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The story of the hoist is the

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story of sex, of gay sex, male

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on male fetish sex. I'm trying

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to think of a sex act that

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doesn't go on here. You can hear

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people screaming sometimes.

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Yeah, you hear spanking and

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slapping. Whipping, depends on

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what you're into I guess. Water

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sports, fisting, fucking, nipple

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play, cobbled ball torture.

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Bootlicking. Bondage. What was

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that word? Bootlicking. Yeah,

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it's kind of all there isn't it?

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Humiliation. The only thing we

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can't do, or I can't do, is sick

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our sex. That's because it's

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outside.

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Hi, I'm Ankat Kurtz and I am

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from the hoist in London. I've

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been running this bar for the

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last many many years. We opened

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in 1996. I don't want anything

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domestic in here. So if you have

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it at home, chances are you

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won't find it in the hoist. The

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hoist is about escapism. It's

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about basically having a fantasy

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night out. And so I'm very sort

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of, what should I say,

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protective towards this. Welcome

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to the hoist. When they don't

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arrive in fetish gear, they want

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to change. They want to change

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into their rubber or their

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leather or their skin gear.

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During the week I'm in my suit

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and tie going to work. So I

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can't really wear anything like

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that to work. I've met a lot of

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Americans here who are most of

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the time shocked that a place

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like this exists. And I've got

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to tell them, man, you moved to

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London. And this is the sort of

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the reception area and the pay

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point and the coat check. It's a

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big coat check. We have sort of

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room for 400 plus coats. I'm

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Paul. I work at the hoist. I do

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other things but primarily

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working at the hoist behind the

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bar. Kind of part time but I

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enjoy doing my nights here. This

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is just your basic shit, you

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know, for getting the punters

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in. Setting up at the moment

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Friday night, just doing shit

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that I normally do. Simplest

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they can do when we do things.

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They keep it as simple as

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possible. I give them a bag,

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they go away, change their

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stuff, come back, fix their

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money and they go away. Just

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shoes and a smile. That's all

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you need. Oh yeah, I've had a

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few action shots underneath the

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counter there while I've been

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sorting the guys. A few guys

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wanting to suck a cock. So

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helping yourself to the punters.

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That's one of the good things

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about working here. Chatting up

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the good boys, you know, and the

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dirty boys.

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And now we're going into the

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main bar. So the first thing you

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see when you enter the bar is

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sort of this sort of iron cage.

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And that instantly gets the

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message across what kind of bar

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this is. Feel this cage. It is

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bolted to the floor and you can

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tie somebody up to this. And you

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can have hopefully a good time

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with it all.

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Wow.

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Lots of things go on here.

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Pretty much as long as you're

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not hurting anybody, and as long

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as what you do with somebody is

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consensual and preferably safe

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as well, then I think the hoist

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is a good time for everybody.

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There's nothing wrong with this.

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Obviously I don't tell all my

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friends I come here because I

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think some people are rushed to

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judge and they may think

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something different if you tell

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them you come to the hoist. So I

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only tell a select few of

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friends that I come here. And

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obviously some people I don't

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tell because it's really none of

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their business.

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This is our big wet area. It's,

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I understand, the biggest wet

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area in the world. I believe

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this is part of the reason why

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it's sort of a very sexy,

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stimulating environment to be in

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because you see this stuff. It

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smells good, it feels good, it

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looks good. This is our famous

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Barberlin, which is the logo and

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the sign, which has been made

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out of recycled 1970s neon in

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order to sort of give it this

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sort of trashy porn feel.

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And we go into this sort of back

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area now of Barberlin. It's sort

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of, if you want some privacy and

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you want to disappear with your

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man, then you can sort of go

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into one of these cubicles or

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you can sort of go further in

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the back and come around here,

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step up a little mezzanine,

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which we had made especially for

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this part of the bar. And

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especially on Saturday nights

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when Barberlin is open, this

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area is very popular. And again,

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you can see sort of there is

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water dripping from the walls.

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We are in a railway house after

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all. I wouldn't say dirty, but

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quite a sort of rough sort of

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industrial, dank smell in here.

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Okay, my name is Marco. I was

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one of the early barmen who

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worked here. My name is Andy.

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I've been connected with the

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venue for a number of years,

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well many years, ever since it

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started. My name is Leather Wolf

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and I'm Mr. Robert Hoist, 2012.

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I'm Kiel Keral Kras and I'm

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former Mr. Leather UK and

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current Mr. Barber. My name is

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Gary and I don't have any titles

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at all yet. My name is John

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Pendle. I'm a kinky individual

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from London, United Kingdom.

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I've been coming to the hoist

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ever since it opened. And in

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2003 I won International Mr.

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Leather in Chicago, making me

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the only British person ever to

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have won it. Hi, I'm David. I

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live in London. And I've come to

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this place on and off since it

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first opened. I used to like

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going what we call going

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cottaging. And I used to hook up

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with this guy who was a lot

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older one summer. And yeah, he

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liked leather. He liked getting

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naked in public. He liked seeing

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me strip. I liked the feel of

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it. I liked the smell of it. I

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liked the smell of him. It's

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very, it's all the senses. Guys

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go cruising. They go cruising

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lay-bys, pick up lorry drivers.

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They go cruising in parks. And

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of course in the old days,

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cottaging, we used to go

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cruising in public toilets. I'm

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too young.

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Not too young to remember any of

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that. There's an app to the

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hoist. You just remember iPads,

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don't you? And apps. Too young.

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Where did these ideas of leather

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come into your head? I would say

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I had good instincts. I always

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sort of, I remember for example

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as a kid, when I played football

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and I was terrible at this. The

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goalie, the guy that the

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goalkeeper had to sort of sexy

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-worn leather gloves in order to

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catch the ball. I thought, oh

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these are sort of, I like the

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texture and I like the look of

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this. So this is probably the

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earliest memory I have to sort

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of be attracted to leather. At

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the age of four and a quarter, I

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watched an episode of Doctor Who

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called Doctor Who and the

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Pyramids of Mars, which was Tom

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Baker and Elizabeth Slayden. And

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the alien was pretending to be

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an Egyptian god in English

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countryside. And he built a

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pyramid which was patrolled by

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robot mummies. And the mummies

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were very big, broad-shouldered,

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male, masculine, deep-chested.

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And if they found a trespassing

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wayward human, a pair of robot

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mummies would come up either

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side with the chests at neck

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level and squeeze and squeeze

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and squeeze and suffocate them

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between two big chests. And then

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stand back and the human would

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drop to the floor dead. And at

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four and a quarter I can

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remember thinking, I want that

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to happen to me. I think I must

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have been from about ten or

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eleven years of age, quite

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young. I think it's from the

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childhood as well. And I

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remember wearing my father's

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motorbike jackets, leather

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jackets. And I meant fetishist

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leather, but I enjoy other

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fetishists as well. I was over

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forty before I bought my first

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piece of leather and really

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showed any interest in it. And

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then I saw a movie in the very

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early 1980s called Cruising. And

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I thought, wow, this is good

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stuff, this is sexy stuff, this

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is what I like to look at. But I

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was of course very careful about

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who to talk about this, because

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I thought I was the only one who

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liked these imageries and the

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power play and stuff like that.

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So I would say watching

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Cruising, the movie, was quite

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an important thing for me to

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understand what was going on

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inside my head and why I liked

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what I liked. It just clicks

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into a different side. And yeah,

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it's very, very sexual. I just

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think guys look great in leather

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and rubber. Lots of straight

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couples who go by will stop and

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just ask you what type of club

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is it. They like what you're

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wearing and they're curious.

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They might not admit it, but

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they are curious. And sometimes

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they want to photograph you.

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Absolutely, yeah. I think for a

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lot of people, the way we dress

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is a fantasy for them. Come

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alive. Yeah, that sure is. I

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mean, you guys like the way

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you're dressed, right?

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Absolutely, yeah. It's a bit

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hot, but yeah. And this is sort

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of a rather unglamorous part of

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00:11:19,066 --> 00:11:21,066
the club, which is very fun. So

275
00:11:21,066 --> 00:11:22,766
we have a message board for the

276
00:11:22,766 --> 00:11:25,833
community. This is the old

277
00:11:25,833 --> 00:11:28,233
toilet area, which is like

278
00:11:28,233 --> 00:11:30,800
toilet areas are. We have a

279
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,200
piece of chalk and the customers

280
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,133
can write on these blackboards

281
00:11:35,133 --> 00:11:36,966
or, as you can see, on the wall,

282
00:11:37,666 --> 00:11:38,833
whatever they want to write.

283
00:11:39,066 --> 00:11:40,466
Some put their phone numbers

284
00:11:40,466 --> 00:11:42,566
down and what they're into if

285
00:11:42,566 --> 00:11:44,133
they want to meet somebody. My

286
00:11:44,133 --> 00:11:47,233
favorite was once I walked in

287
00:11:47,233 --> 00:11:48,866
here and there was a message on

288
00:11:48,866 --> 00:11:50,733
one of these little blackboards

289
00:11:50,733 --> 00:11:54,933
saying, looking for four tops

290
00:11:54,933 --> 00:11:56,666
tonight to tie me up in the

291
00:11:56,666 --> 00:11:58,966
woods. And somebody else wrote

292
00:11:58,966 --> 00:12:01,733
underneath, I'm very sorry, the

293
00:12:01,733 --> 00:12:03,233
four tops are booked. Will the

294
00:12:03,233 --> 00:12:06,733
churals do? And so it was sort

295
00:12:06,733 --> 00:12:09,933
of priceless things here. So the

296
00:12:09,933 --> 00:12:11,233
guys that come here are quite

297
00:12:11,233 --> 00:12:14,466
funny and witty. And this is the

298
00:12:14,466 --> 00:12:17,300
urinal area. We sometimes have

299
00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:19,533
to sort of keep an eye on this

300
00:12:19,533 --> 00:12:21,033
because quite often guys,

301
00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:22,733
especially on the rubber

302
00:12:22,733 --> 00:12:24,666
weekends, like to come in here

303
00:12:24,666 --> 00:12:27,766
and they come down and what

304
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:30,133
they're trying to do is they are

305
00:12:30,133 --> 00:12:33,666
trying to unscrew these drains

306
00:12:33,666 --> 00:12:37,266
in order then to sort of put

307
00:12:37,266 --> 00:12:39,600
their mouth underneath these

308
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,833
urinals. Which of course is not

309
00:12:42,833 --> 00:12:44,166
a good idea because other

310
00:12:44,166 --> 00:12:45,900
customers and other men want to

311
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:48,200
use these urinals and so you

312
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,000
always have to keep an eye on

313
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,866
striking a balance about being

314
00:12:51,866 --> 00:12:54,233
sort of sexy at the same time

315
00:12:54,233 --> 00:12:56,566
but also being respectful

316
00:12:56,566 --> 00:13:01,166
towards other men. The rest of

317
00:13:01,166 --> 00:13:05,200
my life is a very normal life. I

318
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,333
think when the place first

319
00:13:06,333 --> 00:13:07,466
opened I found it quite

320
00:13:07,466 --> 00:13:09,533
intimidating. My own

321
00:13:09,533 --> 00:13:12,166
insecurities as a gay guy on a

322
00:13:12,166 --> 00:13:15,633
scene like all of us have. But

323
00:13:15,633 --> 00:13:17,500
yeah, I felt intimidated and

324
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:20,666
excited about it. I was

325
00:13:20,666 --> 00:13:23,166
absolutely petrified, absolutely

326
00:13:23,166 --> 00:13:25,800
petrified. I just came in,

327
00:13:25,966 --> 00:13:27,766
bought a drink and sat in a

328
00:13:27,766 --> 00:13:30,833
corner with a magazine and tried

329
00:13:30,833 --> 00:13:32,366
to look at no one. Really?

330
00:13:32,566 --> 00:13:33,933
Absolutely. And what was going

331
00:13:33,933 --> 00:13:35,633
on here? I had no idea because I

332
00:13:35,633 --> 00:13:38,200
kept my head down and hoped that

333
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,566
no one would come to see me or

334
00:13:39,566 --> 00:13:41,833
talk to me and vice versa. I

335
00:13:41,833 --> 00:13:44,300
thought that was my first

336
00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:45,966
triumph and then maybe later on

337
00:13:45,966 --> 00:13:47,700
I'd take the next step to

338
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:49,533
actually talk to someone. I was

339
00:13:49,533 --> 00:13:52,233
quite nervous. And what

340
00:13:52,233 --> 00:13:54,533
happened? Were you sweating like

341
00:13:54,533 --> 00:13:57,666
me? I was, I discovered I knew

342
00:13:57,666 --> 00:14:01,033
worms I can say. I didn't have

343
00:14:01,033 --> 00:14:02,833
much gear and the only thing I

344
00:14:02,833 --> 00:14:04,233
could muster up was a pair of

345
00:14:04,233 --> 00:14:08,566
boots and some army trousers and

346
00:14:08,566 --> 00:14:10,433
a t-shirt and that was it. And

347
00:14:10,433 --> 00:14:11,700
it wasn't until I actually had a

348
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:13,333
job and could afford to buy some

349
00:14:13,333 --> 00:14:14,866
leather trousers that probably

350
00:14:14,866 --> 00:14:15,800
that's when I started to feel

351
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,233
comfortable to come here. Well

352
00:14:18,233 --> 00:14:19,966
my first night I tried to turn

353
00:14:19,966 --> 00:14:21,833
around and leave because I'd

354
00:14:21,833 --> 00:14:22,866
never been in such an

355
00:14:22,866 --> 00:14:24,566
environment before where here

356
00:14:24,566 --> 00:14:26,133
was everybody that I ever wanted

357
00:14:26,133 --> 00:14:28,766
but I didn't think I fit in. I

358
00:14:28,766 --> 00:14:31,533
had very low self-esteem. I had

359
00:14:31,533 --> 00:14:33,933
a pair of cut-off Levi shorts. I

360
00:14:33,933 --> 00:14:35,433
think maybe a pair of leather

361
00:14:35,433 --> 00:14:36,866
braces. We call them in the UK

362
00:14:36,866 --> 00:14:38,733
suspenders in America. But it

363
00:14:38,733 --> 00:14:39,966
really wasn't a lot and then you

364
00:14:39,966 --> 00:14:41,633
walk into a sea of black

365
00:14:41,633 --> 00:14:43,566
leather, knee-high boots, the

366
00:14:43,566 --> 00:14:45,533
full language jackets and feel

367
00:14:45,533 --> 00:14:48,033
like I want to be here but I

368
00:14:48,033 --> 00:14:49,466
don't deserve to be here. So I

369
00:14:49,466 --> 00:14:51,033
tried to turn around and leave

370
00:14:51,033 --> 00:14:52,633
and somebody caught me on that

371
00:14:52,633 --> 00:14:54,033
first night and said where are

372
00:14:54,033 --> 00:14:55,933
you going? And I said I don't

373
00:14:55,933 --> 00:14:58,733
know what I'm doing. I'm

374
00:14:58,733 --> 00:15:00,666
fleeing. He said you have to

375
00:15:00,666 --> 00:15:01,700
stand as if you've left your

376
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,166
coat hanger inside your shirt.

377
00:15:03,966 --> 00:15:05,866
And have an open posture so you

378
00:15:05,866 --> 00:15:07,166
don't fold your arms. You have

379
00:15:07,166 --> 00:15:08,766
your arms out. And the higher

380
00:15:08,766 --> 00:15:10,500
you hold a pint the more nervous

381
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:11,633
you are because you're hiding

382
00:15:11,633 --> 00:15:13,033
behind it physically so you drop

383
00:15:13,033 --> 00:15:14,700
it down. The guys who stand

384
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:16,066
against the wall with a pint on

385
00:15:16,066 --> 00:15:17,600
a leg, they're the ones who seem

386
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,533
to be the most confident. So

387
00:15:19,533 --> 00:15:21,966
hold the pint low, have an open

388
00:15:21,966 --> 00:15:24,333
posture, look towards the middle

389
00:15:24,333 --> 00:15:26,300
of the club, have a slight

390
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,366
smile, eyes wide, stand with the

391
00:15:29,366 --> 00:15:31,133
coat hanger in the back. And he

392
00:15:31,133 --> 00:15:32,633
basically pimped me.

393
00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:38,466
And those stairs that we're

394
00:15:38,466 --> 00:15:40,133
walking up now have been sort of

395
00:15:40,133 --> 00:15:42,000
made on the premises by a

396
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,966
blacksmith from Yorkshire. This

397
00:15:44,966 --> 00:15:47,833
is all sort of solid metal. We

398
00:15:47,833 --> 00:15:50,033
have the famous hoist. After all

399
00:15:50,033 --> 00:15:51,833
the club is called the hoist.

400
00:15:52,133 --> 00:15:54,666
And this is the original hoist.

401
00:15:55,866 --> 00:15:57,633
We like the look of it and we

402
00:15:57,633 --> 00:15:58,933
thought this is the perfect name

403
00:15:58,933 --> 00:16:01,033
for a club. It is still in use.

404
00:16:01,733 --> 00:16:03,233
We wanted the club to be real.

405
00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:06,466
We wanted the club to be not

406
00:16:06,466 --> 00:16:09,433
pretentious or showy. We wanted

407
00:16:09,433 --> 00:16:13,566
it to be the real thing. You

408
00:16:13,566 --> 00:16:18,000
have stuff like slings which you

409
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,066
do have in fetish clubs. There

410
00:16:20,066 --> 00:16:21,500
are quite a few slings around

411
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:22,233
here.

412
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:43,800
Yes, yes.

