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Good evening, and welcome to National
Theatre Live.

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I'm very pleased that tonight we're
bringing you the National Theatre's

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collaboration with the groundbreaking
physical theatre company, DV8.

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Tonight's show, John, is like much of
their most recent work, a verbatim

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piece. It's based on first -hand
testimony, which is given to you

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DV8 is, what its title implies, a
physical theatre company, and they deal

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that testimony in a way that is unique.

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unique entirely unto themselves.

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They deal with it not just through
speech, but through music and movement

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well. And it is their experiments with
form that have made them renowned

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throughout the world.

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The subject matter of tonight's show,
John, is, as so often with DV8, raw,

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uncompromising, and won't necessarily be
to all tastes.

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But for me, it is a work of great
integrity and fierce power. I very much

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you enjoy it.

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Before I formed DV8 in 1986, I'd worked
as a dancer with four companies and with

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28 different choreographers.

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Increasingly, I began to feel frustrated
by the disconnection of what I was

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being asked to do on stage compared to
the richness and complications of the

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real world I observed beyond the dance
studio.

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And however impressive the moves and
athleticism might have been that we were

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doing, ultimately, I felt we were
conning audiences about the depth of

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were supposedly presenting.

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If you want to address social,
psychological, human issues, and I do,

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huge limitations.

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The term physical theatre better
describes the work I do. There are less

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restrictions and rules about what is
admissible under this banner.

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So I can invent, access, manipulate and
combine whatever I like, be it

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pedestrian or naturalistic movement,
circus girls, film, dance, song or text.

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Any means necessary.

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to find the most appropriate way to say
something, be it about religion, freedom

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of speech, sexuality, power abuse, class
inequality, disability or themes like

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the pursuit of happiness or the role
denial plays in our lives.

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The company's early work was physically
combative, masculine and angry.

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By 1990, fatigued by the bruising
physicality, I decided to change tact

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work became more poetic and imagistic.

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We started incorporating bigger and more
elaborate sets to advance our

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narratives.

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After more than two decades of
experimenting, shoving and pushing

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every direction, I felt I could no
longer adequately express ideas I needed

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in movement alone without resorting to
words.

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I was also tired of making fictional
work, so I started interviewing people

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about their lives and using their words
and their stories, while still

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maintaining a commitment and passion to
movement.

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And gradually, a hybrid form of theatre
emerged, incorporating what is known as

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verbatim theatre, with DVA's own very
physical and specific way of moving.

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I expected to focus on fewer stories in
this work than the last two verbatim

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works. However, it wasn't until John
walked into our office to be interviewed

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that it became clear the work would be
dominated by one man's story, his story.

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The words you hear spoken on stage by
the performer who plays him belong to

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and no other character.

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Apart from John, we only used five of
the 15 interviews. All the characters

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portrayed on stage are real.

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The work is a personal perspective, not
a collage of opinions nor a social

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survey about men's views.

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on love and sex.

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Like all the other men in this work, we
found John in a very specific place,

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unknown by most.

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Like John, they were all searching for
something, be it love, escape,

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validation, sex or company.

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There was my brother Nicholas.

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He was the first.

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And then Karen.

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And then Ronald.

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And then me.

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John.

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There was about a year and a half
between each.

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And then Simon, my younger brother.

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There was eight years between me and
him.

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My father was kicking the hell out of
her.

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She was seven months pregnant.

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She lost the baby.

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Twice that happened. In them eight
years, she lost two children.

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My sister, when she was growing up, she
was quite big.

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And my father, he sort of ridiculed her
about it.

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He nailed the bedroom door shut.

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He locked her in her bedroom to stop her
from eating.

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Stop her from getting fat.

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While he was at work, we went to his
toolbox and we chiseled a hole between

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bedroom walls so we can feed her through
the hole in the wall.

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Yeah, that was going on for weeks and
weeks.

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He tied my brother to the bed once.

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And he beat him with his army belt.

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Those big green canvas ones with the
brass buckle on it.

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I remember him bleeding from his ears.

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The only times my mother went out was
when she went to play bingo.

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And she came home early one night
because she'd won some money at the

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Yeah, she threw him out.

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My mother, she was a shoplifter.

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She used to take us out and use us as
cover.

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I mean, she used to shoplift to order.

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We had the neighbours come round asking
her if she could get the school uniforms

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for the kids for next term.

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She'd go and nick all the school
uniforms and sell them half price.

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When I was eight, my mother went to
labour to give birth to my brother

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At that point, the neighbour came round
to babysit me and my brother and my

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sister.

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It was then that my father broke into
the house and...

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Yeah, he raped the babysitter.

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He got three years in prison for that.

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It was quite a high -profile case at the
time, and Bob Monkhouse, he used to do

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the Golden Shot on TV.

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They always used to come on and make a
joke at the beginning of the show, and

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said who he were and made some joke
about, if you fancy a bit and you want

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keep in the family, you should pop
around our house.

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So, yeah, it was pretty grim for me.

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My mother kept me off school and we went
to Liverpool prison to sign the divorce

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papers.

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That was the last time I've seen my
father.

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It was quite stressful.

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The social services got involved and
they put me and my brother Ronald in the

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care and left her with the baby and my
sister.

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I was just like 10.

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When I went into care, I was quite
pleased, to be honest.

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I'm going to fucking kill myself.

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Yeah, do it quietly.

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We're trying to watch TV.

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I used to get on really well with my
mother.

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Before she moved to London, she was all
right.

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She did six months in prison for credit
card fraud.

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And when she came out, they gave her a
flat.

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She got abuse off the kids on the
estate, so they moved her.

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She got quite a nice, trendy little soft
terraced house in Clapham North.

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There were three of us living in the
house together.

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Nicholas, my mother.

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and me.

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And then she started drinking and became
a bit of a recluse.

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She used to just sit in her armchair and
watch the TV all day, drink bottles of

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sherry and get stoned.

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Life became purposes for her.

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She'd sit there all day, go to bed, get
up, sit there all day, go to bed, get

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up. It became monotonous.

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We used to argue with her quite a lot
and she used to throw us out.

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And we'd go back a week, ten days, two
weeks later and she'd be missing the

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money. So we take her a bottle of sherry
or some cash and a box of chocolates to

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sweeten her up a bit. And she goes,
Yeah, all right then. You can move back

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We had this argument. We get kicked out.

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And she'd been missing the rent. So a
bottle of sherry and a box of chocolates

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and then... Yeah, all right then. You
can move back in.

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So it was a regular occurring.

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We knew she'd been there for nine days
because...

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The newspaper was open on the kitchen
table on the Monday.

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The Monday was the 14th.

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But we didn't find her until the 23rd.

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An overdose.

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Obviously, she had persecuted herself
for all that time because of what

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between the father and my sister.

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I felt really, really bad, not
understanding what she was going

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It was then that my drug use got a bit
heavier.

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Yeah, I started using quite a lot.

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Yeah, quite a lot.

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Yeah,

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I met my brother's fiancée's sister, and
we had a two -year relationship, which

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resulted in the birth of my son.

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It was my first real relationship, my
first real home, together with someone,

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and I thought, this is it, yeah, council
flat, I'm on benefits, I've got a kid.

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I've cracked it, you know.

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18 and stupid.

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Yeah, but we split up, went away into
both, though.

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Young offenders in 1980.

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My son was only six months old.

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I didn't ever see him again until he was
20.

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When I came out, I met Sandra.

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My first real love.

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Yeah, we were on and off for about ten
years.

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Yeah, I did write a list one day of all
the girlfriends I had.

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And all of the names ended in the letter
A.

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How bizarre was that?

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I mean, there was a girl called Anna.
And then, as I said, Sandra.

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There was Katarina, the wife.

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Vanessa. Yeah, Vanessa was about six
months.

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But then she went off to America.

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There was another Italian girl called
Linda.

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Yeah, she was a bit loopy.

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A couple of weeks.

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Ah, Sylvia.

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87 to 90.

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And her friend Barbara.

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Bloody hell.

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In the back of a taxi. Yeah, I suppose
she wondered what her friend Sylvia had.

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Yeah, I guess it was cheating, but we
never talked about it after that.

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I had loads of girlfriends.

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There were about eight of them all
together.

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And then there was Hazel.

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Oh, that doesn't end in an A.

186
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Hazel.

187
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I had sex with her sister, Tina.

188
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Oh, there's another A.

189
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I just realised that. I was like, Tina,
fucking hell. I was like, what?

190
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I lived with Hazel for a couple of
years, but then she told me I got her

191
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pregnant.

192
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But when he was born, he was mixed race.

193
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You're a dark skin, aren't you, John?

194
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No. But, you know, what could I do?

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I love the girl.

196
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I couldn't just throw her out in the
streets, you know.

197
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Yeah, I raised the boy like me own.

198
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:06,540
Yeah, I was using heroin at the time. I
used to sell all her jewelry and spend

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00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:07,540
all her money.

200
00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:11,100
Yeah, it wasn't very nice for her.

201
00:15:11,740 --> 00:15:15,120
I remember one day coming home and there
was a policeman outside the door.

202
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And he said to me, she's packing all her
stuff up and she's moving out.

203
00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:24,920
I don't think she was going with anyone
else.

204
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I just think...

205
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She had it all.

206
00:15:28,930 --> 00:15:29,930
You know?

207
00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:48,350
My brother Nicholas, he was a troubled
guy.

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00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:53,290
Him and his girlfriend were so deep into
heroin and stuff, they just neglected

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their kids.

210
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She dropped the baby.

211
00:15:56,970 --> 00:15:58,450
It was only four weeks old.

212
00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:02,610
The baby's injuries were more than I
thought, you know.

213
00:16:03,150 --> 00:16:08,190
He had a shaken baby syndrome and
hemorrhaging behind the eyes and

214
00:16:08,190 --> 00:16:09,810
skull. Broken rib.

215
00:16:10,410 --> 00:16:12,670
You can't do that to your kids. It's not
right.

216
00:16:13,170 --> 00:16:16,490
So I grassed him up to the police. Ah,
you fucking grass.

217
00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:18,370
You fucking grass on your own brother.

218
00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:20,170
Well, look at what the fuck he's doing,
man.

219
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Anyway, he got arrested.

220
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He got eight years in prison for child
neglect.

221
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,600
I sort of distanced myself from him
because of what happened.

222
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:35,820
Nick is out of prison.

223
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,100
He uses heroin and he overdoses.

224
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,900
Obviously, his tolerance is not what it
used to be.

225
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,400
I didn't even go to his funeral.

226
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,160
Was he cremated?

227
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:49,840
Was he buried?

228
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I don't know.

229
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,660
It was soon after that that the house
got busted by the drug squad on two

230
00:16:58,660 --> 00:16:59,660
different occasions.

231
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,000
I got evicted.

232
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,920
Eventually, I ended up on the streets,
you know, nowhere to go.

233
00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:10,040
I was seriously addicted to heroin and
seriously into drink and living in bin

234
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,720
sheds and under bushes and sleeping in
doorways and garages.

