1 00:00:07,115 --> 00:00:08,417 - Throughout history, 2 00:00:08,516 --> 00:00:09,789 there have been universal characters 3 00:00:09,813 --> 00:00:12,555 that we told stories about 4 00:00:12,653 --> 00:00:15,758 as a way of demonstrating morals 5 00:00:15,852 --> 00:00:18,394 or challenges that you face. 6 00:00:18,492 --> 00:00:20,529 There were religious characters, 7 00:00:20,628 --> 00:00:24,968 mythic characters, kings and queens. 8 00:00:25,067 --> 00:00:27,636 Superheroes are what they are now, 9 00:00:27,735 --> 00:00:29,939 and it's why I believe in them as much as I do. 10 00:00:32,473 --> 00:00:34,243 - Heroism is just very simple. 11 00:00:36,544 --> 00:00:38,147 Anytime somebody uses courage 12 00:00:38,246 --> 00:00:40,483 when they're afraid 13 00:00:40,582 --> 00:00:43,152 in the name of something good. 14 00:00:43,251 --> 00:00:44,553 - In the movies, 15 00:00:44,652 --> 00:00:46,923 superheroes are icons of virtue, 16 00:00:47,021 --> 00:00:49,258 symbols of our highest ideals. 17 00:00:49,357 --> 00:00:50,867 - I got really obsessed with the comics, 18 00:00:50,891 --> 00:00:53,596 obviously, once I started doing the research. 19 00:00:53,695 --> 00:00:55,198 And I love them. 20 00:00:55,297 --> 00:00:56,741 - Oh, I still play with action figures, man, 21 00:00:56,765 --> 00:00:57,934 all the time. 22 00:00:58,027 --> 00:00:59,468 - There isn't a day that goes by 23 00:00:59,567 --> 00:01:01,837 when you don't walk past someone in a Batman T-shirt. 24 00:01:01,936 --> 00:01:04,173 - But the leap from page to screen 25 00:01:04,271 --> 00:01:08,344 took decades and a lot of persuasion. 26 00:01:08,443 --> 00:01:09,946 - A huge part of why 27 00:01:10,044 --> 00:01:12,181 there were so few comic book adaptations 28 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,117 in the '80s and '90s is you had a lot 29 00:01:14,210 --> 00:01:15,755 of people in Hollywood that didn't believe 30 00:01:15,779 --> 00:01:17,286 in the source material. 31 00:01:17,385 --> 00:01:19,388 - Studio execs, they looked down their nose 32 00:01:19,487 --> 00:01:23,087 at the creators and said comic book characters 33 00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:24,693 didn't have much value. 34 00:01:24,792 --> 00:01:27,763 - As Hollywood learned to make superheroes fly, 35 00:01:27,862 --> 00:01:29,565 passionate creators 36 00:01:29,663 --> 00:01:32,335 transformed comics from child's play 37 00:01:32,434 --> 00:01:36,100 to sophisticated entertainment for grown-ups. 38 00:01:36,203 --> 00:01:38,574 - People who are too precious about the characters 39 00:01:38,673 --> 00:01:41,477 are never going to stretch the boundaries. 40 00:01:41,576 --> 00:01:45,648 - There was something about the writing and the art. 41 00:01:45,746 --> 00:01:48,584 It was just so smart and daring. 42 00:01:50,318 --> 00:01:52,355 - That rebellious spirit 43 00:01:52,453 --> 00:01:54,890 plus the devotion of lifelong fans, 44 00:01:54,989 --> 00:01:57,121 pushed superheroes to the center 45 00:01:57,225 --> 00:01:58,594 of popular culture 46 00:01:58,692 --> 00:02:01,998 and our collective imagination. 47 00:02:02,095 --> 00:02:05,034 - What would it be like if I could be a hero, 48 00:02:05,133 --> 00:02:07,036 if I could change the world? 49 00:02:07,134 --> 00:02:09,973 That's at the core of the superhero stories. 50 00:02:10,071 --> 00:02:12,942 There's something in our moral compass 51 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,646 that tells us it's OK to want to fight for what's right. 52 00:02:17,745 --> 00:02:21,050 That's really the power. That's really being super. 53 00:02:35,997 --> 00:02:38,467 - The first superhero to get a screen adaptation 54 00:02:38,566 --> 00:02:41,004 was not the one you might think. 55 00:02:41,101 --> 00:02:44,073 Captain Marvel had all of Superman's powers 56 00:02:44,172 --> 00:02:46,742 and outsold him in the 1940s. 57 00:02:46,841 --> 00:02:48,611 The comic told the story of a boy 58 00:02:48,710 --> 00:02:51,047 who could turn into a superhero 59 00:02:51,146 --> 00:02:52,215 with a single word. 60 00:02:52,313 --> 00:02:54,750 - Shazam! 61 00:02:54,848 --> 00:02:58,387 - And in 1941, Captain Marvel starred in his own 62 00:02:58,486 --> 00:03:00,289 12-part movie serial 63 00:03:00,388 --> 00:03:02,358 that transfixed young audiences 64 00:03:02,457 --> 00:03:04,188 at Saturday matinees. 65 00:03:04,291 --> 00:03:07,796 But it would take 78 years, a name change, and a short run 66 00:03:07,895 --> 00:03:11,567 at TV before Captain Marvel made it to the multiplex 67 00:03:11,667 --> 00:03:16,940 in 2019 as "Shazam." 68 00:03:17,038 --> 00:03:19,542 The film revived the timeless tale 69 00:03:19,641 --> 00:03:21,244 of a powerless child who becomes 70 00:03:21,342 --> 00:03:23,079 a superpowered adult. 71 00:03:23,178 --> 00:03:25,681 - Shazam! 72 00:03:27,482 --> 00:03:29,052 - In everyone's life at some point, 73 00:03:29,149 --> 00:03:32,688 we had dreams of becoming something like a superhero. 74 00:03:32,787 --> 00:03:35,992 Stronger or faster or more heroic in the world. 75 00:03:36,091 --> 00:03:37,493 - All hands on deck. 76 00:03:37,592 --> 00:03:39,223 Shazam! 77 00:03:40,795 --> 00:03:43,799 - This movie's touching base with that inner child 78 00:03:43,899 --> 00:03:45,768 in all of us. 79 00:03:47,368 --> 00:03:49,372 - Roll, please! Rolling! 80 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,444 - All right, fam-jam, you know what time it is. 81 00:03:55,543 --> 00:03:57,446 Let's jump in. Let's jump in. 82 00:03:57,545 --> 00:03:59,548 So going into the second movie, 83 00:03:59,647 --> 00:04:01,592 this was one of my favorite sets I've ever been on, 84 00:04:01,616 --> 00:04:03,519 of any project I've ever worked on. 85 00:04:03,618 --> 00:04:05,588 - Mary, why do you even have a job? 86 00:04:05,686 --> 00:04:07,123 You think Wonder Woman has a job? 87 00:04:07,222 --> 00:04:08,424 - Stop. - No, no, seriously. 88 00:04:08,522 --> 00:04:09,825 Do you think she wears a ponytail 89 00:04:09,924 --> 00:04:11,535 and glasses and, like, nobody recognizes her 90 00:04:11,559 --> 00:04:12,904 and she's, like, an accountant or something? 91 00:04:12,928 --> 00:04:14,030 - Just stop. 92 00:04:14,129 --> 00:04:15,539 - It's a really fun role to play because 93 00:04:15,563 --> 00:04:16,933 I just get to keep being a kid. 94 00:04:17,031 --> 00:04:19,635 Who are you people? 95 00:04:19,734 --> 00:04:21,737 - I said don't freak out! Look at me. 96 00:04:21,835 --> 00:04:23,539 And video games kind of keeps me 97 00:04:23,638 --> 00:04:25,808 in that childish play mode, and I think 98 00:04:25,907 --> 00:04:29,245 that when your job is to play as a child, 99 00:04:29,344 --> 00:04:32,881 then you want to kind of stay in that playful place. 100 00:04:35,749 --> 00:04:37,520 This shouldn't feel like work. 101 00:04:37,618 --> 00:04:38,863 We're playing dress up and make believe, 102 00:04:38,887 --> 00:04:40,823 and we're getting paid for it. 103 00:04:40,921 --> 00:04:42,425 That was one of the greatest things 104 00:04:42,524 --> 00:04:44,360 about the first movie was hearing people 105 00:04:44,459 --> 00:04:45,661 walk out of the theater 106 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,200 and they just felt better about life. 107 00:04:47,229 --> 00:04:48,364 They just felt lighter. 108 00:04:48,463 --> 00:04:50,599 There's so much that is wrong 109 00:04:50,698 --> 00:04:52,969 with this world right now, and we have opportunities 110 00:04:53,067 --> 00:04:55,171 as artists and as creators and as entertainers 111 00:04:55,270 --> 00:04:56,639 to help lift that burden 112 00:04:56,737 --> 00:04:58,874 just a little bit, man, just a little bit. 113 00:04:58,973 --> 00:05:01,277 We need to 'cause it's dark out right now. 114 00:05:03,778 --> 00:05:06,682 - 50 years before Shazam made it to the big screen, 115 00:05:06,781 --> 00:05:10,314 the world stood at a different precipice. 116 00:05:16,191 --> 00:05:19,295 - As a young person, it just felt like 117 00:05:19,393 --> 00:05:21,730 there was no answer anywhere. 118 00:05:21,830 --> 00:05:23,632 What do you do in the world 119 00:05:23,731 --> 00:05:26,502 when there is a prevailing culture 120 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,571 where the enemy is sometimes faceless? 121 00:05:28,669 --> 00:05:31,874 How do you fight that fight? 122 00:05:31,973 --> 00:05:35,912 - And that's when I was beginning to feel like 123 00:05:36,011 --> 00:05:38,514 I was outgrowing my comic books. 124 00:05:38,613 --> 00:05:40,984 And just at that time, 125 00:05:41,082 --> 00:05:44,853 the Marvel age really truly erupted. 126 00:05:44,952 --> 00:05:47,456 - As Marvel launched its first Black superhero 127 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:49,959 and took on pressing social problems, 128 00:05:50,057 --> 00:05:53,529 the campy shenanigans of Adam West's "Batman" 129 00:05:53,628 --> 00:05:56,699 felt out of step and painfully square. 130 00:05:56,797 --> 00:05:59,668 - At that moment in time in the mid '60s, 131 00:05:59,762 --> 00:06:02,972 except to the few of us who were real comic book readers, 132 00:06:03,070 --> 00:06:07,143 the world perception of what Batman was was this show. 133 00:06:07,242 --> 00:06:09,845 And that was what was so disturbing 134 00:06:09,939 --> 00:06:11,375 to me about it, 135 00:06:11,479 --> 00:06:15,284 and I made a vow, somehow, someday, 136 00:06:15,383 --> 00:06:19,188 some way I am going to show 137 00:06:19,287 --> 00:06:21,057 the world the true Batman. 138 00:06:21,155 --> 00:06:24,093 - Young fans like Uslan, driven by their deep love 139 00:06:24,191 --> 00:06:26,963 of the characters and devotion to the medium, 140 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:30,299 would start a new age in American comics. 141 00:06:30,398 --> 00:06:33,102 - Every generation deserves to have characters 142 00:06:33,201 --> 00:06:35,671 that fit within their generation. 143 00:06:35,769 --> 00:06:39,308 So being kids of the '60s, we had wanted very much 144 00:06:39,407 --> 00:06:42,611 to do some important stories. 145 00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:44,747 - It wasn't like we were the future 146 00:06:44,845 --> 00:06:47,050 Young Turks plotting a revolution, 147 00:06:47,149 --> 00:06:49,152 but on the other hand, we were the Young Turks 148 00:06:49,250 --> 00:06:50,319 plotting the revolution. 149 00:06:50,418 --> 00:06:51,587 We were looking to what 150 00:06:51,685 --> 00:06:53,189 the future of the field could be. 151 00:06:53,288 --> 00:06:55,858 - Writer Denny O'Neil and artist Neal Adams 152 00:06:55,957 --> 00:06:58,794 set out to change the comics landscape 153 00:06:58,893 --> 00:07:01,664 by putting the real world in their panels. 154 00:07:01,762 --> 00:07:05,634 - They took two superheroes who were really failing. 155 00:07:08,803 --> 00:07:11,707 Green Arrow representing a liberal outlook, 156 00:07:11,806 --> 00:07:14,177 and Green Lantern with a conservative outlook 157 00:07:14,275 --> 00:07:16,913 get in a pickup truck and hit the road 158 00:07:17,012 --> 00:07:19,215 to try to discover America. 