413
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,966
If you think about it, this

414
00:16:54,966 --> 00:16:56,666
sling has been up here for 18

415
00:16:56,666 --> 00:16:58,933
years and it's still in pretty

416
00:16:58,933 --> 00:17:00,833
good nick. So you can see this

417
00:17:00,833 --> 00:17:04,033
is sort of quality stuff. This

418
00:17:04,033 --> 00:17:05,833
is the original sign that was

419
00:17:05,833 --> 00:17:09,833
outside on the street. Since we

420
00:17:09,833 --> 00:17:12,466
opened I kept telling the guys

421
00:17:12,466 --> 00:17:14,166
that sort of work with me here

422
00:17:14,166 --> 00:17:16,533
that we need to have a very sort

423
00:17:16,533 --> 00:17:18,166
of strict order in terms of

424
00:17:18,166 --> 00:17:19,933
lights. So I want the lights

425
00:17:19,933 --> 00:17:21,966
straight down. I don't want them

426
00:17:21,966 --> 00:17:23,133
to go left, right and centre

427
00:17:23,133 --> 00:17:24,333
because we are not a flashy

428
00:17:24,333 --> 00:17:26,300
dance club. We are a male only

429
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:28,533
fetish club. And so forever in

430
00:17:28,533 --> 00:17:30,533
the last sort of many, many

431
00:17:30,533 --> 00:17:32,833
years I go around and this is

432
00:17:32,833 --> 00:17:34,933
before we open and I straighten

433
00:17:34,933 --> 00:17:36,466
every single light in this club.

434
00:17:36,466 --> 00:17:38,033
Like for example this one is

435
00:17:38,033 --> 00:17:40,400
skew now. So I go before we open

436
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:41,866
the doors to the public, I go

437
00:17:41,866 --> 00:17:44,033
around very obsessively, very

438
00:17:44,033 --> 00:17:45,766
nerdy and straighten every

439
00:17:45,766 --> 00:17:47,633
single light in this club. So

440
00:17:47,633 --> 00:17:49,933
because I feel they need to come

441
00:17:49,933 --> 00:17:52,733
down in a very strict sort of

442
00:17:52,733 --> 00:17:53,966
straight sort of order.

443
00:18:26,366 --> 00:18:29,033
It's sort of a little secret

444
00:18:29,033 --> 00:18:34,766
door which you see here. It's

445
00:18:34,766 --> 00:18:37,833
cordoned off, it's padlocked and

446
00:18:37,833 --> 00:18:39,900
so the public can't get to this.

447
00:18:40,233 --> 00:18:41,933
But this is the place that we

448
00:18:41,933 --> 00:18:43,900
use for special private

449
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:45,566
invitation only parties.

450
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,866
It's quite dark and it's very

451
00:18:52,866 --> 00:18:53,400
rough.

452
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:59,266
Whatever goes on here will stay

453
00:18:59,266 --> 00:19:01,766
here because it's private.

454
00:19:16,733 --> 00:19:19,366
This is an original piece from

455
00:19:19,366 --> 00:19:22,333
the original opening days of the

456
00:19:22,333 --> 00:19:23,566
hoist. It's our boot shine

457
00:19:23,566 --> 00:19:25,733
chair. Every Friday and Saturday

458
00:19:25,733 --> 00:19:27,666
night we have a boot shine here

459
00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:30,866
on site that is basically here

460
00:19:30,866 --> 00:19:34,000
to polish the boots of the men

461
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,033
that come here. And the proceeds

462
00:19:37,033 --> 00:19:40,166
of this will go to charity. The

463
00:19:40,166 --> 00:19:41,400
hoist is supporting various

464
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,766
charities. Amongst others it's a

465
00:19:44,766 --> 00:19:46,900
charity called Food Train. We

466
00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:50,766
also support Peter Tatchell who

467
00:19:50,766 --> 00:19:52,666
is quite a well-known and

468
00:19:52,666 --> 00:19:55,233
important gay activist. All

469
00:19:55,233 --> 00:19:56,533
campaign stuff and it's all

470
00:19:56,533 --> 00:19:58,500
hidden in there. It's great

471
00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:01,566
actually. It's not very nice to

472
00:20:01,566 --> 00:20:03,766
live here too. It's horrible but

473
00:20:03,766 --> 00:20:05,866
I have to make the best of it.

474
00:20:08,933 --> 00:20:10,633
I'm Peter Tatchell, human rights

475
00:20:10,633 --> 00:20:12,533
campaigner. Gay male

476
00:20:12,533 --> 00:20:14,666
homosexuality was only finally

477
00:20:14,666 --> 00:20:17,266
decriminalised in Britain in

478
00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:21,300
2003. Up until that point there

479
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:24,166
had been a criminalisation of

480
00:20:24,166 --> 00:20:26,233
almost every aspect of gay male

481
00:20:26,233 --> 00:20:30,033
life. Until 1967, male

482
00:20:30,033 --> 00:20:31,233
homosexuality had been

483
00:20:31,233 --> 00:20:33,066
criminalised with a maximum

484
00:20:33,066 --> 00:20:35,633
penalty of life imprisonment. In

485
00:20:35,633 --> 00:20:38,633
that year the maximum penalty

486
00:20:38,633 --> 00:20:41,633
was reduced to five years and

487
00:20:41,633 --> 00:20:43,866
same-sex relations were in

488
00:20:43,866 --> 00:20:45,366
certain narrow defined

489
00:20:45,366 --> 00:20:47,033
circumstances decriminalised.

490
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,266
Not legalised but

491
00:20:49,266 --> 00:20:51,700
decriminalised. Sex between men

492
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:53,933
was not prosecuted although it

493
00:20:53,933 --> 00:20:55,500
remained on the subject books.

494
00:20:56,633 --> 00:20:58,933
Providing both men were aged 21

495
00:20:58,933 --> 00:21:02,766
or over and providing the sexual

496
00:21:02,766 --> 00:21:05,466
act took place in the privacy of

497
00:21:05,466 --> 00:21:07,833
their own home behind locked

498
00:21:07,833 --> 00:21:10,066
doors and windows with the

499
00:21:10,066 --> 00:21:12,133
curtains drawn and with no other

500
00:21:12,133 --> 00:21:13,866
person present in any part of

501
00:21:13,866 --> 00:21:16,466
the house. So you can see it was

502
00:21:16,466 --> 00:21:19,600
a very narrow, limited, strict

503
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,566
decriminalisation. The age of

504
00:21:21,566 --> 00:21:24,166
consent was set at 21 compared

505
00:21:24,166 --> 00:21:27,566
to 16 for heterosexual men and

506
00:21:27,566 --> 00:21:29,300
women. So there's a five year

507
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,266
gap. In other words young gay

508
00:21:32,266 --> 00:21:35,533
men aged 16 to 21 were still

509
00:21:35,533 --> 00:21:37,600
treated as criminals as were

510
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,866
their partners. Almost every

511
00:21:39,866 --> 00:21:41,833
other aspect of gay life

512
00:21:41,833 --> 00:21:44,433
remained illegal. So for example

513
00:21:44,433 --> 00:21:47,500
under the anti-soliciting laws

514
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:50,400
it was illegal and immoral for

515
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,433
two men to meet in a public

516
00:21:52,433 --> 00:21:54,433
place with the intention of

517
00:21:54,433 --> 00:21:56,166
arranging a sexual assignation.

518
00:21:56,533 --> 00:21:58,500
So gay cruising was completely

519
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,166
unlawful and punishable by up to

520
00:22:01,166 --> 00:22:03,833
two years jail. It was also

521
00:22:03,833 --> 00:22:06,366
illegal to procure a homosexual

522
00:22:06,366 --> 00:22:08,166
act in certain circumstances

523
00:22:08,166 --> 00:22:10,233
even to procure a lawful

524
00:22:10,233 --> 00:22:12,366
homosexual act. Procuring meant

525
00:22:12,366 --> 00:22:13,833
anything like encouraging,

526
00:22:14,366 --> 00:22:16,633
inviting, aiding and abetting or

527
00:22:16,633 --> 00:22:18,900
facilitating a homosexual act.

528
00:22:19,366 --> 00:22:22,433
In other words there was a

529
00:22:22,433 --> 00:22:24,800
limited decriminalisation but

530
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,833
for most gay people the law

531
00:22:27,833 --> 00:22:30,433
remained very intrusive and

532
00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:35,300
threatening. In 1989 my research

533
00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:39,533
discovered that more gay men

534
00:22:39,533 --> 00:22:41,766
were being arrested and

535
00:22:41,766 --> 00:22:45,200
convicted of the main anti-gay

536
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,166
offence, so called gross

537
00:22:47,166 --> 00:22:52,633
indecency, than in 1966, the

538
00:22:52,633 --> 00:22:54,033
year before decriminalisation.

539
00:22:54,933 --> 00:22:57,500
That was absolutely shocking and

540
00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,033
astonishing to discover. I also

541
00:23:00,033 --> 00:23:01,466
discovered that the police were

542
00:23:01,466 --> 00:23:03,566
using a range of other laws to

543
00:23:03,566 --> 00:23:05,500
prosecute gay and bisexual men.

544
00:23:05,933 --> 00:23:08,433
For example the law against anal

545
00:23:08,433 --> 00:23:11,966
sex, so called buggery law, the

546
00:23:11,966 --> 00:23:13,833
police used the law about raging

547
00:23:13,833 --> 00:23:16,433
public decency, they used the

548
00:23:16,433 --> 00:23:18,066
indecency clause of the town and

549
00:23:18,066 --> 00:23:20,933
police clauses act of 1847, they

550
00:23:20,933 --> 00:23:23,133
used the indecency provisions of

551
00:23:23,133 --> 00:23:26,033
the 1860 Ecclesiastical Courts

552
00:23:26,033 --> 00:23:27,833
Jurisdiction Act, which was

553
00:23:27,833 --> 00:23:29,733
formerly part of church law

554
00:23:29,733 --> 00:23:32,000
dating back to the 16th century.

555
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,600
A whole vast range of laws

556
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,800
including public order laws that

557
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,366
were brought in to combat

558
00:23:38,366 --> 00:23:40,533
football colonialism and street

559
00:23:40,533 --> 00:23:42,666
rioting were used to prosecute

560
00:23:42,666 --> 00:23:45,000
gay and bisexual men. Same sex

561
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,800
couples could be arrested for

562
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,933
merely kissing, cuddling and

563
00:23:48,933 --> 00:23:50,966
holding hands in the street. So

564
00:23:50,966 --> 00:23:53,733
you get a sense, this really was

565
00:23:53,733 --> 00:23:55,933
a very limited decriminalisation

566
00:23:55,933 --> 00:23:58,966
and it's astonishing that the

567
00:23:58,966 --> 00:24:00,866
law that sent Oscar Wilde to

568
00:24:00,866 --> 00:24:05,233
prison in 1895, the so called

569
00:24:05,233 --> 00:24:07,900
gross indecency law, was only

570
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:13,566
repealed in 2003. Likewise the

571
00:24:13,566 --> 00:24:15,733
law against anal sex, other

572
00:24:15,733 --> 00:24:17,766
people may call it sodomy, which

573
00:24:17,766 --> 00:24:22,200
was passed in 1533 during the

574
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,633
reign of King Henry VIII, was

575
00:24:24,633 --> 00:24:30,133
only repealed in 2003. So the

576
00:24:30,133 --> 00:24:31,466
ending of criminalisation is

577
00:24:31,466 --> 00:24:32,766
actually a very recent

578
00:24:32,766 --> 00:24:35,466
phenomenon in modern British

579
00:24:35,466 --> 00:24:39,766
history. This is the original

580
00:24:39,766 --> 00:24:41,500
poster that we did for the hoist

581
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:43,833
and we got a German guy from

582
00:24:43,833 --> 00:24:46,500
Hamburg to design it and I was

583
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:47,866
presented with this when we

584
00:24:47,866 --> 00:24:50,766
first opened on the 21st of

585
00:24:50,766 --> 00:24:58,000
March 1996 by Kurt and Guy who

586
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,500
along with me had sort of

587
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:01,733
started the club off. Coming

588
00:25:01,733 --> 00:25:03,033
originally from Hamburg in

589
00:25:03,033 --> 00:25:04,866
Germany I was used to sort of a

590
00:25:04,866 --> 00:25:07,133
different style bar. It was, and

591
00:25:07,133 --> 00:25:11,600
I thought London could do with a

592
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,166
sort of European continental

593
00:25:14,166 --> 00:25:18,600
style, German feel, gay men only

594
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,633
fetish bar. I was talking to

595
00:25:21,633 --> 00:25:23,266
friends about this with my

596
00:25:23,266 --> 00:25:24,333
partner at the time and

597
00:25:24,333 --> 00:25:25,533
everybody was saying oh yeah

598
00:25:25,533 --> 00:25:27,033
it's terrible here, we can't go

599
00:25:27,033 --> 00:25:28,133
anywhere and there's nowhere to

600
00:25:28,133 --> 00:25:29,733
go and nobody did anything about

601
00:25:29,733 --> 00:25:33,066
it. So my partner at the time,

602
00:25:33,433 --> 00:25:35,600
Guy and myself decided one

603
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,166
evening, well if nobody does

604
00:25:39,166 --> 00:25:40,766
anything nothing will get better

605
00:25:40,766 --> 00:25:42,766
so I thought one evening we

606
00:25:42,766 --> 00:25:44,133
thought let's do it ourselves.

607
00:25:44,966 --> 00:25:47,766
My name's Guy Owen and I'm the

608
00:25:47,766 --> 00:25:48,933
managing director of the Hoist

609
00:25:48,933 --> 00:25:51,666
Limited. How did I meet Kurt? We

610
00:25:51,666 --> 00:25:57,933
met in 1992, we met in a bar in

611
00:25:57,933 --> 00:26:00,100
London and we just hit it off

612
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,666
very well, we just got on very

613
00:26:02,666 --> 00:26:06,800
well. Yeah, so we just got on

614
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,633
very well. I remember from my

615
00:26:09,633 --> 00:26:12,600
time in Hamburg that the best

616
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,466
places for gay male fetish bars

617
00:26:15,466 --> 00:26:17,333
are industrial places. They can

618
00:26:17,333 --> 00:26:19,333
be either power stations, which

619
00:26:19,333 --> 00:26:20,433
of course is not realistic

620
00:26:20,433 --> 00:26:21,700
because they are too big and too

621
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,433
expensive, or railway arches or

622
00:26:25,433 --> 00:26:28,866
car mechanic places, stuff that

623
00:26:28,866 --> 00:26:30,833
feel a bit so gritty and dirty

624
00:26:30,833 --> 00:26:33,900
and rough. Kurt and I visited

625
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:35,633
New York on several occasions

626
00:26:35,633 --> 00:26:37,966
and we were both very inspired

627
00:26:37,966 --> 00:26:39,366
by the look and the feel of the

628
00:26:39,366 --> 00:26:41,466
lure, which sadly no longer

629
00:26:41,466 --> 00:26:44,733
exists. And we thought wouldn't

630
00:26:44,733 --> 00:26:46,033
it be great to create something

631
00:26:46,033 --> 00:26:47,733
like that in London. We said

632
00:26:47,733 --> 00:26:49,033
yeah we should open our own

633
00:26:49,033 --> 00:26:51,033
place and we just sat over

634
00:26:51,033 --> 00:26:52,766
coffee just talking about this

635
00:26:52,766 --> 00:26:56,300
and as a lot of discussions go

636
00:26:56,300 --> 00:27:00,033
and we went away with some sort

637
00:27:00,033 --> 00:27:04,733
of resolve. But never thinking

638
00:27:04,733 --> 00:27:05,700
that anything would happen

639
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:07,566
straight away, I was busy doing

640
00:27:07,566 --> 00:27:10,533
other things. But Guy suddenly

641
00:27:10,533 --> 00:27:12,500
rang me up two or three days

642
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:14,233
later and says, you know what we

643
00:27:14,233 --> 00:27:15,900
were saying the other day, I

644
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,066
think I found a venue. I found

645
00:27:18,066 --> 00:27:20,433
this disused railway arch one

646
00:27:20,433 --> 00:27:22,533
day when I was driving my car

647
00:27:22,533 --> 00:27:24,233
through Vauxhall. We stuck our

648
00:27:24,233 --> 00:27:26,133
head in, it was empty, no that's

649
00:27:26,133 --> 00:27:28,033
a lie, it wasn't empty, it was

650
00:27:28,033 --> 00:27:30,633
sort of ice cream vans were sort

651
00:27:30,633 --> 00:27:32,333
of stored in here and funnily

652
00:27:32,333 --> 00:27:35,166
enough the ice cream brand was

653
00:27:35,166 --> 00:27:37,733
called Mr Whippy. Yeah famously

654
00:27:37,733 --> 00:27:41,633
the late Baroness Thatcher

655
00:27:41,633 --> 00:27:44,266
invented Mr Whippy, I don't know

656
00:27:44,266 --> 00:27:46,433
if you know that, the type of

657
00:27:46,433 --> 00:27:48,100
ice cream, so I think there's

658
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:49,800
sort of a strange irony in that.

659
00:27:50,133 --> 00:27:52,133
It was quite sort of funny, so

660
00:27:52,133 --> 00:27:53,800
Mr Whippy wanted to vacate the

661
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,900
premises, so we got a deal, we

662
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:57,600
took on the premises, we sort of

663
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,233
refurbished it and then we

664
00:27:59,233 --> 00:28:01,900
opened. A few months later Guy

665
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:04,366
and myself decided the dress

666
00:28:04,366 --> 00:28:06,533
code is what we like to see in

667
00:28:06,533 --> 00:28:08,666
here. So we defined the dress

668
00:28:08,666 --> 00:28:10,433
code as leather, rubber,

669
00:28:11,066 --> 00:28:13,533
uniform, skinhead, industrial.