235
00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:17,240
You can come and crash with me. I know
where there's somewhere we can sleep

236
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,880
tonight. You know, I know this nice
little alleyway bin shed.

237
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:23,300
Under the bridge.

238
00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:26,480
I was sleeping rough for about five
years.

239
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:33,220
Around about that time was when my
brother Ronald crashed his car and died.

240
00:17:36,220 --> 00:17:39,120
So, yeah, I was pretty depressed at that
point.

241
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,880
I mean, there was Caffe Nero, Jack of
Potatoes. You just go and knock on their

242
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,040
door and they give it to you.

243
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,820
At seven o 'clock, they used to come out
with big bags of sandwiches.

244
00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:55,770
Then there's Greggs the Baker's at 4 o
'clock in the morning when the van take

245
00:17:55,770 --> 00:17:57,490
all the stuff away they didn't sell the
day before.

246
00:17:58,010 --> 00:17:59,010
You just go and help yourself.

247
00:17:59,890 --> 00:18:01,270
And there's a Greggs on every high
street.

248
00:18:02,170 --> 00:18:03,650
Then there's a little drop -in center.

249
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:08,470
You can go for breakfast there between 7
and 8 and lunch there between 10 and 12

250
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:11,230
and then 1 and 2. So, yeah, there's
places.

251
00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:13,850
I used to stop people on the streets.

252
00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:15,630
Have you got a comment or quit?

253
00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:20,650
I tried sitting at the cash point, but I
couldn't do it.

254
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,000
I used to go cycling around the streets
and looking into skips and picking up

255
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,180
little bits of lead and little bits of
copper wire and go down to the scrapyard

256
00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:31,180
with that.

257
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,100
It was about £40, £50 a day, which used
to fund my drug habit.

258
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:41,120
I used to spend all my money on heroin
and crack and alcohol.

259
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,120
At one point I was drinking 30 cans of
Skull Super a day.

260
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,520
I got pissed off because I didn't even
get drunk.

261
00:18:49,370 --> 00:18:52,690
Yeah, I used to keep all my bedding and
stuff in there, and I used to stash...

262
00:18:52,690 --> 00:18:56,690
Yes! You asshole!

263
00:18:57,450 --> 00:19:00,070
Yes, my man! Yes, my man! You're gonna
kill him!

264
00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:01,490
You're gonna kill him!

265
00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:17,510
I've never been attacked like that
before in my life.

266
00:19:19,370 --> 00:19:23,270
I've got a scar down my arm here where
it sort of chopped me across my arm and

267
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:25,510
across my back and my leg.

268
00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:34,170
They got me assessed and got me put into
Cedars Road Hospital where I felt safe.

269
00:19:35,410 --> 00:19:39,850
I mean, they had doctors there and
nurses and drug workers and key workers.

270
00:19:40,850 --> 00:19:43,650
In the hospital situation, I started
getting my life back on track.

271
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:48,070
I wasn't using drugs. I was sticking to
my methadone, doing group therapy

272
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:49,070
sessions.

273
00:19:49,659 --> 00:19:52,060
I set up a drug group for people with
drug and alcohol issues.

274
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,700
I mean, there was a core of about ten.

275
00:19:56,460 --> 00:20:00,000
And then each week we had two or three,
four come in.

276
00:20:00,860 --> 00:20:04,140
At one point there was 20 of us, which
was great.

277
00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:09,540
I mean, they had a needle exchange in
there, so they knew the drug use was

278
00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:14,940
prolific. I mean, these guys were
injecting in their necks and in their

279
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:17,640
and some of them lost their legs and
some of them lost their arms.

280
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,760
It was a distressing place to be.

281
00:20:23,020 --> 00:20:27,040
Over a period of about 18 months, 14 of
them died.

282
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:34,500
And that's when I started to disengage
and started to worry about my own sort

283
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:35,500
mortality.

284
00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:40,620
I turned to food instead of using drugs
as a way of suppressing my depression.

285
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:42,680
I was diagnosed with depression.

286
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,240
My room was next door to the kitchen, so
I was just... gorging out on food

287
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:51,240
constantly.

288
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,060
And my weight went up to 25 stone.

289
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,380
I got quite friendly with this girl in
the hospital.

290
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:07,460
Bianca.

291
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:09,160
There's another A.

292
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:11,240
Bianca.

293
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,220
I used to call her my wife because we
were that close.

294
00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:17,340
With Bianca.

295
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,140
It was somewhere I can go and escape and
talk about anything.

296
00:21:22,380 --> 00:21:25,320
I really connected with her, you know.

297
00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:27,640
She was only 31.

298
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:29,120
She was HIV.

299
00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:31,360
She wasn't taking the medication.

300
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,360
For a couple of months, you're really
ill before your body starts getting used

301
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:36,019
to the drug.

302
00:21:36,020 --> 00:21:38,740
And she was, ah, fuck it, you know.

303
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:40,500
Can't do it, you know.

304
00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:41,780
Don't like it.

305
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:43,280
Throwing up every day.

306
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:46,540
So I went to stop taking it.

307
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:48,240
That's when she got really bad.

308
00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:50,900
Yeah, really bad.

309
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,160
She used to drink clear cider, which is
poison.

310
00:21:55,580 --> 00:21:57,280
Well, all alcohol is poison.

311
00:21:58,180 --> 00:22:02,820
She got jaundice and her liver was
packing up, so she went to Chelsea and

312
00:22:02,820 --> 00:22:03,820
Westminster Hospital.

313
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:05,540
They've got an HIV unit there.

314
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:13,460
When we got there, there was all these
tubes and wires and... It

315
00:22:13,460 --> 00:22:14,460
was a horrible sight.

316
00:22:15,980 --> 00:22:19,560
There were about four or five doctors
and nurses around the bed.

317
00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:21,800
Oh, you can only see for five minutes.

318
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:23,920
Yeah,

319
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:26,600
I broke down again.

320
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,720
We were really close, me and Bianca.

321
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,460
Babe, look at the fucking state of you.

322
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,180
She discharged herself from the hospital
because she said she was feeling

323
00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:40,180
better.

324
00:22:40,420 --> 00:22:43,820
She came back, started drinking again
and...

325
00:22:44,110 --> 00:22:49,670
All her legs swole up and all her skin
became ulcerated and there was a really

326
00:22:49,670 --> 00:22:51,570
horrible smell when we changed the
bandages.

327
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:54,450
She could hardly walk.

328
00:22:55,910 --> 00:23:00,430
She got really ill so we phoned an
ambulance and they put her in a

329
00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:02,130
and wheeled her out of the hospital.

330
00:23:03,670 --> 00:23:04,670
Come visit me.

331
00:23:05,890 --> 00:23:07,890
No, I ain't come visit you.

332
00:23:08,370 --> 00:23:09,610
Not after the last time.

333
00:23:12,550 --> 00:23:15,610
We looked at each other and we knew that
was it.

334
00:23:18,290 --> 00:23:21,630
She went in on Saturday and died on the
Tuesday.

335
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:25,570
Yeah, I really miss her.

336
00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:29,370
Do you want another coffee?

337
00:23:57,810 --> 00:23:58,850
Yeah, I'd always buy something.

338
00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:03,410
Even if it was a loaf of bread or a pint
of milk or something, I would buy

339
00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:04,389
something.

340
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:08,430
I'd always chat to the security guards
and the cashiers and the tellers and

341
00:24:08,430 --> 00:24:09,430
that.

342
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:11,430
I was always pretty well known.

343
00:24:11,890 --> 00:24:15,390
I might do a bit of work in Sainsbury's
Clapham and then Sainsbury's Ballam.

344
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:16,830
You think?

345
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:18,090
I recognise him.

346
00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:19,470
Hey, where are you working today?

347
00:24:19,810 --> 00:24:20,810
Yeah, I'm going to Twickenham.

348
00:24:21,050 --> 00:24:24,630
There's a new store open in there. Yeah,
I'm going down to Bluewater or up in

349
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:26,090
Chief or Duty Free.

350
00:24:27,950 --> 00:24:30,050
I could spot the shop security guards.

351
00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:33,490
If it's raining, they haven't got a
jacket on and their clothes are not wet.

352
00:24:33,930 --> 00:24:36,190
They never put perishables in their
baskets.

353
00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:39,750
There's no fruit or veg in there. It's
all tinned or bottled.

354
00:24:40,810 --> 00:24:42,570
Every couple of months, they change
stores.

355
00:24:43,570 --> 00:24:45,330
And you pick a little tip stop from
others.

356
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:47,410
It's like a little community of shop
fifties.

357
00:24:48,370 --> 00:24:49,870
Fat -packed salmon is always a good one.

358
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:52,590
Meat or salmon steaks or something like
that.

359
00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:54,890
They're all flat and easy to conceal.

360
00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:56,470
High value.

361
00:24:57,420 --> 00:24:58,940
Both of those periods used to be a good
one.

362
00:24:59,980 --> 00:25:03,040
Until they put those electronic tags on.

363
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,200
How's your missus?

364
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:22,720
Yeah, she's all right.

365
00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:25,200
I used to go around there every day.

366
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,480
Are you all right? Are you all right,
babe?

367
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:28,880
Yeah, I'm fine.

368
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:30,400
I'd leave.

369
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:33,440
One day I went round there and he
wouldn't let me in.

370
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,200
If you don't open the fucking door, I'll
blow it off!

371
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,360
He was an abusive alcoholic.

372
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,560
So I'm thinking he's beat her up and he
don't mean to see what he's done to her.

373
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:46,860
So I threatened to shoot the door open.

374
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:52,780
Pick up this replica machine gun from a
skip and... Anyway, I got nicked for

375
00:25:52,780 --> 00:25:53,679
that.

376
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:54,920
The judge said...

377
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,400
Me thinks I'm reading a script from the
bill.

378
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,940
Because it wasn't drug or gang related,
but just some stupid domestic.

379
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:04,280
Nine months.

380
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,800
Otherwise you'd be looking at five to
ten years.

381
00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:12,400
I've got 28 convictions for 65 offences.

382
00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:16,920
One offence against a person. That was
when I pushed a policeman or something.

383
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,720
Two offences against property.

384
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:25,280
Criminal damages and 30 thefts and 12
fraud offences and... Eight offences

385
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,980
relating to police, court and presence.

386
00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:30,340
Which is obviously failing to turn up to
court.

387
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,460
Two drug offences.

388
00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:35,520
And one firearm, shotgun, offensive
weapons.

389
00:26:36,140 --> 00:26:37,600
Seven miscellaneous offences.

390
00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:40,180
What else?

391
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:42,120
Driving offences.

392
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,320
Yeah, I've got a lot of driving
offences.

393
00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:46,100
Credit card fraud.

394
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,880
Yeah, I was just using someone else's
credit card.

395
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:50,840
I was busy that day.

396
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,680
48 different places I used that credit
card.