159 00:07:19,314 --> 00:07:23,286 - Over 14 installments, Green Lantern and Green Arrow 160 00:07:23,385 --> 00:07:25,688 come face to face with big national issues, 161 00:07:25,787 --> 00:07:29,792 like overpopulation, discrimination, 162 00:07:29,891 --> 00:07:33,696 pollution, and drug addiction. 163 00:07:33,789 --> 00:07:36,132 - We both grew up at the time that we grew up, 164 00:07:36,231 --> 00:07:39,702 and we were very angry at society. 165 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,737 That was a time of change, remember the '60s, 166 00:07:41,835 --> 00:07:44,974 big changes in America, and that was right there 167 00:07:45,073 --> 00:07:47,376 in that comic book. Bam, right in your face. 168 00:07:47,475 --> 00:07:51,414 - That was a turning point for DC Comics 169 00:07:51,512 --> 00:07:52,916 that began to be reflected 170 00:07:53,015 --> 00:07:55,479 in other comics and other heroes 171 00:07:55,583 --> 00:07:57,286 and being daring and being bold. 172 00:07:57,385 --> 00:08:00,523 - Legendary Marvel artist Jack Kirby 173 00:08:00,622 --> 00:08:02,625 came to DC in 1970 174 00:08:02,718 --> 00:08:05,694 to write his spiritual saga "New Gods." 175 00:08:07,595 --> 00:08:10,399 - It was basically his epic, his retelling of the Bible. 176 00:08:10,498 --> 00:08:11,700 This is how everything began. 177 00:08:11,799 --> 00:08:13,169 This is how it's all going to end. 178 00:08:13,267 --> 00:08:15,438 This is what good is. This is what evil is. 179 00:08:15,531 --> 00:08:16,940 Every page has 1,000 concepts 180 00:08:17,037 --> 00:08:18,741 that could launch 1,000 story ships. 181 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:21,911 It's the most inspiring piece of art ever. 182 00:08:22,009 --> 00:08:25,881 - In 1972, Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson 183 00:08:25,980 --> 00:08:30,619 grafted the soul of a hero to the body of a monster, 184 00:08:30,719 --> 00:08:33,156 with "Swamp Thing." 185 00:08:33,254 --> 00:08:36,292 - Wrightson's art was just emotional 186 00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:39,562 and weird and beautiful all at the same time. 187 00:08:39,660 --> 00:08:43,900 And Len's writing had what I call a pulp poetry to it. 188 00:08:43,999 --> 00:08:45,801 It's a classic that, for me, still stands 189 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:47,511 as one of the very best things that's come 190 00:08:47,535 --> 00:08:49,238 out of DC in all these years. 191 00:08:49,337 --> 00:08:52,275 - But in a shortsighted attempt to modernize 192 00:08:52,373 --> 00:08:55,111 a member of the DC pantheon, male editors 193 00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:57,914 stripped Wonder Woman of her superpowers 194 00:08:58,013 --> 00:09:00,984 and trained her in Kung Fu. 195 00:09:01,083 --> 00:09:03,152 - They had made her give up her costume, 196 00:09:03,251 --> 00:09:06,923 and she was gonna be Groovy Diana Prince. 197 00:09:07,022 --> 00:09:09,192 She's like a spy. She's modern. 198 00:09:09,291 --> 00:09:10,960 She's groovy. 199 00:09:11,058 --> 00:09:13,529 And I was like, "I don't want to read this comic book." 200 00:09:13,627 --> 00:09:15,131 - What do you want? - ERA! 201 00:09:15,230 --> 00:09:17,233 - When do you want it? - Now! 202 00:09:17,332 --> 00:09:19,235 - DC's blunder caught the attention 203 00:09:19,334 --> 00:09:21,670 of a rising leader in the feminist movement, 204 00:09:21,770 --> 00:09:23,372 Gloria Steinem. 205 00:09:23,471 --> 00:09:26,709 - Wonder Woman was very feminist and ruled 206 00:09:26,808 --> 00:09:30,013 with strength and justice and love 207 00:09:30,110 --> 00:09:33,616 and was meant to be an antidote to the violence 208 00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:36,219 in male-dominated comics. 209 00:09:36,317 --> 00:09:37,795 And we decided it would be interesting 210 00:09:37,819 --> 00:09:39,022 to run her for president. 211 00:09:39,121 --> 00:09:40,856 So it says "Peace and justice in '72." 212 00:09:40,954 --> 00:09:44,293 - Since you brought it up, wave it in that camera. 213 00:09:44,392 --> 00:09:46,729 - The debut issue of "Ms." Magazine 214 00:09:46,827 --> 00:09:48,998 featured an essay about Wonder Woman 215 00:09:49,096 --> 00:09:52,701 as a model of strength and self-sufficiency. 216 00:09:52,801 --> 00:09:54,737 DC got the memo. 217 00:09:54,835 --> 00:09:57,974 Wonder Woman got her mojo back, 218 00:09:58,071 --> 00:10:00,910 and a few years later, ABC started looking 219 00:10:01,008 --> 00:10:03,279 for the perfect actress to bring the mythic figure 220 00:10:03,378 --> 00:10:05,281 to life on TV. 221 00:10:05,379 --> 00:10:08,384 - I really got to create my character. 222 00:10:08,482 --> 00:10:10,519 There was nothing before me. 223 00:10:10,618 --> 00:10:14,618 And I had no idea what I was doing. 224 00:10:14,722 --> 00:10:17,226 So there was a certain naivete. 225 00:10:17,325 --> 00:10:21,730 I did a lot of exploration on the mythology 226 00:10:21,829 --> 00:10:24,000 and what I could bring to this character. 227 00:10:24,099 --> 00:10:26,970 And it wasn't really on the page. 228 00:10:27,068 --> 00:10:29,838 It was people like Betty Friedan, 229 00:10:29,937 --> 00:10:34,043 Gloria Steinem, and the suffragists. 230 00:10:34,142 --> 00:10:39,682 I am woman, hear me roar kind of feminism, 231 00:10:39,781 --> 00:10:42,685 that was Wonder Woman. 232 00:10:47,689 --> 00:10:50,093 - ♪ Wonder Woman ♪ 233 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:53,997 - In the fall of 1975, Carter's iconic "Wonder Woman" 234 00:10:54,094 --> 00:10:56,966 blazed onto TV screens, setting young hearts 235 00:10:57,065 --> 00:10:59,235 across the nation on fire. 236 00:10:59,334 --> 00:11:01,905 - There had not been a role model 237 00:11:02,004 --> 00:11:03,839 that you could emulate. 238 00:11:03,939 --> 00:11:05,274 And I was right at the age where 239 00:11:05,373 --> 00:11:07,510 pretending to be someone on the playground yard 240 00:11:07,610 --> 00:11:09,212 was a huge deal. 241 00:11:09,310 --> 00:11:11,283 All of the kids would run out, and they would be Superman 242 00:11:11,307 --> 00:11:12,281 or they'd be He-Man 243 00:11:12,380 --> 00:11:14,250 or they'd be something like that. 244 00:11:14,349 --> 00:11:16,652 And when "Wonder Woman" came out, 245 00:11:16,751 --> 00:11:18,554 it was such a revelation. 246 00:11:22,523 --> 00:11:24,688 That suddenly, you were desperate to be 247 00:11:24,792 --> 00:11:27,230 the one that claimed that you were Wonder Woman. 248 00:11:29,163 --> 00:11:31,100 I got a chance to experience 249 00:11:31,199 --> 00:11:32,868 exactly what the boys were experiencing, 250 00:11:32,967 --> 00:11:35,699 not in a boy-like way. 251 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:40,376 I was having my own absolute wish fulfillment. 252 00:11:40,474 --> 00:11:43,980 - You can all be what you truly want to be. 253 00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:46,415 You're all very special. 254 00:11:47,643 --> 00:11:50,053 And you're all different. 255 00:11:50,151 --> 00:11:52,221 - Lynda was like the every woman 256 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:53,957 that you wished you could be. 257 00:11:54,055 --> 00:11:56,292 - I never played Wonder Woman. 258 00:11:56,391 --> 00:11:58,527 I only played Diana. 259 00:11:58,627 --> 00:12:01,664 The key to Wonder Woman 260 00:12:01,757 --> 00:12:06,469 is that she, as Diana, was relatable. 261 00:12:08,002 --> 00:12:09,505 - Lynda Carter is famous for inventing 262 00:12:09,604 --> 00:12:11,248 the spin where she turned from Diana Prince 263 00:12:11,272 --> 00:12:13,176 to Wonder Woman on the TV show. 264 00:12:13,274 --> 00:12:15,644 With the explosion of light and the transformation 265 00:12:15,738 --> 00:12:17,981 from one sort of neat character 266 00:12:18,079 --> 00:12:20,516 to this powerful superhero, 267 00:12:20,614 --> 00:12:23,152 I was reminded of the power 268 00:12:23,251 --> 00:12:25,821 to become something bigger than yourself. 269 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,751 And I think even at a young age, 270 00:12:27,856 --> 00:12:29,192 it was something that spoke to me. 271 00:12:29,290 --> 00:12:31,060 It was something that resonated with me. 272 00:12:32,926 --> 00:12:35,965 - It isn't just putting a woman 273 00:12:36,064 --> 00:12:38,902 in a superhero costume. 274 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,638 It's about somehow convincing the world 275 00:12:42,737 --> 00:12:45,174 that there is a better way. 276 00:12:45,273 --> 00:12:46,851 - You really do believe that people can learn 277 00:12:46,875 --> 00:12:48,211 to change for the better? 278 00:12:48,311 --> 00:12:49,745 - Yes. 279 00:12:49,844 --> 00:12:51,314 Where I was raised, we were taught 280 00:12:51,413 --> 00:12:53,983 that good must triumph over evil 281 00:12:54,082 --> 00:12:57,553 and that women and men can learn. 282 00:12:59,321 --> 00:13:01,657 - "Wonder Woman's" message of equality 283 00:13:01,755 --> 00:13:04,193 reverberated around the world. 284 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,899 While back at home, another popular show 285 00:13:09,997 --> 00:13:12,135 fielded a whole squad of superheroes 286 00:13:12,233 --> 00:13:16,039 whose adventures taught the value of teamwork. 287 00:13:16,136 --> 00:13:18,174 - In the Great Hall of the Justice League, 288 00:13:18,273 --> 00:13:20,009 there are assembled 289 00:13:20,108 --> 00:13:21,610 the world's four greatest heroes. 290 00:13:21,709 --> 00:13:23,846 - "Super Friends" was TV's first team up 291 00:13:23,945 --> 00:13:25,381 of all of these characters. 292 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,383 It was the first time that I'm not just 293 00:13:27,481 --> 00:13:29,093 going to get a Superman story, and I'm not just 294 00:13:29,117 --> 00:13:30,619 going to get a Wonder Woman story, 295 00:13:30,718 --> 00:13:32,521 and I'm not just going to get a Batman story. 296 00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:34,331 I'm gonna get all of these characters together. 297 00:13:34,355 --> 00:13:35,992 It's kind of obvious that, right, 298 00:13:36,091 --> 00:13:37,562 that we would all grow up and want to do 299 00:13:37,586 --> 00:13:39,362 comic book shows and movies. 300 00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:41,430 - But to many comics readers, the fourth member 301 00:13:41,529 --> 00:13:46,569 of this superhero dream team still felt like a fifth wheel. 302 00:13:46,668 --> 00:13:48,404 - If my aquatic telepathy 303 00:13:48,503 --> 00:13:50,506 works on these strange Exxorian fish, 304 00:13:50,605 --> 00:13:54,643 I should be able to stop Darkon's men. 305 00:13:54,742 --> 00:13:58,314 - Aquaman was considered a joke of a character, 306 00:13:58,413 --> 00:14:01,384 and I remember when I started writing the "Aquaman" book, 307 00:14:01,477 --> 00:14:02,618 and people told me, 308 00:14:02,717 --> 00:14:04,397 "Why are you wasting your time on Aquaman?" 