670
00:28:14,633 --> 00:28:16,566
Financially it was all my life

671
00:28:16,566 --> 00:28:18,366
savings and my redundancy money,

672
00:28:18,733 --> 00:28:19,966
so it was a massive financial

673
00:28:19,966 --> 00:28:25,866
risk. Emotionally there was the

674
00:28:25,866 --> 00:28:30,966
emotional strain of running what

675
00:28:30,966 --> 00:28:33,966
would legally be deemed an

676
00:28:33,966 --> 00:28:36,666
immoral house. And I think I

677
00:28:36,666 --> 00:28:37,733
don't know, it's something like

678
00:28:37,733 --> 00:28:41,066
the 1564 Immoral Houses Act or

679
00:28:41,066 --> 00:28:42,366
something, you know, some

680
00:28:42,366 --> 00:28:43,833
obscure piece of legislation

681
00:28:43,833 --> 00:28:45,600
that the police at the time

682
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,166
could dig out and use against

683
00:28:47,166 --> 00:28:48,866
you. We made the decision that I

684
00:28:48,866 --> 00:28:52,966
would be the sole licensee, so

685
00:28:52,966 --> 00:28:55,366
that in the event of the police

686
00:28:55,366 --> 00:28:59,733
arresting

687
00:28:59,733 --> 00:29:02,466
me for running an immoral house,

688
00:29:03,766 --> 00:29:06,766
that I wouldn't have assets that

689
00:29:06,766 --> 00:29:08,866
they could seize. And that was a

690
00:29:08,866 --> 00:29:10,133
very, at the time, that was a

691
00:29:10,133 --> 00:29:12,133
very important consideration

692
00:29:12,133 --> 00:29:14,533
because it had happened to

693
00:29:14,533 --> 00:29:16,766
people previously living off

694
00:29:16,766 --> 00:29:18,700
immoral earnings, which was not

695
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:20,966
designed for bars and clubs, it

696
00:29:20,966 --> 00:29:25,233
was designed more for fully

697
00:29:25,233 --> 00:29:29,600
working brothels. Yeah, when we

698
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,400
started the venue we did our

699
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,066
sums and we worked out how many

700
00:29:33,066 --> 00:29:35,233
people we needed. And we came

701
00:29:35,233 --> 00:29:36,933
out with a sort of figure that

702
00:29:36,933 --> 00:29:38,766
would sort of make it worthwhile

703
00:29:38,766 --> 00:29:42,133
as a sort of venture. And when

704
00:29:42,133 --> 00:29:44,100
we opened, probably about four

705
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:45,833
or five times that number came

706
00:29:45,833 --> 00:29:47,733
in over a weekend than we'd

707
00:29:47,733 --> 00:29:51,366
originally sort of needed, and

708
00:29:51,366 --> 00:29:52,966
many, many more than we really

709
00:29:52,966 --> 00:29:55,800
expected. And it went on for

710
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,466
week after week after week. The

711
00:29:57,466 --> 00:29:59,133
bar was much more successful in

712
00:29:59,133 --> 00:30:01,466
terms of numbers and reputation

713
00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:03,933
than I ever thought it would be,

714
00:30:03,966 --> 00:30:05,000
or we ever thought it would be.

715
00:30:05,466 --> 00:30:06,566
So we thought initially we'd do

716
00:30:06,566 --> 00:30:07,933
it for two years and then two

717
00:30:07,933 --> 00:30:10,233
years became three, became five,

718
00:30:10,466 --> 00:30:14,133
became seven. And it was still

719
00:30:14,133 --> 00:30:15,566
going strong. We're

720
00:30:15,566 --> 00:30:17,466
predominantly talking pre

721
00:30:17,466 --> 00:30:17,733
-internet.

722
00:30:21,233 --> 00:30:23,700
My name is Brian Robinson and

723
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:25,200
I'm here at the hoist on

724
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,033
London's glittering South Bank.

725
00:30:27,433 --> 00:30:28,900
Well, I've lived in London for

726
00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:32,166
over 30 years and been to a lot

727
00:30:32,166 --> 00:30:35,066
of different places. And the one

728
00:30:35,066 --> 00:30:36,533
thing that London used to really

729
00:30:36,533 --> 00:30:38,966
lack was a decent leather bar.

730
00:30:39,466 --> 00:30:40,600
There have been dozens and

731
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,333
dozens of bars that have been

732
00:30:42,333 --> 00:30:43,933
run by straight people. I mean,

733
00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,233
I can remember there was a

734
00:30:47,233 --> 00:30:50,100
famous gay bar in St. Martin's

735
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:51,566
Lane called the Salisbury, which

736
00:30:51,566 --> 00:30:53,666
was one of the main gay bars in

737
00:30:53,666 --> 00:30:55,066
the heart of theatre land. And

738
00:30:55,066 --> 00:30:56,733
it was a big scandal because two

739
00:30:56,733 --> 00:30:59,633
men kissed in the bar. And if

740
00:30:59,633 --> 00:31:01,633
you can imagine that people were

741
00:31:01,633 --> 00:31:03,733
so desperate to go to any gay

742
00:31:03,733 --> 00:31:06,133
bar in the centre of town that

743
00:31:06,133 --> 00:31:08,766
they put up with it, that there

744
00:31:08,766 --> 00:31:11,733
was no touching, that people who

745
00:31:11,733 --> 00:31:13,600
owned the bar wanted it to

746
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:14,900
appear, to all intents and

747
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,433
purposes, as a straight bar. And

748
00:31:16,433 --> 00:31:18,333
the notion that people might be

749
00:31:18,333 --> 00:31:19,566
sexually attracted to each other

750
00:31:19,566 --> 00:31:21,166
was a kind of inconvenience

751
00:31:21,166 --> 00:31:22,800
because it might have upset the

752
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,333
straight customers. The scene

753
00:31:24,333 --> 00:31:27,566
before here was very... there

754
00:31:27,566 --> 00:31:30,166
was the Coal Herd, which was the

755
00:31:30,166 --> 00:31:31,900
bar that had been really going

756
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,133
from the 60s. But it closed at

757
00:31:34,133 --> 00:31:35,300
11 o'clock at night and it was

758
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:37,466
just a bar. Public toilets were

759
00:31:37,466 --> 00:31:39,966
a big place for picking up at

760
00:31:39,966 --> 00:31:41,966
the time. And Hampstead Heath

761
00:31:41,966 --> 00:31:44,766
was hugely important and hugely

762
00:31:44,766 --> 00:31:45,100
popular.

763
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,700
At a time when... I mean, I can

764
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:52,966
remember working on London

765
00:31:52,966 --> 00:31:54,200
Lesbian and Gay Switchboard and

766
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,666
talking to people who were

767
00:31:56,666 --> 00:31:58,766
exploring certain parts of their

768
00:31:58,766 --> 00:32:00,600
fetishistic identities or

769
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,400
interested in doing it, and

770
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,266
talking about how they were just

771
00:32:04,266 --> 00:32:07,100
too frightened to even open the

772
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:10,166
door of the Coal Herd. One guy

773
00:32:10,166 --> 00:32:13,333
had walked past it a dozen times

774
00:32:13,333 --> 00:32:14,933
and not been able to go in

775
00:32:14,933 --> 00:32:16,700
because people, they didn't know

776
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,333
what could possibly go on

777
00:32:18,333 --> 00:32:21,166
inside. They had visions of, you

778
00:32:21,166 --> 00:32:25,433
know, terrible, wonderful orgies

779
00:32:25,433 --> 00:32:27,466
that were kind of miles away

780
00:32:27,466 --> 00:32:29,666
from what was really going on.

781
00:32:30,933 --> 00:32:33,133
The Coal Herd was a strange

782
00:32:33,133 --> 00:32:37,733
place that... it kind of worked

783
00:32:37,733 --> 00:32:40,166
against really creating a sense

784
00:32:40,166 --> 00:32:41,366
of community. I'm sure there

785
00:32:41,366 --> 00:32:43,033
were very nice barmen. But

786
00:32:43,033 --> 00:32:44,333
knowing that the police might be

787
00:32:44,333 --> 00:32:49,433
outside moving you on, there was

788
00:32:49,433 --> 00:32:52,266
a time in the early 80s when the

789
00:32:52,266 --> 00:32:54,266
police sent in agent

790
00:32:54,266 --> 00:32:56,066
provocateurs to try and get

791
00:32:56,066 --> 00:32:57,466
people to have sex in the

792
00:32:57,466 --> 00:32:59,066
toilets. The police attitude

793
00:32:59,066 --> 00:33:01,366
seemed to have been, we've given

794
00:33:01,366 --> 00:33:03,366
you an inch, you're not getting

795
00:33:03,366 --> 00:33:06,800
an inch further. And so what

796
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,866
happened was an escalation in

797
00:33:09,866 --> 00:33:11,666
police entrapment and

798
00:33:11,666 --> 00:33:12,933
surveillance operations,

799
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:15,833
particularly targeting public

800
00:33:15,833 --> 00:33:19,333
toilets, but also parks and

801
00:33:19,333 --> 00:33:21,800
beaches. So anywhere where gay

802
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,166
men might go cruising became

803
00:33:24,166 --> 00:33:26,233
fair game. What the police would

804
00:33:26,233 --> 00:33:29,066
do is choose a young, handsome

805
00:33:29,066 --> 00:33:32,366
officer, dress him up in a white

806
00:33:32,366 --> 00:33:34,500
t-shirt, tight white jeans,

807
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,466
black boots and a leather

808
00:33:36,466 --> 00:33:39,900
jacket, and then send him into

809
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:42,066
public toilets and parks where

810
00:33:42,066 --> 00:33:45,866
gay men went to, in effect,

811
00:33:46,666 --> 00:33:48,566
incite the commission of

812
00:33:48,566 --> 00:33:51,166
homosexual acts. Sometimes these

813
00:33:51,166 --> 00:33:54,166
officers would play with

814
00:33:54,166 --> 00:33:58,033
themselves, occasionally even

815
00:33:58,033 --> 00:34:01,066
get out their dick, and any gay

816
00:34:01,066 --> 00:34:03,633
man who responded would be

817
00:34:03,633 --> 00:34:06,033
arrested. What Outrage did in

818
00:34:06,033 --> 00:34:09,300
response was to produce leaflets

819
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:11,466
warning gay men that police

820
00:34:11,466 --> 00:34:13,066
agent provocateurs were

821
00:34:13,066 --> 00:34:16,500
operating in the area. We pasted

822
00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:19,566
these leaflets on the back of

823
00:34:19,566 --> 00:34:22,100
toilet doors and over urinals.

824
00:34:22,766 --> 00:34:25,066
We stapled them to trees in

825
00:34:25,066 --> 00:34:27,766
parks and gardens where the

826
00:34:27,766 --> 00:34:31,366
police were operating. We also

827
00:34:31,366 --> 00:34:33,800
surreptitiously did our own

828
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,000
surveillance and photographed

829
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,566
the undercover police officers

830
00:34:37,566 --> 00:34:40,300
and then put their photographs

831
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:44,966
out in public places so that gay

832
00:34:44,966 --> 00:34:46,933
men could look out for these

833
00:34:46,933 --> 00:34:49,166
officers and be aware that they

834
00:34:49,166 --> 00:34:52,333
were undercover agents. It

835
00:34:52,333 --> 00:34:54,166
really, really riled the police.

836
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,233
They were furious. We rubbed our

837
00:34:57,233 --> 00:34:59,333
hands with glee. It was such

838
00:34:59,333 --> 00:35:01,666
fun. I mean the notion of even

839
00:35:01,666 --> 00:35:02,933
walking around in leather

840
00:35:02,933 --> 00:35:04,666
trousers in London in the 80s

841
00:35:04,666 --> 00:35:07,566
was pretty outre that most

842
00:35:07,566 --> 00:35:09,966
people didn't do it. There were

843
00:35:09,966 --> 00:35:11,633
other places that started in the

844
00:35:11,633 --> 00:35:13,300
80s, but nearly all of those

845
00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:17,133
were just a special night. You

846
00:35:17,133 --> 00:35:21,633
know, a Thursday night at the

847
00:35:21,633 --> 00:35:24,533
Celebar or a Monday night at the

848
00:35:24,533 --> 00:35:26,866
Block. There were places that

849
00:35:26,866 --> 00:35:29,466
happened once a week in a

850
00:35:29,466 --> 00:35:31,366
supermarket shopping centre

851
00:35:31,366 --> 00:35:34,466
complex. It's amazing how erotic

852
00:35:34,466 --> 00:35:38,000
a few bits of tarpaulin and

853
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,466
camouflage netting can look. And

854
00:35:40,466 --> 00:35:42,966
they took over empty space and

855
00:35:42,966 --> 00:35:46,066
that was the fetish bars of the

856
00:35:46,066 --> 00:35:49,100
80s. The aim of this government

857
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:51,300
is to make everyone as miserable

858
00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:53,533
as possible. We then had this

859
00:35:53,533 --> 00:35:55,166
disgusting piece of legislation

860
00:35:55,166 --> 00:35:56,733
introduced by Margaret Thatcher

861
00:35:56,733 --> 00:35:58,166
in the late 80s called Clause

862
00:35:58,166 --> 00:36:00,400
28, which was a section of the

863
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,766
Local Government Bill that was

864
00:36:02,766 --> 00:36:05,066
intended to prohibit local

865
00:36:05,066 --> 00:36:06,433
authorities, that's city

866
00:36:06,433 --> 00:36:09,033
councils, from promoting

867
00:36:09,033 --> 00:36:11,033
homosexuality in any shape or

868
00:36:11,033 --> 00:36:13,166
form. It was a really nasty,

869
00:36:13,533 --> 00:36:14,833
vociferous piece of legislation

870
00:36:14,833 --> 00:36:17,966
that as a gay man, I was 28 when

871
00:36:17,966 --> 00:36:20,866
it came onto the statute book.

872
00:36:20,866 --> 00:36:23,433
It wasn't what it did, it's what

873
00:36:23,433 --> 00:36:25,366
it kind of implied and said

874
00:36:25,366 --> 00:36:27,466
about gay men, that they were

875
00:36:27,466 --> 00:36:30,166
stigmatised,

876
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:35,833
very different. It created a

877
00:36:35,833 --> 00:36:38,000
lot. It gave the right-wing

878
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,066
media in this country green

879
00:36:41,066 --> 00:36:43,433
light to attack city councils

880
00:36:43,433 --> 00:36:44,666
that were trying to introduce

881
00:36:44,666 --> 00:36:47,733
equality policies, what

882
00:36:47,733 --> 00:36:49,066
Americans call affirmative

883
00:36:49,066 --> 00:36:51,900
action and things like that. It

884
00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:53,900
gave the green light to a lot of

885
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:54,900
right-wing press in this

886
00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:57,166
country. That was one of

887
00:36:57,166 --> 00:36:58,166
Thatcher's masterpieces.

888
00:36:58,333 --> 00:37:00,366
Interestingly, the last time she

889
00:37:00,366 --> 00:37:01,966
ever voted in Parliament before

890
00:37:01,966 --> 00:37:04,933
she died was a vote that she,

891
00:37:05,666 --> 00:37:08,866
when the Labour government that

892
00:37:08,866 --> 00:37:10,466
came in in 97, were absolutely

893
00:37:10,466 --> 00:37:11,700
committed to repealing that

894
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:13,833
piece of legislation. Margaret

895
00:37:13,833 --> 00:37:17,933
Thatcher's last vote in the

896
00:37:17,933 --> 00:37:19,766
House of Lords was to vote

897
00:37:19,766 --> 00:37:21,566
against that piece of

898
00:37:21,566 --> 00:37:23,866
legislation being repealed. I

899
00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:25,333
always say to any gay men who

900
00:37:25,333 --> 00:37:27,233
get dewy-eyed about Margaret

901
00:37:27,233 --> 00:37:29,366
Thatcher, that maybe bear that

902
00:37:29,366 --> 00:37:32,433
in mind. The AIDS epidemic was

903
00:37:32,433 --> 00:37:36,166
really ramping up. There were no

904
00:37:36,166 --> 00:37:38,000
cocktail cures available. They

905
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,233
were pretty dark days. The sex

906
00:37:40,233 --> 00:37:43,633
that we have here has been an

907
00:37:43,633 --> 00:37:45,133
evolved sex over many, many

908
00:37:45,133 --> 00:37:49,966
years. How things change? I

909
00:37:49,966 --> 00:37:53,366
think HIV has a huge part to

910
00:37:53,366 --> 00:37:55,033
play in how sex has changed.

911
00:37:58,433 --> 00:38:02,200
I'm Joseph Sonnenbend. I'm a

912
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,933
physician and a scientist. I am

913
00:38:05,933 --> 00:38:09,666
a specialist in medicine in

914
00:38:09,666 --> 00:38:10,866
infectious diseases and

915
00:38:10,866 --> 00:38:12,566
particularly in sexually

916
00:38:12,566 --> 00:38:14,366
transmitted diseases. I lived in

917
00:38:14,366 --> 00:38:16,966
New York most of my adult life

918
00:38:16,966 --> 00:38:19,233
and happened to be in New York

919
00:38:19,233 --> 00:38:22,833
when AIDS first became apparent

920
00:38:22,833 --> 00:38:24,966
in 1981, at which time I was

921
00:38:24,966 --> 00:38:27,366
running a practice. My patients

922
00:38:27,366 --> 00:38:30,833
were gay guys. I had quite a lot

923
00:38:30,833 --> 00:38:32,500
of experience in taking care of

924
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:34,766
guys who actually were among the

925
00:38:34,766 --> 00:38:36,500
very first to come down with

926
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,133
this disease. I guess I have

927
00:38:39,133 --> 00:38:40,400
that particular experience of

928
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,566
being in, as it were, at the

929
00:38:42,566 --> 00:38:43,833
beginning or even before the

930
00:38:43,833 --> 00:38:45,500
beginning. A couple of my

931
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,233
patients became quite active. A

932
00:38:48,233 --> 00:38:49,600
guy called Michael Callan and

933
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,566
Richard Berkowitz. I think, no,

934
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:55,433
at least I know that we, the

935
00:38:55,433 --> 00:38:59,266
three of us, produced what I

936
00:38:59,266 --> 00:39:00,566
guess we recognized as being the

937
00:39:00,566 --> 00:39:03,066
first safe sex guidelines. A

938
00:39:03,066 --> 00:39:04,366
little book we published

939
00:39:04,366 --> 00:39:06,700
ourselves called How to Have Sex

940
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:09,966
in an Epidemic. Most of the guys

941
00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:12,633
in New York who saw it were

942
00:39:12,633 --> 00:39:14,166
incredibly grateful. In fact,

943
00:39:14,266 --> 00:39:15,266
there was a big difference

944
00:39:15,266 --> 00:39:16,533
between the response on the

945
00:39:16,533 --> 00:39:17,900
ground from actual individuals.

