1 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:30,600 The misunderstood monster is the most well -known character in Tim Burton's 2 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:31,600 movies. 3 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:36,820 The feeling of not being understood recurs throughout all of his projects. 4 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:44,120 Not being able to communicate compelled Tim to create, to communicate through 5 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,460 filmmaking, through visual medium. 6 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,800 So much of his work is about the outsider. 7 00:00:50,620 --> 00:00:57,260 Someone who is not as accepted into either the polite society or the clique 8 00:00:57,260 --> 00:01:02,420 school. For him, the monster was always the thing that his heart went out to. 9 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:10,080 A monster reacting to society's reaction to him. Like Frankenstein, 10 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,040 perhaps, there is that innocence, and then there's the interaction with the 11 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,200 outside forces that break up that purity. 12 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:21,410 That's fascinating to Tim. 13 00:01:22,070 --> 00:01:28,910 He's very attracted to the downtrodden, and there's a slice of insanity in all 14 00:01:28,910 --> 00:01:30,110 of it that he taps into. 15 00:01:30,970 --> 00:01:36,450 Tim subverts the exterior of characters and digs deep and has a lot of empathy 16 00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:40,230 for those outsiders or people who maybe present as one thing but are actually 17 00:01:40,230 --> 00:01:41,230 another. 18 00:01:41,530 --> 00:01:45,170 He's able to articulate that misunderstood monster's theme so 19 00:01:45,770 --> 00:01:49,410 He felt that way as a child and feels a lot like that now. 20 00:01:50,770 --> 00:01:54,810 And he redefines what is weird and what's acceptable. 21 00:01:56,530 --> 00:01:58,570 We see that life is complex. 22 00:01:59,330 --> 00:02:03,050 That's the thing that people gravitate towards and what makes it exciting and 23 00:02:03,050 --> 00:02:04,270 makes it a Tim Burton movie. 24 00:03:25,450 --> 00:03:29,030 A lot of Tim Burton's characters are autobiographical. 25 00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:34,130 Edward Scissorhands was unable to touch anyone because of his hands. 26 00:03:34,490 --> 00:03:40,770 And it reflects the sense of isolation that Tim felt growing up in Burbank. 27 00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:46,330 He fell out of place where he came from, where he was born. 28 00:03:50,470 --> 00:03:53,870 He totally created his own destiny and his own self. 29 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,120 His mode of communicating is visual. It's entirely visual. 30 00:03:58,340 --> 00:04:00,240 He doesn't need words. 31 00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:03,240 That's why he relates to a dog. 32 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,940 It's all creation, and it's all from the imagination. 33 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,540 He could be from anywhere. 34 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,060 He's totally invented himself. 35 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:23,100 If there's ever a character that was the closest to Tim, it would be Edward. 36 00:04:26,220 --> 00:04:32,600 The sort of metaphor of Edward Scissorhands, the symbolism of this man 37 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,220 not touch people and how badly he wanted to connect. 38 00:04:39,380 --> 00:04:42,380 He was afraid to touch himself, let alone other people. 39 00:04:42,660 --> 00:04:48,840 And there were amazing things about him that pulled you in and that were very 40 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:53,500 attractive, but at the same time, people were scared of him and saw him as 41 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:58,920 dangerous. I got all of that, and I think everyone does, from the visual of 42 00:04:58,920 --> 00:04:59,920 character. 43 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:03,840 When he first started working with Johnny Depp, here's the star of 21 Jump 44 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,740 Street in a Tim Burton movie. It's not what you think it's going to be, and 45 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:08,800 that's the magic. 46 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:15,160 The thing that I like so much about Johnny is that he, in his own life, has 47 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,800 lot of themes and issues that are very similar to the character. 48 00:05:20,390 --> 00:05:24,630 Johnny looks the way he does in real life. And, you know, he's on the cover 49 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:30,030 all these teen magazines and very popular, you know, like as a sex symbol, 50 00:05:30,030 --> 00:05:31,830 of, you know, teen sex symbol. 51 00:05:32,070 --> 00:05:34,650 But he's very much not that way as a person. 52 00:05:35,790 --> 00:05:39,730 He's such a sensitive, vulnerable person. 53 00:05:40,210 --> 00:05:45,970 That's what Tim and I have sensed, that combination of dignity, strength, and 54 00:05:45,970 --> 00:05:49,490 sensitivity. And just visually, he's... 55 00:05:49,870 --> 00:05:52,550 So beautiful, just ridiculous. 56 00:05:53,130 --> 00:05:55,410 And so uncomfortable with that. 57 00:05:56,010 --> 00:06:00,450 I was completely freaked out by it. 58 00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:05,750 Paparazzi would take pictures of me. People would whisper and point their 59 00:06:05,750 --> 00:06:10,550 fingers and stuff. I felt like this sort of raw nerve on display. 60 00:06:14,210 --> 00:06:19,170 What I noticed the first time we met was... He wasn't really saying very many 61 00:06:19,170 --> 00:06:25,210 words. He would begin a sentence, and then I would go, yeah, oh, yeah, and 62 00:06:25,210 --> 00:06:28,110 we would talk about Boris Karloff or something. 63 00:06:28,430 --> 00:06:30,410 We had related on a lot of levels. 64 00:06:31,310 --> 00:06:37,370 After three and a half hours of a really great yak with a guy, I still thought, 65 00:06:37,510 --> 00:06:40,730 no chance, man, no chance. 66 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:46,660 So about a month after the meeting, I get this phone call from Denise Denovi. 67 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,920 She said, Johnny, and I said, yeah. She goes, 68 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:52,320 you're Edward Scissorhands. 69 00:06:54,860 --> 00:06:56,940 And I made her repeat it. Like, what, what? 70 00:06:57,420 --> 00:06:59,240 She said, you're Edward Scissorhands. 71 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:12,240 When I was bringing to life a character that Tim Burton created in his youth, 72 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:17,220 because that's what he felt like, the more that I dove in, the more that I 73 00:07:17,220 --> 00:07:23,820 thought about it, I realized, oh, Tim is Edward Scissorhands. 74 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:26,700 Tim's Edward Scissorhands. 75 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,140 And that's when just pure fear sets in. 76 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:40,520 I was cast in the film, but I was stepping into a kind of family that I 77 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,960 been totally brought into yet. 78 00:07:43,740 --> 00:07:47,440 I was absolutely convinced that I was blowing it. 79 00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:52,900 Tim had rehearsed everyone else in the cast. 80 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:54,140 Everyone. 81 00:07:54,540 --> 00:07:55,540 Not me. 82 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,500 He didn't rehearse me. 83 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,740 He was excluding me from the cast and crew. 84 00:08:02,630 --> 00:08:07,190 isolating me. I remember it was, yeah, man, it was scary. 85 00:08:07,990 --> 00:08:09,550 I was uber paranoid. 86 00:08:09,890 --> 00:08:11,410 Why is he not rehearsing me? 87 00:08:11,770 --> 00:08:15,990 Well, maybe he trusts me. No, he doesn't. He doesn't trust you. What are 88 00:08:16,030 --> 00:08:17,029 nuts? 89 00:08:17,030 --> 00:08:21,430 He's going to cast someone else, man. I'm sitting around the hotel room, no 90 00:08:21,550 --> 00:08:26,510 nothing. Oh, God, he's going to cast someone else. Bang, bang, bang on the 91 00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:30,450 I look, and there's two teenage girls. 92 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,360 Is Tom Hanks here? 93 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:34,860 I went, I'm sorry, what? 94 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:36,960 It's Tom Hanks. 95 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,980 He's going to replace me any second now. I'm in his room at this point. 96 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,500 Maybe Tim bribed him, I don't know. You can't trust the guy. He's from Burbank, 97 00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:48,999 you know. 98 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,340 I remember the first day we shot, it was inside the van. 99 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:56,840 Tim, he didn't audition Johnny. 100 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,300 It was the first time he was going to do this character. 101 00:09:01,070 --> 00:09:02,070 He was nervous. 102 00:09:02,330 --> 00:09:08,150 We did a couple takes, and then him and Tim went off and talked, and then 103 00:09:08,150 --> 00:09:12,570 whatever happened, happened, and he was amazing in it. 104 00:09:13,430 --> 00:09:20,350 In retrospect, he was very, very brilliantly allowing me to be alone, 105 00:09:20,670 --> 00:09:25,230 to feel alone, maybe even more alone. 106 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:32,600 I took that feeling of teenage angst and loneliness and confusion, and 107 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:38,120 when it kicked in, it brought me closer to the character of Edward Scissorhands. 108 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,340 As Jack Kerouac once said, first thought, best thought. 109 00:09:43,860 --> 00:09:48,340 It's your gut reaction, it's your intuition, it's your instinct, and 110 00:09:48,340 --> 00:09:49,520 glued to that forever. 111 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:56,560 First thoughts that I had about the character was... A dog that I'd had, he 112 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:57,560 a close pal. 113 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:05,260 The senses that they display, that we have no idea exactly what it 114 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:07,060 is, but it's clearly something. 