397
00:26:54,540 --> 00:26:56,660
I stole it out of the post of some empty
house.

398
00:26:58,460 --> 00:27:02,560
We were looking for a squat, and there
was loads of post piled up under the

399
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:08,600
letterbox. So, went through it, opened
it, and there it was.

400
00:27:10,020 --> 00:27:11,360
The person didn't exist.

401
00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:13,900
It was a piece of plastic, really.

402
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:16,400
It was mine.

403
00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:18,380
I owned it.

404
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,980
If I see something, I just go and I
steal it.

405
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:28,760
Just for the hell of it.

406
00:27:29,180 --> 00:27:31,200
Not that I needed it or wanted it.

407
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:32,900
Just for the boss or something.

408
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:34,880
Because I could.

409
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,920
It was just the way I was brought up, I
suppose.

410
00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:56,100
You've been positively identified as
being the man who did this.

411
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,980
Police Sergeant Jenkinson has seen you
with the sofa alight in the middle of

412
00:29:00,980 --> 00:29:04,080
this woman's room, trying to light bits
of paper with a lighter.

413
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,040
He's asked you to drop the lighter, to
which you've said, you're going to have

414
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,800
to kill me because I'm going to set the
building alight.

415
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,140
Why would you say that?

416
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:17,360
I don't know.

417
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,120
I don't know.

418
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,620
I don't remember any of this.

419
00:29:21,180 --> 00:29:22,320
I swear to God.

420
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,040
I was charged with arson with intent to
endanger life on two counts.

421
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,580
And section 20, wounding a person with
intent to endanger life. The accused

422
00:29:34,580 --> 00:29:39,660
should expect a considerable amount of
time in prison, if not a life sentence.

423
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,840
I was going to prison for something I
never did.

424
00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:44,820
I just couldn't get my head around that.

425
00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:50,180
I couldn't. I just... I know I've been a
naughty boy most of my life.

426
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,860
Shoplifting and burglary and drugs.

427
00:29:55,050 --> 00:29:56,090
This just wasn't me.

428
00:29:57,010 --> 00:29:58,010
No.

429
00:29:58,450 --> 00:30:02,410
But obviously it wasn't me who did it
because when I woke up in hospital, I

430
00:30:02,410 --> 00:30:03,410
covered in blood.

431
00:30:03,910 --> 00:30:05,750
And there was blood on my hands and
stuff.

432
00:30:07,170 --> 00:30:08,170
Hair blood.

433
00:30:09,170 --> 00:30:13,710
The judge gave me six years for the
first count of orphans, six years for

434
00:30:13,710 --> 00:30:16,930
second count, and 18 months for the
section 20.

435
00:30:17,370 --> 00:30:18,370
Ruining a person.

436
00:30:19,170 --> 00:30:20,930
Thirteen and a half years. Whoa, whoa.

437
00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:25,880
Wait. My client was advised not to put
in a guilty plea at the beginning of the

438
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,420
trial until the original charges had
been revised.

439
00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:33,020
Because the charges needed to be changed
from arson with intent to arson

440
00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:35,540
reckless. Because I didn't plan it.

441
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:37,760
The psychiatrist said I did it
recklessly.

442
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,320
Basically, it wasn't my fault.

443
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:41,900
This is the psychiatric report.

444
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,760
She said... There was no criminal
intent.

445
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,240
He had been feeling depressed about the
death of his friend, Bianca, and that...

446
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,580
In that week, another friend of mine's
wife died.

447
00:30:52,540 --> 00:30:56,880
So I go and I spend all my money on
heroin and crack and alcohol.

448
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,000
I get no sleep on Saturday and Sunday.

449
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,580
I got my benefits on the Monday, so I
had another session on the Monday.

450
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,700
On the Tuesday, I go and see my doctor
for my prescription for my methadone and

451
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:10,700
my sleeping pills.

452
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,540
Yeah, I had a bit of a row with my
doctor because he wouldn't give me any

453
00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:16,540
painkillers.

454
00:31:17,220 --> 00:31:18,220
That was knackered.

455
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:19,800
I could barely walk.

456
00:31:20,410 --> 00:31:22,190
25 stone. I was in pain.

457
00:31:22,770 --> 00:31:23,770
Ah, fuck it.

458
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:27,070
I'm just going to take a couple of these
sleeping pills, and by the time I get

459
00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:30,670
home, they would have kicked in. I went
to the shop to buy four beers.

460
00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:33,750
He asked me to go to the shop and get
him some beers.

461
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:34,989
Go super.

462
00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:35,990
Buy myself one.

463
00:31:36,190 --> 00:31:40,370
He was opening the cans of beer and just
pouring them down his face, just trying

464
00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:42,090
to drink it and missing his mouth
completely.

465
00:31:43,010 --> 00:31:44,250
He took all his pills.

466
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:48,930
He sat there and took them one after the
other, saying, fuck it, fuck it, fuck

467
00:31:48,930 --> 00:31:54,120
it. Let's have some more. Let's have
some more. So, it was more than a couple

468
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,120
tablets.

469
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:56,360
Yeah.

470
00:31:57,060 --> 00:31:58,060
Fourteen.

471
00:31:58,520 --> 00:31:59,520
Took the lot.

472
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:06,900
And that was about 11 .45 on the
Tuesday, the 10th of August, 2010.

473
00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:09,520
And that was the last thing I remember.

474
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,640
Before I woke up in hospital on
Wednesday night, seven o 'clock.

475
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,000
The psychiatrist's report on the day of
my sentence saved me.

476
00:32:18,420 --> 00:32:22,770
She said, The accused does not have a
history of violence, save for one

477
00:32:22,770 --> 00:32:26,070
incident. So his alleged actions do
appear out of character.

478
00:32:26,410 --> 00:32:31,730
The drug types are well recognized as
causing amnesia and have psychotic side

479
00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:34,190
effects. But you still took the drugs.

480
00:32:34,590 --> 00:32:36,530
You still went on that binge.

481
00:32:36,930 --> 00:32:38,150
You still did it.

482
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:42,030
They dropped the charges to you reckless
rather than with intent.

483
00:32:42,890 --> 00:32:44,510
So that's why I got off pretty lightly.

484
00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:48,370
He took a third of everything and he
gave me a four.

485
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:49,939
A four.

486
00:32:49,940 --> 00:32:50,940
And a one.

487
00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:54,100
And he stuck it all together and just
gave me a five.

488
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:55,960
Which was nice of him.

489
00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:14,820
I was about 24 and a half stone. More
than 50 % fat when I first went to

490
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,280
And my metabolic age was...

491
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:18,580
76 years old.

492
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,500
How are you doing, John?

493
00:33:20,780 --> 00:33:23,340
I'm doing really well, but I'm addicted
to something.

494
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,820
I'm using it every day.

495
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,080
Twice a day.

496
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,680
I'm loving it. I'm getting a better buzz
out of it than any drug I've ever took.

497
00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:31,660
What are you taking?

498
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,440
Exercise.

499
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,400
Weights. Curls.

500
00:33:36,260 --> 00:33:37,260
Squats.

501
00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:39,140
Dumbbells. Bicycles.

502
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,560
Rowing machine.

503
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:41,860
Tips for the medicine ball.

504
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:43,380
Have it on the running machine.

505
00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:44,740
But walk.

506
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:45,920
But I start jogging.

507
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:47,560
Started losing weight.

508
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,060
It was great.

509
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,480
I've got this little printout from the
machine.

510
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,760
They measure your fat, body mass,
muscle.

511
00:33:58,340 --> 00:33:59,560
That one's 20 stone.

512
00:34:00,020 --> 00:34:01,480
17 stone and 5 pounds.

513
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:03,120
16 stone and 9 pounds.

514
00:34:03,580 --> 00:34:05,400
In about a year, I lost 10 stone.

515
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:11,219
When I left Brixton, my weight was 95
kilos, which was about 14 and a half

516
00:34:11,219 --> 00:34:15,060
stone. My metabolic age was 47 years
old.

517
00:34:16,300 --> 00:34:17,580
So, I got a few years back.

518
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:45,300
Do you need a passport for domestic
flights in this

519
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:46,719
country? Why? Where are you going?

520
00:34:47,420 --> 00:34:51,360
Well, I fancy flying to Newcastle. Why
do you want to fly to Newcastle for?

521
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:55,300
Well, I think my son's in Sunderland,
and that would be the closest airport.

522
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,860
Oh, well, that probably is.

523
00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:04,840
So I got in touch with the chaplaincy,
and they referred me to the Salvation

524
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,340
Army Family Finder Service and asked
them if they can find a son for me.

525
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,040
I told them the story. I haven't seen my
son for 12 years.

526
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:14,720
I've only seen him once.

527
00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:16,260
Since he was six months old.

528
00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:17,920
That was when he was 20.

529
00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:20,660
So, he's 32 now.

530
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,280
We found your son, John.

531
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:30,600
He's in Newcastle.

532
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,400
He's agreed for you to have his details,
and we passed your details on to him.

533
00:35:37,620 --> 00:35:38,620
Wow.

534
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,120
What?

535
00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:42,029
Yeah, so...

536
00:35:42,030 --> 00:35:47,530
I phoned him up and it was pretty
emotional. He was like, Dad, well, I

537
00:35:47,530 --> 00:35:48,530
want you in my life.

538
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:53,550
I came to London from that house that I
went to before, but, well, you weren't

539
00:35:53,550 --> 00:35:55,590
there. And nobody knew where you were.

540
00:35:56,170 --> 00:35:58,110
He told me he cried all the way home.

541
00:35:58,870 --> 00:36:00,770
It was his engagement party the night
before.

542
00:36:01,030 --> 00:36:02,030
He was getting married.

543
00:36:02,810 --> 00:36:04,170
I was with my fiancée.

544
00:36:04,910 --> 00:36:07,430
She's got two sons and he's got a son.

545
00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:09,250
You're a grandad.

546
00:36:09,610 --> 00:36:10,790
You've got a three -year -old grandson.

547
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:16,970
I was watching this TV show the other
day called Family Finders and, well,

548
00:36:16,970 --> 00:36:21,110
was this black guy in there who says he
hasn't seen his father for, like, almost

549
00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:26,030
15 years and he's getting married soon
and he would love if his father could

550
00:36:26,030 --> 00:36:27,030
come to his wedding.

551
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:32,290
Like, wouldn't it be nice if I could
find my dad and my dad could come to my

552
00:36:32,290 --> 00:36:37,930
wedding? And actually, the postman
arrived with a letter from the Salvation

553
00:36:37,930 --> 00:36:40,250
saying, your father's looking for you.

554
00:36:41,170 --> 00:36:42,310
That was so weird.

555
00:36:43,630 --> 00:36:47,010
The weirdest thing is, I was watching
that same show that same day.

556
00:36:47,810 --> 00:36:52,190
He sent me some photographs of him and
his missus and the kids.

557
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:57,990
He wrote letters to me. I told him on
the phone. I said, look, you're my only

558
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:59,630
surviving family member in this country.