309 00:14:04,485 --> 00:14:06,689 But as a writer, it's just much more fun to me 310 00:14:06,787 --> 00:14:09,993 to take an obscure character and crack them open 311 00:14:10,091 --> 00:14:13,529 and look at them and really get inside them 312 00:14:13,622 --> 00:14:16,265 because it hadn't been done. 313 00:14:16,358 --> 00:14:19,768 If I look at Aquaman and say if his world and his stories 314 00:14:19,867 --> 00:14:22,271 are as rich and deep as Batman and Superman 315 00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:26,041 and everyone else, what are they? 316 00:14:27,375 --> 00:14:30,513 - Geoff Johns' 2011 retelling of the Aquaman story 317 00:14:30,612 --> 00:14:33,316 filled in the under-loved hero's world 318 00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:37,220 on land and beneath the sea. 319 00:14:37,318 --> 00:14:39,655 John's book would become the blueprint 320 00:14:39,755 --> 00:14:41,524 for a 2018 screen adaptation 321 00:14:41,623 --> 00:14:43,759 with a star who bore little resemblance 322 00:14:43,858 --> 00:14:47,263 to the title character, at least on the surface. 323 00:14:47,362 --> 00:14:51,034 - And I'm like, "Who? You want me to play what?" 324 00:14:51,132 --> 00:14:52,868 All I can just think is "White, white 325 00:14:52,968 --> 00:14:55,804 blonde hair, shaved. Not me." 326 00:14:55,904 --> 00:14:57,184 And they tell me the whole pitch. 327 00:14:57,272 --> 00:15:01,110 And I was like, "Wow, hell yeah." 328 00:15:01,209 --> 00:15:02,678 - His father is a lighthouse keeper, 329 00:15:02,777 --> 00:15:05,814 and his mother is the queen of Atlantis. 330 00:15:05,913 --> 00:15:09,152 And there's a lot of tension between these two worlds. 331 00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:11,020 - I mean, that resonated with me instantly, 332 00:15:11,119 --> 00:15:13,122 being born in Hawaii and raised in Iowa, 333 00:15:13,221 --> 00:15:15,258 being split between my parents. 334 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:17,426 - On the land, he feels like an outsider, 335 00:15:17,525 --> 00:15:20,496 but in Atlantis, he's the heir to the throne. 336 00:15:20,594 --> 00:15:22,506 - And the only one that can walk between those two 337 00:15:22,530 --> 00:15:25,101 is myself, and it's the guy that doesn't want to do it. 338 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,720 - How many times do I have to tell you? 339 00:15:26,768 --> 00:15:28,071 I don't want to be king. 340 00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:29,450 - And he's gotta learn to become 341 00:15:29,537 --> 00:15:31,474 the bridge between these two worlds 342 00:15:31,572 --> 00:15:34,443 to save the world from going to war with Atlantis. 343 00:15:36,477 --> 00:15:40,383 - Aquaman needed to get a little bit of a boost, 344 00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:43,252 and so I played it completely different. 345 00:15:43,351 --> 00:15:45,821 - Here we go. And action. 346 00:15:48,489 --> 00:15:51,460 - Bang. I hope we can get it all. 347 00:15:52,994 --> 00:15:54,197 He's a brawler. 348 00:15:54,295 --> 00:15:55,932 He's someone that just headbutts 349 00:15:56,031 --> 00:15:58,634 and gets in bar fights. 350 00:15:58,733 --> 00:16:01,270 He's blue collar. They're drinkers, you know? 351 00:16:01,369 --> 00:16:02,906 Not one to talk about their emotions. 352 00:16:03,005 --> 00:16:05,874 And I resonated with that. 353 00:16:05,969 --> 00:16:07,610 - Your mother always knew you'd be the one 354 00:16:07,708 --> 00:16:10,513 to unite our two worlds. - Just stop. 355 00:16:10,612 --> 00:16:12,548 - But also that weakness, his humanity 356 00:16:12,647 --> 00:16:14,217 is what's going to make him a king. 357 00:16:14,316 --> 00:16:16,585 - A king fights only for his nation. 358 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,289 You fight for everyone. 359 00:16:24,792 --> 00:16:27,430 - "Aquaman," directed by James Wan, 360 00:16:27,529 --> 00:16:30,799 became the highest-grossing film in DC's history, 361 00:16:30,898 --> 00:16:35,271 netting over a billion dollars at the box office worldwide. 362 00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:40,004 The victory of this once-belittled superhero 363 00:16:40,108 --> 00:16:42,078 showed hit comic book movies 364 00:16:42,176 --> 00:16:44,647 start with the source material. 365 00:16:45,913 --> 00:16:49,352 And strong stories were the priority for a new leader 366 00:16:49,451 --> 00:16:52,488 who came to DC in 1976. 367 00:16:54,989 --> 00:16:58,594 28-year-old Jenette Kahn had no comic book experience 368 00:16:58,693 --> 00:17:01,630 when Warner hired her to replace Carmine Infantino 369 00:17:01,730 --> 00:17:03,399 as publisher. 370 00:17:03,498 --> 00:17:06,030 - There was a lot of fear and loathing 371 00:17:06,134 --> 00:17:07,603 that I had been hired. 372 00:17:07,697 --> 00:17:08,938 How did she come here? 373 00:17:09,032 --> 00:17:11,307 And she's not a comic book person, 374 00:17:11,406 --> 00:17:13,209 and she's young, and she's a woman. 375 00:17:13,306 --> 00:17:16,946 - This was a company that was completely inbred and insular. 376 00:17:17,044 --> 00:17:20,516 It had never had an outsider in a management position. 377 00:17:20,615 --> 00:17:22,986 It had never had a woman in a management position. 378 00:17:23,084 --> 00:17:26,489 Except for the fact that she was smart and Jewish, 379 00:17:26,587 --> 00:17:28,124 she had pretty much nothing 380 00:17:28,223 --> 00:17:29,503 in common with all of the people 381 00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:31,360 she was inheriting as her team. 382 00:17:31,459 --> 00:17:34,463 - In fact, DC corporate hired Kahn because 383 00:17:34,557 --> 00:17:37,500 of her successful track record with children's magazines, 384 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:39,735 a clear indicator of who they thought 385 00:17:39,835 --> 00:17:41,137 their product was for. 386 00:17:41,236 --> 00:17:43,606 - Comics were considered a disposable, 387 00:17:43,704 --> 00:17:46,109 ephemeral medium, simply for kids. 388 00:17:46,206 --> 00:17:49,812 And there was a real sense of shame about working 389 00:17:49,906 --> 00:17:52,281 in the comic book industry. 390 00:17:52,380 --> 00:17:57,020 But I came to DC with a very important feeling 391 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:58,587 that comics were an art form. 392 00:17:58,686 --> 00:18:00,230 We're in the business of telling stories 393 00:18:00,254 --> 00:18:02,325 in pictures and words, 394 00:18:02,423 --> 00:18:04,227 and if we think of comics that way, 395 00:18:04,326 --> 00:18:07,496 we can tell any kind of story. 396 00:18:07,595 --> 00:18:11,367 - One untold story was long overdue. 397 00:18:11,466 --> 00:18:13,236 To script its first ever series 398 00:18:13,333 --> 00:18:16,372 featuring an African-American superhero in the title role, 399 00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:20,009 DC hired writer Tony Isabella. 400 00:18:20,107 --> 00:18:24,147 - I wanted to do, basically, my ultimate Black superhero. 401 00:18:24,245 --> 00:18:26,249 I wanted someone who would be a role model, 402 00:18:26,348 --> 00:18:28,884 someone kids could relate to. 403 00:18:28,984 --> 00:18:30,286 He was an Olympic athlete 404 00:18:30,385 --> 00:18:32,188 who gave the Black Power salute 405 00:18:32,286 --> 00:18:34,390 at the Olympics. 406 00:18:34,489 --> 00:18:38,094 Those guys had their athletic careers ruined. 407 00:18:38,192 --> 00:18:40,229 So he became a schoolteacher, 408 00:18:40,328 --> 00:18:42,765 fighting crime in the inner city. 409 00:18:42,864 --> 00:18:46,130 That was Jefferson Pierce, Black Lightning. 410 00:18:48,502 --> 00:18:53,442 - "Black Lightning" struck the stands in 1977. 411 00:18:53,541 --> 00:18:55,778 - I remember opening that bag, 412 00:18:55,877 --> 00:18:59,143 and inside was the first issue of "Black Lightning." 413 00:18:59,246 --> 00:19:04,820 And I felt something that I had never felt before. 414 00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:07,957 I think, for the first time, I felt invested. 415 00:19:08,056 --> 00:19:10,826 I could relate to almost everything 416 00:19:10,926 --> 00:19:13,562 that was on the page. 417 00:19:13,661 --> 00:19:15,531 This was a very human story, 418 00:19:15,629 --> 00:19:17,466 and it was a very immediate story. 419 00:19:17,565 --> 00:19:19,135 It was very sociopolitical. 420 00:19:19,234 --> 00:19:21,837 It was all of those things. 421 00:19:21,935 --> 00:19:25,708 - DC had caught up, but not even a new superhero 422 00:19:25,807 --> 00:19:27,944 could turn the failing comics market around. 423 00:19:29,910 --> 00:19:31,981 - The newsstands of America were drying up 424 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,382 as a place to sell magazines. 425 00:19:33,481 --> 00:19:35,985 Comic book sales were plummeting. 426 00:19:36,084 --> 00:19:37,820 - Americans were moving to the suburbs 427 00:19:37,918 --> 00:19:40,089 where chain stores refused to give floor space 428 00:19:40,188 --> 00:19:41,324 to spinner racks. 429 00:19:41,422 --> 00:19:43,059 Comics were returned unsold 430 00:19:43,158 --> 00:19:46,190 and DC's investments wasted. 431 00:19:46,289 --> 00:19:48,497 Fighting to regain market share, 432 00:19:48,597 --> 00:19:50,033 Khan doubled down. 433 00:19:50,131 --> 00:19:52,701 The company churned out new comics in a campaign 434 00:19:52,801 --> 00:19:56,105 they dubbed The DC Explosion. 435 00:19:56,203 --> 00:19:58,541 - Let's really try to co-opt as much newsstand space 436 00:19:58,639 --> 00:20:02,378 as we can by putting out as many comics as we can. 437 00:20:02,477 --> 00:20:07,211 We trumpeted quantity over quality. 438 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:09,852 - In the winter of 1978, a blizzard 439 00:20:09,950 --> 00:20:12,655 of historic proportions knocked out deliveries, 440 00:20:12,754 --> 00:20:16,859 while skyrocketing inflation drove DC's staggering sales 441 00:20:16,958 --> 00:20:18,527 into the ground. 442 00:20:18,626 --> 00:20:22,731 Overnight, the DC Explosion became the DC implosion. 443 00:20:22,830 --> 00:20:24,733 The company laid off much of its staff 444 00:20:24,832 --> 00:20:28,037 and abruptly canceled 17 comic book series, 445 00:20:28,136 --> 00:20:30,974 including "Black Lightning." 446 00:20:31,072 --> 00:20:33,776 - Nobody who was working at DC in the mid '70s 447 00:20:33,874 --> 00:20:36,845 thought the industry was going to be around very long. 448 00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:40,984 Something had to be done. Answers had to be found. 449 00:20:41,082 --> 00:20:44,921 - With DC's future hanging in the balance, 450 00:20:45,018 --> 00:20:49,092 Warner gambled big on a movie about the superhero 451 00:20:49,191 --> 00:20:51,427 who started it all. 452 00:20:51,525 --> 00:20:53,257 - Nobody thought that this would make 453 00:20:53,361 --> 00:20:54,863 a very good picture. 