115 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:13,420 There is thought. You surpass language because language sometimes is not 116 00:10:14,340 --> 00:10:19,680 It's unconditional love. There's no motive. It's just behaving. It's just 117 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:20,680 truth. 118 00:10:23,310 --> 00:10:30,310 So the less that Edward spoke, the more he could say, 119 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:36,850 you have only the eyes, you have nothing but behavior 120 00:10:36,850 --> 00:10:38,350 and reaction. 121 00:10:43,710 --> 00:10:48,750 Tim's not the most social guy in the world. He's not going to dick around 122 00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:49,629 small talk. 123 00:10:49,630 --> 00:10:50,630 Well, he's very... 124 00:10:52,090 --> 00:10:59,090 He'll come up and he'll say, you know, and I know exactly what he 125 00:10:59,090 --> 00:11:00,090 means. 126 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:05,550 He didn't have a lot of words on the set, kind of walking back and forth. And 127 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:08,950 was following him, and then all of a sudden I thought, no, it's like those 128 00:11:08,950 --> 00:11:12,770 diagrams of the atom. If I just stay here, he's going to come back around. 129 00:11:14,650 --> 00:11:18,630 For Tim, normalcy is the scariest thing in the world. 130 00:11:21,230 --> 00:11:26,130 That candy -colored suburbia is the most frightening part of the film. 131 00:11:27,590 --> 00:11:34,490 The detail, I can't emphasize enough how specific he is. He made all the windows 132 00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:39,570 a little bit smaller, so you couldn't tell why it felt strange. 133 00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:43,070 I only found out afterwards, like, who would think of that? 134 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:49,130 It made a completely different atmosphere of this strange mythological 135 00:11:49,130 --> 00:11:50,130 sensation. 136 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:58,360 That neighborhood was Tim's image or remembrance of his childhood. And then 137 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:05,080 remember these really, really strange things that people considered normal. 138 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,900 Hanging in their house like resin grapes. 139 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:16,660 Not real grapes. Resin grapes. 140 00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:19,480 That stuff has always been... 141 00:12:19,690 --> 00:12:25,350 It's just a complete, utter mystery and fascination to both of us. We still talk 142 00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:26,910 about that kind of stuff. 143 00:12:27,150 --> 00:12:30,230 Even in Dark Shadows. That's where I keep my macrame. 144 00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:32,010 Macrame owls. 145 00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:34,270 A disgraceful misuse. 146 00:12:34,630 --> 00:12:40,210 Those 70s Lowry organs with the rhythm machine. 147 00:12:40,610 --> 00:12:41,690 It's so weird. 148 00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:50,010 It was like a secret joy that... Somebody was just clearing up in their 149 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:53,930 that they would dare to be that specifically weird. 150 00:12:54,270 --> 00:12:56,070 Edward cut it. Isn't it wild? 151 00:12:56,590 --> 00:12:57,590 It was exhilarating. 152 00:12:58,250 --> 00:13:03,290 Everybody wants to work with Tim because working with someone with whom you 153 00:13:03,290 --> 00:13:07,370 share an aesthetic, it's going to be a very gratifying creative experience. 154 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:14,230 One of his collaborators is Colleen Atwood, who's this amazing costume 155 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:20,840 She not only gets Tim and his aesthetic, but she herself has got these great 156 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,380 ideas that she knows how to build upon. 157 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,060 What she knows is important to Tim. The silhouette of a outfit, how it fits the 158 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:35,880 actor, what is this expressing? How is that going to support that character 159 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:36,940 Tim has in his mind? 160 00:13:38,540 --> 00:13:40,120 Hey, Edward, where are you going? 161 00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:42,300 One of my most terrifying scenes. 162 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,380 It was where Tim wanted Edward to cut his clothes off. 163 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:47,940 It was before any visual effects. 164 00:13:48,260 --> 00:13:53,340 My costume supervisor and I taped together the shirt with toupee tape, and 165 00:13:53,340 --> 00:13:54,340 only had two shirts. 166 00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:58,620 So we went all night long, like, taping these shirts together till the take was 167 00:13:58,620 --> 00:13:59,620 finally ripe. 168 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,640 It was a pretty harrowing night, but it looks great. 169 00:14:05,140 --> 00:14:07,740 Now it's real. No wires or anything. 170 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,680 Johnny was amazing with the Stan Winston creations of those scissors. 171 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:19,480 I mean, the first time I saw those, I was just like, wow, such a genius 172 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:20,840 Those things are cool. 173 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,160 Colleen, she was astonishing because she just got it. 174 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:28,460 She had a great understanding of character. 175 00:14:30,220 --> 00:14:32,860 It was almost like method costuming. 176 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,440 What Colleen has done to me for... 177 00:14:36,780 --> 00:14:40,140 Pretty much every film we've ever made together, she puts me in the tightest 178 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:41,140 costume possible. 179 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,220 Sorry, Edward, I just... May I help you with this? 180 00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:53,340 Thank you. It was leather and PVC. 181 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:59,340 I was like an old sea trunk in thousand -degree weather in hot Florida. 182 00:14:59,660 --> 00:15:01,360 I think that was the name of the city, Hot. 183 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,300 It was the dead of the summer. 184 00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:10,880 Every time I'd be like, oh man, it's so hot. I'd like look over and Tony would 185 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:11,880 have a straw. 186 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:13,140 Hi. 187 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,360 Kim was a very challenging role. 188 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:21,960 Kim! 189 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:23,500 Oh no. 190 00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:28,440 This blonde cheerleader, Kim would tease me that he was torturing me in a way 191 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,420 because those were the girls that kind of picked on me in school. 192 00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:33,220 Pretty much whatever. 193 00:15:33,500 --> 00:15:34,479 All right? 194 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:40,960 All right. She actually has the most realistic reaction to Edwards. 195 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:50,500 And she's scared of him at first, and then she grows 196 00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:56,500 to love him, whereas the whole town and everybody else loves him and then turns 197 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:57,500 on him. 198 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,940 Winona had this journey and experience where she understood this character and 199 00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:09,040 what her world was really about. 200 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:13,240 And it lost its appeal because of meeting Edward Scissorhands. 201 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:17,680 There's something so pure about that film. 202 00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:22,600 There's so much, so much heart. 203 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:30,460 The sensitivity that she played her with and the connection that she had with 204 00:16:30,460 --> 00:16:31,460 Johnny. 205 00:16:32,750 --> 00:16:36,070 which, as everyone knows, was on screen, off screen. 206 00:16:37,190 --> 00:16:42,350 They were these two misfits that found each other, and it was that way in the 207 00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:43,350 movie as well. 208 00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:54,010 I remember looking at myself in the makeup the last day of shooting, knowing 209 00:16:54,010 --> 00:16:59,550 that I would never look in his eyes again, and having known and understood 210 00:16:59,550 --> 00:17:00,550 safety. 211 00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:07,020 of playing a character who has no malice, who has no preconceptions, 212 00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:11,339 who has nothing but truth and honesty. 213 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,960 I thought you were dead. He became part of me. 214 00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:17,920 He had become a real person. 215 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:22,400 We connected with him, as people do when they see the movie, so deeply. 216 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:27,640 And you loved him for his courage, his creativity, his kindness. 217 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,400 All these qualities that we want in ourselves. 218 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:33,000 We did not want to say goodbye to Edward Scissorhands. 219 00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:36,780 We were really invested in their love story. 220 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,780 It was just one of the greatest unrequited love stories ever. 221 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:49,520 When they dance in the snow, it allows you to believe that they'll always be 222 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:50,620 together in some way. 223 00:17:52,620 --> 00:17:57,420 And that came from that longing for the character to continue and their 224 00:17:57,420 --> 00:17:58,560 relationship to continue. 225 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,580 Danny's amazing work on Edward. 226 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,680 I can't listen to it now because I will. 227 00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:09,280 I'll just start bawling. 