559
00:37:00,090 --> 00:37:01,710
You know, I got nobody.

560
00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:04,470
I've done something pretty bad.

561
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:08,450
My actions have caused a lot of stress
to a lot of people.

562
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:10,030
But it changed my life around.

563
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:11,850
Don't worry about it, Dad.

564
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,360
You know, at least you're getting better
and, well, addressing your issues.

565
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,420
That's all part of the project.

566
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,220
I really want to be part of your life.

567
00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:23,740
He was up for that.

568
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,300
Yeah, I was on such a high.

569
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,280
They were looking for, yeah, mentors to
sort of interview the guys to come into

570
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,860
prison and see what their needs are.

571
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,020
So I thought, yeah, I'll have some of
that.

572
00:37:46,140 --> 00:37:49,940
Signed up, passed the course, got the
job.

573
00:37:51,820 --> 00:37:56,980
They gave me a list of cell numbers and
I go round and knock and open up the

574
00:37:56,980 --> 00:37:57,980
door.

575
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,140
I introduce myself and ask, what
services do you require?

576
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,420
Do you need your rent paying?

577
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:04,800
Are you earning benefits?

578
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,120
And blah, blah, blah, blah.

579
00:38:07,220 --> 00:38:08,380
So I quite enjoyed that.

580
00:38:10,860 --> 00:38:13,440
When a prisoner was leaving, I had to
do, like, an exit.

581
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,280
Do you need any ID?

582
00:38:15,540 --> 00:38:18,720
Do you want someone to meet you at the
gate to keep you on the straight and

583
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:19,720
narrow?

584
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,880
Sometimes I'd say goodbye to someone on
a Friday, and then I'd open up the door

585
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,440
on a Tuesday morning, and he was there.

586
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:30,440
What the fuck?

587
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,920
He goes, yeah, I didn't get to the end
of the street, you know.

588
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:35,240
I got the case.

589
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,340
I had an argument with the police, and,
well...

590
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:40,920
I got recalled, and rah, rah, rah.

591
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,200
Some people I'd seen three or four
times.

592
00:38:46,340 --> 00:38:49,400
And I thought, that ain't a life for me.

593
00:38:53,180 --> 00:38:55,960
That revolving door ain't happening for
me.

594
00:38:56,460 --> 00:39:00,800
I want to put all that behind me. I want
to live a normal life, what's perceived

595
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,820
as normal by you middle classes.

596
00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:06,840
So I enlisted in the Open University.

597
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:09,600
Done a distance learning course in
health.

598
00:39:11,420 --> 00:39:16,360
Halfway through the course, I lost
interest and I missed the call stage

599
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:17,360
ASA.

600
00:39:21,540 --> 00:39:26,040
With help from my distance learning
coordinator, my coursework was brought

601
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,040
on track.

602
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,480
I received the results from the Open
University.

603
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:34,320
I passed with distinction.

604
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:36,920
How about that?

605
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:45,830
What the fuck's going on?

606
00:39:46,610 --> 00:39:50,550
They wouldn't let me ring my son's
number. I can't really discuss it. Your

607
00:39:50,750 --> 00:39:51,770
he said he'd write to you.

608
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:54,990
What's going on? Do in my head and...
Hasn't he contacted you?

609
00:39:55,490 --> 00:40:00,110
Nah. Oh, well, I'll have to tell you
then. Well, he googled you and he didn't

610
00:40:00,110 --> 00:40:03,430
like what you'd seen. He phoned the
prison and said he didn't want any

611
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:04,430
with you.

612
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:08,270
The story in the papers, it's not bad.

613
00:40:09,110 --> 00:40:12,090
The photographs are pretty grim, but the
story ain't bad.

614
00:40:12,750 --> 00:40:13,870
He misrepresents me.

615
00:40:14,350 --> 00:40:17,890
They haven't got the charges right for a
start. I mean, they're still writing

616
00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:19,590
arson with intent to endanger life.

617
00:40:20,970 --> 00:40:26,110
I had to sign this paper saying I can't
phone him, I can't write to him, I can't

618
00:40:26,110 --> 00:40:28,410
get any third party to conduct him on my
behalf.

619
00:40:29,170 --> 00:40:34,650
I came to the conclusion that because
he's got a missus and kids, he don't

620
00:40:34,650 --> 00:40:36,910
some mad arsonist living in the house.

621
00:40:41,450 --> 00:40:45,390
When we set up our storm, it didn't
work. For quite a long time, we were

622
00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:48,710
broke. And we lived in a bunk bed in the
office. We're about to go under, and I

623
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:52,170
think... Well, I think the turning
point... It was when we asked ourselves

624
00:40:52,170 --> 00:40:54,950
it is that we actually sell. And what we
needed to sell.

625
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:56,250
Is it busy?

626
00:40:56,490 --> 00:40:58,030
Because it's the number one asked
question.

627
00:40:58,370 --> 00:41:00,690
Is it busy? What's your maximum
capacity?

628
00:41:01,050 --> 00:41:04,450
How many lockers do you have? Not how
many people, how many lockers. Because

629
00:41:04,450 --> 00:41:05,408
that's indicative.

630
00:41:05,410 --> 00:41:09,150
Because they want to know how many
people could possibly be there at one

631
00:41:09,580 --> 00:41:13,680
But it also depends on what you say.
Because if the queens see you offer a

632
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,440
discount between certain hours, they go,
ah, that's when it's not busy, not

633
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:18,218
going then.

634
00:41:18,220 --> 00:41:21,760
Some of our competitors still do that,
stupidly. We don't.

635
00:41:22,220 --> 00:41:23,520
What we sell is busy.

636
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,680
It wasn't just us saying it, we had to
be it. You can't just tell people, oh,

637
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:31,060
we're busy, because they'll come and
find out. So we gave stuff away.

638
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,000
We let people in for free.

639
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,400
We did all sorts of tricks to make sure
that, actually, we are busy.

640
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,940
Where people make the mistake very often
is they think busy ups their chances of

641
00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:42,940
having good sex.

642
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,080
Actually, busy's not always sex.

643
00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:49,540
My little joke thing is, you know we all
rate ourselves on a scale.

644
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,700
Well, I put myself as a seven.

645
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:57,160
I'm probably a five, but I have high
self -esteem.

646
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:58,960
And I chase after nines.

647
00:41:59,540 --> 00:42:05,320
But I know that if I go to a very busy
sauna that's full of nines, all the

648
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:06,380
are going to be fucking each other.

649
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,000
And it's at seven.

650
00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:10,000
Well, they're just going to be looking
over my shoulder.

651
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,460
Whereas, when I go in, it's a bit
quieter.

652
00:42:14,020 --> 00:42:16,100
Actually, there are a couple of nines
knocking about.

653
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:18,880
Well, they probably haven't quite
connected or whatever else.

654
00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:20,320
And I can pick them off.

655
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,580
So that's the theory of busy is not
always best.

656
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,500
The other much simpler thing that we did
was the two -day pass.

657
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:36,220
You can come back for free. And
eventually we bit the bullet from the 24

658
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,100
which we weren't to start off with, and
that has made a difference. Yeah, but

659
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:40,700
that did come at a cost.

660
00:42:41,340 --> 00:42:44,580
Because when you go 24 hours, that's
when you get the druggies.

661
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,880
And when you've got a 24 -hour path,
well, that's when you get the people who

662
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,060
just think that they can live there. We
had a Polish boy living here.

663
00:42:52,740 --> 00:42:58,420
He started getting his mail delivered
here, at which point we cancelled his

664
00:42:58,420 --> 00:42:59,420
membership.

665
00:43:18,450 --> 00:43:21,690
Yeah, I was out of prison for four or
five weeks, and it was like gay guys

666
00:43:21,690 --> 00:43:22,690
everywhere.

667
00:43:22,990 --> 00:43:23,990
Just what you're looking for.

668
00:43:24,750 --> 00:43:25,930
It's like being in a sweet shop.

669
00:43:27,830 --> 00:43:28,830
You all right, mate?

670
00:43:30,330 --> 00:43:31,330
You all right?

671
00:43:31,730 --> 00:43:32,730
How you doing?

672
00:43:34,030 --> 00:43:35,630
It's like being on the fucking
underground in here.

673
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:38,910
Why don't nobody talk to each other?
You're sitting in here saying, fuck all.

674
00:43:38,910 --> 00:43:40,270
mean, you're coming to meet somebody.

675
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:43,150
You fucking talk to people. You might be
able to meet somebody.

676
00:43:44,930 --> 00:43:47,070
Yeah, I start chatting to people. It's
like I'm a nut or something.

677
00:43:48,350 --> 00:43:49,350
What are you doing here?

678
00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:51,850
What the fuck are you doing here? It's
so cold.

679
00:43:52,070 --> 00:43:53,610
It's fucking cold in this place.

680
00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:57,210
Yeah, you get people come in at this
hour in the steam room. It's like their

681
00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:58,210
test goes on something.

682
00:43:58,390 --> 00:44:00,390
They come in, have a look around, and go
out.

683
00:44:00,910 --> 00:44:03,830
And the guys that come in, they just
fucking creep across and touch you.

684
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:05,450
What are you fucking doing, man?

685
00:44:06,110 --> 00:44:07,930
If you want to suck my cock, talk to me
about it.

686
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:10,990
You can talk to me. What's the matter
with you fucking people?

687
00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:14,550
Didn't like it, eh?

688
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:16,630
Yeah, they all just got up and fucked
about.

689
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,160
Yeah, you just go in there and do your
business and you fuck off. No one's

690
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,160
bothered about it.

691
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,580
I don't know anybody's names. I don't
like that aspect of it.

692
00:44:26,220 --> 00:44:27,960
I think it could be an aspect of
intimacy.

693
00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:32,180
For fuck's sake, you get an intimate,
oral, penetrative sex, you know.

694
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:33,540
You don't just do it cold.

695
00:44:42,220 --> 00:44:43,500
In my experience...

696
00:44:44,020 --> 00:44:45,020
Heterosexual places.

697
00:44:45,140 --> 00:44:46,140
Sports places.

698
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,760
Spas. I'd find them aggressive, and you
either keep them, or join the stupid

699
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,960
talk about football, or shit about their
muscles, or about their training, and

700
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,080
it's like, shut up.

701
00:44:57,460 --> 00:44:59,880
There's no place for me there. It's just
rowdy.

702
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:03,800
Engage, so on.

703
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,360
There's not a lot of chat at all.

704
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,140
Absolutely fucking perfect.

705
00:45:07,660 --> 00:45:11,140
There might be a little chat, but it's
not aggressive, and it's not nonsense.

706
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:17,580
It's quiet, calm, it's attempting, it's
respectful. Where in other places it's,

707
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,840
and hanging around in heterosexual
chains.

708
00:45:21,060 --> 00:45:23,980
It's just dodgy. Why would anyone hang
around? That's not right.