454 00:20:54,963 --> 00:20:56,365 Everybody, I guess, had the memory 455 00:20:56,464 --> 00:20:57,784 of the "Batman" television series, 456 00:20:57,831 --> 00:20:59,602 and they thought "It's just gonna be campy, 457 00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:02,305 and we can't have two and a half hours of camp." 458 00:21:02,402 --> 00:21:06,042 - Even with famed "Godfather" writer Mario Puzo attached, 459 00:21:06,139 --> 00:21:09,178 the movie had trouble getting off the ground. 460 00:21:09,277 --> 00:21:11,314 Untested flying technology 461 00:21:11,413 --> 00:21:13,277 and a director change midstream 462 00:21:13,381 --> 00:21:17,921 pushed the schedule behind and the budget into the red. 463 00:21:18,018 --> 00:21:20,523 When the new director Richard Donner came on, 464 00:21:20,621 --> 00:21:23,626 he began to course correct, starting with 465 00:21:23,726 --> 00:21:25,428 the tone of the script. 466 00:21:25,526 --> 00:21:27,530 - They had a different approach 467 00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:29,698 to Superman than I did. 468 00:21:29,797 --> 00:21:34,837 Their approach was kind of a parody on a parody. 469 00:21:34,936 --> 00:21:37,606 I said, "This is Superman. This is apple pie. 470 00:21:37,706 --> 00:21:39,342 This is Americana." 471 00:21:39,435 --> 00:21:41,110 It was a part of American history, 472 00:21:41,209 --> 00:21:43,712 and to me, it had its own sense of reality. 473 00:21:43,811 --> 00:21:47,816 The mission was to keep it straight. 474 00:21:47,915 --> 00:21:50,119 - With the screenplay in surgery, 475 00:21:50,218 --> 00:21:52,755 an intensive search began for the actor 476 00:21:52,853 --> 00:21:55,319 who would embody the Man of Steel. 477 00:21:55,422 --> 00:22:00,696 - Robert Redford, Paul Newman, and every major American star. 478 00:22:00,796 --> 00:22:02,731 My problem was, I would have 479 00:22:02,830 --> 00:22:04,833 a very difficult time seeing them fly. 480 00:22:04,932 --> 00:22:07,536 If you didn't believe Superman could fly, 481 00:22:07,635 --> 00:22:09,705 then you didn't believe Superman was real, 482 00:22:09,804 --> 00:22:12,909 and I felt we should go for an unknown. 483 00:22:13,007 --> 00:22:14,519 - Thank you very much for finding the time 484 00:22:14,543 --> 00:22:15,811 for this interview. 485 00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:17,646 I realize there must be many questions 486 00:22:17,745 --> 00:22:19,556 about me the world would like to know the answers to. 487 00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:22,685 - Christopher Reeve was known mainly for his work on stage 488 00:22:22,783 --> 00:22:25,421 and in soap operas, but his earnest take 489 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:29,758 on Superman aligned perfectly with Donner's grounded vision. 490 00:22:29,857 --> 00:22:31,894 - What sets Superman apart is that he's 491 00:22:31,988 --> 00:22:33,529 got the kind of maturity 492 00:22:33,628 --> 00:22:34,948 or he's got the innocence, really, 493 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:37,100 to look at the world very, very simply. 494 00:22:37,198 --> 00:22:40,069 When he says, "I'm here to fight for truth..." 495 00:22:40,168 --> 00:22:42,671 "For justice, and the American way." 496 00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:45,408 Everybody goes... 497 00:22:45,507 --> 00:22:48,311 You know? But he's not kidding. 498 00:22:48,404 --> 00:22:49,946 - The way to make this movie 499 00:22:50,044 --> 00:22:54,378 was to treat it like it was important, 500 00:22:54,482 --> 00:22:59,155 like it was an important piece of American mythology. 501 00:22:59,253 --> 00:23:01,590 - By the way, real doesn't mean grim and gritty. 502 00:23:01,689 --> 00:23:03,692 Real just means emotionally real. 503 00:23:03,791 --> 00:23:07,196 And with "Superman," it's normal people reacting 504 00:23:07,295 --> 00:23:08,932 to something extraordinary. 505 00:23:12,167 --> 00:23:13,937 - Look up there! 506 00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:17,173 - What the hell is that? 507 00:23:18,639 --> 00:23:20,643 - Easy, miss. I've got you. 508 00:23:20,741 --> 00:23:23,379 - You've got me? Who's got you? 509 00:23:28,215 --> 00:23:32,655 - "Superman" swept up $300 million in ticket sales, 510 00:23:32,753 --> 00:23:34,991 won an Academy Award for special effects, 511 00:23:35,089 --> 00:23:39,195 and launched a chain of blockbuster sequels. 512 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:43,832 - On January 26, 1979, 513 00:23:43,932 --> 00:23:45,429 I went to see "Superman," the movie. 514 00:23:45,533 --> 00:23:48,104 And I went in aimless and not knowing 515 00:23:48,202 --> 00:23:51,774 what the future is and being afraid of the future. 516 00:23:51,873 --> 00:23:54,410 When I was a kid, I didn't have any friends 517 00:23:54,509 --> 00:23:56,712 because I was changing schools all the time. 518 00:23:56,812 --> 00:23:58,814 I went into that movie theater 519 00:23:58,912 --> 00:24:02,218 just feeling like no one cared about me, no one saw me, 520 00:24:02,316 --> 00:24:05,688 no one heard me. Superman cares about everybody. 521 00:24:07,888 --> 00:24:10,826 He doesn't care whether you're rich or poor 522 00:24:10,926 --> 00:24:13,329 or where you come from. 523 00:24:13,427 --> 00:24:15,264 And I came out of that movie convinced that 524 00:24:15,363 --> 00:24:17,375 whatever I was going to do with the rest of my life, 525 00:24:17,399 --> 00:24:19,768 it was going to have to have something to do with Superman. 526 00:24:23,404 --> 00:24:25,874 - If the Chris Reeve, Dick Donner movie 527 00:24:25,974 --> 00:24:27,543 hadn't succeeded that year, 528 00:24:27,642 --> 00:24:28,978 DC might have ended up 529 00:24:29,077 --> 00:24:31,247 with a very, very minimal publishing schedule, 530 00:24:31,346 --> 00:24:35,479 and the company that you think of might not have survived. 531 00:24:36,684 --> 00:24:39,055 - Riding high on "Superman's" success, 532 00:24:39,154 --> 00:24:42,291 DC embraced a new way to reach readers. 533 00:24:48,028 --> 00:24:50,934 The comic shop started in the 1970s 534 00:24:51,031 --> 00:24:55,338 as a spot for teenage fans to buy, trade, and argue 535 00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:57,340 about old back issues. 536 00:24:57,439 --> 00:24:59,675 By the early 1980s, 537 00:24:59,774 --> 00:25:01,377 driven by demand from older readers, 538 00:25:01,475 --> 00:25:04,780 new shops were opening across the country. 539 00:25:04,878 --> 00:25:07,683 - That really became the whole new face 540 00:25:07,782 --> 00:25:09,285 of comic book distribution. 541 00:25:09,383 --> 00:25:12,388 It's really what saved comics from oblivion. 542 00:25:12,486 --> 00:25:14,290 - Comics were hot. 543 00:25:14,389 --> 00:25:16,725 But for many, DC's tangled continuity 544 00:25:16,825 --> 00:25:19,062 was a barrier to entry. 545 00:25:19,161 --> 00:25:22,899 - The problem was a lot of the Marvel fans 546 00:25:22,997 --> 00:25:24,700 did not understand what DC was about 547 00:25:24,793 --> 00:25:26,793 because they didn't understand why they had so many 548 00:25:26,867 --> 00:25:29,505 multiple characters that were all the same. 549 00:25:29,603 --> 00:25:31,975 We were dealing with things like the multiverse. 550 00:25:32,074 --> 00:25:33,876 Words that are very common today, 551 00:25:33,976 --> 00:25:36,612 but back then were not. 552 00:25:36,705 --> 00:25:40,984 And it suddenly hits me, we need to change this. 553 00:25:41,083 --> 00:25:46,022 Let's begin the universe fresh today. 554 00:25:47,388 --> 00:25:48,891 It had to be revolutionary. 555 00:25:48,989 --> 00:25:51,594 It had to be something that everyone would go, 556 00:25:51,693 --> 00:25:53,930 "Oh, my God, they're serious? 557 00:25:54,028 --> 00:25:57,533 They're going to do that? That's impossible." 558 00:25:57,632 --> 00:26:01,604 - In the most cataclysmic crossover of DC's history, 559 00:26:01,703 --> 00:26:04,207 Marv Wolfman and artist George Perez 560 00:26:04,306 --> 00:26:06,009 ended the DC multiverse 561 00:26:06,107 --> 00:26:08,744 with a 12-issue standalone event 562 00:26:08,842 --> 00:26:10,914 that killed off characters and worlds 563 00:26:11,012 --> 00:26:13,716 until a single Earth was left. 564 00:26:13,815 --> 00:26:15,718 - They took the unprecedented step 565 00:26:15,811 --> 00:26:19,989 of deciding we're gonna wipe all of the baggage away. 566 00:26:20,088 --> 00:26:23,226 We're gonna restart and unify them 567 00:26:23,325 --> 00:26:27,063 into a DC Universe for the first time. 568 00:26:27,162 --> 00:26:29,032 - "Crisis on Infinite Earths" happened, 569 00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:31,300 and the Flash died at the end of it. 570 00:26:34,268 --> 00:26:38,107 And that was the first time I ever cried in a comic book. 571 00:26:38,206 --> 00:26:41,044 And I remember realizing at that time, 572 00:26:41,143 --> 00:26:42,979 like, I'm so connected to this character. 573 00:26:43,077 --> 00:26:45,256 And now I have to go back and learn everything about them. 574 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,884 And in a way, his end was my beginning 575 00:26:48,977 --> 00:26:51,420 - Wolfman's decision to burn down the multiverse 576 00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:53,722 gave other creators a clean slate 577 00:26:53,821 --> 00:26:55,858 to breathe new life and new depth 578 00:26:55,957 --> 00:26:59,028 into classic DC characters. 579 00:26:59,126 --> 00:27:01,497 - So coming out of "Crisis on Infinite Earths," 580 00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:03,066 we have a brand new Earth. 581 00:27:03,164 --> 00:27:04,901 Well, let's reintroduce the characters 582 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,970 as if they had not existed before. 583 00:27:07,068 --> 00:27:10,106 So DC brought John Byrne over from Marvel. 584 00:27:10,203 --> 00:27:12,048 He was the biggest talent in comics at the time. 585 00:27:12,072 --> 00:27:15,611 Let's give him "Superman." Do it completely from scratch. 586 00:27:15,704 --> 00:27:17,780 And think about what is your life 587 00:27:17,879 --> 00:27:20,116 really like if those are your abilities, 588 00:27:20,215 --> 00:27:21,817 if those have your powers, 589 00:27:21,915 --> 00:27:23,315 if that's how you perceive the world 590 00:27:23,379 --> 00:27:26,555 with your superpowers. 591 00:27:26,655 --> 00:27:28,024 Same with "Wonder Woman," 592 00:27:28,123 --> 00:27:29,792 let's give her to George Perez. 593 00:27:29,891 --> 00:27:31,068 - George Perez's "Wonder Woman" 594 00:27:31,092 --> 00:27:32,561 was my everything. 595 00:27:32,660 --> 00:27:34,763 His run on "Wonder Woman" is ultimately what drove me 596 00:27:34,863 --> 00:27:36,632 to apply to art school. 597 00:27:36,731 --> 00:27:39,868 To this day, I can't get over the amount of information 598 00:27:39,968 --> 00:27:41,570 he put on a page. 599 00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:43,072 I'd never seen comic pages 600 00:27:43,171 --> 00:27:46,109 that were so dense with panels. 601 00:27:46,206 --> 00:27:48,611 But what really struck me about the George Perez stuff 602 00:27:48,711 --> 00:27:50,713 is he was a really good actor. 