Could you explain them all?
673
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,039
Uh... want love, won't get it.
674
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,639
My throat's killing.
675
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,399
Uh, red pill, exploding.
676
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,600
That's the same as the red pill.
677
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,480
And then that's an 80-20 thing.
678
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,000
What's an 80-20 thing?
679
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,040
Where 80% of women
are attracted to 20% of men.
680
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:37,720
But I do think
they're right about that, though.
681
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:44,480
And lots of people
liked her comments quite a lot.
682
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,600
Yeah, they thought it was funny.
683
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,080
You must have found that quite cruel.
684
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,519
I suppose.
685
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,480
Did she do this to anyone else?
686
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,200
- No.
- Well, why did she do it to you?
687
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:05,840
Because... Because I'm ugly.
688
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,720
- You think that's why she did it to you?
- Well, I'm the ugliest, I suppose, so...
689
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:13,840
Did you ever call her on it?
690
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:15,960
- Yeah.
- What did you say?
691
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,239
I don't know.
"I'm not what you say I am," or...
692
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:22,640
And what did she say?
693
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,520
She just...
694
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,320
She just smiled and said, "Okay,"
and walked away.
695
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:35,479
And you never thought to tell anyone?
696
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,159
- It's a bit late for that now.
- That just must have hurt.
697
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,320
I didn't kill her.
698
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,359
You think I did because you've seen the
video. You can't trust videos anymore.
699
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:45,599
It's all fake news.
700
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,760
- I'm not here to judge.
- I didn't kill her.
701
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,559
She was a bitch. Even you can see that.
702
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,680
I should've killed her,
but I didn't. I just...
703
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,720
All... All I did...
704
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:00,480
All I did was...
705
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:07,599
Look at ya.
706
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,280
All hopeful, like I'm gonna say
something important.
707
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:16,560
All I did...
708
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,000
I did ask her out... after the photo.
709
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,360
I went round and said I was sorry
that they'd done that to her.
710
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,080
Showing everyone her tits. Her chest.
711
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,040
And I wanted to know
if she'd come to the fair with me.
712
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,800
You know, I just thought
she might be weak, or that...
713
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,240
I just thought she might be weak, so...
714
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,239
'Cause everyone was calling her slag,
715
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:45,239
you know, or flat or whatever,
716
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:47,760
so I thought
when she was, like, that, weak,
717
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,840
she might... she might like me.
718
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,519
It's clever, don't you think?
719
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,080
To ask her out
when everyone else didn't like her?
720
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,359
Well, I went round
and said I was sorry and everything.
721
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,120
That Fidget was a wanker.
722
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:06,200
And I said I'd take her
to the fair if she liked.
723
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,960
Her weakness made her more gettable,
was your theory?
724
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,000
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
725
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,960
I thought you said you didn't like her.
726
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,840
Uh, she's flat. That's a fact.
But I didn't mind that. That's okay.
727
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,880
I wore my best tracksuit
I could find, and...
728
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,039
I don't even know why I'm telling you
all this, but I just said,
729
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,759
"You wanna come to the fair?"
730
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,080
And what did she say?
731
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,520
She just...
732
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,920
She just laughed
and said, "Oh, I'm not that desperate."
733
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,720
And the emoji messages came after that?
734
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:52,720
Uh, yeah.
735
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:57,199
She was, let's say, attacking you
for presuming you could ask her out?
736
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,440
- Your words.
- You think they're unfair?
737
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,600
You think she's a bitch, right?
738
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,160
Doing all that.
739
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,800
You think she's a bullying bitch.
740
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,519
She was a bullying bitch, right?
741
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,999
But that's the thing, you see?
742
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,200
That night, I didn't touch her.
743
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:21,960
I could've touched her,
but I didn't. I just...
744
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,560
I had a knife.
She was scared. But I didn't do that.
745
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,720
I could have touched any part of her body.
I really wanted to, but I didn't. I just...
746
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,000
Most boys would've touched her.
747
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:41,720
So that makes me better.
748
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:47,440
Don't you think?
749
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,959
I didn't... I didn't mean any of that.
I'm just tired.
750
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,599
I'm talking too much.
I'm tired. I'm just...
751
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,040
I'm so, so tired.
752
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:36,879
I didn't kill her.
753
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,280
Jamie, do you understand what death is?
754
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,440
- What?
- Do you understand what death is?
755
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:44,519
Yeah.
756
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,079
You understand that Katie's gone
and she can't come back?
757
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:48,280
I didn't do it.
758
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,839
That whatever claims
you make as to her character...
759
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,200
- I didn't mean she was a bitch.
- Whatever claims you make, she's gone.
760
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:56,519
That whoever did kill her,
761
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,240
they extinguished the possibility
of her future life.
762
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,999
I didn't mean to be mean about her.
She just did...
763
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,360
- Jamie, listen. Do you understand?
- She just didn't like me.
764
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,040
Yeah, I'm not dumb.
765
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,400
- Do you understand that murder is a crime?
- Yeah.
766
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,319
You understand that if you're found
guilty, you'll be held in detention?
767
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,240
- Who doesn't know that?
- Understand who will make the decision?
768
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,360
- Judge. Jury.
- Okay.
769
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:35,640
Jamie, this is our last session.
770
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:37,799
What?
771
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,839
- What I would encourage you to...
- No. Why?
772
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,719
Take advantage of any mental health
services that are offered.
773
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:44,679
- No. Why?
- I think you'll benefit.
774
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,119
- No, I won't.
- Well, that's just what I think.
775
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,639
And then you come back. You see me?
776
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,840
Unfortunately, I'm needed elsewhere.
777
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,439
- It's just fucking done, is it? All of it?
- I hope you take what I said seriously.
778
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,599
- Thanks for your time. I'll ask Frank...
- Thanks for my time?
779
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,279
- Frank! I'm grateful that you've spoken...
- You think I'm being honest?
780
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,399
- Are you gonna tell the judge?
- I think you've spoken with honesty.
781
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,599
But all I'm advising the judge on
is your understanding.
782
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,760
My understanding, yes.
783
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,719
- It doesn't seem like a proper goodbye.
- It is.
784
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,879
- It doesn't seem like one.
- That's enough.
785
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,359
No, we haven't finished.
786
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,639
- We have. Thank you, Frank.
- No, no!
787
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,160
Can I ask you something?
788
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:25,800
Yes.
789
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,160
Do you like me?
790
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,279
- I was here as a professional, Jamie.
- Don't you think like that, then?
791
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,319
- My job was to assess you.
- Because I like you.
792
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,839
Not like that.
Not fancying you. Just as a person.
793
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,679
- Okay, son, come on.
- No, don't you even like me a bit?
794
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,560
What did you think about me, then?
795
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,679
- Decide, come on!
- This was really useful.
796
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,959
Don't you go fucking telling them
what I did!
797
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,519
- Don't you dare!
- Whoa, come on.
798
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,799
Don't you go fucking...
Get the fuck off me! Don't you dare!
799
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,119
- Hey!
- Fuck!
800
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,839
- Come on. Jamie, man, please.
- Don't you even like me a bit?
801
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:10,999
Okay? Jamie, come on.
802
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,079
- What did you think about me, then?
- Okay.
803
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,800
Just tell my dad I'm all right!
804
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,199
- Tell him that I'm okay!
- Jamie, you're hurting yourself.
805
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,519
- Tell him that I'm all right!
- Calm down.
806
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:21,839
Tell him I'm all right!
807
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,679
Tell him I'm okay, please!
808
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,400
Oh God.