709
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,660
Where in a gay song, it is about hanging
around and taking your time.

710
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,600
And I wanted to take my time and hang
around.

711
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,420
If I go, it might be from eight hours,
six hours, probably more than four

712
00:45:38,580 --> 00:45:39,580
maybe more.

713
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,720
There's one that I'd go to because they
have a brilliant roof to sunbathe and

714
00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:46,840
maybe a split on the roof.

715
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:48,240
Some phone calls.

716
00:45:48,380 --> 00:45:51,240
If I had a day without clients, then I
could do a load of work there.

717
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,120
In the winter, I'd be in the TV room
reading.

718
00:45:54,820 --> 00:45:59,920
I could spend absolutely hours sitting
in the open theme room to warm my bones.

719
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,440
One of the best things about a gay sauna
is that no one exists there apart from

720
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,520
me. So it could be work, clients...

721
00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:14,180
Busyness, people I live with, my
girlfriend, my family, anything and

722
00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:15,180
that's going on.

723
00:46:15,780 --> 00:46:18,320
When I go in there, my head can empty.

724
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,720
It's not blank. It's just thinking
things through and just letting things

725
00:46:23,140 --> 00:46:27,320
And I don't know anyone. I can put up
this thing nine times out of ten.

726
00:46:27,780 --> 00:46:28,698
Men know.

727
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:32,340
If I don't want to talk or I don't want
to be touched, I don't want sex or

728
00:46:32,340 --> 00:46:33,340
anything like that.

729
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,560
It's so respectful. It's to listen to.

730
00:46:35,860 --> 00:46:38,240
If I'm not putting out, I can be totally
left alone.

731
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,220
It's like... Being invisible.

732
00:46:41,580 --> 00:46:45,040
And if I'm ridiculously horny and my
fiancée is away for weeks or something,

733
00:46:45,180 --> 00:46:46,180
then maybe.

734
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,760
My fiancée does know and it's not an
issue.

735
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,080
But that was more in the old days when I
had the curse of the city. And it's

736
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,680
like, can someone please come up with an
original idea?

737
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,140
Something needs to be dealt with because
I need to get on with my day.

738
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:00,500
Have you ever kissed a man?

739
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:03,960
I must have, but I can't think.

740
00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:06,740
I want to say yes, but I don't remember.

741
00:47:07,460 --> 00:47:08,760
I haven't got an issue with it.

742
00:47:08,990 --> 00:47:13,070
It's not a big secret, so I must have.
But I don't remember.

743
00:47:13,330 --> 00:47:16,630
Did you tell any of your other part
-girlfriends that you used Kate's

744
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:19,470
Nah.

745
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:24,030
One of my ex -girlfriends found out, and
she was surprised. And she said, so

746
00:47:24,030 --> 00:47:26,310
where are you with your sexuality?

747
00:47:27,290 --> 00:47:28,410
It's very, very simple.

748
00:47:28,730 --> 00:47:30,410
I would describe myself as straight.

749
00:47:30,690 --> 00:47:34,890
But then, everyone that knows me knows
that it depends on how I'm feeling in

750
00:47:34,890 --> 00:47:35,890
moment.

751
00:47:37,090 --> 00:47:38,150
But generally...

752
00:47:38,850 --> 00:47:39,850
I would say straight.

753
00:47:51,770 --> 00:47:53,730
Hi. Hi, babe. How are you?

754
00:47:53,970 --> 00:47:55,730
Not too bad. How are you? I'm good.

755
00:47:56,110 --> 00:47:57,230
Oh, my God. What's that?

756
00:47:57,470 --> 00:47:58,470
I'm doing an interview.

757
00:47:58,650 --> 00:48:01,890
Wow. What's the interview for? Is it
recording now? It is recording.

758
00:48:02,190 --> 00:48:05,630
Do you want enough... Hey, is it okay if
I go and put a towel on? Yeah, do you

759
00:48:05,630 --> 00:48:07,690
want an upstairs locker or a downstairs
locker?

760
00:48:08,670 --> 00:48:11,990
I think 78 isn't blocked by anything.
What kind of meat's in there?

761
00:48:12,190 --> 00:48:13,190
It's beef.

762
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:14,430
Is it?

763
00:48:14,590 --> 00:48:17,970
Well, that's not beef, mate. That's not
meat's meat.

764
00:48:18,170 --> 00:48:22,250
I don't know what that is, but the
layers between there, I mean, what's

765
00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:23,089
there?

766
00:48:23,090 --> 00:48:24,290
I can't eat that, bro.

767
00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:28,890
It's got no flavor to it, nothing. It's
like the bread's so hard as well.

768
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:31,330
It's fucking stale, man. I'll get it out
of the bin.

769
00:48:31,850 --> 00:48:33,350
So the lasagna's no good?

770
00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:34,980
Absolutely not.

771
00:48:35,220 --> 00:48:37,600
If they call it, it's wrong. The texture
is wrong, you know.

772
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,100
I'm not Italian, but I know how to make
a good lasagna.

773
00:48:40,340 --> 00:48:42,420
No flavour to it, nothing.

774
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,860
Look, it's like fucking... It's like
corn.

775
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:47,560
You know corn?

776
00:48:47,980 --> 00:48:51,460
That's not real fucking beef, man.
That's not meant to be. Look, you're

777
00:48:51,460 --> 00:48:53,440
me that's meant to be, man. It's a
fucking paste.

778
00:48:54,020 --> 00:48:55,020
What is that?

779
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:57,400
That's terrible.

780
00:48:58,380 --> 00:48:59,380
I'm really sorry.

781
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:01,060
Can I get you anything else?

782
00:49:02,220 --> 00:49:03,220
Have you got any cigars?

783
00:49:03,660 --> 00:49:04,660
No, sir.

784
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:06,080
Sorry, we don't do them.

785
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:09,680
You're not going to put the lasagna on
the bill, are you?

786
00:49:10,060 --> 00:49:11,080
Yeah, that's the deal.

787
00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:18,280
Hi. What?

788
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:20,480
Have you been here before?

789
00:49:20,820 --> 00:49:21,820
Nah, not here.

790
00:49:22,020 --> 00:49:23,300
Okay, follow me.

791
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,120
The space we're in now, this is like the
chill -out lounge, where we keep the

792
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,780
tea, the coffee, and the only non -pervy
television, the regulars.

793
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,280
A really nice guy.

794
00:49:34,860 --> 00:49:37,820
They talk more than they shag.

795
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,220
We've got the tennis on now, so if I
wasn't doing the interview, we'd be

796
00:49:42,220 --> 00:49:43,220
chatting about the score.

797
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,420
And when the antiques are on, we discuss
the prices and all that sort of thing.

798
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,680
It's a bit odd, because everyone's stark
bollock naked, except for me.

799
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,040
And through there, we've got, like, the
porn lounge.

800
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,780
If you go left... You've got one of the
private cabin areas.

801
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,920
And through here, the sling room.

802
00:50:07,700 --> 00:50:11,700
Then there's this, like, giant bed you
can fit 15 to 20 people on.

803
00:50:12,020 --> 00:50:14,720
Or more, depending on what positions you
get into.

804
00:50:15,260 --> 00:50:19,160
Then there's the steam room along there.

805
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:28,280
Then downstairs, the shower, sauna,
smoking area, and other cabins.

806
00:50:34,090 --> 00:50:38,150
Then we've got, like, the glory hole
section, which I think is the weirdest

807
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:43,470
thing. Because it's basically like three
toilet cubicles without any toilets in

808
00:50:43,470 --> 00:50:45,370
them. Just got holes in the walls.

809
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:49,510
And if you come around the corner, you
can see bits poking through.

810
00:50:50,310 --> 00:50:51,950
We have themed party nights.

811
00:50:52,290 --> 00:50:56,070
Well, next week we've got jocks,
speedos, underwear.

812
00:50:56,730 --> 00:51:00,450
There's fetish nights, lads for dads,
but, like, legal boys.

813
00:51:00,650 --> 00:51:01,730
Tell me about lads for dads.

814
00:51:02,250 --> 00:51:03,590
Well, it's generally a lot of dads.

815
00:51:04,070 --> 00:51:06,530
And the lads are pushing it. What do you
mean by that?

816
00:51:06,750 --> 00:51:11,210
Well, you can be a lad at 40 if everyone
around you is 65.

817
00:51:11,790 --> 00:51:15,050
Yes. We have ones for HIV -positive men.

818
00:51:15,690 --> 00:51:17,170
It's not exclusive or anything.

819
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:20,550
There's just no judgment or anything
about it.

820
00:51:21,210 --> 00:51:26,510
You can be honest and open about your
status, whereas other people might feel

821
00:51:26,510 --> 00:51:28,290
ashamed about it otherwise.

822
00:51:28,750 --> 00:51:29,770
Is it quite like this?

823
00:51:30,350 --> 00:51:31,740
Uh... Completely.

824
00:51:32,300 --> 00:51:34,880
I can't think of an ethnic minority we
haven't had in.

825
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:40,020
And we're like, very transsexual,
transvestite friendly.

826
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,540
Basically, we don't really care.

827
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,200
Just as long as we can take their money.

828
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,800
Really, that's the truth of it.

829
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:57,020
We've been to every sauna in London, and
no one has as hot a clientele as we do.

830
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,780
They're young, they're fit.

831
00:52:00,650 --> 00:52:01,650
And they're up for it.

832
00:52:02,110 --> 00:52:04,330
What you're doing is hunting.

833
00:52:04,830 --> 00:52:06,090
Cruising is hunting.

834
00:52:06,770 --> 00:52:08,790
Sex is not about coming.

835
00:52:09,070 --> 00:52:12,130
Sex is actually about the possibility of
sex.

836
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:13,450
It's about body language.

837
00:52:13,930 --> 00:52:15,410
It's about eye contact.

838
00:52:15,830 --> 00:52:18,730
I know, instantly use injected because I
catch their eye.

839
00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:24,390
Because they catch mine. And as long as
I remain confident, I initiate.

840
00:52:25,530 --> 00:52:27,710
Well, if I just wait for them to
respond, it's never going to happen.

841
00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:30,290
So, therefore, I make the first move.

842
00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:32,990
I don't care if I get pushed back.

843
00:52:34,310 --> 00:52:35,310
I strut.

844
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:42,390
Usually. Oh, well, no, I mean, there is
the going to the cock and the grabbing,

845
00:52:42,450 --> 00:52:46,550
but usually, actually, before any of
that, I would smile.

846
00:52:47,690 --> 00:52:52,770
It would be a dirty leer, probably, but
it would be a form of a smile, which is

847
00:52:52,770 --> 00:52:53,790
to break that ice.

848
00:52:54,330 --> 00:52:55,730
We don't really hunt separately.

849
00:52:56,350 --> 00:52:57,530
We hunt together.

850
00:52:57,810 --> 00:52:59,750
It's much, much harder hunting together.