603 00:27:50,812 --> 00:27:54,483 By that I mean, his characters who are different sizes 604 00:27:54,582 --> 00:27:57,786 and shapes, look differently, and they stood 605 00:27:57,885 --> 00:27:59,755 and they dressed and they acted 606 00:27:59,854 --> 00:28:01,890 and they behaved and they fought in ways 607 00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:04,093 that were unique to them. 608 00:28:04,192 --> 00:28:06,029 And to me, that was the magic of George Perez. 609 00:28:06,128 --> 00:28:07,763 It was a way of thinking. 610 00:28:07,862 --> 00:28:10,694 It was a sensibility where each character was unique. 611 00:28:10,798 --> 00:28:14,737 And he was gonna bring out that uniqueness with the art. 612 00:28:16,671 --> 00:28:18,174 - One of the most important decisions 613 00:28:18,273 --> 00:28:21,705 I think I made at DC was to commission 614 00:28:21,809 --> 00:28:26,015 the people who turned comics into a sophisticated art form, 615 00:28:26,113 --> 00:28:30,053 and that began with bringing Frank Miller over to DC. 616 00:28:31,986 --> 00:28:33,626 - Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" 617 00:28:33,721 --> 00:28:36,492 is a sharply modern take on the Batman legend, 618 00:28:36,591 --> 00:28:39,495 set against the harsh reality of the Reagan regime 619 00:28:39,594 --> 00:28:42,431 and filled with the fury of the times. 620 00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:45,434 - Most of the basic assumptions of comics, 621 00:28:45,533 --> 00:28:47,536 up until the past two years, were all 622 00:28:47,635 --> 00:28:49,305 pretty much set in the '40s. 623 00:28:49,404 --> 00:28:51,674 And everything had to happen in a very benevolent world 624 00:28:51,767 --> 00:28:53,176 where you can always trust the cops, 625 00:28:53,274 --> 00:28:54,986 you can always trust your elected officials, 626 00:28:55,010 --> 00:28:56,512 you can always trust your parents. 627 00:28:56,611 --> 00:28:58,714 It's unfortunate that for so many years, 628 00:28:58,813 --> 00:29:00,917 the basic idea of superheroes 629 00:29:01,015 --> 00:29:04,954 was made impossible by putting it in a world 630 00:29:05,053 --> 00:29:08,024 where it didn't need any. 631 00:29:08,122 --> 00:29:11,127 - Miller reinvents Batman as a middle-aged loner, 632 00:29:11,226 --> 00:29:14,297 angry at corrupt officials and willing to use 633 00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:17,033 any means necessary to expose them. 634 00:29:17,131 --> 00:29:18,942 - I felt that there was no way to really do Batman 635 00:29:18,966 --> 00:29:20,911 without addressing the fact that, at least at the start 636 00:29:20,935 --> 00:29:22,405 of the story, he's an anachronism. 637 00:29:22,503 --> 00:29:24,007 There's something very antiquated 638 00:29:24,106 --> 00:29:25,441 about the whole notion, 639 00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:27,176 and the effort of "Dark Knight" 640 00:29:27,275 --> 00:29:30,679 was to revive it, to make the idea work 641 00:29:30,779 --> 00:29:32,615 in a modern context. 642 00:29:32,713 --> 00:29:35,718 - When Batman's war on gangs becomes an embarrassment 643 00:29:35,817 --> 00:29:37,886 to Washington, he finds himself 644 00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:41,524 up against an unlikely foe, Superman, 645 00:29:41,624 --> 00:29:43,059 drawn as an enforcer 646 00:29:43,158 --> 00:29:45,328 for the Reagan government police state. 647 00:29:45,426 --> 00:29:48,264 - It's a book that defied all the conventions 648 00:29:48,362 --> 00:29:50,166 of what we had done previously. 649 00:29:50,265 --> 00:29:54,770 It was political, social commentary driven. 650 00:29:54,863 --> 00:29:56,605 It was further off any model sheet 651 00:29:56,704 --> 00:30:00,309 for what Batman had been, the look of the character. 652 00:30:00,408 --> 00:30:03,546 Each individual decision there was pretty courageous. 653 00:30:03,644 --> 00:30:05,548 And there's no question, Jenette and I 654 00:30:05,646 --> 00:30:08,017 spent lots of years debating back and forth 655 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:09,752 on individual choices, 656 00:30:09,851 --> 00:30:14,657 I would have been more careful, and she was more daring. 657 00:30:14,755 --> 00:30:17,160 - It was the generation of creators coming in 658 00:30:17,259 --> 00:30:18,894 who had grown up reading comic books, 659 00:30:18,993 --> 00:30:22,165 and now they were able to do their expressions of it. 660 00:30:22,263 --> 00:30:24,000 These are kind of political works 661 00:30:24,099 --> 00:30:26,735 that had a point of view that were not in step 662 00:30:26,829 --> 00:30:29,072 with what was going on at the time. 663 00:30:29,170 --> 00:30:31,941 - "Watchmen" was a disruptive look 664 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,642 at superheroes themselves 665 00:30:33,741 --> 00:30:37,246 by a young English writer named Alan Moore. 666 00:30:37,345 --> 00:30:40,249 - What we want to do is to actually examine 667 00:30:40,348 --> 00:30:43,019 the implications of the superhero, 668 00:30:43,118 --> 00:30:45,888 if these absurd characters were real, 669 00:30:45,988 --> 00:30:47,890 just what they'd do to the world. 670 00:30:47,989 --> 00:30:51,727 If you've got a character of Superman's level and power 671 00:30:51,827 --> 00:30:53,696 working for the Americans, 672 00:30:53,794 --> 00:30:57,133 what would American foreign policy be like? 673 00:30:57,232 --> 00:30:58,832 Perhaps be a little bit more adventurous, 674 00:30:58,899 --> 00:31:00,864 and I should imagine that Russian foreign policy 675 00:31:00,969 --> 00:31:02,866 would be a little less adventurous. 676 00:31:05,272 --> 00:31:07,610 - Moore sets the story in an alternate 1985, 677 00:31:07,709 --> 00:31:10,413 under the looming threat of nuclear war. 678 00:31:10,511 --> 00:31:13,182 The only super being and America's protector, 679 00:31:13,281 --> 00:31:15,518 Dr. Manhattan, has abandoned Earth 680 00:31:15,617 --> 00:31:17,987 to a handful of costumed vigilantes, 681 00:31:18,086 --> 00:31:20,323 one of whom annihilates the city 682 00:31:20,421 --> 00:31:24,027 of New York in the name of uniting the world. 683 00:31:24,126 --> 00:31:26,162 - "Watchmen" is not written by someone 684 00:31:26,260 --> 00:31:28,397 who loves superhero comics. 685 00:31:28,496 --> 00:31:30,074 Watchmen is written by someone who knows superhero comics 686 00:31:30,098 --> 00:31:32,868 deeply and respects them, 687 00:31:32,967 --> 00:31:35,146 but it's from someone who can look at them at a distance 688 00:31:35,170 --> 00:31:37,140 and say here are the great noble themes 689 00:31:37,239 --> 00:31:39,242 that you've actually been looking at. 690 00:31:39,341 --> 00:31:41,978 - To me, Alan Moore's "Watchmen" is up there 691 00:31:42,077 --> 00:31:44,280 with any other work of literature. 692 00:31:44,379 --> 00:31:48,251 Like, I love it. I've read it 100 times. 693 00:31:48,349 --> 00:31:50,686 The deconstruction of the superhero 694 00:31:50,785 --> 00:31:52,621 is something that was very influenced 695 00:31:52,721 --> 00:31:54,257 by what he did. 696 00:31:55,656 --> 00:31:59,395 - In 2005, Time Magazine ranked "Watchmen" 697 00:31:59,494 --> 00:32:02,531 one of the best 100 novels of the 20th century. 698 00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:05,668 It has never been out of print. 699 00:32:05,766 --> 00:32:09,605 Moore's book would ignite a literary explosion at DC 700 00:32:09,704 --> 00:32:12,808 under the leadership of Karen Berger. 701 00:32:12,907 --> 00:32:17,380 - I was sort of carving a path a little bit under the radar. 702 00:32:17,479 --> 00:32:20,283 I had started scouting out writers 703 00:32:20,382 --> 00:32:22,218 in England, particularly. 704 00:32:22,317 --> 00:32:23,895 - The British comic industry was a step ahead 705 00:32:23,919 --> 00:32:24,949 of us in mature comics. 706 00:32:25,053 --> 00:32:26,655 Karen saw that and was like, 707 00:32:26,754 --> 00:32:28,632 "Why don't we just turn that into an entire brand?" 708 00:32:28,656 --> 00:32:30,559 And so it was a British invasion. 709 00:32:30,658 --> 00:32:33,662 She brought in that generation of British writers, 710 00:32:33,757 --> 00:32:35,960 and they created adult comics. 711 00:32:36,064 --> 00:32:38,001 - By the time DC started looking, 712 00:32:38,094 --> 00:32:39,414 there was a whole generation of us 713 00:32:39,501 --> 00:32:41,170 who were just ready to go 714 00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:43,406 and had been reading comics all our lives. 715 00:32:43,504 --> 00:32:45,741 To have the hand of Superman reach down from the clouds 716 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,411 and to know that DC Comics was on the phone, 717 00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:50,579 it just felt like winning a billion dollars. 718 00:32:50,678 --> 00:32:52,748 - One of the writers Berger met 719 00:32:52,848 --> 00:32:54,517 in her search for new talent 720 00:32:54,615 --> 00:32:58,487 was a persistent young man by the name of Neil Gaiman. 721 00:32:58,586 --> 00:33:01,657 Gaiman pitched a story based on an obscure character 722 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:05,194 from the company's archives, the Sandman, 723 00:33:05,293 --> 00:33:08,597 ruler of the realm of dreams. 724 00:33:08,696 --> 00:33:10,566 - OK, you've got this character 725 00:33:10,664 --> 00:33:12,668 who was gonna be Lord of Dreams. 726 00:33:12,767 --> 00:33:14,437 Then why haven't we ever seen him 727 00:33:14,535 --> 00:33:16,205 all through the DC Universe? 728 00:33:16,304 --> 00:33:17,916 Because at that point, everything you were doing 729 00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:19,308 was in the DC universe. 730 00:33:19,407 --> 00:33:21,017 So I thought, "Well, we'd never seen him." 731 00:33:21,041 --> 00:33:24,447 I thought, "Well, maybe he's been locked up somewhere." 732 00:33:24,546 --> 00:33:28,184 And suddenly I had the shape of a beginning of something. 733 00:33:28,283 --> 00:33:30,086 I had the idea of this sort of naked man 734 00:33:30,185 --> 00:33:32,655 in a glass box just prepared to wait 735 00:33:32,753 --> 00:33:35,224 until all the people who kept him prisoner 736 00:33:35,323 --> 00:33:37,826 were long dead and forgotten. 737 00:33:40,794 --> 00:33:43,766 And of course, I started "Sandman" in a state 738 00:33:43,865 --> 00:33:46,502 of absolute delirious terror 739 00:33:46,601 --> 00:33:51,607 because I'd never had to do was write one story a month. 740 00:33:51,706 --> 00:33:54,010 The reason why the first storyline, 741 00:33:54,107 --> 00:33:56,913 "Preludes and Nocturnes," was eight issues long 742 00:33:57,011 --> 00:34:00,917 was I was convinced I would get the phone call from Karen 743 00:34:01,015 --> 00:34:02,559 saying, you know, "It's really not selling, 744 00:34:02,583 --> 00:34:04,453 we're gonna stop it at number 12." 