946
00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:19,833
I've got a shoe box somewhere

947
00:39:19,833 --> 00:39:23,066
full of letters from all over

948
00:39:23,066 --> 00:39:24,233
the place, some of them even

949
00:39:24,233 --> 00:39:25,966
from outside the US.

950
00:39:28,333 --> 00:39:29,866
I sort of thank you. We're

951
00:39:29,866 --> 00:39:31,000
pleased to have got it. But

952
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,066
slowly we got some kind of

953
00:39:34,066 --> 00:39:36,033
response from the more official

954
00:39:36,033 --> 00:39:37,433
kind of gay response, but mostly

955
00:39:37,433 --> 00:39:40,766
they hated us. That's to say,

956
00:39:41,766 --> 00:39:43,566
then I suppose the leadership of

957
00:39:43,566 --> 00:39:44,666
the gay community in New York

958
00:39:44,666 --> 00:39:45,733
City was the Gay Men's Health

959
00:39:45,733 --> 00:39:49,633
Crisis, who really didn't like

960
00:39:49,633 --> 00:39:51,500
us at all. They didn't like us

961
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:53,533
with a passion, really, all

962
00:39:53,533 --> 00:39:57,833
three of us. They continued. In

963
00:39:57,833 --> 00:39:58,966
fact, one of them, a guy called

964
00:39:58,966 --> 00:40:00,533
Larry Mass, wrote a thing about

965
00:40:00,533 --> 00:40:01,366
me and said I was a mass

966
00:40:01,366 --> 00:40:01,866
murderer.

967
00:40:05,633 --> 00:40:08,833
A little disconcerting. Anybody

968
00:40:08,833 --> 00:40:12,033
living in New York in 1975, on

969
00:40:12,033 --> 00:40:14,800
the US Post Stonewall, you have

970
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,766
to have been there to have seen

971
00:40:15,766 --> 00:40:17,366
it, basically. I don't think

972
00:40:17,366 --> 00:40:20,733
it's just beyond words really to

973
00:40:20,733 --> 00:40:22,833
describe it. It was a great

974
00:40:22,833 --> 00:40:24,433
time. It was a very dangerous

975
00:40:24,433 --> 00:40:28,366
time, but nobody quite knew. The

976
00:40:28,366 --> 00:40:29,800
first people to get sick were

977
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,300
the people who were coming to me

978
00:40:32,300 --> 00:40:33,500
because they had gonorrhea and

979
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:37,166
they had syphilis. In trying to

980
00:40:37,166 --> 00:40:41,833
explain what was going on, I did

981
00:40:41,833 --> 00:40:45,533
speak about this. It wasn't just

982
00:40:45,533 --> 00:40:47,866
somebody living with a single

983
00:40:47,866 --> 00:40:49,766
partner or somebody who just had

984
00:40:49,766 --> 00:40:51,533
sex now and again or whatever.

985
00:40:51,566 --> 00:40:52,733
Those guys weren't getting sick.

986
00:40:52,866 --> 00:40:54,266
Maybe later on they did, but not

987
00:40:54,266 --> 00:40:56,833
in the beginning. In pointing

988
00:40:56,833 --> 00:40:58,600
out to a particular lifestyle, I

989
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,900
think this offended the GMHC. In

990
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:02,566
fact,

991
00:41:05,033 --> 00:41:05,466
stupidly,

992
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:09,800
there's a little bit where Larry

993
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,100
Kramers says something to the

994
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:12,400
people. We couldn't tell people

995
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,966
how about this because they

996
00:41:13,966 --> 00:41:15,366
wouldn't have any sympathy for

997
00:41:15,366 --> 00:41:17,200
us. They could take a look at

998
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,466
the mine shaft sort of thing and

999
00:41:18,466 --> 00:41:19,333
what would they think?

1000
00:41:22,366 --> 00:41:24,866
It's ridiculous. Actually, that

1001
00:41:24,866 --> 00:41:25,633
means he was a little bit

1002
00:41:25,633 --> 00:41:26,966
ashamed of himself, I suppose.

1003
00:41:27,966 --> 00:41:30,533
The deaths, and I knew people

1004
00:41:30,533 --> 00:41:33,833
who were dying every week in the

1005
00:41:33,833 --> 00:41:37,266
80s, particularly the 85 to 90

1006
00:41:37,266 --> 00:41:41,500
were terrible times. Two of my

1007
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:44,000
late partners both died of it.

1008
00:41:49,300 --> 00:41:52,300
I think it was a big mistake. I

1009
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:53,266
think it was a hugely big

1010
00:41:53,266 --> 00:41:54,633
mistake, a ridiculously big

1011
00:41:54,633 --> 00:41:59,233
mistake. I think it was more, I

1012
00:41:59,233 --> 00:42:03,233
can see no reason for it other

1013
00:42:03,233 --> 00:42:06,533
than as an expression of,

1014
00:42:09,166 --> 00:42:11,600
I'd say homophobic, but the

1015
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:12,866
truth is that many gay people

1016
00:42:12,866 --> 00:42:15,700
agreed with it. It was just

1017
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:17,233
short-sightedness and stupidity

1018
00:42:17,233 --> 00:42:20,633
and maybe giving in to the need

1019
00:42:20,633 --> 00:42:21,666
to show that they were doing

1020
00:42:21,666 --> 00:42:23,800
something. They would have been

1021
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,366
much better to use the

1022
00:42:25,366 --> 00:42:27,233
bathhouses as a place to educate

1023
00:42:27,233 --> 00:42:30,333
people. It's the point of

1024
00:42:30,333 --> 00:42:31,466
closing the bathhouses. You

1025
00:42:31,466 --> 00:42:32,766
can't close people's bedrooms.

1026
00:42:32,933 --> 00:42:34,733
It's kind of ridiculous. Some

1027
00:42:34,733 --> 00:42:36,433
people were critical of the

1028
00:42:36,433 --> 00:42:38,433
hoist saying that it was

1029
00:42:38,433 --> 00:42:42,166
encouraging too much sex in an

1030
00:42:42,166 --> 00:42:44,233
era of HIV and AIDS. The

1031
00:42:44,233 --> 00:42:45,133
experience in London has been

1032
00:42:45,133 --> 00:42:46,466
different to say in New York

1033
00:42:46,466 --> 00:42:48,466
where a lot of bars, I mean I've

1034
00:42:48,466 --> 00:42:50,166
never been to New York, I only

1035
00:42:50,166 --> 00:42:51,833
heard stories that they got

1036
00:42:51,833 --> 00:42:53,866
closed down because of the AIDS

1037
00:42:53,866 --> 00:42:55,533
epidemic. What's been different

1038
00:42:55,533 --> 00:42:57,433
in this country is the way that

1039
00:42:57,433 --> 00:42:58,666
the health services have been

1040
00:42:58,666 --> 00:43:00,766
prepared to link in to venues

1041
00:43:00,766 --> 00:43:02,433
and the fact that you can come

1042
00:43:02,433 --> 00:43:04,166
in here and you can get condoms

1043
00:43:04,166 --> 00:43:05,500
and you can make an informed

1044
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:08,066
choice around the sex you have.

1045
00:43:09,566 --> 00:43:11,233
Local health authority would

1046
00:43:11,233 --> 00:43:13,133
come down here with the HGLC

1047
00:43:13,133 --> 00:43:15,500
guys and they would engage

1048
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:16,766
people in conversations around

1049
00:43:16,766 --> 00:43:18,400
the sex that they had and that

1050
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,733
only can happen because the

1051
00:43:20,733 --> 00:43:22,866
health service as well as the

1052
00:43:22,866 --> 00:43:24,266
police are enlightened to that

1053
00:43:24,266 --> 00:43:26,866
conversation. So that's why

1054
00:43:26,866 --> 00:43:29,866
these places can still exist is

1055
00:43:29,866 --> 00:43:30,733
because you have that

1056
00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:32,733
partnership approach. It's not

1057
00:43:32,733 --> 00:43:34,966
like, oh look they're fucking

1058
00:43:34,966 --> 00:43:36,066
down there and they're spreading

1059
00:43:36,066 --> 00:43:37,833
AIDS and let's close it down.

1060
00:43:38,233 --> 00:43:39,900
It's been a more, well guys are

1061
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:41,733
going to have sex, well they're

1062
00:43:41,733 --> 00:43:42,966
having sex in public, they're

1063
00:43:42,966 --> 00:43:44,933
having sex openly and you know

1064
00:43:44,933 --> 00:43:47,100
what, we can link in to that and

1065
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:48,833
give a health message out and

1066
00:43:48,833 --> 00:43:50,233
that's been I suppose an

1067
00:43:50,233 --> 00:43:51,966
enlightened approach compared

1068
00:43:51,966 --> 00:43:53,866
with what's happening in some

1069
00:43:53,866 --> 00:43:55,066
cities in America where it's

1070
00:43:55,066 --> 00:43:56,000
like, yeah just shut them all

1071
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,766
down. What does that do? Drive

1072
00:43:57,766 --> 00:43:59,433
it all underground. Does it

1073
00:43:59,433 --> 00:44:01,933
increase or decrease the HIV? No

1074
00:44:01,933 --> 00:44:03,166
it doesn't. People still get it.

1075
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,866
Guys still fuck. People were

1076
00:44:04,866 --> 00:44:06,500
denied a chance to be educated

1077
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:08,866
and use condoms. It was

1078
00:44:08,866 --> 00:44:11,466
irrational and completely

1079
00:44:11,466 --> 00:44:16,100
stupid. Very stupid. In this

1080
00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:18,366
period there were still people

1081
00:44:18,366 --> 00:44:20,933
in the LGBT community who argued

1082
00:44:20,933 --> 00:44:23,066
that in response to HIV and AIDS

1083
00:44:23,066 --> 00:44:26,766
we should have less sex and that

1084
00:44:26,766 --> 00:44:28,300
having lots of sex was not a

1085
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:32,333
good idea. My own view was that

1086
00:44:32,333 --> 00:44:34,933
having lots of sex is fine

1087
00:44:34,933 --> 00:44:37,066
providing it's safe. Providing

1088
00:44:37,066 --> 00:44:38,500
you don't put yourself or your

1089
00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:40,100
partner at risk. I think that

1090
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:41,766
was the philosophy of the hoist.

1091
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:44,666
It was not about responding to

1092
00:44:44,666 --> 00:44:46,733
HIV and AIDS by saying we should

1093
00:44:46,733 --> 00:44:48,166
dampen our sexuality and

1094
00:44:48,166 --> 00:44:50,266
desires. It was not about saying

1095
00:44:50,266 --> 00:44:52,166
that sex was bad or dangerous.

1096
00:44:52,633 --> 00:44:55,233
It was about celebrating sex but

1097
00:44:55,233 --> 00:44:57,900
encouraging people to have sex

1098
00:44:57,900 --> 00:44:59,933
safely and responsibly. I think

1099
00:44:59,933 --> 00:45:01,833
that was a moral choice, a moral

1100
00:45:01,833 --> 00:45:04,766
decision, a moral attitude. The

1101
00:45:04,766 --> 00:45:05,833
big mistake is on people when

1102
00:45:05,833 --> 00:45:06,966
you talk to them, they think

1103
00:45:06,966 --> 00:45:09,033
you're moralizing. There's

1104
00:45:09,033 --> 00:45:10,166
nothing wrong about the bath

1105
00:45:10,166 --> 00:45:12,300
houses. It's the background of

1106
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:17,133
what's going on. By 1995-1996

1107
00:45:17,133 --> 00:45:19,900
safe sex had come through. There

1108
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:21,466
were a lot of people who were

1109
00:45:21,466 --> 00:45:22,766
practicing safe sex at that

1110
00:45:22,766 --> 00:45:25,866
time. Also the first combination

1111
00:45:25,866 --> 00:45:26,733
of therapists were coming

1112
00:45:26,733 --> 00:45:30,000
through. People were a little

1113
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,666
bit more confident and getting

1114
00:45:32,666 --> 00:45:37,066
better. It was a big change by

1115
00:45:37,066 --> 00:45:41,266
1995-1996. Yes, we encouraged

1116
00:45:41,266 --> 00:45:44,200
safe sex and we still provide

1117
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,866
condoms today. I think that's a

1118
00:45:47,866 --> 00:45:49,533
very important thing. Getting

1119
00:45:49,533 --> 00:45:51,566
that message across is not

1120
00:45:51,566 --> 00:45:54,100
always easy. Particularly to

1121
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:55,766
some of the really young people.

1122
00:45:56,733 --> 00:45:58,800
One thing that really upsets me

1123
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,266
is when I meet guys in their

1124
00:46:01,266 --> 00:46:02,866
twenties who have become

1125
00:46:02,866 --> 00:46:05,500
positive. When they've had all

1126
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:07,933
the education. A lot of my

1127
00:46:07,933 --> 00:46:10,333
friends didn't know about it.

1128
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:12,866
Until we get rid of all these

1129
00:46:12,866 --> 00:46:14,766
germs, it will always happen. I

1130
00:46:14,766 --> 00:46:15,800
think when you reach a certain

1131
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,666
age, it can always happen. If

1132
00:46:17,666 --> 00:46:19,466
it's not about HIV, it will be

1133
00:46:19,466 --> 00:46:23,633
something else. We live in

1134
00:46:23,633 --> 00:46:26,066
a sexphobic, let alone

1135
00:46:26,066 --> 00:46:27,833
homosexual, it's just sex.

1136
00:46:28,633 --> 00:46:29,733
People are squeamish,

1137
00:46:30,433 --> 00:46:33,833
frustrated, who knows what.

1138
00:46:34,066 --> 00:46:36,900
Screwed up is all hell. That for

1139
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:38,133
a start. When you get put in the

1140
00:46:38,133 --> 00:46:42,533
gay thing, it's even worse. When

1141
00:46:42,533 --> 00:46:47,366
you associate sex, a particular

1142
00:46:47,366 --> 00:46:49,133
kind of sex, with death and

1143
00:46:49,133 --> 00:46:51,966
disease, that becomes an attack

1144
00:46:51,966 --> 00:46:54,066
on sex in a way. It can be used

1145
00:46:54,066 --> 00:46:56,166
as an attack on sex. We were

1146
00:46:56,166 --> 00:46:59,833
very careful in our safe things.

1147
00:47:00,566 --> 00:47:02,933
To make a celebration of sex. To

1148
00:47:02,933 --> 00:47:04,966
stress the whole time that sex

1149
00:47:04,966 --> 00:47:07,433
is a vital part of one's

1150
00:47:07,433 --> 00:47:09,066
experience. That it's part of

1151
00:47:09,066 --> 00:47:11,066
being human. It's one of life's

1152
00:47:11,066 --> 00:47:18,833
joys. And use condoms to

1153
00:47:18,833 --> 00:47:21,266
keep yourself alive, basically

1154
00:47:21,266 --> 00:47:23,200
speaking. There are condoms,

1155
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,966
lubes, available for those

1156
00:47:24,966 --> 00:47:27,166
people who do want to practice

1157
00:47:27,166 --> 00:47:30,033
safer sex. So it is available,

1158
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:32,033
whether the person chooses to do

1159
00:47:32,033 --> 00:47:33,966
so or not. That's ultimately

1160
00:47:33,966 --> 00:47:35,500
their choice and their

1161
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:36,966
responsibility. I suppose I've

1162
00:47:36,966 --> 00:47:39,733
never felt unsafe here. I've

1163
00:47:39,733 --> 00:47:41,533
been HIV positive, diagnosed for

1164
00:47:41,533 --> 00:47:44,666
15 years. I'm undetectable,

1165
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,166
thank God. I look after my body,

1166
00:47:47,366 --> 00:47:49,966
I eat well, I go to the gym. I

1167
00:47:49,966 --> 00:47:52,266
suppose it is a safe place for

1168
00:47:52,266 --> 00:47:55,500
people with HIV. I wonder

1169
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:57,066
whether it's a safe place for

1170
00:47:57,066 --> 00:48:00,800
people who are negative. I

1171
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,833
wonder. That might sound a

1172
00:48:02,833 --> 00:48:04,166
little controversial. Why would

1173
00:48:04,166 --> 00:48:04,966
you wonder that?

1174
00:48:07,833 --> 00:48:10,566
Because there are places that

1175
00:48:10,566 --> 00:48:11,900
are leather bars, and I'm not

1176
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:13,500
particularly singling out this

1177
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:15,666
one. Are places where people

1178
00:48:15,666 --> 00:48:19,066
have unprotected sex. And there

1179
00:48:19,066 --> 00:48:21,066
are places where people want to

1180
00:48:21,066 --> 00:48:24,266
have unprotected sex. And I

1181
00:48:24,266 --> 00:48:26,333
wonder that if you are negative,

1182
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,133
whether you feel you want to or

1183
00:48:30,133 --> 00:48:32,700
should or fit in. Or whether you

1184
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:34,766
feel you can't use the condoms

1185
00:48:34,766 --> 00:48:38,333
that are here. I would say now

1186
00:48:38,333 --> 00:48:41,800
that people recognise that HIV

1187
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,333
status has got nothing to do

1188
00:48:43,333 --> 00:48:45,366
with fetish and nothing to do

1189
00:48:45,366 --> 00:48:47,166
with how and where people choose

1190
00:48:47,166 --> 00:48:51,700
to have their sex. We worked

1191
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:54,133
very closely with the local

1192
00:48:54,133 --> 00:48:55,833
health authorities and with the

1193
00:48:55,833 --> 00:48:58,666
National Health Service. And

1194
00:48:58,666 --> 00:49:02,433
that permeated it out away from

1195
00:49:02,433 --> 00:49:05,200
issues around sex to more

1196
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,866
latterly issues around drugs and

1197
00:49:07,866 --> 00:49:11,533
sex. Because that's become more

1198
00:49:11,533 --> 00:49:13,766
recently more of an issue with

1199
00:49:13,766 --> 00:49:15,166
the proliferation of party

1200
00:49:15,166 --> 00:49:18,466
drugs. I'm Geoffrey Hinton. Most

1201
00:49:18,466 --> 00:49:21,233
people know me for DJing. I've

1202
00:49:21,233 --> 00:49:25,466
worked in clubs for eons. A long

1203
00:49:25,466 --> 00:49:26,800
long time. We're actually in

1204
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,400
Brompton Cemetery. It's in Ells

1205
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,366
Court in London. It kind of was

1206
00:49:33,366 --> 00:49:37,266
well known for its cruising. Not

1207
00:49:37,266 --> 00:49:39,300
so much anymore. Maybe after

1208
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:42,733
work sort of cruising and all, I

1209
00:49:42,733 --> 00:49:44,433
guess. But Ells Court in general

1210
00:49:44,433 --> 00:49:46,166
was a very gay area, especially

1211
00:49:46,166 --> 00:49:49,433
during the early 70s. So it's

1212
00:49:49,433 --> 00:49:52,000
about the mid 80s started to

1213
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,433
tail off around then I think. A

1214
00:49:54,433 --> 00:49:55,900
lot of gay bars were around

1215
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:57,733
here. Cole Herne being one of

1216
00:49:57,733 --> 00:49:59,100
the most famous ones, which is

1217
00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:02,133
the leather and denim one. I

1218
00:50:02,133 --> 00:50:04,666
think AIDS had a huge huge

1219
00:50:04,666 --> 00:50:07,533
effect on because it took out a

1220
00:50:07,533 --> 00:50:09,633
big arc of people's experiences.