851
00:53:00,090 --> 00:53:04,690
Well, not really. I mean, it's harder to
hunt together if you just want one

852
00:53:04,690 --> 00:53:09,130
person. But generally, when we hunt
together, our primary goal is to get the

853
00:53:09,130 --> 00:53:10,109
party started.

854
00:53:10,110 --> 00:53:14,790
So if we're walking to a venue and we're
hunting together, then we just go where

855
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:19,210
everybody is and fuck in front of them.
And they will crowd round and wait for

856
00:53:19,210 --> 00:53:22,210
an invitation. And you just say, you,
come.

857
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,120
You come, you go away.

858
00:53:26,740 --> 00:53:27,740
And they will come.

859
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,560
And the pushier ones will push in, but
for the most part, we've fucked in

860
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,260
from here to Berlin, and most times they
wait for an invitation.

861
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:37,560
And wear it back by.

862
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,800
The people assume that we're a couple.
And so they can't touch. And so they

863
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:41,800
can't get involved.

864
00:53:42,060 --> 00:53:46,320
So actually, a new technique would
really be to separate, and then find

865
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,540
other as if we've never met. Oh yeah,
that would work actually.

866
00:53:51,370 --> 00:53:55,330
When somebody is bothering me and I'm
not interested, and they continue to

867
00:53:55,330 --> 00:53:57,650
bother me, what I do is I speak to them.

868
00:53:57,990 --> 00:54:00,050
I break the rule of non -verbal
communication.

869
00:54:00,410 --> 00:54:01,430
Yeah, I'm very flattered.

870
00:54:01,810 --> 00:54:03,090
That will never happen.

871
00:54:03,570 --> 00:54:04,570
Go away.

872
00:54:05,350 --> 00:54:08,570
And every single time you break that non
-verbal rule, they will go.

873
00:54:09,190 --> 00:54:11,130
They will never bother you again.

874
00:54:11,350 --> 00:54:13,370
I think there's an honesty in soreness.

875
00:54:13,730 --> 00:54:16,930
As long as you keep your mouth shut,
you're just judged by the cover.

876
00:54:17,550 --> 00:54:18,550
That's all this is.

877
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:23,530
Everybody's walking around and around
and around, picking up the book by the

878
00:54:23,530 --> 00:54:25,350
cupboard, which can be an advantage.

879
00:54:25,570 --> 00:54:32,190
Absolutely. All life is there and there,
which, it can be kind of brutal, but

880
00:54:32,190 --> 00:54:34,570
can also be quite uplifting.

881
00:54:36,450 --> 00:54:40,770
We have these tiny little digiframes
that play porn, literally, to keep your

882
00:54:40,770 --> 00:54:41,468
pecker up.

883
00:54:41,470 --> 00:54:45,510
And most of the time, when you turn the
house lights on, underneath these little

884
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:47,810
digiframes, there's just a smear of
demons.

885
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,380
People have just come against the wall
watching these little seven inch

886
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,900
You know, you've paid 16 pounds to come
here.

887
00:54:57,140 --> 00:54:58,580
Have sex with a human being.

888
00:54:58,780 --> 00:55:00,300
You can watch porn at home.

889
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:05,220
When we try and close at the end of the
night, the last ones would always be in

890
00:55:05,220 --> 00:55:09,460
the porn room, wanking away feverishly
because everyone else had gone home.

891
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:13,440
They at least needed to come before
leaving, which is fair enough.

892
00:55:20,370 --> 00:55:22,890
Yeah, I got a couple of close friends,
but they don't know I'm gay.

893
00:55:23,930 --> 00:55:28,350
Although, because I'm involved with the
prison, I told my probation officer and

894
00:55:28,350 --> 00:55:29,710
my key worker that I go in the sauna.

895
00:55:30,490 --> 00:55:32,430
Because every week you have to write
down what you've been doing.

896
00:55:33,370 --> 00:55:36,190
You know, 15 hours of purposeful
activity.

897
00:55:37,950 --> 00:55:40,450
Yeah, when I was younger, they used to
call me Biker John.

898
00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:42,570
Because of my dispatching days and that.

899
00:55:43,550 --> 00:55:46,230
Yeah, I remember I bought this motorbike
off this guy and...

900
00:55:46,570 --> 00:55:50,990
On my way home, I rode past these two
guys working on a motorbike. The same as

901
00:55:50,990 --> 00:55:51,808
my old one.

902
00:55:51,810 --> 00:55:55,470
So I pulled over and I go, You all
right, lads?

903
00:55:56,070 --> 00:55:58,850
Yeah, I've got one of them at home. I
don't use it anymore. You can have it

904
00:55:58,850 --> 00:55:59,850
spares if you want.

905
00:56:02,670 --> 00:56:03,790
One of them was quite hot.

906
00:56:04,670 --> 00:56:07,450
He was ten years younger and he had blue
eyes.

907
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:09,210
And I said to him,

908
00:56:10,110 --> 00:56:11,110
I'll be blunt.

909
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:13,670
Do you want to come home with me and
have sex with me and the missus?

910
00:56:14,890 --> 00:56:15,890
He was like,

911
00:56:16,330 --> 00:56:17,330
Yeah, alright then.

912
00:56:17,450 --> 00:56:18,450
I was like, fuck.

913
00:56:18,830 --> 00:56:20,210
Now I gotta go home and tell the missus.

914
00:56:20,970 --> 00:56:24,130
Yeah, I told Sylvia I was bisexual.

915
00:56:24,750 --> 00:56:26,790
And, um, yeah, she was cool with that.

916
00:56:28,350 --> 00:56:29,350
Alright, mate?

917
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:33,040
And then there's the poo.

918
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:34,900
And then there's the poo.

919
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,740
There's always the poo. God. There's
always poo. Yep.

920
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,180
The saying shit will happen is just a
regular thing for us.

921
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:44,300
You'll find shit up the stairs.

922
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:46,280
You'll find shit in the shower.

923
00:57:46,660 --> 00:57:49,880
You'll find shit everywhere except where
it's supposed to be.

924
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:54,200
There's the post -fuck poo, which is
falling out of their arse as they're

925
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:55,200
up the stairs.

926
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,540
There's poo up the walls and things.

927
00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:00,440
I just, I don't know how that gets
there.

928
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,660
I mean, the awful one is the jacuzzi
poo.

929
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,400
Oh, it doesn't happen that often, which
is a relief, fortunately.

930
00:58:08,660 --> 00:58:11,600
But the one that happens a hell of a lot
is the shower poo.

931
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,380
Oh, but really, like, big heaps of it.

932
00:58:14,740 --> 00:58:19,020
Which I think is because they probably
think they're going to pop a little

933
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,720
and actually it's a little more than
that.

934
00:58:23,060 --> 00:58:26,220
In all its time, when we're done with
the chat, we've cleaned up. Nobody's

935
00:58:26,220 --> 00:58:27,800
come and said... I'm really sorry.

936
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:29,120
I did a poo.

937
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,180
It's got nothing to do with them. Even
when it's falling out of their arse as

938
00:58:35,180 --> 00:58:36,180
they're going up the stairs.

939
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:37,860
You have to tell them.

940
00:58:38,140 --> 00:58:42,340
Oh, by the way, you've got shit falling
out of your arse.

941
00:58:42,780 --> 00:58:47,640
You can kind of almost divorce yourself
from the fact it was you who did the

942
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,200
poop. It is, you see, very dark, so it
is possible.

943
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,220
It wasn't me, I'm just showering.

944
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,660
But eventually you just sort of get used
to it.

945
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,400
I mean, we were at Cleaner Down, so I
had to clean.

946
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,270
But... At the end of the night, we were
cashing up the bar, and one of the

947
00:59:02,270 --> 00:59:04,310
cleaners goes to me, What's that on your
shoulder?

948
00:59:04,550 --> 00:59:05,550
And I'm like, what?

949
00:59:05,590 --> 00:59:09,010
I look down, and there's this little
piece of poo on my shoulder.

950
00:59:09,370 --> 00:59:11,870
And I'm like, that's disgusting, how
long's that been there?

951
00:59:12,090 --> 00:59:15,550
And some of the others go, Yeah, that's
been there, like, all night.

952
00:59:15,830 --> 00:59:19,430
And I'm like, I've been going around the
building with poo on my shoulder, and

953
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:21,830
none of you thought that might be
something you want to mention to me.

954
00:59:22,090 --> 00:59:24,550
And some of the others go, Well, we
thought you knew.

955
00:59:24,810 --> 00:59:28,310
And I'm like, why would I continue to go
around the building with poo on my

956
00:59:28,310 --> 00:59:29,660
shoulder? on my shoulder. If I knew it
was that.

957
00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:49,320
Someone's hand touched my hand and I
remember thinking, fuck, that is one of

958
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,920
those things when someone touches you or
makes eye contact and it means

959
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:57,100
something. So I just turned around and
there was this blow and he looked at me.

960
00:59:57,630 --> 01:00:01,250
And then I thought, fuck, this is one of
those things that you're supposed to do

961
01:00:01,250 --> 01:00:06,430
something. So I turned around and I
followed him, not knowing what I was

962
01:00:06,690 --> 01:00:10,390
I assumed because I saw the cubicles and
stuff, but I'd never really been in

963
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:11,390
one.

964
01:00:11,650 --> 01:00:16,350
And he just had the perfect body, which
was the type of body that I would have

965
01:00:16,350 --> 01:00:17,350
liked as a kid in school.

966
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:24,590
So it's like hairless, thin, white, you
know, just a normal 70s pop

967
01:00:24,590 --> 01:00:25,650
star body type thing.

968
01:00:27,259 --> 01:00:28,840
Anyway, I followed him in.

969
01:00:29,140 --> 01:00:34,120
Was he kneeling or standing or
something? And he had a hard bit and

970
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,100
thought, oh, fuck it. I have to do this.

971
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:40,640
So I just put it in my mouth, took it
out, and thought, well, okay.

972
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:42,138
That's London.

973
01:00:42,140 --> 01:00:45,880
And it just felt a bit rubbery. And it's
like, it's not my thing.

974
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:52,380
I think that's the only time, actually,
that I've ever... Sorry about that. To

975
01:00:52,380 --> 01:00:53,640
be honest, I'm not reading today.

976
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:55,040
So what are you doing here, then?

977
01:00:55,420 --> 01:00:58,760
Well, just... Hanging out, sitting in
the steam room and stuff.

978
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,040
He's like, man, you've got the perfect
body.

979
01:01:02,540 --> 01:01:06,160
You know, you've got muscles and you're
not thin and you've got hair.

980
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,400
I said to him, what do you want about
you've got the perfect body?

981
01:01:09,740 --> 01:01:12,580
That's the type of body that everyone is
supposed to have, surely.

982
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:14,740
And we had a brilliant conversation.

983
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:20,640
And it turned things around because I
went through, I guess, thinking, if I'm

984
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,340
looking at these bloke's bodies, then
maybe I'm gay.