745 00:34:04,552 --> 00:34:06,555 Only when we got to number eight, 746 00:34:06,654 --> 00:34:09,292 we were selling more than anything comparable 747 00:34:09,391 --> 00:34:12,428 had ever sold, and suddenly, I thought, 748 00:34:12,527 --> 00:34:16,099 "OK, I can actually let myself now believe, 749 00:34:16,198 --> 00:34:19,168 "Let myself dream that I'm gonna 750 00:34:19,267 --> 00:34:21,570 get to the end of the story." 751 00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:25,541 - Finally free, the Sandman takes revenge on his captors 752 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,979 and discovers he must answer for his own sins too. 753 00:34:30,073 --> 00:34:31,680 - There was nothing like "Sandman" 754 00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:33,077 when "Sandman" came out. 755 00:34:33,181 --> 00:34:37,286 It was emotional, but fantastic. 756 00:34:37,385 --> 00:34:39,355 Cerebral, but dark. 757 00:34:39,454 --> 00:34:41,357 It drew female readers 758 00:34:41,456 --> 00:34:43,826 who didn't realize that there were comics 759 00:34:43,925 --> 00:34:45,661 that they would enjoy. 760 00:34:45,759 --> 00:34:47,463 - Neal was playing against type 761 00:34:47,561 --> 00:34:48,998 for a character named Death 762 00:34:49,096 --> 00:34:51,334 and making her a young, attractive woman, 763 00:34:51,432 --> 00:34:55,138 a Goth, which was also very much in sync 764 00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:57,240 with the times. 765 00:34:57,338 --> 00:34:58,578 - When you were in high school, 766 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,076 you could give a copy of "Sandman" 767 00:35:00,175 --> 00:35:01,375 and look cool still, you know? 768 00:35:01,409 --> 00:35:02,811 You could still wear your jacket 769 00:35:02,910 --> 00:35:04,654 and smoke your cigarettes and read "Sandman." 770 00:35:04,678 --> 00:35:06,950 Like, that was legitimate. Comics were cool again. 771 00:35:07,047 --> 00:35:09,185 They were rebellious. They were dangerous. 772 00:35:09,284 --> 00:35:10,886 They weren't childlike. 773 00:35:10,985 --> 00:35:13,522 They were a sign that you were on the edge of art, 774 00:35:13,621 --> 00:35:17,293 rather than in the middle of it. 775 00:35:17,392 --> 00:35:19,495 - The series ran for 75 issues 776 00:35:19,594 --> 00:35:22,265 and sold over 7 million copies, 777 00:35:22,363 --> 00:35:24,367 but it was only one of a growing list 778 00:35:24,466 --> 00:35:26,502 of titles edited by Karen Berger 779 00:35:26,601 --> 00:35:30,506 that veered further off page of traditional comics. 780 00:35:30,605 --> 00:35:34,610 - My goal was to really do stories 781 00:35:34,708 --> 00:35:39,182 that just kind of shook things up, 782 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,884 that broke with the status quo, 783 00:35:41,983 --> 00:35:45,088 that challenged people's perceptions 784 00:35:45,186 --> 00:35:48,457 of what a comic story could be. 785 00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:50,659 - One of the things that Karen brought to comics 786 00:35:50,758 --> 00:35:53,696 was the fact that she wasn't a hardcore comic book fan. 787 00:35:53,794 --> 00:35:57,366 She had her unique perspective on story 788 00:35:57,465 --> 00:36:00,369 that wasn't bound by anybody's tradition. 789 00:36:00,468 --> 00:36:02,906 - And Jenette was a real role model for me. 790 00:36:03,004 --> 00:36:05,608 She set the tone and set the stage 791 00:36:05,707 --> 00:36:09,645 and was fearless and brave, in terms of the risk taking. 792 00:36:09,744 --> 00:36:13,449 - And it was at that moment I said, "You should really 793 00:36:13,547 --> 00:36:15,784 be editor of your own line." 794 00:36:15,883 --> 00:36:18,387 - And I'm like, in a heartbeat, I said yes. 795 00:36:18,486 --> 00:36:20,924 - And that's when Vertigo was born. 796 00:36:22,890 --> 00:36:27,896 - I liked the feeling that you get from that word. 797 00:36:27,996 --> 00:36:29,899 You're uncomfortable. 798 00:36:29,997 --> 00:36:32,468 It's associated with fear of heights. 799 00:36:32,567 --> 00:36:34,938 And the whole thing about Vertigo 800 00:36:35,036 --> 00:36:39,108 is overcoming those fears, going into those dark places, 801 00:36:39,207 --> 00:36:42,711 and taking chances and taking creative risks. 802 00:36:42,810 --> 00:36:46,082 - There was a feeling in the air 803 00:36:46,181 --> 00:36:48,084 that it was a special place 804 00:36:48,183 --> 00:36:50,486 where you got to stretch yourself creatively 805 00:36:50,585 --> 00:36:52,956 and push boundaries. 806 00:36:53,055 --> 00:36:55,391 - It was a great way of working. 807 00:36:55,490 --> 00:36:57,526 I think just giving people the opportunity 808 00:36:57,626 --> 00:36:59,362 to tell that one story. 809 00:36:59,461 --> 00:37:01,039 What is the thing you've always... what's the thing 810 00:37:01,063 --> 00:37:02,665 that's most expressive of you? 811 00:37:02,764 --> 00:37:05,902 - "The Invisibles" changed history in comics. 812 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,804 I mean, it created the first drag queen superhero. 813 00:37:08,904 --> 00:37:10,506 To have this sort of character, 814 00:37:10,605 --> 00:37:14,277 this kind of visibility in the mid '90s, 815 00:37:14,375 --> 00:37:17,713 that's really extraordinary. 816 00:37:17,812 --> 00:37:19,682 - I think if there's any thread 817 00:37:19,781 --> 00:37:22,385 that fits through what a Vertigo title is, 818 00:37:22,483 --> 00:37:24,887 what a Vertigo comic is, 819 00:37:24,986 --> 00:37:28,657 they all deal with... 820 00:37:28,757 --> 00:37:30,994 humanity 821 00:37:31,092 --> 00:37:33,396 in all its facets. 822 00:37:33,494 --> 00:37:36,199 And genre is really used as a backdrop 823 00:37:36,298 --> 00:37:39,768 to tell stories about the uncomfortable side 824 00:37:39,867 --> 00:37:43,639 of life, disturbing parts of life, 825 00:37:43,739 --> 00:37:47,376 about people on the fringes. 826 00:37:47,475 --> 00:37:51,547 You know, stories about all of us. 827 00:37:51,646 --> 00:37:53,649 - You really have to hand it to Karen. 828 00:37:53,747 --> 00:37:56,619 It's her editorial vision for comics 829 00:37:56,717 --> 00:38:01,057 to be taken as seriously as a storytelling medium 830 00:38:01,156 --> 00:38:03,192 as any other. 831 00:38:03,291 --> 00:38:07,096 That comics can do anything and have to be allowed 832 00:38:07,195 --> 00:38:09,865 to do anything, to go into whatever territory 833 00:38:09,964 --> 00:38:13,069 any writer or artist deems appropriate. 834 00:38:13,168 --> 00:38:15,604 - Vertigo's boundary-breaking stories 835 00:38:15,703 --> 00:38:18,807 claim new cultural cachet and market potential 836 00:38:18,907 --> 00:38:21,810 and needed a format to match. 837 00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:23,679 - We said to each other, "Why should we 838 00:38:23,778 --> 00:38:26,749 "just let a comic book come out and then disappear? 839 00:38:26,847 --> 00:38:28,851 "How can comic books stay on a shelf? 840 00:38:28,949 --> 00:38:31,287 How can comic books actually even go on a shelf?" 841 00:38:31,385 --> 00:38:33,822 - To get comics into bookstores, 842 00:38:33,921 --> 00:38:36,492 the company seized on a brand new genre... 843 00:38:36,591 --> 00:38:38,027 The graphic novel. 844 00:38:38,125 --> 00:38:41,064 With longer stories published in one volume, 845 00:38:41,162 --> 00:38:45,201 it was a move that would pay dividends for years to come. 846 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:48,171 - Between the trade paperbacks and the graphic novels, 847 00:38:48,269 --> 00:38:51,474 we turned publishing around to be a profit center. 848 00:38:51,573 --> 00:38:53,910 We made comics permanent. 849 00:38:57,745 --> 00:39:01,017 - By the mid '90s, comic books had grown up, 850 00:39:01,114 --> 00:39:04,921 but comic book movies were stalled in the past. 851 00:39:05,018 --> 00:39:07,957 One young fan made it his personal mission 852 00:39:08,056 --> 00:39:10,093 to change that. 853 00:39:10,192 --> 00:39:14,397 - Now, if I tell you today that as a kid in my 20s, 854 00:39:14,495 --> 00:39:16,699 I waltzed in, and I bought the rights 855 00:39:16,798 --> 00:39:19,135 to Batman from DC Comics, you're gonna go, 856 00:39:19,234 --> 00:39:20,937 "Well, that's impossible." 857 00:39:21,034 --> 00:39:24,840 And they're right. Today, could never happen. 858 00:39:24,939 --> 00:39:29,212 But at that moment in time, nobody else understood 859 00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:31,547 the value of these characters. 860 00:39:31,646 --> 00:39:35,884 - In 1979, Uslan had teamed up with experienced producer 861 00:39:35,983 --> 00:39:38,487 Ben Melniker and bought the film rights 862 00:39:38,586 --> 00:39:40,990 to the caped crusader from DC. 863 00:39:41,088 --> 00:39:44,760 It would take nearly a decade for cameras to roll. 864 00:39:44,858 --> 00:39:48,631 - I was turned down by every single studio in Hollywood. 865 00:39:48,729 --> 00:39:50,129 They said, "You're out of your mind. 866 00:39:50,165 --> 00:39:52,396 "You can't do serious comic book movies. 867 00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:54,670 You can't do dark superheroes." 868 00:39:54,769 --> 00:39:56,505 - But then Frank Miller comes along and does 869 00:39:56,604 --> 00:39:58,174 "The Dark Knight Returns." 870 00:39:58,273 --> 00:40:02,511 And that reset Batman in people's imaginations 871 00:40:02,610 --> 00:40:06,682 from Adam West to the modern, dark, complex 872 00:40:06,781 --> 00:40:09,285 avenger that we know this day. 873 00:40:09,378 --> 00:40:12,488 - The whole key was Tim Burton. 874 00:40:12,587 --> 00:40:15,724 - Director Tim Burton was known for off-kilter hits 875 00:40:15,823 --> 00:40:17,460 like "Pee-wee's Big Adventure," 876 00:40:17,558 --> 00:40:19,195 not action movies, 877 00:40:19,293 --> 00:40:22,999 but his empathetic take on Batman sold Uslan. 878 00:40:23,098 --> 00:40:26,402 - It was Tim who said, "If we're gonna make 879 00:40:26,501 --> 00:40:27,937 "a serious Batman movie, 880 00:40:28,036 --> 00:40:29,605 this movie cannot be about Batman." 881 00:40:29,703 --> 00:40:32,942 This movie must be about Bruce Wayne. 882 00:40:33,041 --> 00:40:35,811 - We were interested in not exploring, 883 00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:39,548 you know, the cliched aspects of a comic book, 884 00:40:39,647 --> 00:40:41,550 but trying to get a little bit more out of it. 885 00:40:41,649 --> 00:40:43,886 What we were interested in doing 886 00:40:43,984 --> 00:40:46,289 was showing a hero who has problems. 887 00:40:46,387 --> 00:40:48,124 It does make it more human. 888 00:40:48,223 --> 00:40:49,959 - But when Burton cast Michael Keaton 889 00:40:50,057 --> 00:40:54,697 in the title role, Uslan's confidence wobbled. 890 00:40:54,796 --> 00:40:57,833 - I said "That's great." That's a great joke. 891 00:40:57,932 --> 00:41:00,937 I said I could see the poster now, "Mr. Mom" is "Batman." 892 00:41:01,036 --> 00:41:04,340 There's a dark and serious Batman. 893 00:41:04,438 --> 00:41:07,176 And Tim had the explanation. 894 00:41:07,275 --> 00:41:10,213 I've worked with Michael Keaton on Beetlejuice. 895 00:41:10,311 --> 00:41:13,282 We can create a portrayal of Bruce Wayne 896 00:41:13,381 --> 00:41:16,953 so driven, so obsessed to the point of being psychotic... 