1221
00:50:10,633 --> 00:50:15,300
So who came after that sort of

1222
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:16,033
gap? Because it actually

1223
00:50:16,033 --> 00:50:17,700
physically took people away. I

1224
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:19,266
mean they're not here. They're

1225
00:50:19,266 --> 00:50:21,733
dead. So the people after that

1226
00:50:21,733 --> 00:50:26,133
and as goes on have very little

1227
00:50:26,133 --> 00:50:29,033
reference. You know, real

1228
00:50:29,033 --> 00:50:31,533
reference to how things were

1229
00:50:31,533 --> 00:50:33,533
before. They might read about it

1230
00:50:33,533 --> 00:50:35,566
or something, but it's not the

1231
00:50:35,566 --> 00:50:37,933
same. I think drugs are partly

1232
00:50:37,933 --> 00:50:40,233
just to ignore all that. Just to

1233
00:50:40,233 --> 00:50:42,833
kind of block it and just like

1234
00:50:42,833 --> 00:50:44,700
escape from reality.

1235
00:50:47,433 --> 00:50:49,300
It seems to be escaping from

1236
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:51,133
reality, but not in an inclusive

1237
00:50:51,133 --> 00:50:52,700
sense. Not celebrating with your

1238
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:55,033
friends. More in a kind of

1239
00:50:55,033 --> 00:50:56,566
annihilation of yourself.

1240
00:50:57,266 --> 00:50:59,100
Because there's a big difference

1241
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:02,600
between smoking, even acid,

1242
00:51:03,233 --> 00:51:06,433
speed, ecstasy. Obviously it was

1243
00:51:06,433 --> 00:51:07,833
around. So all these drugs are

1244
00:51:07,833 --> 00:51:12,033
kind of, they work with a kind

1245
00:51:12,033 --> 00:51:15,266
of social interaction sexual

1246
00:51:15,266 --> 00:51:17,833
vibe. More of a fluid sort of

1247
00:51:17,833 --> 00:51:19,166
one from the other to the other.

1248
00:51:19,433 --> 00:51:21,266
Acid is a bit weird, but I never

1249
00:51:21,266 --> 00:51:23,666
had a problem with it. But when

1250
00:51:23,666 --> 00:51:25,700
you go into kind of like, you

1251
00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:28,000
know, later drugs now, like

1252
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,866
Crystal, Katamine, G, all those

1253
00:51:30,866 --> 00:51:34,866
things. They're very anesthetic

1254
00:51:34,866 --> 00:51:36,733
mad drugs. So you're in your

1255
00:51:36,733 --> 00:51:39,633
kind of brain thing. So people

1256
00:51:39,633 --> 00:51:40,966
walk around in more of a zombie

1257
00:51:40,966 --> 00:51:45,933
sort of way. And that kind of

1258
00:51:45,933 --> 00:51:47,933
sex, chemsex sort of club, party

1259
00:51:47,933 --> 00:51:50,333
thing you have now. It's a

1260
00:51:50,333 --> 00:51:52,966
little bit like zombies doing

1261
00:51:52,966 --> 00:51:54,933
that thing. Which is a different

1262
00:51:54,933 --> 00:51:57,033
set up from, I think, cruising.

1263
00:51:57,333 --> 00:51:59,533
Because cruising is more that,

1264
00:52:00,966 --> 00:52:03,500
even if it's in a club, it's

1265
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:06,833
just looking and playful and

1266
00:52:06,833 --> 00:52:10,533
flirting and touching. It's more

1267
00:52:10,533 --> 00:52:12,100
about the immediacy of the

1268
00:52:12,100 --> 00:52:14,300
situation. If you go along with

1269
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:17,000
the situation there and then,

1270
00:52:17,533 --> 00:52:20,633
what happens is, you know,

1271
00:52:20,933 --> 00:52:21,866
dynamic. I think it's

1272
00:52:21,866 --> 00:52:24,466
interesting. But the drugs have

1273
00:52:24,466 --> 00:52:27,033
kind of even taken that away,

1274
00:52:27,433 --> 00:52:28,833
that immediate, that kind of

1275
00:52:28,833 --> 00:52:31,033
spark, that thing that you meet

1276
00:52:31,033 --> 00:52:33,366
someone and you kind of,

1277
00:52:33,366 --> 00:52:35,666
something happens and something

1278
00:52:35,666 --> 00:52:36,700
just goes from there quite

1279
00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:37,966
quickly. Because drugs, you're

1280
00:52:37,966 --> 00:52:42,466
already in a kind of catatonic

1281
00:52:42,466 --> 00:52:43,966
state and you're in a kind of

1282
00:52:43,966 --> 00:52:45,366
dream state. The other person

1283
00:52:45,366 --> 00:52:48,366
will come into it, but it's not,

1284
00:52:49,166 --> 00:52:51,266
the engagement is very

1285
00:52:51,266 --> 00:52:54,033
different. It's a kind of, you

1286
00:52:54,033 --> 00:52:55,800
know, anesthetic sort of

1287
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,200
engagement. A detachment really,

1288
00:52:58,366 --> 00:53:00,400
very detached. Now because of

1289
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,033
drugs and everything, you're

1290
00:53:02,033 --> 00:53:03,933
getting 21, 22 year olds going

1291
00:53:03,933 --> 00:53:06,000
out buying huge toys and fisting

1292
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,233
each other. Where do you go from

1293
00:53:08,233 --> 00:53:10,033
that, apart from pissing on each

1294
00:53:10,033 --> 00:53:11,666
other and all the other extreme

1295
00:53:11,666 --> 00:53:13,866
things that people get in to get

1296
00:53:13,866 --> 00:53:15,166
their heart motivated and their

1297
00:53:15,166 --> 00:53:17,066
head sparking again, you know?

1298
00:53:17,266 --> 00:53:19,133
Stuff that you'd have to do in

1299
00:53:19,133 --> 00:53:21,666
your late 50s, early 60s. I see

1300
00:53:21,666 --> 00:53:22,966
young guys having to go into

1301
00:53:22,966 --> 00:53:24,333
more and more extreme things

1302
00:53:24,333 --> 00:53:26,333
just to get their head sparking

1303
00:53:26,333 --> 00:53:29,533
again, you know? What do you do?

1304
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:31,200
Sodom and Gomorrah again.

1305
00:53:36,666 --> 00:53:40,533
Well, I was one of a number of

1306
00:53:40,533 --> 00:53:43,466
people who organised campaigns

1307
00:53:43,466 --> 00:53:45,333
to challenge the unequal age

1308
00:53:45,333 --> 00:53:48,266
consent. Mostly working through

1309
00:53:48,266 --> 00:53:50,700
the LGBT rights group Outrage.

1310
00:53:51,833 --> 00:53:54,133
We staged a number of very high

1311
00:53:54,133 --> 00:53:56,833
profile visible protests to

1312
00:53:56,833 --> 00:53:57,866
challenge the unequal age

1313
00:53:57,866 --> 00:54:01,033
consent. And as a result, public

1314
00:54:01,033 --> 00:54:03,233
opinion began to change. So that

1315
00:54:03,233 --> 00:54:05,733
by the early to mid 1990s, a

1316
00:54:05,733 --> 00:54:08,266
majority of the public supported

1317
00:54:08,266 --> 00:54:10,733
an equal age consent. It was the

1318
00:54:10,733 --> 00:54:11,966
politicians that were holding

1319
00:54:11,966 --> 00:54:15,933
back. In 1994, the age of

1320
00:54:15,933 --> 00:54:20,900
consent was reduced to 18. There

1321
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:22,600
was a vote in parliament to

1322
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,733
reduce it to 16, to equalise it

1323
00:54:25,733 --> 00:54:26,966
with heterosexual men and women.

1324
00:54:26,966 --> 00:54:29,700
But that vote was lost. And it

1325
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:32,466
took almost another decade

1326
00:54:32,466 --> 00:54:35,033
before the politicians finally

1327
00:54:35,033 --> 00:54:36,966
managed to get around to

1328
00:54:36,966 --> 00:54:39,700
equalising the law. The law

1329
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:44,266
around public sexual encounters

1330
00:54:44,266 --> 00:54:47,933
was at best vague, at worst

1331
00:54:47,933 --> 00:54:50,466
discriminatory. Indicative of

1332
00:54:50,466 --> 00:54:53,500
the bias and discrimination of

1333
00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:54,966
the police towards the LGBT

1334
00:54:54,966 --> 00:54:57,366
community is the way in which

1335
00:54:57,366 --> 00:55:00,033
gay pornography was repressed

1336
00:55:00,033 --> 00:55:02,066
much more harshly than

1337
00:55:02,066 --> 00:55:03,933
equivalent straight pornography.

1338
00:55:04,833 --> 00:55:08,133
Likewise, in the 1990s, the

1339
00:55:08,133 --> 00:55:09,333
police had a big campaign

1340
00:55:09,333 --> 00:55:11,866
against consensual gay

1341
00:55:11,866 --> 00:55:14,566
sadomasochism. But no equivalent

1342
00:55:14,566 --> 00:55:16,733
campaign against consensual

1343
00:55:16,733 --> 00:55:19,633
heterosexual sadomasochism. And

1344
00:55:19,633 --> 00:55:22,166
many of the officers involved

1345
00:55:22,166 --> 00:55:25,133
seem to be coming to these

1346
00:55:25,133 --> 00:55:27,233
issues from the point of view

1347
00:55:27,233 --> 00:55:29,800
that gay people, an aspect of

1348
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,466
gay lifestyle, were

1349
00:55:31,466 --> 00:55:33,833
qualitatively more dangerous,

1350
00:55:34,133 --> 00:55:36,266
more immoral, more worthy of

1351
00:55:36,266 --> 00:55:38,633
prosecution than the comparative

1352
00:55:38,633 --> 00:55:41,233
straight ones. It was bias,

1353
00:55:41,833 --> 00:55:43,933
homophobic bias, pure and

1354
00:55:43,933 --> 00:55:47,466
simple. It was not uncommon in

1355
00:55:47,466 --> 00:55:49,433
the early 90s to hear of gay men

1356
00:55:49,433 --> 00:55:51,866
being harassed in public places

1357
00:55:51,866 --> 00:55:53,533
such as, you know, Hampstead

1358
00:55:53,533 --> 00:55:57,266
Heath and Clapham Common. And

1359
00:55:57,266 --> 00:55:58,833
there were a number of other

1360
00:55:58,833 --> 00:56:01,066
very high profile cases that

1361
00:56:01,066 --> 00:56:02,933
went along. You know, the

1362
00:56:02,933 --> 00:56:04,666
Spanner case was a particular

1363
00:56:04,666 --> 00:56:06,933
one. After stepping down as

1364
00:56:06,933 --> 00:56:08,266
International Mr Leather, I

1365
00:56:08,266 --> 00:56:09,400
became the trustee of the

1366
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:10,733
Spanner Trust for four years,

1367
00:56:10,733 --> 00:56:12,766
who are campaigning in the

1368
00:56:12,766 --> 00:56:14,433
United Kingdom to change the law

1369
00:56:14,433 --> 00:56:16,700
regarding sexual activity where

1370
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:18,266
injury occurs, because that's

1371
00:56:18,266 --> 00:56:20,066
currently illegal. And they also

1372
00:56:20,066 --> 00:56:21,566
help people who have got into

1373
00:56:21,566 --> 00:56:23,033
trouble because their SM

1374
00:56:23,033 --> 00:56:24,633
activities have led them into

1375
00:56:24,633 --> 00:56:27,933
legal hot water. In 1990, a lot

1376
00:56:27,933 --> 00:56:29,866
of gay men were taking part in

1377
00:56:29,866 --> 00:56:31,500
sadomasochistic activities and

1378
00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:33,300
videotaping it, because they had

1379
00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:34,400
no reason to believe it was

1380
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,666
against the law. There was a gay

1381
00:56:37,666 --> 00:56:39,233
man who was stopped in his car

1382
00:56:39,233 --> 00:56:40,866
and the police searched the car

1383
00:56:40,866 --> 00:56:41,966
and they found one of the

1384
00:56:41,966 --> 00:56:43,433
videotapes. And to begin with,

1385
00:56:43,833 --> 00:56:45,266
what they saw horrified them so

1386
00:56:45,266 --> 00:56:46,033
much they thought they were

1387
00:56:46,033 --> 00:56:47,733
looking at a snuff murder movie.

1388
00:56:47,833 --> 00:56:49,500
So they set up a murder inquiry.

1389
00:56:50,133 --> 00:56:51,666
The inquiry lasted seven years

1390
00:56:51,666 --> 00:56:53,466
and cost the public millions of

1391
00:56:53,466 --> 00:56:55,266
pounds in taxpayers money. So at

1392
00:56:55,266 --> 00:56:57,100
the end of it, they had to come

1393
00:56:57,100 --> 00:56:58,933
up with something to justify the

1394
00:56:58,933 --> 00:57:01,800
expense. So they prosecuted 16

1395
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,200
of the gay men who didn't

1396
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,466
necessarily know each other and

1397
00:57:05,466 --> 00:57:06,533
hadn't necessarily played with

1398
00:57:06,533 --> 00:57:08,933
each other, but they had taken

1399
00:57:08,933 --> 00:57:10,766
part in consensual SM and

1400
00:57:10,766 --> 00:57:12,666
videotaped it. None of them had

1401
00:57:12,666 --> 00:57:17,366
required hospital care, but the

1402
00:57:17,366 --> 00:57:18,833
rest of the men were offered the

1403
00:57:18,833 --> 00:57:20,033
chance who were part of the

1404
00:57:20,033 --> 00:57:20,933
investigation. I think it was

1405
00:57:20,933 --> 00:57:22,533
about 100 men to turn Queen's

1406
00:57:22,533 --> 00:57:24,166
evidence on the 16. So they

1407
00:57:24,166 --> 00:57:25,933
wouldn't be prosecuted if they

1408
00:57:25,933 --> 00:57:27,333
gave evidence against the 16.

1409
00:57:27,333 --> 00:57:28,933
The men turned up to court

1410
00:57:28,933 --> 00:57:30,166
believing that what they'd done

1411
00:57:30,166 --> 00:57:31,266
was fine because it was

1412
00:57:31,266 --> 00:57:32,933
consensual. On the very first

1413
00:57:32,933 --> 00:57:34,433
day of the trial, the judge,

1414
00:57:34,433 --> 00:57:35,933
whose name was Judge Rant, said,

1415
00:57:36,066 --> 00:57:37,666
I'm not going to allow consent

1416
00:57:37,666 --> 00:57:40,266
as a defense in this case. And

1417
00:57:40,266 --> 00:57:41,300
that was the first time that had

1418
00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:43,666
been said. And the men were

1419
00:57:43,666 --> 00:57:45,000
screwed because they'd already

1420
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,366
admitted to what they'd done,

1421
00:57:46,433 --> 00:57:47,666
but they said it was consensual.

1422
00:57:47,666 --> 00:57:49,533
That was their defense. So their

1423
00:57:49,533 --> 00:57:50,700
only other option was to plead

1424
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:51,933
guilty to try and get lighter

1425
00:57:51,933 --> 00:57:53,533
sentences. And instead, the

1426
00:57:53,533 --> 00:57:55,566
judge gave them the harshest

1427
00:57:55,566 --> 00:57:57,166
sentences that he could. They

1428
00:57:57,166 --> 00:57:58,266
were sent to prison as sex

1429
00:57:58,266 --> 00:57:59,666
offenders, the ones who had

1430
00:57:59,666 --> 00:58:01,133
public jobs, lost their pension

1431
00:58:01,133 --> 00:58:03,066
in their homes as well. Some of

1432
00:58:03,066 --> 00:58:04,533
them were locked up 23 hours a

1433
00:58:04,533 --> 00:58:06,400
day. And that was known as the

1434
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,433
Spanner Trial. And

1435
00:58:08,433 --> 00:58:09,633
unfortunately, that law is still

1436
00:58:09,633 --> 00:58:11,300
on the books. You can consent to

1437
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:12,633
an injury in this country if

1438
00:58:12,633 --> 00:58:14,433
it's for entertainment, if it's

1439
00:58:14,433 --> 00:58:16,066
for medical reasons, if it's for

1440
00:58:16,066 --> 00:58:17,833
body decoration, if it's for

1441
00:58:17,833 --> 00:58:19,266
sport. But the one thing you

1442
00:58:19,266 --> 00:58:21,666
can't do is consent if it's for

1443
00:58:21,666 --> 00:58:24,166
sexual pleasure. The hoist opens

1444
00:58:24,166 --> 00:58:27,766
up and it is allowing,

1445
00:58:27,833 --> 00:58:32,000
facilitating gay sex in a club,

1446
00:58:33,533 --> 00:58:36,533
gay sex involving more than two

1447
00:58:36,533 --> 00:58:39,933
people, and gay sex involving

1448
00:58:39,933 --> 00:58:42,733
consensual sadomasochism, which

1449
00:58:42,733 --> 00:58:44,933
not long previously had been

1450
00:58:44,933 --> 00:58:46,566
declared illegal by the courts.