985
01:01:23,980 --> 01:01:29,320
But I don't want to touch their bodies
or be on their bodies. I don't fancy

986
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:30,320
these guys.

987
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,620
Then I realized I probably had a good
half dozen blowjobs from blokes, but

988
01:01:34,620 --> 01:01:40,680
they've all had this perfect... It was
almost made okay by these people who had

989
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:41,680
perfect bodies.

990
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,760
It's like I want their bodies on my
bones.

991
01:01:45,420 --> 01:01:48,860
It's almost like I was vamping the body
that I should have had.

992
01:01:49,540 --> 01:01:52,740
It's like the one I wanted to be is
sucking me off.

993
01:02:07,340 --> 01:02:08,600
Time just stops in a sauna.

994
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,380
There's no light, just the electric
bulbs, and you can spend hours trying to

995
01:02:13,380 --> 01:02:17,460
find someone new, trying to find
something a little bit attractive.

996
01:02:18,900 --> 01:02:22,200
And suddenly it's 7 o 'clock in the
morning, and you really need to be going

997
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:28,820
home. And you sit on a bus, stinking of
chlorine, knowing that

998
01:02:28,820 --> 01:02:31,360
you've got a couple of people to come
inside you.

999
01:02:33,180 --> 01:02:34,880
Going past my school, and...

1000
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:39,580
the last thing you want to do is go and
teach 300 or whatever kids.

1001
01:02:40,940 --> 01:02:45,760
When I'm in the classroom, I often look
at photos of people on sex apps, like

1002
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,580
Grindr, which is highly unprofessional.

1003
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:54,600
But it's quite hilarious when you've got
26 kids in the room with you and you're

1004
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:55,860
looking at a picture of someone's cock.

1005
01:02:56,860 --> 01:02:59,320
I met someone on Grindr who lived right
next to my school.

1006
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,920
And it got to four o 'clock and he was
like...

1007
01:03:04,650 --> 01:03:05,650
Come over.

1008
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:07,470
And I left school.

1009
01:03:08,110 --> 01:03:09,250
I went round to his.

1010
01:03:10,270 --> 01:03:11,270
I fucked him.

1011
01:03:11,750 --> 01:03:12,810
Came inside him.

1012
01:03:13,490 --> 01:03:18,630
I got dressed and I walked back into
school ten minutes later having just

1013
01:03:18,630 --> 01:03:19,630
some boy who lived nearby.

1014
01:03:22,310 --> 01:03:26,630
I really like having unprotected sex
because it means the guy is willing to

1015
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:28,190
very, very intimate with me.

1016
01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:30,870
In a sauna environment.

1017
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:32,970
And it's happened recently.

1018
01:03:33,770 --> 01:03:35,530
I would turn someone down if they wanted
to.

1019
01:03:36,130 --> 01:03:38,210
It's not doing anything for me, so let's
leave it.

1020
01:03:39,350 --> 01:03:42,430
Or try and take it off and get them to
do it without it.

1021
01:03:43,510 --> 01:03:44,890
Sometimes they're well up for it.

1022
01:03:45,450 --> 01:03:50,310
Other people just aren't interested, so
you just walk away and find someone who

1023
01:03:50,310 --> 01:03:51,310
might be willing.

1024
01:03:51,930 --> 01:03:53,590
I always go drunk to a sauna.

1025
01:03:54,270 --> 01:03:59,690
One person could come inside you and you
go off, find someone else.

1026
01:04:00,330 --> 01:04:01,970
You could keep doing that all night,
really.

1027
01:04:03,850 --> 01:04:05,470
My God, why am I having sex with you?

1028
01:04:07,250 --> 01:04:11,870
Even if they're unattractive and you
might not even know their name or having

1029
01:04:11,870 --> 01:04:18,510
had a conversation, when you're in the
dark, on a mat, in a sweaty sauna,

1030
01:04:18,510 --> 01:04:23,150
taken some drugs or having taken lots of
alcohol, you're definitely very open

1031
01:04:23,150 --> 01:04:25,090
for being extremely intimate with
somebody.

1032
01:04:25,330 --> 01:04:29,450
So you don't know them, aren't
particularly attracted to them, yet

1033
01:04:29,450 --> 01:04:30,450
it's intimate.

1034
01:04:30,510 --> 01:04:31,510
It was intimate.

1035
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,440
They were sticking their cock inside me
without a condom on.

1036
01:04:35,420 --> 01:04:36,420
That's intimate.

1037
01:04:36,940 --> 01:04:39,160
They want to be with me so much, they're
willing to do that.

1038
01:04:39,420 --> 01:04:43,860
Or they want to be with you so much that
they don't care if they give you HIV.

1039
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,860
Yeah, maybe. But I think you're missing
that the ultimate fact about it is that

1040
01:04:49,860 --> 01:04:51,620
I enjoy it.

1041
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:54,360
I really like having unsafe sex.

1042
01:04:55,180 --> 01:04:56,540
That is my raison d 'etre.

1043
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:58,240
That's the way I like working.

1044
01:04:58,960 --> 01:04:59,960
It's the intimacy.

1045
01:05:00,430 --> 01:05:01,750
Why do you really enjoy it?

1046
01:05:02,430 --> 01:05:03,430
It doesn't matter.

1047
01:05:25,010 --> 01:05:27,950
I actually see a positive in the fact
that I caught it, which is that...

1048
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:29,780
I don't worry about catching it anymore.

1049
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:35,400
To me, it's like you get cancer, you
stop worrying about the fact that you

1050
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:36,400
get cancer.

1051
01:05:36,740 --> 01:05:39,940
Suddenly you know, and I can deal with
that. I can move on.

1052
01:05:41,300 --> 01:05:43,520
I was actually surprised I didn't catch
HIV earlier.

1053
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,020
Last time I went to the sauna, I managed
to get myself into a room with about

1054
01:05:49,020 --> 01:05:50,180
six other guys.

1055
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:52,920
And we all discussed our status.

1056
01:05:53,740 --> 01:05:56,020
One of the guys was like, oh, I'm
negative.

1057
01:05:56,460 --> 01:05:58,140
Let's all have unprotected sex.

1058
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,060
And some of the other guys were like,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

1059
01:06:02,780 --> 01:06:07,760
And I was like, okay, well, I'm
positive, but no medication.

1060
01:06:08,460 --> 01:06:12,740
So hey, one of them was only 19.

1061
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:17,600
He was very up for just hanging out with
me, and I ended up shagging him quite a

1062
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,080
lot and coming inside him.

1063
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:23,830
And because I told him I was positive,
and my head was justified, It was fine.

1064
01:06:27,650 --> 01:06:31,950
But even if you're not at high risk of
passing on HIV, there are other

1065
01:06:31,950 --> 01:06:33,970
transmissible STIs that are incurable.

1066
01:06:34,250 --> 01:06:40,170
Human papillomavirus, venereal war,
genital herpes, new strains of

1067
01:06:40,310 --> 01:06:42,430
and in some cases, hepatitis C.

1068
01:06:44,070 --> 01:06:45,070
It's possible.

1069
01:06:45,350 --> 01:06:47,410
It doesn't logically work like that in
my head.

1070
01:06:47,810 --> 01:06:49,370
I make sure I take my medication.

1071
01:06:49,730 --> 01:06:51,010
I get tested regularly.

1072
01:06:51,870 --> 01:06:56,270
My viral load is undetectable, so
chances of catching anything off me

1073
01:06:56,270 --> 01:06:57,270
very high.

1074
01:06:57,350 --> 01:07:00,830
And anyway, in a fauna, they won't know
who I am.

1075
01:07:01,230 --> 01:07:03,170
They have no way of tracing that back to
me.

1076
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:10,970
That's the first thing you'll hear in
the cabins.

1077
01:07:11,470 --> 01:07:13,050
It's like dealing with a zombie.

1078
01:07:13,290 --> 01:07:14,490
They don't feel pain.

1079
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:15,790
Really, just extreme.

1080
01:07:16,410 --> 01:07:19,070
They just don't know what's going on.
They are dead.

1081
01:07:19,690 --> 01:07:20,690
They're just cock.

1082
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:22,600
And their brains are dead.

1083
01:07:23,460 --> 01:07:25,160
Stop. Sit down.

1084
01:07:25,620 --> 01:07:26,620
Follow me.

1085
01:07:26,940 --> 01:07:27,940
Stay there.

1086
01:07:28,620 --> 01:07:30,460
One person can't restrain them.

1087
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,400
You need to hold them down.

1088
01:07:32,700 --> 01:07:35,080
The problem is you hold them down and
they'll nod off.

1089
01:07:35,340 --> 01:07:38,980
They want to go to sleep, which you'd
think would be an okay thing, but it's

1090
01:07:38,980 --> 01:07:42,840
not. It could mean they're about to slip
into a coma and never wake up.

1091
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:48,860
The problem is that the heart is going
slower and slower and slower.

1092
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,880
And at a certain point it... You might
just stop. You die.

1093
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:53,780
Like that.

1094
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:56,100
And we had a guy die.

1095
01:07:56,940 --> 01:07:58,200
I will never forget that.

1096
01:07:58,820 --> 01:08:01,260
I can't sleep at night because that
happened in my business.

1097
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:03,580
It was from Portugal.

1098
01:08:04,340 --> 01:08:08,020
His mother and his brother came because
they wanted to see where he died.

1099
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,100
He died in a cabin.

1100
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:12,260
With his eyes wide open.

1101
01:08:12,900 --> 01:08:13,900
Watching porn.

1102
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,180
How can you bring a mother downstairs to
show her that?

1103
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,479
Look, if it wasn't for G, I wouldn't say
we had a drug problem.

1104
01:08:23,779 --> 01:08:27,319
A drug, GHB or GBL, has suddenly
blossomed.

1105
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:29,880
G is basically the same thing.

1106
01:08:30,180 --> 01:08:32,260
You need millilitres to get high.

1107
01:08:32,899 --> 01:08:34,479
It's a chemical car cleaner.

1108
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:36,819
It's sold over the internet.

1109
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:38,640
Totally legal.

1110
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,479
Incredibly cheap.

1111
01:08:40,779 --> 01:08:43,380
It works out about 20 pence for high.

1112
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,880
And of all the party drugs, it's the
only one that doesn't inhibit your

1113
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:48,880
to have an erection.

1114
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:54,880
As opposed to crystal meth or cocaine or
ecstasy, which, well, they'll lower

1115
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:57,800
your inhibitions, but they also lower
your penis.

1116
01:08:59,260 --> 01:09:02,760
Look, it's really been used. Like,
people use pop.

1117
01:09:03,420 --> 01:09:05,080
They can't have sex without it.

1118
01:09:05,380 --> 01:09:10,720
So, if they're going out to see
somebody, their key is their phone,

1119
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:17,399
And what happens with G, though, is if
you take just a little bit too much, you

1120
01:09:17,399 --> 01:09:18,399
die.

1121
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,200
I don't actually think that we have a
particularly big drug problem.