897 00:41:17,052 --> 00:41:20,189 - Now what do you think? You think I'm qualified? 898 00:41:20,288 --> 00:41:24,260 - That audiences will go, "Yes, that guy would work. 899 00:41:24,359 --> 00:41:25,528 That guy would do that." 900 00:41:25,627 --> 00:41:28,697 - 67, take one. - Action. 901 00:41:30,532 --> 00:41:33,903 - Burton and his design team conjured a brooding, 902 00:41:34,001 --> 00:41:37,273 broken Gotham, swirling with menace. 903 00:41:37,372 --> 00:41:41,177 - "Batman" '89 was really a master class 904 00:41:41,276 --> 00:41:43,712 from mood to darkness. 905 00:41:43,811 --> 00:41:45,491 The first time you see Batman in that film, 906 00:41:45,547 --> 00:41:47,183 what are you seeing? 907 00:41:47,282 --> 00:41:50,119 You're seeing the silhouette of a bat come down 908 00:41:50,218 --> 00:41:52,288 on two guys that just robbed someone. 909 00:41:52,387 --> 00:41:55,258 And those two should be very, very fearful. 910 00:41:59,861 --> 00:42:03,132 - What are you? - I'm Batman. 911 00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:06,669 - They took Batman to his dark comic book roots. 912 00:42:06,768 --> 00:42:08,938 The story of a very damaged man. 913 00:42:09,036 --> 00:42:10,775 If you're going to dress up as a bat at night 914 00:42:10,799 --> 00:42:13,910 and put fear into the hearts of criminals, 915 00:42:14,007 --> 00:42:18,247 what type of person is that? What makes him be that way? 916 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,284 - Bruce Wayne, his tendency to be 917 00:42:21,382 --> 00:42:22,952 a rather internal guy 918 00:42:23,051 --> 00:42:25,121 who just kind of flips occasionally, 919 00:42:25,219 --> 00:42:27,197 you know, the lid kind of comes off every once in a while. 920 00:42:27,221 --> 00:42:29,492 - Now you want to get nuts? Come on! 921 00:42:29,591 --> 00:42:30,759 Let's get nuts. 922 00:42:30,858 --> 00:42:32,556 Until he's Batman, in which case, 923 00:42:32,660 --> 00:42:34,530 it weirdly becomes controlled. 924 00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:36,465 - Excuse me. 925 00:42:36,564 --> 00:42:39,802 Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight? 926 00:42:41,201 --> 00:42:44,773 - It was an incredible, incredible moment in time. 927 00:42:44,872 --> 00:42:48,377 For a comic book fan who had grown up ridiculed, 928 00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:51,747 seeing this being elevated 929 00:42:51,847 --> 00:42:55,084 to global blockbuster status. 930 00:42:55,182 --> 00:42:57,753 - The crowd started gathering over the weekend 931 00:42:57,852 --> 00:42:59,422 in anticipation of a movie premiere 932 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,825 so big it had to be held in two theaters. 933 00:43:02,924 --> 00:43:04,928 - And I said, "I think what I've learned here 934 00:43:05,025 --> 00:43:09,966 "is if you don't believe them when they tell you how bad 935 00:43:10,064 --> 00:43:12,368 "you are, just believe in yourself and your work, 936 00:43:12,468 --> 00:43:14,070 you'll do great." 937 00:43:14,168 --> 00:43:16,940 - I think Michael Keaton far surpassed what you expect. 938 00:43:17,038 --> 00:43:18,341 He's gonna be the new Batman, 939 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,209 the new wave Batman of the '90s. 940 00:43:20,308 --> 00:43:23,746 - "Batman" in 1989 is not only just 941 00:43:23,844 --> 00:43:25,781 the most successful movie of that year, 942 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,084 but that bat symbol is everywhere. 943 00:43:28,183 --> 00:43:31,020 You can't buy blank T-shirts to print on 944 00:43:31,118 --> 00:43:33,422 because every black blank T-shirt has already 945 00:43:33,521 --> 00:43:35,124 been committed somewhere. 946 00:43:35,222 --> 00:43:38,327 - Fans of Philadelphia can line up for Batman dos. 947 00:43:38,426 --> 00:43:40,896 - A whole catalog of Batman memorabilia. 948 00:43:40,995 --> 00:43:44,100 In fact, there is even a 1-800-BATMAN number in here 949 00:43:44,198 --> 00:43:46,302 to get your merchandise to you faster. 950 00:43:46,401 --> 00:43:48,304 - The adventures of the caped crusader 951 00:43:48,402 --> 00:43:51,807 are fueling a $400 million industry that's growing 952 00:43:51,907 --> 00:43:53,776 by 25% each year. 953 00:43:55,777 --> 00:43:59,148 - Bat mania catapulted comics into the new decade, 954 00:43:59,247 --> 00:44:02,518 where it found a whole new kind of fan. 955 00:44:02,617 --> 00:44:06,155 - '90s was a very bloated time in comic book history, 956 00:44:06,254 --> 00:44:09,125 a period of interest solely from collectors. 957 00:44:09,223 --> 00:44:11,260 And how much is this comic book going to be worth? 958 00:44:11,359 --> 00:44:13,396 Do you have the issue with the special bag 959 00:44:13,495 --> 00:44:15,398 and the card inside? 960 00:44:15,497 --> 00:44:18,334 - And at the 27th annual international comic convention 961 00:44:18,433 --> 00:44:23,306 in San Diego, a comic book sold for $180,000. 962 00:44:23,405 --> 00:44:25,774 - It doesn't really matter about the comic. 963 00:44:25,873 --> 00:44:27,944 It matters of how much money it costs 964 00:44:28,043 --> 00:44:30,046 and how much money it's worth. 965 00:44:30,144 --> 00:44:33,449 - They buy them for investment. The fun is out of it. 966 00:44:33,548 --> 00:44:35,051 - Feeding the frenzy, 967 00:44:35,149 --> 00:44:37,120 publishers hype their top artists 968 00:44:37,218 --> 00:44:39,155 and pumped out collectible one-offs. 969 00:44:39,254 --> 00:44:42,158 - Oh, I have such a soft spot for '90s comics. 970 00:44:42,257 --> 00:44:44,293 It seemed really exciting at the time 971 00:44:44,392 --> 00:44:46,963 because the artists seemed to be the rock star. 972 00:44:47,061 --> 00:44:48,172 A lot of them, I never even read, 973 00:44:48,196 --> 00:44:49,966 I just pored over the artwork. 974 00:44:50,058 --> 00:44:53,069 - Jim Lee was one of Marvel's superstar artists. 975 00:44:53,167 --> 00:44:56,839 His "X-Men" number one sold 8 million copies, 976 00:44:56,939 --> 00:44:58,474 a Guinness World Record. 977 00:44:58,573 --> 00:45:01,144 - Because the artists were so hot, some of the artists 978 00:45:01,243 --> 00:45:02,811 felt like we don't need writers. 979 00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:05,114 Why are we sharing our profits with writers 980 00:45:05,212 --> 00:45:08,551 when we could come up with these same kind of stories? 981 00:45:08,649 --> 00:45:12,621 - Early in 1992, Lee and Marvel's other top artists 982 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:17,160 quit and joined forces to form Image Comics. 983 00:45:17,257 --> 00:45:20,463 - We were six, seven artists, depending on which version 984 00:45:20,562 --> 00:45:23,933 you go with, a bunch of headstrong kids, 985 00:45:24,032 --> 00:45:26,402 really, in our mid-twenties. 986 00:45:26,501 --> 00:45:28,245 And we were just going around telling these corporations, 987 00:45:28,269 --> 00:45:30,229 "Screw you guys, we're not going to work for you." 988 00:45:30,305 --> 00:45:32,341 - In its first four months of operation, 989 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,778 the upstart company pushed DC into third place 990 00:45:35,878 --> 00:45:37,947 for the first time. 991 00:45:38,046 --> 00:45:39,983 With its reputation on the line, 992 00:45:40,082 --> 00:45:42,251 America's oldest comics outfit needed 993 00:45:42,350 --> 00:45:44,748 to grab back the spotlight. 994 00:45:44,852 --> 00:45:47,924 - We had an emergency meeting where we got everybody in. 995 00:45:48,023 --> 00:45:49,993 All the writers, all the artists 996 00:45:50,091 --> 00:45:52,495 on four titles of Superman, 997 00:45:52,593 --> 00:45:54,863 all working towards a common goal. 998 00:45:54,963 --> 00:45:56,966 It's not about you. 999 00:45:57,064 --> 00:45:58,867 It's about Superman and what we think 1000 00:45:58,967 --> 00:46:00,636 is best for Superman. 1001 00:46:00,734 --> 00:46:04,007 Every meeting that we ever had when we would get stuck, 1002 00:46:04,105 --> 00:46:08,511 Jerry Ordway would holler out, "Let's just kill him." 1003 00:46:08,609 --> 00:46:10,980 Well, he said it that day. 1004 00:46:11,079 --> 00:46:15,884 And I said, "OK, wise guys, if we kill him, 1005 00:46:15,984 --> 00:46:17,686 what happens then?" 1006 00:46:25,427 --> 00:46:29,132 - Teasers began to appear across all the Superman titles 1007 00:46:29,230 --> 00:46:31,134 in the summer of 1992. 1008 00:46:31,232 --> 00:46:34,870 Someone or something was coming 1009 00:46:34,970 --> 00:46:36,405 for the Man of Steel. 1010 00:46:36,504 --> 00:46:38,307 - Has the Man of Steel met his match? 1011 00:46:38,406 --> 00:46:42,278 An editor at DC Comics says Superman will die November 18. 1012 00:46:42,377 --> 00:46:44,613 Mike Carlin says the November comic book will show 1013 00:46:44,712 --> 00:46:46,950 the demise of the costumed crime fighter 1014 00:46:47,048 --> 00:46:49,185 during a fight to save Metropolis. 1015 00:46:49,284 --> 00:46:51,720 - Oh, good. I'm an anti-Superman fan. 1016 00:46:51,820 --> 00:46:53,322 I don't like him. 1017 00:46:53,421 --> 00:46:55,299 He's like a boy scout compared to other superheroes. 1018 00:46:55,323 --> 00:46:57,693 - This from a guy who wears a tattoo 1019 00:46:57,793 --> 00:46:59,428 of a bad guy, the Joker. 1020 00:46:59,522 --> 00:47:00,997 Teenagers these days 1021 00:47:01,096 --> 00:47:03,166 prefer more violent characters, 1022 00:47:03,265 --> 00:47:04,767 ones like the Punisher, 1023 00:47:04,866 --> 00:47:07,203 Wolverine, the Infinity War. 1024 00:47:07,302 --> 00:47:10,873 - With everybody out there being antiheroes, 1025 00:47:10,972 --> 00:47:13,676 and Superman being the boy scout 1026 00:47:13,775 --> 00:47:14,838 and the cornball, 1027 00:47:14,943 --> 00:47:16,312 we basically said, 1028 00:47:16,410 --> 00:47:19,048 "Let's show the world what it would be like 1029 00:47:19,147 --> 00:47:21,184 if we took him away." 1030 00:47:21,283 --> 00:47:23,152 - Leaving a trail of destruction 1031 00:47:23,251 --> 00:47:25,454 and mangled Justice League characters in its wake, 1032 00:47:25,553 --> 00:47:28,557 Superman's nemesis bore down on Metropolis 1033 00:47:28,657 --> 00:47:30,426 for the final contest. 1034 00:47:30,525 --> 00:47:33,562 - Every week a new Superman comic book hits the stores. 1035 00:47:33,661 --> 00:47:36,765 For the last five weeks, the story of Doomsday 1036 00:47:36,865 --> 00:47:38,101 has been building. 1037 00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:40,069 - By far the bestselling book right now. 1038 00:47:40,168 --> 00:47:41,938 - It sold out in just a couple hours. 1039 00:47:42,036 --> 00:47:46,309 - Newspapers wrote editorials. Fans wrote letters. 1040 00:47:46,407 --> 00:47:48,544 - They were all saying, "How can you kill Superman? 1041 00:47:48,637 --> 00:47:49,873 How can you kill Superman?" 1042 00:47:49,978 --> 00:47:51,289 And I said, "When was the last time 1043 00:47:51,313 --> 00:47:52,916 you bought a Superman comic?" 