1451
00:58:46,566 --> 00:58:50,033
It was a very brave move to open

1452
00:58:50,033 --> 00:58:52,533
the hoist. And in many ways, you

1453
00:58:52,533 --> 00:58:54,966
could say that it was a defiant

1454
00:58:54,966 --> 00:58:58,266
protest against the way in which

1455
00:58:58,266 --> 00:59:00,500
the police and courts were

1456
00:59:00,500 --> 00:59:02,533
criminalizing same sex behavior.

1457
00:59:03,566 --> 00:59:05,166
The hoist got away with it

1458
00:59:05,166 --> 00:59:07,566
because at the time, the LGBT

1459
00:59:07,566 --> 00:59:10,333
community was highly politicized

1460
00:59:10,333 --> 00:59:13,666
and highly mobilized. And to be

1461
00:59:13,666 --> 00:59:15,433
honest, the establishment were

1462
00:59:15,433 --> 00:59:18,566
afraid of us. They knew that we

1463
00:59:18,566 --> 00:59:20,433
could create hell, that we could

1464
00:59:20,433 --> 00:59:23,033
give them bad PR. So the police

1465
00:59:23,033 --> 00:59:25,300
sort of stepped back and began

1466
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:27,666
to be much more circumspect

1467
00:59:27,666 --> 00:59:29,266
about when and how they

1468
00:59:29,266 --> 00:59:31,400
intervened. And that's the

1469
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:33,766
context in which the hoist was

1470
00:59:33,766 --> 00:59:36,300
able to get away with public sex

1471
00:59:36,300 --> 00:59:40,300
on the premises. I hope that we

1472
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:41,966
made a little contribution to

1473
00:59:41,966 --> 00:59:45,066
make Britain a fairer and a

1474
00:59:45,066 --> 00:59:47,100
better place for gay men who are

1475
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:50,733
into BDSM and fetish. To feel

1476
00:59:50,733 --> 00:59:53,100
able only to have sex in the

1477
00:59:53,100 --> 00:59:55,500
dark says something about who

1478
00:59:55,500 --> 00:59:57,466
you are as a person. And it goes

1479
00:59:57,466 --> 01:00:00,400
back to that central core of

1480
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,700
shame and naughtiness and

1481
01:00:03,700 --> 01:00:05,633
getting away with it. There was

1482
01:00:05,633 --> 01:00:08,866
this terrible air of enforced

1483
01:00:08,866 --> 01:00:10,566
secrecy and it was kind of cloak

1484
01:00:10,566 --> 01:00:11,500
and dagger.

1485
01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:16,300
And it's good that we've moved

1486
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:20,333
on a bit from that. Hearing and

1487
01:00:20,333 --> 01:00:21,233
seeing people enjoying

1488
01:00:21,233 --> 01:00:22,733
themselves is the biggest turn

1489
01:00:22,733 --> 01:00:25,166
on, I think. So, you know,

1490
01:00:25,266 --> 01:00:27,366
having the opportunity of

1491
01:00:27,366 --> 01:00:28,500
spending time with other people

1492
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:30,433
who are kinky is really cool.

1493
01:00:31,733 --> 01:00:33,366
It's very limited who can go

1494
01:00:33,366 --> 01:00:35,500
there. And if you're not a gay

1495
01:00:35,500 --> 01:00:39,400
man, then you're excluded. As

1496
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,866
someone who runs a lot of and

1497
01:00:41,866 --> 01:00:43,066
wanted to do sex positive

1498
01:00:43,066 --> 01:00:44,500
places, and Club Fuck as I ran

1499
01:00:44,500 --> 01:00:46,466
for six years, it was open for

1500
01:00:46,466 --> 01:00:49,600
everyone. The name was Club

1501
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,266
Fuck, so it was a fuck club. You

1502
01:00:51,266 --> 01:00:52,466
know, it wasn't a nose job,

1503
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:54,600
hiding away from it. It was a

1504
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:55,466
place where a lot of people

1505
01:00:55,466 --> 01:00:57,566
could come, you know, because

1506
01:00:57,566 --> 01:00:58,266
when you go through

1507
01:00:58,266 --> 01:00:59,400
transitioning and things like

1508
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:00,900
that, your sexuality might

1509
01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:04,466
change as well, meaning where do

1510
01:01:04,466 --> 01:01:06,866
you go and learn if it's not

1511
01:01:06,866 --> 01:01:07,966
belonging to the norm that

1512
01:01:07,966 --> 01:01:09,066
you're brought up with

1513
01:01:09,066 --> 01:01:13,266
understanding? But so this is

1514
01:01:13,266 --> 01:01:14,533
also the problem. Because we

1515
01:01:14,533 --> 01:01:17,666
were open to a variety, it

1516
01:01:17,666 --> 01:01:19,566
minimized the way the box is so

1517
01:01:19,566 --> 01:01:21,866
much. So everyone who came

1518
01:01:21,866 --> 01:01:23,466
almost complained that it wasn't

1519
01:01:23,466 --> 01:01:24,933
what they wanted or, you know,

1520
01:01:24,933 --> 01:01:26,200
they didn't find the people they

1521
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,366
were attracted to. I don't have

1522
01:01:28,366 --> 01:01:30,466
to run something if people don't

1523
01:01:30,466 --> 01:01:33,333
love it. And of course, like

1524
01:01:33,333 --> 01:01:35,766
anyone who have ever done in a

1525
01:01:35,766 --> 01:01:37,166
club and things like that, as

1526
01:01:37,166 --> 01:01:38,500
soon as you stop something,

1527
01:01:39,333 --> 01:01:41,100
people are like, oh my gosh, I

1528
01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:42,800
loved it. Oh, I'm so sad. I

1529
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,133
missed it. And yeah, and it's

1530
01:01:45,133 --> 01:01:46,100
not there anymore.

1531
01:01:48,766 --> 01:01:50,033
I know of trans guys who have

1532
01:01:50,033 --> 01:01:51,166
been to the hoist, but they all

1533
01:01:51,166 --> 01:01:53,733
have to go stealth. Yeah, go

1534
01:01:53,733 --> 01:01:55,666
with a mate, go with a gay guy

1535
01:01:55,666 --> 01:01:58,100
who's OK, take them and keep a

1536
01:01:58,100 --> 01:02:00,433
bloody close eye that they don't

1537
01:02:00,433 --> 01:02:03,700
get into trouble. My name is

1538
01:02:03,700 --> 01:02:05,466
Kerry Cronenwet. When I stayed

1539
01:02:05,466 --> 01:02:08,200
in London, I stayed at a squad

1540
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,066
that was around the corner from

1541
01:02:10,066 --> 01:02:13,500
the hoist. And one of my friends

1542
01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:18,700
that lived there, Drake, would

1543
01:02:18,700 --> 01:02:20,800
go off on adventures to the

1544
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,533
hoist and sometimes come home

1545
01:02:23,533 --> 01:02:25,866
with stories. And I decided I

1546
01:02:25,866 --> 01:02:31,833
wanted to go. And so, yeah, so I

1547
01:02:31,833 --> 01:02:35,866
went. He had to lend me a pair

1548
01:02:35,866 --> 01:02:38,300
of leather trousers. He dressed

1549
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:42,333
me up and we walked over to the

1550
01:02:42,333 --> 01:02:43,766
hoist. There was a there was a

1551
01:02:43,766 --> 01:02:45,700
bit of a question. I was

1552
01:02:45,700 --> 01:02:47,800
actually when I went, it was

1553
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,366
before I transitioned and I

1554
01:02:51,366 --> 01:02:53,466
sometimes passed as a man, but

1555
01:02:53,466 --> 01:02:56,933
not with any consistency. So

1556
01:02:56,933 --> 01:02:57,933
there was a bit of a question

1557
01:02:57,933 --> 01:02:59,000
whether I'd make it past the

1558
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,666
door. I was nervous. I was

1559
01:03:01,666 --> 01:03:03,900
nervous that I would get sort

1560
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:09,166
of, you know, humiliated, stoned

1561
01:03:09,166 --> 01:03:11,500
at the door or something like

1562
01:03:11,500 --> 01:03:13,166
that when my true identity was

1563
01:03:13,166 --> 01:03:16,466
revealed. Yeah, but I made it

1564
01:03:16,466 --> 01:03:19,400
inside and got to see what the

1565
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:21,000
hoist was all about. There was

1566
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,266
one guy that was on to me and

1567
01:03:23,266 --> 01:03:26,400
who made some remark. He called

1568
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:28,100
me a tomcat. He said something

1569
01:03:28,100 --> 01:03:31,833
like, it's a tomcat. I didn't

1570
01:03:31,833 --> 01:03:33,366
play with anyone that night. I

1571
01:03:33,366 --> 01:03:34,866
didn't and I didn't actually go

1572
01:03:34,866 --> 01:03:37,266
there expecting to. I kind of I

1573
01:03:37,266 --> 01:03:38,500
just wanted to see the place.

1574
01:03:39,566 --> 01:03:44,500
But I was I was too shy to sort

1575
01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:47,166
of try to interact with people.

1576
01:03:47,433 --> 01:03:48,966
I mean, I think in general, like

1577
01:03:48,966 --> 01:03:50,700
on a theoretical level, like,

1578
01:03:50,866 --> 01:03:53,466
yeah, I think that it would be

1579
01:03:53,466 --> 01:03:55,033
nice to do away with door

1580
01:03:55,033 --> 01:03:57,266
policies like that and have

1581
01:03:57,266 --> 01:03:59,866
there be more freedom. In more

1582
01:03:59,866 --> 01:04:02,866
trans inclusive spaces. But I

1583
01:04:02,866 --> 01:04:06,400
must say that at the time, I

1584
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,600
wasn't I was kind of excited

1585
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:12,400
about the idea of being in men

1586
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,533
only places. And that's part of

1587
01:04:14,533 --> 01:04:16,400
the attraction. I still like to

1588
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,633
go to sex clubs now and then.

1589
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,466
But the excitement of the

1590
01:04:21,466 --> 01:04:23,000
infiltration has kind of worn

1591
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,933
off because I pass this mail and

1592
01:04:25,933 --> 01:04:27,066
it's not.

1593
01:04:31,133 --> 01:04:33,000
It's it's I mean, just that

1594
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,733
angle of the excitement isn't

1595
01:04:34,733 --> 01:04:37,966
there. Looking back on it now,

1596
01:04:37,966 --> 01:04:40,566
it doesn't seem like such a big

1597
01:04:40,566 --> 01:04:42,100
deal. But at the time, it was

1598
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:45,966
like, well, I made it inside the

1599
01:04:45,966 --> 01:04:51,566
police. I am like Sandra. Also

1600
01:04:51,566 --> 01:04:53,000
none of that stuff because it's

1601
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,966
easy to remember. I'm a trans

1602
01:04:55,966 --> 01:04:59,400
man pushing 50 who has been

1603
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,366
around on various different

1604
01:05:01,366 --> 01:05:03,566
scenes for a long, long, long

1605
01:05:03,566 --> 01:05:07,166
time. Around trans issues,

1606
01:05:07,766 --> 01:05:08,666
certainly things have changed.

1607
01:05:09,266 --> 01:05:10,566
Even, you know, my attitude

1608
01:05:10,566 --> 01:05:12,700
changed over the years from

1609
01:05:12,700 --> 01:05:17,000
being wary and nervous to it now

1610
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,200
being relatively accepted. Not

1611
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,566
fully. There's still pockets of

1612
01:05:21,566 --> 01:05:23,300
people who will have an attitude

1613
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:26,266
and a problem. And that can

1614
01:05:26,266 --> 01:05:28,166
still affect you. No matter how

1615
01:05:28,166 --> 01:05:29,766
old you are, no matter how happy

1616
01:05:29,766 --> 01:05:31,166
and comfortable you are, you can

1617
01:05:31,166 --> 01:05:32,833
still get affected by people's

1618
01:05:32,833 --> 01:05:34,500
bad attitude, the wrong

1619
01:05:34,500 --> 01:05:36,566
comments. And it will just set

1620
01:05:36,566 --> 01:05:40,800
you back. But I think BDSM

1621
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,633
community is like more open to

1622
01:05:44,633 --> 01:05:48,566
trans gender people of both or

1623
01:05:48,566 --> 01:05:50,833
whatever gender expression just

1624
01:05:50,833 --> 01:05:55,266
because. You play around well,

1625
01:05:55,833 --> 01:05:58,600
and so therefore you will get a

1626
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:00,966
butched eye who is a daddy who

1627
01:06:00,966 --> 01:06:03,100
will not have a problem so much

1628
01:06:03,100 --> 01:06:04,700
with people who transition to

1629
01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:08,400
male and female. You will get

1630
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:11,733
gay men who have been a puppy.

1631
01:06:12,266 --> 01:06:13,166
And so therefore they're not

1632
01:06:13,166 --> 01:06:14,866
going to have an attitude about

1633
01:06:14,866 --> 01:06:17,766
a gender expression as much. And

1634
01:06:17,766 --> 01:06:20,000
that's good and that is going to

1635
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:21,000
get better and better,

1636
01:06:21,300 --> 01:06:22,433
especially with younger people

1637
01:06:22,433 --> 01:06:24,866
coming in, more acceptance, more

1638
01:06:24,866 --> 01:06:28,300
openness. I just like kinkier

1639
01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:30,566
stuff. So that's why I do it.

1640
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:31,933
You know, if I didn't like it,

1641
01:06:31,933 --> 01:06:36,066
I'd stop. Well, the computer has

1642
01:06:36,066 --> 01:06:39,866
made a huge difference. And it's

1643
01:06:39,866 --> 01:06:41,166
made a lot of positive things,

1644
01:06:41,166 --> 01:06:42,266
but there's a number of negative

1645
01:06:42,266 --> 01:06:44,200
things that it's done as well.

1646
01:06:46,966 --> 01:06:48,100
When you have all these

1647
01:06:48,100 --> 01:06:49,700
technology changes, internet

1648
01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:51,000
driven technology changes,

1649
01:06:51,433 --> 01:06:53,266
people started to go less out.

1650
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:55,966
OK, I'm Ashley Ryder. I'm a porn

1651
01:06:55,966 --> 01:06:58,000
actor. I've been in porn since

1652
01:06:58,000 --> 01:06:59,800
the age of 24. If I'm honest, I

1653
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:01,700
haven't been to this venue for a

1654
01:07:01,700 --> 01:07:05,166
year. And that's not because I

1655
01:07:05,166 --> 01:07:06,733
haven't wanted to. It's just

1656
01:07:06,733 --> 01:07:09,100
because I haven't needed to.

1657
01:07:09,366 --> 01:07:10,400
When you're at home and you've

1658
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:11,466
got the internet and everything

1659
01:07:11,466 --> 01:07:13,466
else, that makes it so much

1660
01:07:13,466 --> 01:07:14,966
easier. I don't think we even

1661
01:07:14,966 --> 01:07:16,566
get asked for bits of paper for

1662
01:07:16,566 --> 01:07:18,100
telephone numbers as much as we

1663
01:07:18,100 --> 01:07:20,033
used to do. The internet's had a

1664
01:07:20,033 --> 01:07:23,900
profound impact on the way that

1665
01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:25,666
all bars operate, not only the

1666
01:07:25,666 --> 01:07:28,066
hoist, absolutely. At one time,

1667
01:07:28,333 --> 01:07:30,300
you would have to come out and

1668
01:07:30,300 --> 01:07:32,500
physically go to a bar or a club

1669
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:35,133
to meet somebody. And then you

1670
01:07:35,133 --> 01:07:36,766
would talk or whatever. If you

1671
01:07:36,766 --> 01:07:38,500
wanted to go home or whatever.

1672
01:07:38,833 --> 01:07:40,433
Now people can sit at home in

1673
01:07:40,433 --> 01:07:42,666
the luxury of the comfort of

1674
01:07:42,666 --> 01:07:44,466
their home, you know, with their

1675
01:07:44,466 --> 01:07:47,566
pyjamas on if they want to, and

1676
01:07:47,566 --> 01:07:51,000
pick up on lines. It's like fast

1677
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:53,266
food, isn't it? You know, you

1678
01:07:53,266 --> 01:07:54,900
can go and grind her and it can

1679
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:57,166
sometimes be super fast. Other

1680
01:07:57,166 --> 01:07:58,266
times you're having to call a

1681
01:07:58,266 --> 01:07:59,500
manager over and say, hang on a

1682
01:07:59,500 --> 01:08:01,300
second, why has this taken so

1683
01:08:01,300 --> 01:08:02,933
long? If you're always online

1684
01:08:02,933 --> 01:08:04,433
dialing up exactly what you

1685
01:08:04,433 --> 01:08:06,700
want, you've just fed a diet of

1686
01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:07,900
reinforcing what you already

1687
01:08:07,900 --> 01:08:10,000
know you like. People become

1688
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:11,500
really, really specific with

1689
01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:14,100
what they want. I mean, that's

1690
01:08:14,100 --> 01:08:15,033
one of the things I've noticed,

1691
01:08:15,100 --> 01:08:16,866
because with the social sites,

1692
01:08:17,066 --> 01:08:19,500
you can say exactly what your

1693
01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:23,300
fetish is. That down to, you

1694
01:08:23,300 --> 01:08:25,700
know, the last of me new time.