228 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,120 It felt special. 229 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:18,920 I knew we were doing something really special and really 230 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:19,920 beautiful. 231 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:32,490 Tim lays bare everything in his work. 232 00:18:33,930 --> 00:18:38,530 The Green Man, a self -portrait. Of course, when you look at this painting, 233 00:18:38,530 --> 00:18:40,230 think, this does not look like Tim Burton. 234 00:18:40,890 --> 00:18:44,770 He had created this painting after the passing of his grandmother. 235 00:18:45,230 --> 00:18:51,010 The memento mori, a reflection of how he was feeling at the time. 236 00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:54,970 A man in a mask with stitching on his face. 237 00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:07,680 Stitching is not necessarily a frightful motif, but rather a way to represent 238 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,180 the ability to put yourself back together. 239 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:16,320 You see that reflected in the costume design of Edward Scissorhands. You see 240 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,960 that reflected in the costume design of Catwoman. 241 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:25,160 When her mental state starts to deteriorate, the stitching comes apart. 242 00:19:25,860 --> 00:19:27,380 Tim translates. 243 00:19:27,850 --> 00:19:31,190 these psychological ideas into his movie making. 244 00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:35,570 It's literally reflected in the Sally character in The Nightmare Before 245 00:19:35,570 --> 00:19:36,570 Christmas. 246 00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:39,430 She takes herself apart, she puts herself back together. 247 00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:45,170 And this is something that recurs in his photography projects. 248 00:19:46,670 --> 00:19:53,350 So between 1992 and 1999, Tim used a large format Polaroid camera. Only about 249 00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:55,390 six of these cameras were ever manufactured. 250 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,540 Tim used this very unique format to create his photography series. 251 00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:10,080 There is no separation between how Tim feels and his forms of creative 252 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,080 expression. 253 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:15,040 Blue Girl. 254 00:20:15,260 --> 00:20:20,860 He had dressed up his assistant. Colleen created the costume design and she had 255 00:20:20,860 --> 00:20:23,620 stitching applied to her face and body. 256 00:20:24,620 --> 00:20:31,140 Tim does not actively analyze why these motifs recur to him. It's kind of an 257 00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:33,460 innate sense of communicating. 258 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:39,060 One of the photography series featured his dog, Poppy, for Christmas cards. 259 00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:45,860 Dogs are not only in his films, but throughout all of his creative projects. 260 00:20:47,580 --> 00:20:50,680 Poppy, he and Lisa Marie picked up on a street in Tokyo. 261 00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:54,350 How do you get a dog back from Tokyo? 262 00:20:55,650 --> 00:20:57,870 Maybe somebody's purse, I'm not sure. 263 00:20:59,270 --> 00:21:01,170 And he was always with him. 264 00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:13,530 He puts into words what he's feeling at that time. 265 00:21:15,790 --> 00:21:20,200 His... illustrated book, The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy and Other Stories, 266 00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:23,920 is a collection of poems on these misfit characters. 267 00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:59,490 Wordplay is intrinsically linked to his movies. 268 00:22:00,450 --> 00:22:05,810 The Night Before Christmas is a very familiar poem, and then he transforms it 269 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:07,450 through his specific lens. 270 00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:13,970 This project that Tim did 10 years ago disappeared off everybody's radar, but 271 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:20,050 Tim always wanted to do it, wanted to do it as a feature film. Not just that, 272 00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:25,740 but to do it in this... archaic technique of animation everybody knows 273 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:31,860 motion is a little jittery you know the impression of it is from king kong which 274 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:37,820 is very much in keeping with how we did vince as well we were doing scissorhands 275 00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:43,380 about to do batman returns when suddenly there was a new regime at disney 276 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:49,000 jeffrey katzenberg specifically this was the opportunity to say 277 00:22:49,740 --> 00:22:51,300 Hey, we've got this project. 278 00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:53,720 Here, let me show you. 279 00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:58,160 We did get a meeting that was going to be our chance. 280 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,020 We did whatever was necessary to get ready. 281 00:23:15,260 --> 00:23:18,100 We had this colleague, Henry Selleck, from CalArts. 282 00:23:18,490 --> 00:23:20,390 He's a fantastic artist. 283 00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:24,850 He was doing stop motion, and I brought Henry in with the idea that he would 284 00:23:24,850 --> 00:23:29,870 direct it and bring his own expertise and his guidance to our team. 285 00:23:30,110 --> 00:23:35,310 Tim was generous enough and also realistic enough to know what his 286 00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:41,050 going to be. We were all kind of imbued and inoculated with the Burton vaccine 287 00:23:41,050 --> 00:23:46,330 that we were able to motor along as well as we could within those circumstances. 288 00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:52,010 Tim was always working on the script with Caroline and approving storyboards 289 00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:55,710 characters. And like me, he was probably not sleeping much in those days. 290 00:23:57,930 --> 00:24:01,530 Tim was working with Danny on all the songs. 291 00:24:04,690 --> 00:24:11,370 Neither of us had any idea what it should be, but we knew what it shouldn't 292 00:24:13,330 --> 00:24:16,190 Nightmare Before Christmas cannot sound like a Disney musical. 293 00:24:18,990 --> 00:24:21,010 It's got to find its own voice. 294 00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:25,410 Finding that voice is just heaven for me. 295 00:24:26,570 --> 00:24:30,650 Tim was telling me the story like he was just sitting around the fire telling a 296 00:24:30,650 --> 00:24:35,070 story to a nephew, and he'd show me pictures, he'd describe it like, and now 297 00:24:35,070 --> 00:24:40,770 Jack wanders into the forest, and he sees these three doors in the tree, and 298 00:24:40,770 --> 00:24:45,390 sees Christmastown for the first time. What is his reaction to the snow, to 299 00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:46,390 everything? 300 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,100 I would just go, Tim, get out of here. You got to go. He'd come back and he'd 301 00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:53,420 tell me the next part of the story. 302 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:59,520 I wrote every song in Nightmare Before Christmas in order because that's how 303 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:00,520 was telling me the story. 304 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:03,760 And he had a really clear idea of Jack. 305 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,200 In fleshing him out, I was able to inject my own hyper personality. 306 00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:15,290 into his character and i grow so weary of the sound of screams 307 00:25:15,290 --> 00:25:22,290 and i jack the pumpkin king have grown so 308 00:25:22,290 --> 00:25:27,870 tired i helped breathe life into his creature i was also writing from my own 309 00:25:27,870 --> 00:25:32,490 experiences feeling the need to get out of something feeling trapped in a world 310 00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:34,830 that you're the center of that world but you want out 311 00:25:37,870 --> 00:25:38,890 This is how I feel. 312 00:25:39,870 --> 00:25:42,630 I was in a band, but I didn't want to be in a band anymore. 313 00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:46,470 Nice work, bone daddy. 314 00:25:47,250 --> 00:25:48,430 Yeah, I guess so. 315 00:25:48,650 --> 00:25:52,430 Part of me is this character that Tim's describing to me. 316 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:57,910 There was one night where Tim and I went into a studio and we recorded complete 317 00:25:57,910 --> 00:26:00,270 demos of everything I'd worked on. 318 00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:08,010 I did all the voices. That's our job. But we're not mean. Except for I brought 319 00:26:08,010 --> 00:26:10,310 in, obviously, a female singer to do Sally. 320 00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:15,230 As anyone can see. I was singing all these songs of Jack. 321 00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:18,350 Simply meant to be. 322 00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:30,450 I got very, very attached 323 00:26:30,450 --> 00:26:31,530 to Jack. 324 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:35,520 All these singers are being called in for the part of Jack. 325 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:41,980 I remember saying, Tim, I guess I should ask, and I was kind of hemming and 326 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:44,240 hawing. All right, here's my scenario. 327 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,960 When Tim and I first bonded, one of my childhood heroes was the actor Peter 328 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,880 Lorre, and his was Vincent Price. 329 00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:56,140 It kind of defined our relationship because, you know, Vincent Price was the 330 00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:59,640 torturer and Peter Lorre was always the tortured soul. 331 00:27:00,270 --> 00:27:03,950 I'm imagining the singers get the part and suddenly all these terrible 332 00:27:03,950 --> 00:27:07,750 accidents, like the scenario for one of his movies where all these critics are 333 00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:11,110 dying. A piano falls, another gets hit by a bus. 334 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:12,930 And he goes, yeah, don't worry. 