1044 00:47:53,015 --> 00:47:55,284 "Oh, it's been 20, 30 years." 1045 00:47:55,383 --> 00:47:57,586 I said, "You killed Superman." 1046 00:47:57,685 --> 00:48:01,190 If you're not gonna water the flower, it's gonna die. 1047 00:48:03,757 --> 00:48:05,661 - Well, today is the day that Superman meets 1048 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,598 an unsuper fate, as DC Comics releases 3 million copies 1049 00:48:09,698 --> 00:48:11,300 of the Doomsday issue. 1050 00:48:13,768 --> 00:48:15,204 - It's definitely surprising. 1051 00:48:15,303 --> 00:48:17,573 I would never guess they would kill him. 1052 00:48:17,672 --> 00:48:19,208 - I think it's long overdue, actually. 1053 00:48:19,307 --> 00:48:21,877 Because he's not in touch with the real world. 1054 00:48:24,979 --> 00:48:26,849 - I'm gonna cry. 1055 00:48:26,948 --> 00:48:30,219 I'm sad. I don't want the guy to go. 1056 00:48:30,318 --> 00:48:33,289 - The Man of Steel has proven to be as vulnerable 1057 00:48:33,388 --> 00:48:35,258 as the mere mortals who looked up to him 1058 00:48:35,357 --> 00:48:36,921 for more than half a century. 1059 00:48:37,025 --> 00:48:39,762 Superman died Wednesday. 1060 00:48:39,860 --> 00:48:44,233 - DC sold over 6 million copies of issue number 75, 1061 00:48:44,332 --> 00:48:47,370 including a poly-wrapped platinum collector's edition 1062 00:48:47,468 --> 00:48:50,206 and several deluxe variants. 1063 00:48:50,305 --> 00:48:52,008 For the next four months, 1064 00:48:52,106 --> 00:48:55,811 all four Superman titles went dark. 1065 00:48:55,911 --> 00:48:57,413 - Not soon after that, they say, 1066 00:48:57,511 --> 00:48:59,082 "Hey, what can we do with Batman? 1067 00:48:59,180 --> 00:49:00,649 "Let's break his back. 1068 00:49:00,748 --> 00:49:03,252 "Let's bring Bane in, soup him up with venom." 1069 00:49:03,351 --> 00:49:06,489 Just kind of like, LeBron James, just boom. 1070 00:49:06,587 --> 00:49:09,525 - As the collector's market boiled hotter, 1071 00:49:09,624 --> 00:49:12,228 DC, Marvel, and Image ramped up the sex 1072 00:49:12,327 --> 00:49:14,363 and violence in a fevered competition 1073 00:49:14,462 --> 00:49:16,332 for eyeballs and dollars. 1074 00:49:16,431 --> 00:49:18,601 - There wasn't a whole lot of good versus evil. 1075 00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:20,803 It was more like every comic was a wrestling match, 1076 00:49:20,901 --> 00:49:23,072 and how can we make each issue more outrageous 1077 00:49:23,171 --> 00:49:25,641 than the previous one? 1078 00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:29,878 This didn't sit great with me, personally, 1079 00:49:29,978 --> 00:49:32,648 nor did it with Alex Ross. 1080 00:49:32,747 --> 00:49:35,451 - Artist Alex Ross and writer Mark Waid 1081 00:49:35,549 --> 00:49:37,820 came to DC with complementary talents 1082 00:49:37,919 --> 00:49:42,491 and a shared belief in what superheroes stood for. 1083 00:49:46,694 --> 00:49:48,764 - From about the age of four or five 1084 00:49:48,862 --> 00:49:52,868 is when I first became introduced to superheroes. 1085 00:49:52,968 --> 00:49:56,139 I liked the embodiment 1086 00:49:56,238 --> 00:49:58,374 of what Superman was supposed to be... 1087 00:49:58,473 --> 00:50:01,044 All things good and all things strong 1088 00:50:01,142 --> 00:50:03,846 in equal measure. 1089 00:50:03,945 --> 00:50:05,048 Every other character 1090 00:50:05,147 --> 00:50:06,749 was less powerful than this guy 1091 00:50:06,847 --> 00:50:10,319 who could effectively make his will action. 1092 00:50:10,418 --> 00:50:12,421 - Alex and I were not interested 1093 00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,159 in cynical characters and cynical, dark comics. 1094 00:50:16,257 --> 00:50:19,462 I was interested in these characters 1095 00:50:19,562 --> 00:50:20,896 as hopeful. 1096 00:50:20,995 --> 00:50:23,066 I was interested in these characters as positive. 1097 00:50:23,165 --> 00:50:24,700 I was interested in these characters 1098 00:50:24,799 --> 00:50:26,602 as something you could look up to. 1099 00:50:26,701 --> 00:50:29,705 And let's take a new look and a fresh look 1100 00:50:29,804 --> 00:50:32,575 at what these characters bring to the table. 1101 00:50:37,678 --> 00:50:40,549 - In the summer of 1996, Ross and Wade 1102 00:50:40,648 --> 00:50:43,619 released the first issue of "Kingdom Come," 1103 00:50:43,718 --> 00:50:45,454 a resetting of the Superman myth 1104 00:50:45,553 --> 00:50:47,991 in which the Man of Steel never died, 1105 00:50:48,089 --> 00:50:49,892 but went into voluntary exile, 1106 00:50:49,991 --> 00:50:52,528 leaving America in the care of a younger, 1107 00:50:52,627 --> 00:50:55,631 more violent breed of superhero. 1108 00:50:55,729 --> 00:50:57,833 When their infighting brings chaos, 1109 00:50:57,932 --> 00:51:01,637 Superman must return to restore order. 1110 00:51:03,371 --> 00:51:04,974 - And at that moment, 1111 00:51:05,073 --> 00:51:06,842 all the comic industry collapsed. 1112 00:51:06,941 --> 00:51:09,178 I got a note saying every single contact 1113 00:51:09,277 --> 00:51:10,813 I have at Marvel is fired. 1114 00:51:10,907 --> 00:51:12,448 Marvel has declared bankruptcy. 1115 00:51:12,547 --> 00:51:15,751 - People realized they couldn't keep flipping these books 1116 00:51:15,850 --> 00:51:17,220 to nonexistent customers, 1117 00:51:17,318 --> 00:51:19,288 and the industry really collapsed, 1118 00:51:19,387 --> 00:51:22,558 and a lot of smaller companies went away. 1119 00:51:24,225 --> 00:51:27,263 - When the bottom dropped out of the collector's market, 1120 00:51:27,362 --> 00:51:28,664 Vertigo was still standing 1121 00:51:28,763 --> 00:51:30,466 because people were not collecting them. 1122 00:51:30,564 --> 00:51:32,368 They were actually reading them. 1123 00:51:32,467 --> 00:51:34,203 - With the industry reeling, 1124 00:51:34,301 --> 00:51:38,307 Ross and Wade worked to finish a tale that drew inspiration 1125 00:51:38,406 --> 00:51:39,909 from their own lives. 1126 00:51:40,007 --> 00:51:42,011 - Honestly, the first intent of "Kingdom Come" 1127 00:51:42,105 --> 00:51:45,481 is I wanted to paint a comic series 1128 00:51:45,579 --> 00:51:48,717 with the DC characters hanging out with my father. 1129 00:51:48,816 --> 00:51:52,055 - Norman McCay, who is the narrator of our story, 1130 00:51:52,152 --> 00:51:55,524 that's Alex's dad. - My father was a minister. 1131 00:51:55,623 --> 00:51:57,994 And there's kind of a humanitarian aspect 1132 00:51:58,091 --> 00:52:01,764 to that job that I wanted to incorporate. 1133 00:52:01,863 --> 00:52:03,866 - Ross's father serves as a stand-in 1134 00:52:03,964 --> 00:52:06,802 for ordinary people and a moral compass 1135 00:52:06,902 --> 00:52:08,504 to the superhumans. 1136 00:52:08,602 --> 00:52:10,306 When Superman's plan to contain 1137 00:52:10,405 --> 00:52:12,575 the rogue superheroes fails, 1138 00:52:12,674 --> 00:52:15,311 the US Army launches a nuclear strike 1139 00:52:15,409 --> 00:52:17,914 to eliminate them. 1140 00:52:27,521 --> 00:52:30,059 Furious, Superman retaliates. 1141 00:52:33,528 --> 00:52:36,732 But McCay stops him with a rebuke. 1142 00:52:36,830 --> 00:52:40,669 Ordinary humans need a say in their own lives 1143 00:52:40,768 --> 00:52:44,340 and will distrust superpower unless it is matched 1144 00:52:44,439 --> 00:52:47,376 with equal restraint and wisdom. 1145 00:52:51,045 --> 00:52:55,518 McCay's words touch Superman, and he makes a promise. 1146 00:52:55,616 --> 00:52:58,687 "The problems we face still exist. 1147 00:52:58,786 --> 00:53:01,524 "We're not going to solve them for you. 1148 00:53:01,623 --> 00:53:04,493 We're going to solve them with you." 1149 00:53:06,427 --> 00:53:08,064 - That's what makes Superman Superman. 1150 00:53:08,162 --> 00:53:11,034 Superman's greatest superpower is not that he can fly 1151 00:53:11,132 --> 00:53:12,668 or that he can lift a car. 1152 00:53:12,767 --> 00:53:15,905 It's that with the ability to do anything, 1153 00:53:16,004 --> 00:53:19,203 take anything, have anything he wants, 1154 00:53:19,307 --> 00:53:23,412 he's selfless beyond reason. 1155 00:53:23,506 --> 00:53:25,982 He will never ever put himself and his needs 1156 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,851 and his wants before anyone else's. 1157 00:53:30,652 --> 00:53:33,256 That is an amazing superpower. 1158 00:53:35,823 --> 00:53:37,493 - Through all the flaws of human beings, 1159 00:53:37,592 --> 00:53:39,195 we've actually created characters 1160 00:53:39,294 --> 00:53:40,930 who are without flaws. 1161 00:53:41,029 --> 00:53:42,731 It kind of makes humans better than God. 1162 00:53:42,830 --> 00:53:45,368 God could only make a fallen humanity. 1163 00:53:45,466 --> 00:53:48,504 We made beings better than us. 1164 00:53:48,604 --> 00:53:49,838 That's kind of cool. 1165 00:53:49,938 --> 00:53:51,740 That shows an imaginative facility 1166 00:53:51,839 --> 00:53:54,210 that we should be relying on a little bit more 1167 00:53:54,309 --> 00:53:55,945 and trying to be more like that. 1168 00:53:56,044 --> 00:53:58,181 We have the capacity. We built Superman. 1169 00:53:58,279 --> 00:53:59,848 We made Superman. 1170 00:53:59,947 --> 00:54:01,891 Superman can solve any problem, however, we apply that. 1171 00:54:01,915 --> 00:54:04,587 - As the comics business struggled 1172 00:54:04,685 --> 00:54:06,855 to rise from the ashes again, 1173 00:54:06,954 --> 00:54:11,560 salvation would come from a chorus of unheard voices. 1174 00:54:11,659 --> 00:54:13,257 - When the characters have been around 1175 00:54:13,361 --> 00:54:14,931 for 80-some-odd years, 1176 00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:16,465 you can go two ways. 1177 00:54:16,564 --> 00:54:18,801 One is to be very traditional in your approach 1178 00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:21,170 or you could chart a different path, 1179 00:54:21,269 --> 00:54:23,472 which is to really try 1180 00:54:23,571 --> 00:54:26,675 to revolutionize the universe. 1181 00:54:26,774 --> 00:54:29,545 To change things, bring in different voices 1182 00:54:29,643 --> 00:54:32,048 behind the scenes to create stories, 1183 00:54:32,146 --> 00:54:34,517 you have to constantly pump new life into these characters. 1184 00:54:34,615 --> 00:54:36,819 Because like I keep saying, it ain't the characters, 1185 00:54:36,919 --> 00:54:38,587 it's the creators. 1186 00:54:38,686 --> 00:54:41,257 - So we can reflect back on those early stories 1187 00:54:41,356 --> 00:54:45,028 and breathe a different kind of life into them. 1188 00:54:45,127 --> 00:54:47,263 And because of that, it gives me hope. 1189 00:54:47,356 --> 00:54:50,166 It gives me hope that the story can change. 1190 00:54:50,265 --> 00:54:52,902 - Comic books are the dreams and aspirations 1191 00:54:53,001 --> 00:54:54,637 of human beings. 1192 00:54:54,735 --> 00:54:57,373 That's why we love comic books. 1193 00:54:57,472 --> 00:55:00,276 We think maybe if the conditions 1194 00:55:00,375 --> 00:55:02,678 present themselves, 1195 00:55:02,777 --> 00:55:05,881 we will be the hero of the moment.