1695
01:08:26,866 --> 01:08:29,066
Whereas in the old days, you saw

1696
01:08:29,066 --> 01:08:31,600
somebody you liked, they fitted

1697
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:35,100
the bill, you met them, you had

1698
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:37,766
an evening. It might not be

1699
01:08:37,766 --> 01:08:39,300
perfect, but you'd find

1700
01:08:39,300 --> 01:08:40,633
something that was good about

1701
01:08:40,633 --> 01:08:42,866
them and you might even have a

1702
01:08:42,866 --> 01:08:44,433
lifelong friend. It seems

1703
01:08:44,433 --> 01:08:46,866
everybody is doing the internet,

1704
01:08:47,166 --> 01:08:48,366
but they have to have the fancy

1705
01:08:48,366 --> 01:08:51,266
phones and the right apps. And

1706
01:08:51,266 --> 01:08:53,633
if you've not got the money or

1707
01:08:53,633 --> 01:08:56,600
the access, it actually becomes

1708
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,200
harder. A lot of people from

1709
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,500
many generations don't like the

1710
01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:03,500
hostile element of the internet.

1711
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:05,866
You know, looking at someone's

1712
01:09:05,866 --> 01:09:07,233
photograph, you can't tell their

1713
01:09:07,233 --> 01:09:08,966
personality from that. Yeah, you

1714
01:09:08,966 --> 01:09:10,333
can see they've ranted and raved

1715
01:09:10,333 --> 01:09:12,000
about a load of bullshit on

1716
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,433
their profile information. But

1717
01:09:14,433 --> 01:09:15,399
you know, you don't know what

1718
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:16,166
they're going to be like until

1719
01:09:16,166 --> 01:09:18,000
they show up. I'm not on any

1720
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:19,766
website. I don't have a profile.

1721
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,833
It doesn't work for me. The web

1722
01:09:21,833 --> 01:09:23,566
allows people to hide behind

1723
01:09:23,566 --> 01:09:27,566
facades. And I've always

1724
01:09:27,566 --> 01:09:30,533
maintained that you can't tell

1725
01:09:30,533 --> 01:09:31,966
on the internet if somebody has

1726
01:09:31,966 --> 01:09:34,633
bad breath. There was a great

1727
01:09:34,633 --> 01:09:37,133
cartoon I saw in an American

1728
01:09:37,133 --> 01:09:38,899
magazine where a superhero

1729
01:09:38,899 --> 01:09:40,466
character goes back to the

1730
01:09:40,466 --> 01:09:43,100
Castro in the summer of 1977.

1731
01:09:43,833 --> 01:09:45,100
And people are walking up and

1732
01:09:45,100 --> 01:09:48,333
down and he's thinking in the

1733
01:09:48,333 --> 01:09:51,066
thought bubble, oh, these

1734
01:09:51,066 --> 01:09:53,100
incredible horny, handsome men

1735
01:09:53,100 --> 01:09:54,933
with their big moustaches and

1736
01:09:54,933 --> 01:09:56,866
tight shorts and muscles and

1737
01:09:56,866 --> 01:10:00,400
leather gear. How on earth am I

1738
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:02,133
going to meet them? Because the

1739
01:10:02,133 --> 01:10:03,300
internet hasn't been invented

1740
01:10:03,300 --> 01:10:06,600
yet. But in the olden days,

1741
01:10:07,133 --> 01:10:09,100
hello was the sexiest thing that

1742
01:10:09,100 --> 01:10:10,366
you could say to somebody

1743
01:10:10,366 --> 01:10:11,300
because you could have a

1744
01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:13,200
conversation. So we now have

1745
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:14,400
this situation where we have

1746
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:15,866
guys who still come to the

1747
01:10:15,866 --> 01:10:18,100
hoist, but they'll be on their

1748
01:10:18,100 --> 01:10:20,800
mobile phone on a number of

1749
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,000
apps. They'll use a number of

1750
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:23,800
apps while they're in there,

1751
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:25,133
which I find very amusing

1752
01:10:25,133 --> 01:10:28,133
really. The notion that you can

1753
01:10:28,133 --> 01:10:29,600
only talk to people because you

1754
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,300
want to have sex with them is

1755
01:10:31,300 --> 01:10:33,300
something that maybe might

1756
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:34,600
pertain to some of the younger

1757
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:36,466
generation. I think social media

1758
01:10:36,466 --> 01:10:38,433
and the internet have given so

1759
01:10:38,433 --> 01:10:40,900
much more information to people

1760
01:10:40,900 --> 01:10:42,866
that there's no mystique

1761
01:10:42,866 --> 01:10:44,800
anymore. I think nothing

1762
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,666
replaces the fact that you can

1763
01:10:47,666 --> 01:10:49,866
meet someone face to face. I

1764
01:10:49,866 --> 01:10:51,400
prefer to come out and socialise

1765
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:53,300
rather than sit at home staring

1766
01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:55,600
at my phone and an app. They

1767
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,000
might tell me that my nearest

1768
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,400
homosexual is 100 yards away. My

1769
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:01,600
nearest homosexual is that I

1770
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,400
like her right here. I don't

1771
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,066
need an app to tell me that. I

1772
01:11:06,066 --> 01:11:07,133
can just come here.

1773
01:11:09,766 --> 01:11:11,000
Don't worry, I'll hold you up in

1774
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:12,800
Jack of Olives. Come on, I've

1775
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:14,600
worked here. Start off glass

1776
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,866
collecting now. I always say

1777
01:11:16,866 --> 01:11:20,233
this is the dark side of the

1778
01:11:20,233 --> 01:11:21,833
sleep at the club, because you

1779
01:11:21,833 --> 01:11:22,766
see all the nooks and crannies

1780
01:11:22,766 --> 01:11:24,900
and the mess. After all the cats

1781
01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:26,166
that have had fun after the

1782
01:11:26,166 --> 01:11:28,200
weekend, this is the glamorous

1783
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,166
side. One thing about me is that

1784
01:11:32,166 --> 01:11:33,933
I've got a high standard to make

1785
01:11:33,933 --> 01:11:36,166
sure they've got no bacteria, no

1786
01:11:36,166 --> 01:11:37,966
germs lying around for them. I

1787
01:11:37,966 --> 01:11:40,333
used to be a customer from Dear

1788
01:11:40,333 --> 01:11:41,700
War when the club opened. I

1789
01:11:41,700 --> 01:11:42,666
spent every night and year when

1790
01:11:42,666 --> 01:11:44,466
the club was open. They'd say,

1791
01:11:44,566 --> 01:11:47,166
alright, we'll give you a job. I

1792
01:11:47,166 --> 01:11:48,466
love being by myself in the

1793
01:11:48,466 --> 01:11:51,666
club. I love my job. I really

1794
01:11:51,666 --> 01:11:53,066
do. I like my job. I keep saying

1795
01:11:53,066 --> 01:11:53,866
to myself, I'll get too old for

1796
01:11:53,866 --> 01:11:56,000
this, but I don't. I wouldn't

1797
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,900
have it any other way. I'm 42

1798
01:11:57,900 --> 01:11:59,700
this year. I'm from the Saloniss

1799
01:11:59,700 --> 01:12:03,300
when I'm 62. We're all one big

1800
01:12:03,300 --> 01:12:04,433
happy family in here.

1801
01:12:07,100 --> 01:12:08,233
I've probably somewhere naked in

1802
01:12:08,233 --> 01:12:10,600
a club in London somewhere, or

1803
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:11,900
in my underwear with my legs

1804
01:12:11,900 --> 01:12:14,766
wrapped around my neck. I've got

1805
01:12:14,766 --> 01:12:16,200
no shame. I've got a high sex

1806
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,366
drive. I'm in my juxtap here. It

1807
01:12:19,366 --> 01:12:21,866
has been known that I've

1808
01:12:21,866 --> 01:12:23,766
disappeared in a corner, or

1809
01:12:23,766 --> 01:12:25,433
disappeared in a sleep. At least

1810
01:12:25,433 --> 01:12:26,700
I know where I am.

1811
01:12:30,366 --> 01:12:32,433
It's changed a lot over the

1812
01:12:32,433 --> 01:12:34,666
years. Literally it has changed.

1813
01:12:36,333 --> 01:12:39,033
It's just changed. Customers

1814
01:12:39,033 --> 01:12:41,733
have gone. New breed of gear

1815
01:12:41,733 --> 01:12:43,000
guys have come out. They've gone

1816
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:45,666
back onto the scene. The leather

1817
01:12:45,666 --> 01:12:46,733
scene has changed. The rubber

1818
01:12:46,733 --> 01:12:48,633
scene has changed. They don't

1819
01:12:48,633 --> 01:12:49,700
have a lot of leather guys

1820
01:12:49,700 --> 01:12:51,000
around now. I don't know if

1821
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:52,866
they've moved away or what. You

1822
01:12:52,866 --> 01:12:53,766
don't see a lot of leather guys

1823
01:12:53,766 --> 01:12:55,500
unless they have a big event on.

1824
01:12:56,166 --> 01:12:57,466
They would be naked in

1825
01:12:57,466 --> 01:12:59,200
underwear. Sporty gear has come

1826
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,366
into fashion now. The classic

1827
01:13:01,366 --> 01:13:03,333
Tom, Tomofin, Leatherman image

1828
01:13:03,333 --> 01:13:06,466
that was so important when we

1829
01:13:06,466 --> 01:13:09,833
first opened, that's moved on

1830
01:13:09,833 --> 01:13:12,133
now. That's very much moved on.

1831
01:13:12,666 --> 01:13:17,133
We had the option to either just

1832
01:13:17,133 --> 01:13:20,300
not move with the times, and get

1833
01:13:20,300 --> 01:13:22,566
left behind and close, or move

1834
01:13:22,566 --> 01:13:24,366
with the times and adapt, which

1835
01:13:24,366 --> 01:13:25,766
is what we've done. The younger

1836
01:13:25,766 --> 01:13:27,066
people have got different

1837
01:13:27,066 --> 01:13:29,700
fetishes now. The clubs had to

1838
01:13:29,700 --> 01:13:33,566
embrace naked sex, underwear,

1839
01:13:34,166 --> 01:13:36,700
sports gear and all these other

1840
01:13:36,700 --> 01:13:39,300
things that we had no concept of

1841
01:13:39,300 --> 01:13:42,266
when we started. The American

1842
01:13:42,266 --> 01:13:44,000
jock images come over heavily,

1843
01:13:44,733 --> 01:13:45,700
and I think that's where the

1844
01:13:45,700 --> 01:13:47,200
sportswear comes from. I like

1845
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,333
sportswear because you've got

1846
01:13:50,333 --> 01:13:51,300
the colours you can play with,

1847
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,400
you've got the fabrics. There's

1848
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:54,833
lots of technical fabrics that

1849
01:13:54,833 --> 01:13:55,700
are coming out at the moment,

1850
01:13:55,766 --> 01:13:57,366
which are always fun. It's a

1851
01:13:57,366 --> 01:13:59,266
little more fashion-y, and it

1852
01:13:59,266 --> 01:14:01,666
feels younger. I guess it comes

1853
01:14:01,666 --> 01:14:02,900
down from the whole Abercrombie

1854
01:14:02,900 --> 01:14:05,233
and Fitch ideology. I think also

1855
01:14:05,233 --> 01:14:08,266
it's financially cheaper to wear

1856
01:14:08,266 --> 01:14:10,066
sportswear. Not always, depends

1857
01:14:10,066 --> 01:14:11,700
on the brand you're wearing, but

1858
01:14:11,700 --> 01:14:15,666
for someone who is, say, 26, and

1859
01:14:15,666 --> 01:14:17,933
is at college or university, and

1860
01:14:17,933 --> 01:14:19,500
doesn't have the income to be

1861
01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:22,266
able to spend £1,000 on a full

1862
01:14:22,266 --> 01:14:26,633
leather outfit, to go into a

1863
01:14:26,633 --> 01:14:28,733
sportswear shop and pick up a

1864
01:14:28,733 --> 01:14:30,233
vest and football shorts and

1865
01:14:30,233 --> 01:14:31,666
football socks, and come out and

1866
01:14:31,666 --> 01:14:34,066
only spend £10 and still be

1867
01:14:34,066 --> 01:14:36,200
allowed to come in, I think

1868
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:38,433
there's economic value to it as

1869
01:14:38,433 --> 01:14:40,000
well, which a lot of the younger

1870
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:41,066
people have picked up. Because

1871
01:14:41,066 --> 01:14:43,000
when I first started doing the

1872
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,966
leather scene, you had to wear

1873
01:14:44,966 --> 01:14:46,166
leather. No sportswear was

1874
01:14:46,166 --> 01:14:47,666
allowed, not even jeans, unless

1875
01:14:47,666 --> 01:14:49,900
they were under chaps. I see at

1876
01:14:49,900 --> 01:14:51,033
one point, at some point,

1877
01:14:51,566 --> 01:14:52,566
probably have to have diaper

1878
01:14:52,566 --> 01:14:53,966
parties, because that's what a

1879
01:14:53,966 --> 01:14:55,100
lot of the younger guys are

1880
01:14:55,100 --> 01:14:57,200
wanting to do. It's just new,

1881
01:14:57,200 --> 01:14:59,500
new finish, and I think that's

1882
01:14:59,500 --> 01:15:02,200
brilliant. The older guys, if

1883
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:04,700
they don't like it, then they'll

1884
01:15:04,700 --> 01:15:07,366
stop coming, and they have. It's

1885
01:15:07,366 --> 01:15:08,400
a generational thing,

1886
01:15:08,833 --> 01:15:11,600
generational thing. Just move

1887
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:13,700
on, and we all have to move on.

1888
01:15:14,500 --> 01:15:16,366
I remember going out when I was

1889
01:15:16,366 --> 01:15:17,966
in my twenties in leather and

1890
01:15:17,966 --> 01:15:20,866
rubber, walking the streets, and

1891
01:15:20,866 --> 01:15:23,133
gay guys would go, you're weird.

1892
01:15:24,066 --> 01:15:26,300
Twenty years later, suddenly

1893
01:15:26,300 --> 01:15:27,600
they're going, come into my gay

1894
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:29,766
club, come in. And I'm like,

1895
01:15:29,900 --> 01:15:31,700
fuck. Suddenly all these gay

1896
01:15:31,700 --> 01:15:33,100
guys are getting piercings and

1897
01:15:33,100 --> 01:15:35,700
tattoos. Before that, I was

1898
01:15:35,700 --> 01:15:37,300
never allowed to go into clubs.

1899
01:15:39,466 --> 01:15:41,266
Fifteen or twenty years ago in

1900
01:15:41,266 --> 01:15:43,600
gay bars, A, you had the law

1901
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,500
that it would be unthinkable of

1902
01:15:45,500 --> 01:15:46,766
having, for example, naked

1903
01:15:46,766 --> 01:15:49,100
events in public spaces. The law

1904
01:15:49,100 --> 01:15:52,666
has changed, and it's now much

1905
01:15:52,666 --> 01:15:54,100
more common. If you look

1906
01:15:54,100 --> 01:15:56,533
everywhere around Europe, more

1907
01:15:56,533 --> 01:15:58,666
and more bars, or the surviving

1908
01:15:58,666 --> 01:16:01,266
bars, are doing one-off naked

1909
01:16:01,266 --> 01:16:03,000
parties. Ten years ago, you used

1910
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,833
to get a single naked guy at a

1911
01:16:05,833 --> 01:16:08,666
fetish club event, and he'd

1912
01:16:08,666 --> 01:16:12,000
appear for a little space of

1913
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:13,266
time, and then he'd disappear

1914
01:16:13,266 --> 01:16:14,566
again. You'd get him here in the

1915
01:16:14,566 --> 01:16:16,066
hoisted, he'd run around with a

1916
01:16:16,066 --> 01:16:16,700
chain around his head, and he'd

1917
01:16:16,700 --> 01:16:18,200
be completely naked, didn't he?

1918
01:16:18,333 --> 01:16:20,266
And it would be like everyone

1919
01:16:20,266 --> 01:16:21,633
was shocked, even in our

1920
01:16:21,633 --> 01:16:23,500
community, even on the fetish

1921
01:16:23,500 --> 01:16:25,500
scene, even us, dressed up to

1922
01:16:25,500 --> 01:16:27,233
the nines in all sorts of good

1923
01:16:27,233 --> 01:16:30,800
-as-nose warps, that nudity was

1924
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,300
a bit of a shock. Whatever goes

1925
01:16:32,300 --> 01:16:34,266
on outside those two main doors

1926
01:16:34,266 --> 01:16:35,966
doesn't mean anything when

1927
01:16:35,966 --> 01:16:37,966
you're inside here, because you

1928
01:16:37,966 --> 01:16:39,600
can be in here, and you can fist

1929
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:41,633
each other, and you can be in a

1930
01:16:41,633 --> 01:16:44,233
place where that is considered

1931
01:16:44,233 --> 01:16:47,633
normal. And I guess when I was

1932
01:16:47,633 --> 01:16:52,100
growing up, being into this kind

1933
01:16:52,100 --> 01:16:55,566
of sexual play was considered by

1934
01:16:55,566 --> 01:16:56,933
a lot of my friends and a lot of

1935
01:16:56,933 --> 01:17:00,700
my peers as not normal. And they

1936
01:17:00,700 --> 01:17:01,833
didn't understand that. They

1937
01:17:01,833 --> 01:17:03,566
didn't get why I'd want to go

1938
01:17:03,566 --> 01:17:04,966
and have promiscuous sex with

1939
01:17:04,966 --> 01:17:08,700
somebody, because they're so

1940
01:17:08,700 --> 01:17:10,000
dictated to by the

1941
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:12,200
heteronormative, that you have

1942
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,533
to go to school, find a partner,

1943
01:17:15,900 --> 01:17:19,233
get married, get a house, get a

1944
01:17:19,233 --> 01:17:21,200
dog, get children, get a car,

1945
01:17:21,566 --> 01:17:23,766
have the white picket fence, put

1946
01:17:23,766 --> 01:17:25,200
your kids through college, blah,

1947
01:17:25,400 --> 01:17:26,500
blah, blah, the heteronormative.