335 00:27:13,390 --> 00:27:14,930 You've got the part. 336 00:27:16,330 --> 00:27:17,330 That's right. 337 00:27:17,410 --> 00:27:19,690 I am the pumpkin king. 338 00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:25,510 We were all there in Jeffrey Katzenberg's office to get Jeffrey's 339 00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:29,250 film. We had my maquettes of Jack and Zero. 340 00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:34,990 santa claus an animation test from henry and we had five songs from danny elfman 341 00:27:34,990 --> 00:27:41,170 what i do i am the best for my talents are renowned far and wide jeffrey was 342 00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:45,650 blown away and he approved it on site and we went to work at it 343 00:27:45,650 --> 00:27:52,390 average age of the crew on that movie was like 25 years old it was just like a 344 00:27:52,390 --> 00:27:56,670 bunch of kids in a warehouse in san francisco the fact that it was daunting 345 00:27:56,670 --> 00:27:58,750 was not something that ever occurred to anybody because 346 00:27:59,490 --> 00:28:00,510 We had never done it before. 347 00:28:02,450 --> 00:28:04,790 Everybody was trying to figure out how to draw like Tim. 348 00:28:05,390 --> 00:28:09,110 They were like, I'm going to draw left -handed today and see if I can draw like 349 00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:13,470 Tim. And it was like, don't try to draw like Tim. It's not going to happen. 350 00:28:14,290 --> 00:28:18,310 Tim knows how to draw like Tim, so let's just try to work in his world here. 351 00:28:19,070 --> 00:28:24,390 Well, I brought all the sculptures, all of Tim's sketches, going back to the 352 00:28:24,390 --> 00:28:27,450 beginning so that we had his sense of suburbia. 353 00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:34,590 of horror films, his sense of joy and love, and the slew of characters that he 354 00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:36,010 had created over the years. 355 00:28:36,250 --> 00:28:40,750 It felt like this is what his mind looks like inside, like just all of this 356 00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:45,330 activity and this manifestation of profoundly cool beauty. 357 00:28:45,690 --> 00:28:50,290 There are no right angles or straight lines in Halloween Town. 358 00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:55,330 And in fact, that might have been a rule. 359 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,760 You will notice that we contrast Halloween Town with Christmas Town and 360 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,260 with the real world. 361 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,440 They're all about straight lines, isometric ratios and proportions. 362 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:15,120 It's all intentional, but the ability then to identify these different lands 363 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,700 with such stark contrasts is what art direction is all about. 364 00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:25,060 Zero with an interesting character to create. 365 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:29,550 We did something called Pepper's Ghost, where you have to have a mirror where 366 00:29:29,550 --> 00:29:32,910 you're shooting him someplace else, and then he looks like he's in the shot, but 367 00:29:32,910 --> 00:29:35,870 he's ghostly. He was not a CG element. 368 00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:39,830 The technology was old -fashioned but used in innovative ways. 369 00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:44,570 It was all done on film. An animator would go on and animate them one frame 370 00:29:44,570 --> 00:29:49,050 time. It might take two weeks to do a shot, and we wouldn't see it until two 371 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:50,050 weeks later. 372 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,740 It's petrifying to think about it, but you might look at it in a light blue 373 00:29:53,740 --> 00:29:57,320 days in, and it's ruined. You would have to start again at the beginning and 374 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,160 just frame by frame do it again. 375 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:01,040 It is so difficult. 376 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,720 That was a crazy period. I was actually doing Nightmare and Batman at the same 377 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,400 time, Batman Returns. 378 00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:14,150 Because Nightmare Before Christmas was such a long project that between 379 00:30:14,150 --> 00:30:17,430 it and finishing it, Batman Returns, I think, was in the middle of it. I was 380 00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:20,990 working with Tim on Batman Returns, so I was right there with him, showing him 381 00:30:20,990 --> 00:30:26,870 stuff from Nightmare as it was coming through off of the fax machine, 382 00:30:32,410 --> 00:30:35,510 Tim did think about, do I want to do it again? 383 00:30:35,890 --> 00:30:39,210 How can I not reinvent it, but how can I have it grow? 384 00:30:39,870 --> 00:30:46,850 his visualization of how do I make this a female version of these images in my 385 00:30:46,850 --> 00:30:47,850 mind. 386 00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:49,970 Catwoman was the answer. 387 00:30:51,650 --> 00:30:54,310 Tim got a perfectly solid script. 388 00:30:54,610 --> 00:30:57,030 It would pass every comic book fan's test. 389 00:30:57,370 --> 00:31:01,370 Tim could barely read it without crying because it was so by the book. 390 00:31:01,570 --> 00:31:04,390 I definitely came in knowing that this was Tim's show. 391 00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:08,760 There's going to be no Prince songs in this one. Thank God. I love Prince, but 392 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,260 just the worst songs. 393 00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:12,220 Danny Elfman was going to get to let loose. 394 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,480 I love the way he licks his lips after she... V. Neal's going to get to let 395 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,920 loose. The rules of screenwriting and three -act structure, they kind of go 396 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,560 the window. It's a different process. 397 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,640 This is party time. This is Burton time. 398 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,460 Working with Tim Burton is his own kind of fairy tale, where he's the mute 399 00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:31,200 prince of a tragic kingdom. He's the monster of the cave. 400 00:31:31,790 --> 00:31:36,010 And you try to come up with things that's going to get the monster to 401 00:31:36,090 --> 00:31:37,570 Just don't let him eat me. 402 00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:39,990 So I came up with like a couple ideas. 403 00:31:40,430 --> 00:31:44,330 We wanted to start her off as a real woman on the ground floor, almost like a 404 00:31:44,330 --> 00:31:45,330 homemade cat woman. 405 00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:49,970 When I said the words homemade cat woman, Tim just said, shut up. 406 00:31:50,430 --> 00:31:52,630 He doesn't say shut up. He doesn't speak. 407 00:31:53,270 --> 00:31:54,930 Tim and I realized something's happening. 408 00:31:55,390 --> 00:32:00,050 And he draws stitches like a woman in a sewing machine making her own outfit 409 00:32:00,050 --> 00:32:01,050 herself. 410 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:07,160 Tim is, as a person, is always so connected to his characters. 411 00:32:07,380 --> 00:32:10,120 You see him reflected in them. 412 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:17,240 He wanted to see how strange he could make her and how wounded. So she became 413 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,520 a Tim character, very different from the comic of Catwoman. 414 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,520 He really went into the stitching of Catwoman's outfit. 415 00:32:25,980 --> 00:32:28,500 making it something different, like messing it up in psychology. 416 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,460 I would love to live with you in your castle. 417 00:32:32,260 --> 00:32:36,180 Over the course of the film... Forever just like in a fairy tale. The costume 418 00:32:36,180 --> 00:32:40,200 gets torn up, splotches of blonde hair come up, and by the end, she's a 419 00:32:40,420 --> 00:32:41,820 I just couldn't live with myself. 420 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,580 Well, there is this thing going around. It's called the strong female character. 421 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,380 Right, and sometimes mess it up a little bit. 422 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,620 They think, well, if I make her kick ass, then that's a strong female 423 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:55,680 right? 424 00:32:55,690 --> 00:32:57,570 But they get the promotion at the corporation. 425 00:32:58,330 --> 00:32:59,630 They win the big game. 426 00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:06,810 But if a female character is kind of messed up, kind of not quite right, 427 00:33:06,810 --> 00:33:07,810 a much more interesting character. 428 00:33:08,650 --> 00:33:12,930 A strong female character has a bit of anarchy in her. They don't want to get 429 00:33:12,930 --> 00:33:15,070 the promotion at the corporation because they want to bring down the 430 00:33:15,070 --> 00:33:16,070 corporation. 431 00:33:18,270 --> 00:33:20,410 She's not going to be a pure feminist warrior. 432 00:33:21,410 --> 00:33:23,090 She'll save a woman from mugging. 433 00:33:23,530 --> 00:33:27,790 But then she'll slap the girl around. You make it so easy. Because why are you 434 00:33:27,790 --> 00:33:31,130 being so weak and whimpering? Some Batman to save you. 435 00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:36,210 Bruce Wayne in Batman became a much more interesting character by making 436 00:33:36,210 --> 00:33:37,610 Catwoman an interesting character. 437 00:33:37,970 --> 00:33:38,970 Don't you see? 438 00:33:40,350 --> 00:33:41,350 We're the same. 439 00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:44,450 It wasn't originally Michelle. 440 00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:46,670 It was supposed to be Annette Bening. She got pregnant. 441 00:33:47,230 --> 00:33:50,870 I'd never had, like, such a split -mixed feeling in my life. I was, like, very 442 00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:55,910 extremely happy for her and then was, like, dropping down a dark abyss at the 443 00:33:55,910 --> 00:33:58,670 same time. We were like, oh, my God, oh, my God, you know, what's going to 444 00:33:58,670 --> 00:34:04,770 happen? And the movie gods bestowed upon us Michelle Pfeiffer, who just 445 00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:06,650 was so phenomenal. 