1122
01:09:24,580 --> 01:09:26,140
We do regular bag searches.

1123
01:09:26,540 --> 01:09:28,020
You know, we are doing what we can.

1124
01:09:28,899 --> 01:09:30,399
We're looking at motion sensors.

1125
01:09:30,859 --> 01:09:33,359
So if you're having sex and moving, the
lights are off.

1126
01:09:33,939 --> 01:09:37,120
Once the lights are off, they'll open up
and kick you out.

1127
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:42,899
In the last few months, we've had about
two G -cases per month.

1128
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:47,479
And in that month, 10 ,000 people have
come through the building.

1129
01:09:48,170 --> 01:09:50,890
And too often are left in an ambulance.

1130
01:09:52,310 --> 01:09:55,410
And the majority of our customers are
not using drugs.

1131
01:09:56,150 --> 01:09:58,770
And there are two reasons that we don't
tolerate drug use.

1132
01:09:59,270 --> 01:10:00,730
One is because it's illegal.

1133
01:10:01,170 --> 01:10:06,190
And the majority of people don't like a
messy brain.

1134
01:10:07,330 --> 01:10:08,750
It's not very sexy.

1135
01:10:09,290 --> 01:10:10,790
And it's not good for business.

1136
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,560
How many times have you been to a gay
sauna?

1137
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:28,720
Three times.

1138
01:10:29,580 --> 01:10:34,640
One six years ago, and one three weeks
ago, and one two weeks ago.

1139
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:38,680
Yeah, I'm more the sort of protagonist.

1140
01:10:39,540 --> 01:10:40,680
Yeah, I'll make the first move.

1141
01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:44,820
But sometimes I just lie in one of them
rooms and keep the door open.

1142
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,620
Please, somebody just come in and do
something to me.

1143
01:10:51,540 --> 01:10:52,540
Yeah, sometimes it works.

1144
01:10:52,990 --> 01:10:53,990
Sometimes it doesn't.

1145
01:10:54,570 --> 01:10:57,230
Sometimes people come in, but they just
want to have sex.

1146
01:11:09,210 --> 01:11:10,550
Yeah, I'm not really interested in sex.

1147
01:11:11,150 --> 01:11:12,150
Yeah, I'd rather.

1148
01:11:29,610 --> 01:11:33,190
It's hard to rape somebody with weights
of thin walls in a tiny cabin.

1149
01:11:33,750 --> 01:11:36,470
Pinning somebody down and having sex
with them against their will.

1150
01:11:36,850 --> 01:11:40,470
Well, that's never going to happen.
Because somebody else will hear. In that

1151
01:11:40,470 --> 01:11:46,030
sort of scenario, it's a way safer place
to have sex than at home. But what is a

1152
01:11:46,030 --> 01:11:51,590
top? When a lot of people are having
unprotected sex, kind of against their

1153
01:11:51,590 --> 01:11:55,230
will, because, you know, I didn't know
what I was doing. I was really high. Or

1154
01:11:55,230 --> 01:11:58,630
he gave me this. Or, oh, well, the top
didn't want to.

1155
01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:00,540
I didn't want to say no.

1156
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,420
I don't like confrontation.

1157
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:04,280
Yeah, well, don't have sex.

1158
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,500
You know, it's kind of straightforward.

1159
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:09,720
This isn't a difficult equation.

1160
01:12:10,300 --> 01:12:11,940
Just don't have risky sex.

1161
01:12:12,180 --> 01:12:16,620
You can have as much sex as you like. As
long as you always wear a condom. You

1162
01:12:16,620 --> 01:12:19,940
know, I've had every sexual experience
in the universe.

1163
01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:22,460
And I've managed to stay negative.

1164
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:24,480
It's not inevitable.

1165
01:12:25,340 --> 01:12:26,340
It's really not.

1166
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:28,160
Because...

1167
01:12:29,310 --> 01:12:31,290
It's not about the amount of sex that
you have.

1168
01:12:31,790 --> 01:12:36,610
It's about the degree of responsibility
that you take when you have that sex. We

1169
01:12:36,610 --> 01:12:40,430
provide sexual health information. We
have HIV testing on Mondays.

1170
01:12:40,710 --> 01:12:43,070
All our porn is protected sex.

1171
01:12:43,490 --> 01:12:45,570
Rather than unprotected sex.

1172
01:12:45,930 --> 01:12:50,410
And, unlike home, we always provide
condoms and lube. Yeah.

1173
01:12:50,890 --> 01:12:54,830
We're not judgmental if somebody chooses
to have unprotected sex.

1174
01:12:55,470 --> 01:12:56,470
But...

1175
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:01,960
We abhor the promotion of barebacking.
Because it fetishizes something that's

1176
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:03,400
actually just dangerous.

1177
01:13:04,140 --> 01:13:08,200
And then there's this whole thing about,
oh, well, it's the education,

1178
01:13:08,420 --> 01:13:09,420
education, education.

1179
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,640
The fucking education has been there.

1180
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,560
People choose not to know.

1181
01:13:16,460 --> 01:13:17,680
It's not education.

1182
01:13:18,500 --> 01:13:20,320
It's attitude that needs to change.

1183
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:26,000
In the space of a year, about five of my
friends, all zero -converted, all...

1184
01:13:26,250 --> 01:13:27,250
Through stupidity.

1185
01:13:27,750 --> 01:13:32,010
I had to sit there with them crying on
my shoulder and pretend it's going to be

1186
01:13:32,010 --> 01:13:34,470
fine. Because it will be fine.

1187
01:13:34,970 --> 01:13:37,190
It is treatable. It is dealable with.

1188
01:13:37,830 --> 01:13:40,750
But this isn't what I want for a 25
-year -old boy.

1189
01:13:40,990 --> 01:13:42,490
Yes, you can treat it with pills.

1190
01:13:43,110 --> 01:13:47,390
Yes, you can. But nonetheless, you've
got poison in your blood.

1191
01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:51,130
You're going to have to explain that to
anybody you're ever going to have an

1192
01:13:51,130 --> 01:13:52,130
important connection with.

1193
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:56,160
It's the difficult part. Yeah, but what
you're talking about there is reducing

1194
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:59,040
the stigma of being HIV positive. Yeah,
exactly.

1195
01:13:59,380 --> 01:14:03,260
You've got some people saying you can
catch it from anyone. Everybody's got

1196
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,400
Yeah, so worry, worry, worry, worry
about staying negative.

1197
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:10,800
And then you've got the other people who
are saying, oh, look, everything's fine

1198
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:11,800
when you're positive.

1199
01:14:12,020 --> 01:14:13,020
So no stress.

1200
01:14:13,540 --> 01:14:14,540
No worries.

1201
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:19,140
You don't have to wear a condom anymore.
And you can ride a bike and run a

1202
01:14:19,140 --> 01:14:20,140
marathon.

1203
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:22,640
Listen.

1204
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,300
I don't want to sound like a Daily
Telegraph reader, because I'm not.

1205
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:33,400
I am a liberal, but I do genuinely
believe that at a certain point we have

1206
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:34,400
say, man up.

1207
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:36,160
Really.

1208
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:38,400
Take responsibility for yourself.

1209
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:00,400
How old are you?

1210
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,000
52, and I'm still at it.

1211
01:15:03,460 --> 01:15:04,780
No, I'm all right, brother. I'm cool.

1212
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:06,240
You're nice.

1213
01:15:06,460 --> 01:15:07,460
You're nice.

1214
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:08,920
What are you doing here?

1215
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:10,180
Come here for a fuck.

1216
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:12,200
Yeah, but you're 52.

1217
01:15:12,500 --> 01:15:14,500
Yeah. Well, I'm young at heart.

1218
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,640
Look, it's almost 9 o 'clock, and I've
got to go.

1219
01:15:18,900 --> 01:15:20,000
There's a curfew where I live.

1220
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,840
It's a hospital run by the probation
service, so I've got to leave before 9,

1221
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:25,120
because I have to find him by 11.

1222
01:16:17,740 --> 01:16:23,760
People, they just want to have, I
suppose, uncomplicated sex and move on

1223
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:24,760
next one.

1224
01:16:25,340 --> 01:16:29,340
I want something a bit more intense, a
bit more long -lasting.

1225
01:16:30,420 --> 01:16:36,780
I haven't really found any kind of deep,
meaningful, loving relationship because

1226
01:16:36,780 --> 01:16:42,540
I haven't really had time, you know, of
being in prison, drugs.

1227
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:49,000
I suppose that's why now I've got to see
if I can find that to make up for lost

1228
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:49,839
time, really.

1229
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:55,400
I'm fucking aching for it, Lloyd, to be
honest. I'm aching to find somewhere and

1230
01:16:55,400 --> 01:17:02,020
share my life with what's left of it and
my love. I've got so much love and

1231
01:17:02,020 --> 01:17:05,180
affection that I've never been able to
express for so long.

1232
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:07,880
It's painful.

1233
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:10,380
It's painful, man.

1234
01:17:10,830 --> 01:17:16,370
And that's why I look on the internet,
and that's why I come here, because it's

1235
01:17:16,370 --> 01:17:17,370
another door that's opened.

1236
01:17:17,670 --> 01:17:20,570
You never know where this is going to
lead. You never know if whatever.

1237
01:17:20,830 --> 01:17:21,830
I don't know.

1238
01:17:22,110 --> 01:17:23,650
I've just got to keep looking, innit?

1239
01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:24,910
Just got to keep looking.

1240
01:17:42,380 --> 01:17:44,620
My sexuality was a big thing for me for
years.

1241
01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:47,940
I fought it for a long time.

1242
01:17:48,940 --> 01:17:49,940
You know?

1243
01:17:50,500 --> 01:17:53,520
Going with women, I tried to control my
urges.

1244
01:17:54,100 --> 01:17:57,080
But I've done my time with women and I
enjoyed it.

1245
01:17:57,800 --> 01:17:58,800
But I'm not bisexual.

1246
01:17:59,780 --> 01:18:06,360
To be blunt, I like, you know... Deep
down, I reckon I'm

1247
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:07,360
proper gay.

1248
01:18:08,140 --> 01:18:09,140
Can't change that.

1249
01:18:09,900 --> 01:18:11,480
I like male company.

1250
01:18:12,160 --> 01:18:13,160
I like sex with men.

1251
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:16,360
I'm looking for a relationship with a
guy.

1252
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:18,320
That's what I want.

1253
01:18:19,420 --> 01:18:24,540
It'll be a new experience for me to come
home from work and find a boyfriend

1254
01:18:24,540 --> 01:18:25,980
rather than a girlfriend.

1255
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:29,120
I've never experienced that.

1256
01:18:29,660 --> 01:18:30,920
And it's something I'd like to do.

1257
01:18:34,580 --> 01:18:36,040
Just to be settled.

1258
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:38,120
You know?

1259
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:40,300
The normality of life.

1260
01:18:41,820 --> 01:18:45,060
Just to ask someone you can express
thoughts with.