1948
01:17:26,766 --> 01:17:29,666
It's just, it's kind of, you

1949
01:17:29,666 --> 01:17:31,566
don't need that here. You can be

1950
01:17:31,566 --> 01:17:33,366
yourself within the fetish

1951
01:17:33,366 --> 01:17:36,900
space, and you can let go. I'm

1952
01:17:36,900 --> 01:17:38,966
not replacing something here.

1953
01:17:38,966 --> 01:17:41,300
This is my lifestyle. This is

1954
01:17:41,300 --> 01:17:42,533
where I meet my mates, and I

1955
01:17:42,533 --> 01:17:44,033
have a good time, and I have a

1956
01:17:44,033 --> 01:17:46,166
good sex as well. And I'm not

1957
01:17:46,166 --> 01:17:47,466
waiting for something else to

1958
01:17:47,466 --> 01:17:48,866
happen. And I think that's quite

1959
01:17:48,866 --> 01:17:51,200
important points to make. It's

1960
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:52,466
about personal pursuit of

1961
01:17:52,466 --> 01:17:55,233
happiness. We are witnessing,

1962
01:17:55,233 --> 01:17:59,100
sadly, an increasing quest for

1963
01:17:59,100 --> 01:18:01,366
respectability within the LGBT

1964
01:18:01,366 --> 01:18:04,366
community, particularly with the

1965
01:18:04,366 --> 01:18:05,766
push for same-sex marriage.

1966
01:18:05,766 --> 01:18:08,000
Although I support that

1967
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:10,566
campaign, I'm also quite

1968
01:18:10,566 --> 01:18:12,633
disturbed that there is an

1969
01:18:12,633 --> 01:18:15,166
increasing homogenisation,

1970
01:18:16,066 --> 01:18:19,200
conformity, and assimilationism

1971
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,200
within LGBT communities and

1972
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:24,766
cultures. There's the idea

1973
01:18:24,766 --> 01:18:27,933
that's increasingly current that

1974
01:18:27,933 --> 01:18:30,166
we have to be good gays,

1975
01:18:30,700 --> 01:18:33,200
respectable gays, the right kind

1976
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,100
of gays, if we're to win our

1977
01:18:35,100 --> 01:18:38,300
freedom. And to me, we should

1978
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:41,100
win our freedom because we are

1979
01:18:41,100 --> 01:18:43,533
human beings. All human beings

1980
01:18:43,533 --> 01:18:47,300
deserve human rights. Pure and

1981
01:18:47,300 --> 01:18:50,100
simple. When I clean the sling,

1982
01:18:50,166 --> 01:18:51,100
so I'm drinking a cup of tea, I

1983
01:18:51,100 --> 01:18:52,066
usually have alcohol in my hand,

1984
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:53,866
but it's the first time ever

1985
01:18:53,866 --> 01:18:54,866
you'll see me drinking a cup of

1986
01:18:54,866 --> 01:18:55,266
tea.

1987
01:18:58,466 --> 01:18:59,700
Which thing would be the worst?

1988
01:18:59,966 --> 01:19:03,866
Balcony. I'll do my sling. I

1989
01:19:03,866 --> 01:19:05,166
suddenly get some say about the

1990
01:19:05,166 --> 01:19:06,700
sling ones, mine, that's

1991
01:19:06,700 --> 01:19:08,900
comfortable. I've got it fixed.

1992
01:19:09,166 --> 01:19:10,366
I blew a fuse when it broke.

1993
01:19:11,966 --> 01:19:15,466
These slings do get hammered a

1994
01:19:15,466 --> 01:19:17,766
lot. You see?

1995
01:19:21,166 --> 01:19:22,766
Who knows how they can put stuff

1996
01:19:22,766 --> 01:19:24,400
upside down on these slings?

1997
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:30,100
Oof. I go through hundreds and

1998
01:19:30,100 --> 01:19:31,866
hundreds of these a week. I

1999
01:19:31,866 --> 01:19:33,666
think that if they're really

2000
01:19:33,666 --> 01:19:35,066
messy, then I know that

2001
01:19:35,066 --> 01:19:37,766
somebody's had a good time. And

2002
01:19:37,766 --> 01:19:39,300
that, really good time, and

2003
01:19:39,300 --> 01:19:40,333
that, you know what I'm saying?

2004
01:19:40,566 --> 01:19:42,200
It just makes me laugh. It does

2005
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:44,433
make me laugh. I think if this

2006
01:19:44,433 --> 01:19:46,100
sling could talk, you're very

2007
01:19:46,100 --> 01:19:48,200
interested. And the amount of

2008
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:49,400
DNA I get put on these slings

2009
01:19:49,400 --> 01:19:51,666
will probably make a human being

2010
01:19:51,666 --> 01:19:54,066
out of it. This sling's not

2011
01:19:54,066 --> 01:19:58,166
quite bad for a change. On a

2012
01:19:58,166 --> 01:19:59,100
Friday night and Saturday night,

2013
01:19:59,133 --> 01:20:00,333
on these floors, it could be

2014
01:20:00,333 --> 01:20:02,866
like an ice rink. You can't just

2015
01:20:02,866 --> 01:20:04,566
sling your gold in. But I've got

2016
01:20:04,566 --> 01:20:05,466
to show you something else what

2017
01:20:05,466 --> 01:20:07,466
I have to do. And you'll laugh.

2018
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,266
I have 2000 safety regulations.

2019
01:20:11,300 --> 01:20:13,466
It's hilarious in here. And

2020
01:20:13,466 --> 01:20:14,666
that, when the clubs are open,

2021
01:20:15,333 --> 01:20:18,200
once I've cleaned it, I check

2022
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:21,166
all of the beads, like the

2023
01:20:21,166 --> 01:20:22,666
hooks, what's up there, make

2024
01:20:22,666 --> 01:20:23,866
sure they haven't come out.

2025
01:20:24,166 --> 01:20:25,700
You've got to laugh at this, and

2026
01:20:25,700 --> 01:20:27,666
I'll probably get throttled.

2027
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:29,466
I've got to literally lie there

2028
01:20:29,466 --> 01:20:31,666
in the sling and make sure it's

2029
01:20:31,666 --> 01:20:32,733
the right height and the

2030
01:20:32,733 --> 01:20:36,066
right... make sure none of the

2031
01:20:36,066 --> 01:20:37,466
straps are in the wrong place,

2032
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:39,033
you see? I've got to test

2033
01:20:39,033 --> 01:20:41,833
everything in this place. It's

2034
01:20:41,833 --> 01:20:43,566
part of the job. I'm praying to

2035
01:20:43,566 --> 01:20:44,566
God that all the tests have fun

2036
01:20:44,566 --> 01:20:45,600
in here. You know what I'm

2037
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:47,200
saying? I always pray to God

2038
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:49,833
that they come in, get what they

2039
01:20:49,833 --> 01:20:51,066
want, and leave a nice smile on

2040
01:20:51,066 --> 01:20:52,666
their face. I am one of the

2041
01:20:52,666 --> 01:20:53,766
characters of the club as well.

2042
01:20:53,900 --> 01:20:54,800
You probably got told that

2043
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,766
before you met me. I'm one of

2044
01:20:56,766 --> 01:20:59,533
the characters. I know I am a

2045
01:20:59,533 --> 01:21:01,333
character in here. Some of the

2046
01:21:01,333 --> 01:21:02,366
customers call me the local bike

2047
01:21:02,366 --> 01:21:05,166
and tramp. Just as I got caught

2048
01:21:05,166 --> 01:21:06,800
having sex with a 75-year-old

2049
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,066
one day in the club, I felt

2050
01:21:09,066 --> 01:21:10,166
sorry for him. I went, here's

2051
01:21:10,166 --> 01:21:11,166
the game, man. You've got needs.

2052
01:21:12,666 --> 01:21:13,900
And I gave him what he wanted.

2053
01:21:13,900 --> 01:21:15,600
And you know, I was in and he

2054
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,533
left happy. The hoist was this

2055
01:21:18,533 --> 01:21:21,233
glorious, irreverent,

2056
01:21:21,766 --> 01:21:24,166
sacrilegious queer space for

2057
01:21:24,166 --> 01:21:27,500
perverts, deviants, faggots,

2058
01:21:28,033 --> 01:21:29,633
dissidents. The people who

2059
01:21:29,633 --> 01:21:31,900
didn't fit in to the nice,

2060
01:21:32,166 --> 01:21:34,366
squeaky clean image that so many

2061
01:21:34,366 --> 01:21:35,866
gay people wanted to cultivate.

2062
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:38,666
It was the place for the sexual

2063
01:21:38,666 --> 01:21:40,633
outlaw. I wouldn't say the hoist

2064
01:21:40,633 --> 01:21:41,900
has changed. The hoist has

2065
01:21:41,900 --> 01:21:43,233
always been here. The hoist is

2066
01:21:43,233 --> 01:21:45,600
one of those kind of amazing,

2067
01:21:46,233 --> 01:21:47,100
comfortable places that you

2068
01:21:47,100 --> 01:21:49,400
would go into. Sneaky, sexy,

2069
01:21:49,633 --> 01:21:52,466
dirty wee hole. But Fox Hall has

2070
01:21:52,466 --> 01:21:54,100
changed. Gentrification, we've

2071
01:21:54,100 --> 01:21:55,400
got the American Embassy up the

2072
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:57,433
road. People are moving in. This

2073
01:21:57,433 --> 01:22:00,266
area of London was probably the

2074
01:22:00,266 --> 01:22:03,800
last area in Zone 1, the central

2075
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:08,466
area, that really started to be

2076
01:22:08,466 --> 01:22:09,800
developed. It's become very,

2077
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:11,066
very popular. They've started

2078
01:22:11,066 --> 01:22:12,266
building a lot of flats.

2079
01:22:12,500 --> 01:22:13,666
Supermarkets have been moving

2080
01:22:13,666 --> 01:22:15,600
in. So it's not the slightly run

2081
01:22:15,600 --> 01:22:17,600
-down, cheap area now. Gay

2082
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:19,733
places in Box Hill, I think, are

2083
01:22:19,733 --> 01:22:22,733
going to close one by one once

2084
01:22:22,733 --> 01:22:25,066
all this new regeneration takes

2085
01:22:25,066 --> 01:22:27,100
place. And I think it'll be

2086
01:22:27,100 --> 01:22:28,600
time's up for the hoist. Because

2087
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:30,533
of the gentrification, it's like

2088
01:22:30,533 --> 01:22:31,966
everywhere else. It's pushing

2089
01:22:31,966 --> 01:22:34,466
out the people from the outside,

2090
01:22:34,900 --> 01:22:36,700
the outer fringes, the dirty wee

2091
01:22:36,700 --> 01:22:38,366
people. And gentrification

2092
01:22:38,366 --> 01:22:40,500
generally kills an area. You get

2093
01:22:40,500 --> 01:22:41,900
middle-class people in that are

2094
01:22:41,900 --> 01:22:43,600
wanting to do what they want

2095
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:46,700
with their expensive houses. And

2096
01:22:46,700 --> 01:22:48,900
anybody that's arty or left-wing

2097
01:22:48,900 --> 01:22:51,200
or whatever, will be pushed to

2098
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:52,500
the fringes. And that's killing

2099
01:22:52,500 --> 01:22:54,200
the character of towns, not just

2100
01:22:54,200 --> 01:22:55,566
here in London, not just in Box

2101
01:22:55,566 --> 01:22:57,166
Hill, but everywhere in Britain.

2102
01:22:57,600 --> 01:22:58,800
And the same in the States as

2103
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,666
well. The older I get, the more

2104
01:23:02,666 --> 01:23:06,033
I think about places and people

2105
01:23:06,033 --> 01:23:07,533
that have disappeared. You think

2106
01:23:07,533 --> 01:23:08,366
they're going to be around

2107
01:23:08,366 --> 01:23:11,000
forever, but you should take

2108
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:12,500
advantage of them while you can.

2109
01:23:12,666 --> 01:23:13,366
What would happen if there

2110
01:23:13,366 --> 01:23:15,466
wasn't here? With the hoist?

2111
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:19,066
Yeah. Sadly, I think there would

2112
01:23:19,066 --> 01:23:21,466
be a large group of people that

2113
01:23:21,466 --> 01:23:24,433
would miss it. But I think to

2114
01:23:24,433 --> 01:23:26,566
the rest of the mainstream gays,

2115
01:23:26,700 --> 01:23:28,133
I don't think they would notice.

2116
01:23:29,466 --> 01:23:32,333
I'd be very sad indeed. I think

2117
01:23:32,333 --> 01:23:35,333
yet another little bit of gay

2118
01:23:35,333 --> 01:23:37,700
London has gone. It's lasted a

2119
01:23:37,700 --> 01:23:39,433
whole lot longer than even I

2120
01:23:39,433 --> 01:23:42,000
would possibly imagine.

2121
01:23:44,066 --> 01:23:47,066
I always think that this club is

2122
01:23:47,066 --> 01:23:48,466
in the hearts of the gay

2123
01:23:48,466 --> 01:23:49,633
community in London and

2124
01:23:49,633 --> 01:23:51,300
worldwide, I think. Because

2125
01:23:51,300 --> 01:23:54,000
nothing like it anywhere else in

2126
01:23:54,000 --> 01:23:55,066
the world would have been told.

2127
01:23:56,100 --> 01:23:57,333
Sex never goes away, though,

2128
01:23:57,333 --> 01:24:00,366
does it? There's always the

2129
01:24:00,366 --> 01:24:00,766
urge.

2130
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:17,666
We shouldn't forget that in

2131
01:24:17,666 --> 01:24:20,100
Berlin there were hundreds of

2132
01:24:20,100 --> 01:24:21,433
bars in the 1920s.

2133
01:24:25,133 --> 01:24:28,566
I hope that we will never see a

2134
01:24:28,566 --> 01:24:31,066
situation where bars close. But

2135
01:24:31,066 --> 01:24:36,000
in Paris, the two best-known

2136
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:38,900
bars, the Keller and the Glove,

2137
01:24:39,266 --> 01:24:40,633
have closed within the last

2138
01:24:40,633 --> 01:24:41,900
couple of years and quite

2139
01:24:41,900 --> 01:24:43,466
abruptly. They haven't really

2140
01:24:43,466 --> 01:24:45,100
been replaced by anything of the

2141
01:24:45,100 --> 01:24:45,966
same quality.

2142
01:24:49,466 --> 01:24:55,333
So just be aware that liberty is

2143
01:24:55,333 --> 01:24:57,300
something that is very precious.

2144
01:24:57,300 --> 01:25:01,333
And stand up for your rights,

2145
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,200
fight for what you have, don't

2146
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:05,600
take it all for granted.

2147
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:10,000
That'll do.

2148
01:25:14,900 --> 01:25:17,466
I hate wearing gloves. I hate

2149
01:25:17,466 --> 01:25:21,800
wearing them. I'm an old gay guy

2150
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:23,000
who's used to just using the

2151
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:25,633
hand. I hate wearing gloves. I

2152
01:25:25,633 --> 01:25:27,466
hate wearing them.

2153
01:25:31,233 --> 01:25:33,100
These are a bit of a matter of

2154
01:25:33,100 --> 01:25:35,366
life. This is very popular on

2155
01:25:35,366 --> 01:25:39,266
the weekend, the bath area. They

2156
01:25:39,266 --> 01:25:41,400
call it the swimming pool.

2157
01:25:42,900 --> 01:25:44,566
Water's pissing and whatever

2158
01:25:44,566 --> 01:25:47,166
else I want to do. I can only

2159
01:25:47,166 --> 01:25:48,466
smell what they're being in.

2160
01:25:49,233 --> 01:25:50,533
Yeah, you get used to it.

2161
01:25:53,666 --> 01:25:56,933
Come on, stay up, you bitch. I'm

2162
01:25:56,933 --> 01:25:57,566
going to get some blood

2163
01:25:57,566 --> 01:26:00,800
cellotape. These tubes are

2164
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,466
mostly for decoration. People

2165
01:26:03,466 --> 01:26:06,366
can improvise in here. You know

2166
01:26:06,366 --> 01:26:08,266
what I'm saying? Some people

2167
01:26:08,266 --> 01:26:09,666
stack them on top of each other.

2168
01:26:10,133 --> 01:26:12,333
Other people like sitting them

2169
01:26:12,333 --> 01:26:14,300
and get stuck early. Especially

2170
01:26:14,300 --> 01:26:15,000
with the rubber on, it's

2171
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:18,200
normally hilarious. Hold on,

2172
01:26:18,266 --> 01:26:20,333
I'll pull you out. Breathe out

2173
01:26:20,333 --> 01:26:23,566
and eventually pop. Or you find

2174
01:26:23,566 --> 01:26:26,500
the dildos in here. Or booklets

2175
01:26:26,500 --> 01:26:28,300
and all sorts. And here,

2176
01:26:28,333 --> 01:26:29,666
literally, you find all sorts.

2177
01:26:30,500 --> 01:26:32,066
Usually it's nipple rings you

2178
01:26:32,066 --> 01:26:34,066
find in here. Or cock rings,

2179
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:36,266
cocks things like that. Jock

2180
01:26:36,266 --> 01:26:39,366
straps, underwear, dildos,

2181
01:26:41,700 --> 01:26:46,666
cucumbers. All sorts, trust me.

2182
01:26:48,366 --> 01:26:52,066
What makes me laugh is, how can

2183
01:26:52,066 --> 01:26:53,800
you lose your jock strap? How

2184
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:55,033
the hell can you lose your jock

2185
01:26:55,033 --> 01:26:56,000
strap? That light's not in the

2186
01:26:56,000 --> 01:27:00,133
right place. Ouch. Not touching

2187
01:27:00,133 --> 01:27:01,333
me unless I'm touching a hot

2188
01:27:01,333 --> 01:27:04,700
light. Look, it's fine here. Can

2189
01:27:04,700 --> 01:27:07,266
hold my weight. Yeah, that's

2190
01:27:07,266 --> 01:27:07,466
right.