446 00:34:07,510 --> 00:34:09,330 And it just hit the perfect tone. 447 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,420 And we didn't shy away from some campier elements and going for the joke 448 00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:18,080 sometimes. Who is she? 449 00:34:18,580 --> 00:34:22,340 What is she? I don't know whether to open fire or fall in love. 450 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:24,620 You poor guys. 451 00:34:25,139 --> 00:34:27,760 Always confusing your pistols with your problems. 452 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,080 Even before there was a crowd -pleasing superhero movie, we knew we didn't want 453 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:34,080 to make it. 454 00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:40,540 Hankman was very funny because, again, both Tim and I are pretty naive in the 455 00:34:40,540 --> 00:34:41,540 comic books. 456 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:43,730 Penguin's a gangster and he's supposed to do this. 457 00:34:44,050 --> 00:34:46,030 We kind of thought Burgess Meredith was a mutant. 458 00:34:46,290 --> 00:34:47,850 Like, people say, he turned Penguin into a mutant. 459 00:34:48,489 --> 00:34:51,110 Isn't he a mutant to begin with? He's not a real person, is he? 460 00:34:51,730 --> 00:34:52,810 So we're already wrong. 461 00:34:53,570 --> 00:34:57,170 And then Tim's got all these drawings of a hideous Penguin boy. 462 00:34:57,410 --> 00:35:01,650 And we're just like, well, now that we're this far out on the limb, why 463 00:35:01,650 --> 00:35:04,270 just go all the way and make the hideous Penguin boy grew up? 464 00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:06,110 And he's like, shut up. 465 00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:08,150 Again, doesn't say shut up. 466 00:35:08,370 --> 00:35:11,130 Penguin forgets parents. I'm fully at peace with myself and the world. 467 00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:13,670 He's like a frog that became a friend. 468 00:35:13,890 --> 00:35:14,990 No, he's more like a penguin. 469 00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:16,990 Penguin was my favorite man. 470 00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:22,310 I mean, you know, first of all, we have certain attributes that are similar in 471 00:35:22,310 --> 00:35:23,670 size and attitude. 472 00:35:24,130 --> 00:35:26,230 We're both birds who cannot fly. 473 00:35:26,570 --> 00:35:32,090 And so we have that little chip on our shoulder and we can swim and peck it. 474 00:35:33,350 --> 00:35:34,350 Anyway. 475 00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:36,240 Tim knew he wanted me. 476 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,080 I went to see him at his office. 477 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:44,600 It was like a wonderland. It had drawings on the tables, on the walls, 478 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,499 the desk. 479 00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:47,280 Oswald was everywhere. It was amazing. 480 00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:52,340 Having grown up, seeing all the different penguins, this was different. 481 00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:57,800 very odd and crazy and Tim -esque. And when you walked in, there was this 482 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,060 beautiful painting. 483 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:06,990 It's little me as a baby, and it says, My name is Jimmy, but they call me the 484 00:36:06,990 --> 00:36:08,170 hideous penguin boy. 485 00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:10,070 I loved it immediately. 486 00:36:10,410 --> 00:36:11,970 He said, please take it. 487 00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:16,830 I brought it home and put it in a place of honor. It stays with me all the time. 488 00:36:17,250 --> 00:36:21,150 That was the spirit of the beginning of it. And once you have the image of the 489 00:36:21,150 --> 00:36:24,010 character, you start changing. Everything starts changing. 490 00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:29,390 You know, and then he sprung it on me. You're going to have to be in makeup for 491 00:36:29,390 --> 00:36:30,390 four hours. 492 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,280 I say, okay. 493 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,540 V. Neal did a great job. They designed the makeup, and he created every bit of 494 00:36:40,540 --> 00:36:43,640 it. From my nails, from my nose, from my hair. 495 00:36:44,140 --> 00:36:46,620 We talked about being abandoned. 496 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,040 I was their number one son, and they treated me like number two. 497 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,320 Being a freak. 498 00:36:52,620 --> 00:36:57,380 But it's human nature to fear the unusual. 499 00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,320 Being a little crazy. 500 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,260 People looking at you and not knowing what to think, not knowing what to say. 501 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:08,040 When I wrote Penguin, I kind of knew Danny DeVito was playing the role, so I 502 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,300 gave some, like, Louie from Taxi. Danny DeVito takes me aside and says, hey, 503 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,280 everybody else have a good time. Who wants to play Danny DeVito part? 504 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,640 not Danny DeVito. I had to go back in and write stuff that I think is outside 505 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,240 his comfort zone. That's the pussy I've been looking for. 506 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,260 He's got a huge comfort zone, it turns out. 507 00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:28,260 It's chilly in here. Catwoman is so extreme. 508 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:35,580 I just fell head over heels in lust with her. I just wanted to peel that, 509 00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:41,520 whatever kind of material that was, suit off of her like a grape, you know, just 510 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,640 take her apart and, like, you know, bring her in one of my lairs. 511 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,100 Speaking from Oswald's point of view, of course. 512 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,980 Here's a guy who's been turned against society, and he's trying to be a human 513 00:37:54,980 --> 00:37:57,760 being, he's trying to fake it, and he realizes... 514 00:37:58,170 --> 00:37:59,590 Human beings are the worst. 515 00:37:59,890 --> 00:38:02,530 Like, it's more pure and better to be an animal. 516 00:38:03,390 --> 00:38:04,790 Did you miss me? 517 00:38:06,970 --> 00:38:12,130 Life's a Bitch, Now So Am I is the key Catwoman line, the key Penguin line. 518 00:38:12,410 --> 00:38:14,030 I am not a human being! 519 00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:15,690 I am an animal! 520 00:38:16,090 --> 00:38:18,950 So it's like a victory when he realizes, I'm an animal. 521 00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:24,790 The duality of the character is rife. There's so much going on, and it's so... 522 00:38:25,130 --> 00:38:30,910 so many conflicts the tone is really tricky because there is a lightness and 523 00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:36,350 humor to it and then there's a darkness and a gravity to it and then there's a 524 00:38:36,350 --> 00:38:40,390 lot of weirdness to it you know it's like where's this coming from what is 525 00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:45,870 so it's a very complicated tone to find for actors 526 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,720 Honey, I'm home. For Michelle, her way of speaking and moving. 527 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:56,700 Oh, I forgot I'm not married. She prepared a lot in terms of the 528 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,080 Him was obviously helpful to her in directing her. It was a lot to come up 529 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,360 the different voices, the dual characters. 530 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:11,620 I don't know about you, Miss Kitty, but I feel so much yummier. 531 00:39:12,060 --> 00:39:15,260 We've seen these people unleash their ids wearing their outfits. 532 00:39:16,509 --> 00:39:20,210 Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne go to a masquerade ball, and they're the only 533 00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:21,210 not wearing masks. 534 00:39:22,070 --> 00:39:23,350 Is that what you think you are? 535 00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:28,350 I don't know anymore. 536 00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:32,190 These are people who are going through craziness. They're messed up. 537 00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:36,370 Maybe Catwoman and Batman are their true selves, and these are the masks. 538 00:39:37,450 --> 00:39:39,270 They're not heroes. They're not villains. 539 00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:41,790 The true villain is the businessman. 540 00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:43,990 I named the character Max Schreck. 541 00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:47,030 after the lead actor of Nosferatu. 542 00:39:47,790 --> 00:39:50,570 Tim didn't tell me to do that, but I knew Tim would like it. 543 00:39:51,190 --> 00:39:54,770 A true businessman has their own weird kind of personality. 544 00:39:54,990 --> 00:39:56,810 You can't even make them too weird anymore. 545 00:39:59,050 --> 00:40:02,590 There's no such thing as over the top when it comes to these kind of men in 546 00:40:02,590 --> 00:40:05,090 society. One can never have too much power. 547 00:40:05,470 --> 00:40:08,790 If my life has a meaning, that's the meaning. 548 00:40:09,110 --> 00:40:10,850 When I first met Tim... 549 00:40:11,050 --> 00:40:14,990 I don't remember what we talked about, but he showed me at one point a picture 550 00:40:14,990 --> 00:40:17,670 of Vincent Price, and he just handed it to me. 551 00:40:17,970 --> 00:40:19,510 I don't know why he did that. 552 00:40:20,290 --> 00:40:26,570 Tim gives very minimal direction, very, like, pointed, specific things that 553 00:40:26,570 --> 00:40:28,150 other people wouldn't think of. 554 00:40:28,370 --> 00:40:32,490 We were talking for some reason about the Great Gatsby, about the gangster 555 00:40:32,490 --> 00:40:38,790 Wolfshine, and he notices that Wolfshine is wearing cufflinks made out of human 556 00:40:38,790 --> 00:40:39,790 molars. 557 00:40:40,170 --> 00:40:43,770 I see you're looking at my cuff buttons. Whose are they? Are they his enemy? 558 00:40:44,630 --> 00:40:47,170 Why is the guy wearing human molars? 559 00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:53,870 An hour later, they went to some dental lab, and Max Schreck had cufflinks made 560 00:40:53,870 --> 00:40:55,450 out of human molars. 561 00:40:55,650 --> 00:40:58,430 Not something anybody would notice, but I knew. 562 00:40:59,150 --> 00:41:04,370 I love going there and watching the painting happening, or the mind working. 563 00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:05,510 It's like jazz. 564 00:41:06,350 --> 00:41:09,770 It's like sitting in with Coltrane or Charlie Parker. 565 00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:14,550 I have an instrument, you have one, you have one. Okay, where do I feel? You're 566 00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:17,950 the guy who's in a costume now becoming this other character. 567 00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:24,070 He's playing in a certain key, you find an opening, and you jump in. In my 568 00:41:24,070 --> 00:41:29,370 movie, which was in Hoffa, I was doing a shot with coffins, and I used another 569 00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:30,370 open coffin. 570 00:41:30,510 --> 00:41:32,990 And there he was, come to visit me on the set. 571 00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:37,520 A little bit of white makeup. He was dressed for the part. We just stuck him 572 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:38,319 the coffin. 573 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,600 Is it a closed list there? No, no, no, no. 574 00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:45,640 Perfect. He played the corpse like nobody else could have. He was 575 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,200 We didn't plan that. Somehow I don't think this is going to end up in the 576 00:41:50,540 --> 00:41:52,860 I don't think we played jazz together. 577 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,820 Both his Batmans were great because they were tense. You made me remember. 578 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,500 He makes everything his own. It's not like he kind of plugs into a film and 579 00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:04,540 serves that film. 580 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,040 Get those wonderful toys. 581 00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:13,620 He doesn't do it that way. Whatever film he chooses, he completely changes the 582 00:42:13,620 --> 00:42:16,220 DNA of it and it becomes a Tim Burton film. 583 00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:21,900 When you're a director that's an original, they want you, but then 584 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:26,080 like, afraid of you at the same time. It's a tricky path to tread. He had to 585 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,360 deal with some studio stuff. 586 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,740 Their notes and their suggestions, which he wasn't enjoying. 587 00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:37,780 And that's hard for a guy that's so involved in a world he's creating and 588 00:42:37,780 --> 00:42:38,780 struggling to find. 589 00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:43,420 Catwoman put a stuffed animal in the garbage disposal. 590 00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:45,900 It was a big fight with the studio. 591 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,080 She's shoving them down, she's angry at the world that she's living in, and 592 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,800 she's turning it into something else. And you can't do that. 593 00:42:53,060 --> 00:42:55,200 And we thought, well, wait a minute, that's your character. 594 00:42:55,720 --> 00:43:00,660 Their job is to be risk -averse, but Tim doesn't care about a risk. 595 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,580 His vision is original, and it's not always evident what it will be. 596 00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:12,480 He is a final cut director, and there aren't very many, so it can be 597 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:13,480 for a studio. 598 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:20,960 If I was standing next to Rothko, would I say, like, you know, that red 599 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,760 could be a little bit deeper? 600 00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:24,770 And it might be better. 601 00:43:25,010 --> 00:43:26,230 Like, would I do that? No. 602 00:43:26,790 --> 00:43:31,690 Tim was this very creative person. Pee -wee and Beetlejuice were such 603 00:43:31,890 --> 00:43:33,690 unique, personal movies. 604 00:43:34,050 --> 00:43:36,910 And then Batman just ended up being this Goliath. 605 00:43:39,330 --> 00:43:42,990 You got to go back to Cleopatra or Down with the Wind. There just hadn't been a 606 00:43:42,990 --> 00:43:49,470 movie that just kind of took over all media, all food distribution, all cereal 607 00:43:49,470 --> 00:43:52,450 distribution on planet Earth. And it was overwhelming. 608 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,400 Tim always talked about working for the brother, meaning the Warner Brothers. 609 00:43:56,660 --> 00:43:59,320 It was a metaphor. I'm working for McDonald's. I'm working for the 610 00:43:59,540 --> 00:44:02,920 Batman Returns had the legendary Happy Meal backlash. 611 00:44:04,620 --> 00:44:09,280 The Happy Meal figures for Batman Returns got pulled off the market 612 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,140 movies just got gore and blood and all this horribleness. 613 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,980 And the little children are crying in McDonald's. It was so ridiculous. 614 00:44:17,890 --> 00:44:21,410 People talk about, we broke this rule, we broke that rule, and how dare you. 615 00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:24,350 When Batman Returns came out, you have to remember, there was not a thousand 616 00:44:24,350 --> 00:44:25,350 superhero films. 617 00:44:26,490 --> 00:44:31,510 Comic book fans thought, wait, you're wasting a Batman film on this wild 618 00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:32,510 of fancy of Tim Burton? 619 00:44:32,750 --> 00:44:36,590 Again, like, oh, the darkness. Darkness? Okay, we're like the least dark Batman 620 00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:38,510 movie ever outside the Tumac world. 621 00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:41,470 Matt Reeve. 622 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,440 nirvana batman and there's no problem christopher nolan blows up a sporting 623 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,560 event he blows up a hospital who cares a guy eating a raw fish using the 624 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:59,380 primordial goo that traumatizes you when you're creative about it when you 625 00:44:59,380 --> 00:45:04,620 work with dream logic that's when you can create nightmares who doesn't want a 626 00:45:04,620 --> 00:45:08,040 nightmare a nightmare before christmas that's a weirder story because nightmare 627 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:09,060 didn't do that well 628 00:45:11,790 --> 00:45:15,070 We did a press junket, 100 interviews a day. 629 00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:19,170 And almost every interviewer, the first thing they would say, so it's not for 630 00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:20,170 kids, right? 631 00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:23,990 And they'd say things like, I hear they torture Santa Claus. 632 00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:27,850 No, they don't torture Santa Claus. He's fine. 633 00:45:29,370 --> 00:45:31,770 Disney didn't understand what it was. 634 00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:33,470 Surprised, aren't you? 635 00:45:33,730 --> 00:45:37,030 I knew you would. And in their defense, there's no way they could understand 636 00:45:37,030 --> 00:45:37,979 what it was. 637 00:45:37,980 --> 00:45:42,140 You know, they've been doing musicals successfully for all these years. And 638 00:45:42,140 --> 00:45:43,580 Nightmare Before Christmas comes along. 639 00:45:44,260 --> 00:45:50,360 And it just doesn't fit into any part of a slot that's comprehensible from their 640 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,060 perspective. Like, what is this thing? 641 00:45:52,820 --> 00:45:57,940 I kept saying the same thing. I'd say, does Halloween scare your kids? 642 00:45:59,220 --> 00:46:02,700 No, they love Halloween. Then this isn't too scary for them. 643 00:46:04,940 --> 00:46:06,340 It was a bit dark. 644 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,660 I mean, it is dark. 645 00:46:08,980 --> 00:46:12,860 They are trying to hit us. There wasn't a lot of faith in that movie. 646 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,940 I knew this Christmas thing was a bad idea. 647 00:46:16,780 --> 00:46:18,700 I felt it in my gut. 648 00:46:18,980 --> 00:46:20,260 They didn't get the movie. 649 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,700 They didn't get the movie. 650 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,400 When it opened, I'll never forget a review, and I think it was in the LA 651 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,940 that said, don't fuck with Christmas. 652 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:33,040 And I was like, oh, my God. 653 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,000 They didn't get it. 654 00:46:36,060 --> 00:46:38,940 And, you know, you just got to accept that. This is movies. 655 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,060 Everybody knows what it's like to pour your heart into something. 656 00:46:42,340 --> 00:46:45,300 To see it kind of come and go quickly and get misunderstood. 657 00:46:46,020 --> 00:46:48,240 What have I done? It's heartbreaking. 658 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:55,040 What have I done? In particular, it's heartbreaking on an animation because 659 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,860 you've got people working on this three years, four years, five years. 660 00:46:59,940 --> 00:47:03,240 I don't think the studio knew what to do with it. They didn't want to do a 661 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:04,240 trailer for it. 662 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,660 They released it for the first time in 1993, 1994, under Touchstone. 663 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:14,680 They didn't do any toys when it first came out. But then in Japan, it 664 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,320 became this big sensation that people were embracing. 665 00:47:18,740 --> 00:47:23,520 A decade or more later, Tim and I are in Tokyo for the opening of Charlie and 666 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,320 the Chocolate Factory, and there's Jack and Sally toys everywhere. 667 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,680 Disney at that point says, OK, we get it now. 668 00:47:32,250 --> 00:47:35,930 And then Disney was like, well, we should call this a Disney film, and we 669 00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:36,930 make toys. 670 00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:40,350 They erased the touchstone, and then they put in the Disney. 671 00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:44,450 And then now, like every year, there's stuff year -round in the parks. 672 00:47:44,670 --> 00:47:47,830 They retrofit the Haunted Mansion into the Nightmare Mansion. 673 00:47:48,190 --> 00:47:51,090 You drive down the street, like there's always somebody wearing Jack 674 00:47:51,090 --> 00:47:56,870 Skellington. It's interesting how, over time, the audience has found him, and 675 00:47:56,870 --> 00:48:00,890 then the studio has to accept whatever it is that doesn't fit in their box. 676 00:48:01,420 --> 00:48:03,520 There's an audience out there, and people love it. 677 00:48:05,260 --> 00:48:07,960 Tim is an artist, and Tim just wants to create. 678 00:48:08,620 --> 00:48:10,580 Visions are worth fighting for. 679 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,840 Why spend your life making someone else's dreams? 680 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,360 Ed Wood was an opportunity for him to strip it down and sort of get back to 681 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,320 like the simple joy of film school days. 682 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,280 We'll have a picture that'll entertain, enlighten, and maybe even move millions 683 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:26,078 of people. 684 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:27,460 Hey kids, let's go make a movie. 685 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,080 It was 1992, maybe. 686 00:48:30,460 --> 00:48:31,760 I get this call from Tim. 687 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,940 He's like, J .D., you around? 688 00:48:37,340 --> 00:48:41,500 Boom, 20 minutes later, there's Tim sitting at the end of the bar, you know, 689 00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:42,459 nursing a beer. 690 00:48:42,460 --> 00:48:43,460 He goes, 691 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,080 do you know who Ed Wood is? 692 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,680 Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, I do. I am familiar with Ed Wood. 693 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,600 I'd seen Glenner Glenda and Plan 9 from Outer Space. 694 00:48:56,430 --> 00:48:59,890 So he started talking about the idea. Look, look, look, when I said that you 695 00:48:59,890 --> 00:49:03,630 could have the Western territories... He didn't even have to finish telling me 696 00:49:03,630 --> 00:49:06,430 the story. I just said, yeah, I'm in, you know, of course. 697 00:49:06,730 --> 00:49:10,570 Whatever you want. No script, no paper, no nothing. 698 00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:12,190 Is there a script? 699 00:49:12,350 --> 00:49:13,350 Fuck no. 700 00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:15,270 You know, tink. 701 00:49:16,860 --> 00:49:19,960 Ed Wood is this guy, he's got this tremendous passion for what he does. 702 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,180 It's like live or die, gonna make a movie, and when he's making that movie, 703 00:49:24,180 --> 00:49:27,260 making Citizen Kane. It's the greatest film that's ever been made. 704 00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:33,360 And cut. Perfect. Printed. Let's move on. 705 00:49:33,580 --> 00:49:37,460 The reality's a lot different. Nobody wants to see this piece of shit! Hey, 706 00:49:37,460 --> 00:49:40,700 can't talk that way about my movie! Tim did not want to make that judgment on a 707 00:49:40,700 --> 00:49:41,700 person's art. 708 00:49:41,940 --> 00:49:44,460 We were concentrating most on his passion. 709 00:49:45,350 --> 00:49:48,950 rather than whether he was looked at by society as a successful artist. 710 00:49:49,330 --> 00:49:52,250 Hey, it's not that bad. You can't concentrate on the negative. Look, 711 00:49:52,250 --> 00:49:53,330 some nice things to say here. 712 00:49:53,570 --> 00:49:56,310 The soldier's costumes are very realistic. That positive. 713 00:49:56,970 --> 00:50:01,330 There was a scene when Martin Landau took an octopus in the water and he was 714 00:50:01,330 --> 00:50:03,390 doing this. 715 00:50:03,690 --> 00:50:07,590 You know, I lasted a little while with it and cut, moved on to the next thing. 716 00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:09,130 Oh, for Christ's sake. 717 00:50:09,690 --> 00:50:13,430 Well, Tim said, you know, that scene with Martin, we need to be longer in the 718 00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:15,350 water. God damn it! It's cold. 719 00:50:15,710 --> 00:50:20,510 It'll warm up once you're in it. Fuck you, you come out here. So I added some 720 00:50:20,510 --> 00:50:21,510 more. 721 00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:25,890 And he said, no, I think even longer still. 722 00:50:26,730 --> 00:50:30,990 Tony, it makes it feel even longer than it already is. I thought, oh my God, the 723 00:50:30,990 --> 00:50:33,290 guy's just sitting there doing this forever. 724 00:50:36,370 --> 00:50:40,090 And then we looked at the movie, and that was the whole idea. 725 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,340 that he's just doing it so long, the acting is off the charts. And I thought, 726 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:46,840 okay, now I get it. 727 00:50:48,460 --> 00:50:49,680 And cut! 728 00:50:50,660 --> 00:50:53,080 You know, editing, there's a lot of moving parts. 729 00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:54,920 The length of a shot is nothing. 730 00:50:55,180 --> 00:50:57,280 But in that scene, it became everything. 731 00:50:58,220 --> 00:51:02,260 He could identify with somebody like that and that passion to just create. 732 00:51:03,140 --> 00:51:07,980 And Tim even then sort of had a bit of a there, but for the grace of God, go I. 733 00:51:08,570 --> 00:51:11,630 and that it's just like a one -chromosome difference between me and 734 00:51:12,250 --> 00:51:16,530 I could have been Ed Wood, and I just could have been the guy living in a 735 00:51:16,530 --> 00:51:19,550 apartment in East Hollywood, just because I'm too weird. 736 00:51:19,950 --> 00:51:20,950 Honey, what if I'm wrong? 737 00:51:21,930 --> 00:51:23,430 What if I just don't got it? 738 00:51:23,870 --> 00:51:28,870 Most artists feel like maybe they're frauds, that they're one step away from 739 00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:31,330 being considered the worst filmmaker of all time. 740 00:51:31,610 --> 00:51:34,470 I wrote, directed, and starred in it, just like Orson Welles did in Citizen 741 00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:37,430 Kane. Yeah, well, Orson Welles didn't wear Angora sweats, did he? 742 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,160 The pink Angora sweater was a form of armor. 743 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,700 And when you think about armor, traditionally, you don't think about an 744 00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:52,440 sweater. But masking for Ed Wood, when he's dressing as a woman, he's at his 745 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:53,440 most comfortable. 746 00:51:53,660 --> 00:51:59,340 Ed Wood being a transvestite was kind of the least important thing about the 747 00:51:59,340 --> 00:52:02,500 character or the movie. It was way out of his time in that way. 748 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:08,300 It was more about how beautiful it was that this guy... 749 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,260 who made these terrible movies. They were so bad, they were great. 750 00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:19,400 And his utter devotion and commitment to expressing 751 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:25,920 his art and expressing himself and how he created this family of choice 752 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:32,920 of other misfits and found someone who was completely forgotten 753 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,940 and lost and dying and made him the hero. 754 00:52:37,450 --> 00:52:40,470 The relationship with Ed and Bella. I don't want anything. I just, I'm a 755 00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:42,750 big, big fan. I've seen all your movies. 756 00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:45,690 Kind of parallel the relationship with Tim and Vincent Price. 757 00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:51,090 Andy, you got a new movie for me. I actually would call it at times, Ed and 758 00:52:51,090 --> 00:52:52,090 Bella Love Story. 759 00:52:52,370 --> 00:52:55,810 And you'll love your character. Tim always had to have Martin Landau in his 760 00:52:55,810 --> 00:52:56,810 to play Lugosi. 761 00:52:57,170 --> 00:53:02,150 There was a physical resemblance, but more importantly, he felt that Martin 762 00:53:02,150 --> 00:53:05,570 understood. There's a lot of struggle in terms of sustaining a long career. 763 00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:10,200 So Martin gets cast, and then they're doing the makeup test, but then 764 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,780 was bugging Tim, and he goes over to the monitor, and he turns off the color, 765 00:53:13,940 --> 00:53:18,640 and he says, now it looks like Bella, because I've never seen a color 766 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,700 of Bella Lugosi, and the color doesn't work with him. And so that was the 767 00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:26,940 that changed everything, and then he called up Sony, or Mike Simpson probably 768 00:53:26,940 --> 00:53:28,460 had to make the death call. 769 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,640 What do you think you're doing? So he just goes crazy. 770 00:53:32,020 --> 00:53:33,580 Not like that, John. 771 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,040 I don't like black and white because no one goes to black and white movies. 772 00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:39,260 And if you look at our grosses, that was proven true. 773 00:53:40,220 --> 00:53:45,340 And then they say to Tim, well, just shoot color negative and we'll print it 774 00:53:45,340 --> 00:53:46,340 black and white. 775 00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:48,100 That's it! 776 00:53:48,620 --> 00:53:51,600 I've printed it! We were with Tim when that call came in, and he was just so 777 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,260 funny. He was like, I just smell a rat. 778 00:53:54,540 --> 00:53:59,640 You can't trust these people. He says, one day I'll be on vacation, and I'll be 779 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,920 in a hotel, and I'll turn it on, and there's Ed Wood in color. 780 00:54:03,770 --> 00:54:07,110 What do you think will be the next obstacle the Earth people will put in 781 00:54:07,110 --> 00:54:11,630 way? Well, as long as they can think, we'll have our problems. 782 00:54:11,870 --> 00:54:16,210 Tim works on instinct. He creates what he creates, and he's not thinking about 783 00:54:16,210 --> 00:54:17,210 the outside world. 784 00:54:17,450 --> 00:54:18,450 I like that. 785 00:54:20,030 --> 00:54:23,770 Tim is very much like... Ed's very happy. Ed just wanted to make monster 786 00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:25,410 He just wanted to make science fiction movies. 787 00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:29,710 He'd call all his buddies. Hey, Plan 9's on TV at 2 a .m. Come on over. 788 00:54:31,930 --> 00:54:32,930 Tim was... 789 00:54:33,180 --> 00:54:38,280 set on johnny from day one it's like obviously they are a partnership but 790 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,440 just like it's gotta be johnny and then it's just like those hollywood things 791 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,920 where it's like oh actually there's gonna be a problem and then we could 792 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,580 sort of see the light go out of tim's eyes and i remember us coming in with 793 00:54:48,580 --> 00:54:52,780 other casting ideas other young actors who kind of like look daniel baldwin 794 00:54:52,780 --> 00:54:57,320 of he he looks like ed wood I think I had a day of Keanu Reeves. Keanu Reeves, 795 00:54:57,380 --> 00:54:58,420 he could be Edward. 796 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,100 Imagine Keanu with a little mustache. And then Tim just looking at us with 797 00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:03,320 broken eyes. 798 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:09,300 It's like, well... Tim didn't want the studios to decide. 799 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,320 And he said, look, guys, here's the deal. 800 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:12,800 Johnny is Edward. 801 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:14,680 Period. 802 00:55:16,140 --> 00:55:21,320 This was someone that he respected artistically, and this was someone who 803 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:22,320 interest in... 804 00:55:22,410 --> 00:55:25,870 going against that grain and going out on that ledge into something really 805 00:55:25,870 --> 00:55:26,870 artistic. 806 00:55:27,170 --> 00:55:31,250 Everybody was waiting for him to come on set, and I had seen him earlier, and I 807 00:55:31,250 --> 00:55:32,490 knew he was a little bit nervous. 808 00:55:32,770 --> 00:55:33,770 You've got to calm down. 809 00:55:35,350 --> 00:55:39,730 He walked out onto set, and... All right, everybody, let's get set up for 810 00:55:39,730 --> 00:55:44,470 112. He looked over at me, and he said, Genovi, am I going to be okay? 811 00:55:45,850 --> 00:55:49,290 And I said, I think so. 812 00:55:50,140 --> 00:55:54,220 I mean, I didn't know what else to say because who the hell knew? 813 00:55:54,500 --> 00:55:56,880 All I could think was, what courage. 814 00:55:57,220 --> 00:55:59,080 In those days, this was a long time ago. 815 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,300 Look at the world when that movie came out. It was very different. 816 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,500 Probably another one of Billy Wellman's practical shows. 817 00:56:05,820 --> 00:56:10,340 I think everyone in Hollywood thought that we were crazy. 818 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:18,220 That we were going in a direction that was for sure to be, they would kill 819 00:56:18,220 --> 00:56:20,070 it. But they want professionalism. 820 00:56:20,290 --> 00:56:25,210 Bill Murray, too. I think, well, he kind of did it for fun, as a lark, as he is 821 00:56:25,210 --> 00:56:26,210 wont to do. 822 00:56:26,570 --> 00:56:29,930 I don't know if he quite knew what was going on the whole time. Like, what the 823 00:56:29,930 --> 00:56:31,090 is this movie? 824 00:56:31,450 --> 00:56:32,670 Mr. Bunny, why throw? 825 00:56:33,150 --> 00:56:34,650 I heard you were becoming a lady. 826 00:56:37,010 --> 00:56:37,908 Oh, that. 827 00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:41,850 After the movie, he came up to me and he said, oh, my God. He goes, I get it 828 00:56:41,850 --> 00:56:46,150 now. It wasn't until I saw your movie that I realized I have to take action. 829 00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:47,760 Goodbye, penis. 830 00:56:48,140 --> 00:56:51,760 Please keep it to yourself. We chose the five -year chunk because it was the 831 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:52,760 Legosi years. 832 00:56:53,550 --> 00:56:57,990 But once you go past that time period, as life just, oh my God, it's just that 833 00:56:57,990 --> 00:57:01,290 struggle. Take me to the nearest bar and make it snap. People who come to 834 00:57:01,290 --> 00:57:04,930 Hollywood with a dream and then it doesn't work out. You have bounced your 835 00:57:04,930 --> 00:57:06,310 and final rent check. 836 00:57:06,530 --> 00:57:10,350 And then it's just a series of flop houses and sleeping on friends' couches 837 00:57:10,350 --> 00:57:14,390 drinking too much. But Tim and Johnny both got into this synchronicity of 838 00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:18,390 there's something so joyful here that Tim almost didn't want to see Ed down. 839 00:57:18,830 --> 00:57:22,890 A ghastly creature. He wanted the joy of I'm a young man with ideas. 840 00:57:23,550 --> 00:57:24,910 I don't like scary movies. 841 00:57:25,130 --> 00:57:28,090 I don't care what people say to me. I can make it in this town. 842 00:57:28,570 --> 00:57:31,710 And it was a very emotional experience shooting it in Hollywood. 843 00:57:32,030 --> 00:57:33,030 We don't have a permit. 844 00:57:33,310 --> 00:57:38,590 Run! On the real street, at the real location, and having these people come 845 00:57:38,590 --> 00:57:42,390 of the woodwork, come out of these apartments, saying, I was here, I knew 846 00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:46,670 One of the PAs comes running over to me and says, there's an old lady, she said 847 00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:47,710 she was married to Ed Wood. 848 00:57:47,950 --> 00:57:51,070 About to get on a bus, I'm like, what the hell? I go running over. 849 00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,240 Kathy, you want to come watch us shoot the movie? I grab her shopping bags, 850 00:57:55,380 --> 00:57:58,000 which clink because they're full of bottles. 851 00:57:58,460 --> 00:58:00,920 She says, I do want to meet Johnny. Hi. 852 00:58:01,420 --> 00:58:02,420 Oh, no. 853 00:58:02,740 --> 00:58:04,140 Oh, no. Oh, no. 854 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,380 We're shooting the Musso and Franks exterior today. 855 00:58:07,980 --> 00:58:09,580 Johnny is dressed like a woman. 856 00:58:10,100 --> 00:58:13,500 He's disheveled because he's upset and angry at the Baptist. 857 00:58:14,140 --> 00:58:19,440 And he basically looks like a $5 hooker. No, this cannot be how she meets 858 00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,640 Johnny. She's like, where's Johnny? Where's Johnny? Door opens, and Johnny 859 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,100 out, and she looks up, and she says, you look just like my Eddie. 860 00:58:29,860 --> 00:58:33,680 Ed was using cross -dressing because it made him feel more comfortable. 861 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,320 Ed's always been rejected every time he's told someone. 862 00:58:36,740 --> 00:58:41,140 When Sarah Jessica reads the script, she blows a gasket, which is so different 863 00:58:41,140 --> 00:58:42,560 in the way Kathy would react. 864 00:58:42,970 --> 00:58:45,970 He cares so much for this woman, he's finally going to confess. 865 00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:49,090 In fact, he's confessing in a spook house. It's completely crazy. 866 00:58:50,590 --> 00:58:55,770 It has all the trappings of Tim Burton -ness. There's spinning wheels and 867 00:58:55,770 --> 00:59:00,230 there's Dracula's coming out at you and stuff like this. But then the ride stops 868 00:59:00,230 --> 00:59:04,690 and then it gets to the heart of what Tim is so good at. The emotions are 869 00:59:04,690 --> 00:59:05,690 through in those characters. 870 00:59:06,370 --> 00:59:09,450 When we wrote the scene, like, oh, Ed's going to explain his cross -dressing. 871 00:59:09,790 --> 00:59:11,370 I like to wear women's clothes. 872 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:13,320 What is Kathy Wood going to say? 873 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,620 There's some scenes that are so perfect. 874 00:59:18,220 --> 00:59:24,800 She just so gently says, okay, how great would that be if everybody was 875 00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:25,800 like that? 876 00:59:26,300 --> 00:59:30,620 You know, the thing with Johnny, how it is kind of funny, but it's also tolerant 877 00:59:30,620 --> 00:59:33,040 and kind and it's given a dignity. 878 00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,380 And then coming back to that question, am I going to be okay? 879 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,880 I just remember the first time we saw the movie. 880 00:59:41,470 --> 00:59:44,050 And saying to Johnny, it's more than okay. 881 00:59:44,370 --> 00:59:46,130 It's like, this is amazing. 882 00:59:46,510 --> 00:59:51,130 I don't think it's contrived with him. I don't think it's a greater plan. I 883 00:59:51,130 --> 00:59:57,110 think it's just his own intuition and his own point of view of not judging so 884 00:59:57,110 --> 00:59:58,110 much. 885 00:59:58,890 --> 01:00:04,450 Seeing a character like Ed Wood and just embracing the whole world of Ed Wood is 886 01:00:04,450 --> 01:00:05,910 a world that's allowed to be. 887 01:00:06,690 --> 01:00:11,910 And I think that Tim really believes that... All those worlds should be 888 01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:13,470 to be as they are. 889 01:00:14,490 --> 01:00:18,250 It had a really huge impact on our culture. 890 01:00:18,530 --> 01:00:22,890 There's so many people who say Tim Burton saved my life, and they mean it. 891 01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:29,210 Being different, being a nonconformist, being interested in things that other 892 01:00:29,210 --> 01:00:34,170 people are not interested in, wanting to tell the truth in ways that, you know, 893 01:00:34,190 --> 01:00:38,330 are not socially acceptable, looking different, dressing different. 894 01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:44,840 All of those things are so hard to deal with when you're an adolescent or a 895 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:45,840 young adult. 896 01:00:48,260 --> 01:00:55,240 His movies inspire, it gives courage and comfort that you can be that way. It's 897 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,120 not like the movies had any anger in them at all. 898 01:00:58,340 --> 01:01:00,780 They are very loving movies. 899 01:01:01,180 --> 01:01:06,380 I don't know really anybody else who's done it quite that powerfully.