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[Train Clacking ]
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[ Woman, In English]
In Theresienstadt,
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this time it reached us,
the transport to the east.
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[Train Whistle Blows]
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We were loaded
into these wagons for cattle.
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RUTH ELIAS - ISRAEL
Deported from Theresienstadt
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[ Clacking Continues ]
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And it went for two days...
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[ Clacking Fades ]
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00:01:16,868 --> 00:01:19,087
and one night.
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- [ Lanzmann ] In wintertime?
- The second day...
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It was December,
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but it was warm inside
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because we made the heat.
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We heated it up with our temperature,
body temperature.
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One evening, the train came to a stop,
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the next day in the evening,
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and the doors were opened.
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And there was a terrible screaming.
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“Out! Out! Out! Out!”
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We were shocked. We didn't know
what's going on, where we are.
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We saw only SS with dogs.
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And we saw, in the distance,
in symme... in symmetric lights there,
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but we didn't know where we are,
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what the lights,
the thousands of lights, were meaning.
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We only heard this shouting.
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“Out! Out! Out!” And we...
- [ Lanzmann ] “Raus!”
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Yes, just exactly.
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And, “ Schnell! Schnell! Schnell!”
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Out we came of these wagons.
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We had to line up.
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And there were some people
with striped uniforms.
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We didn't know what the stripes are.
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And I asked one in Czech,
“Where are we?”
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And it was a Polish who understood my Czech,
and he told me, “Auschwitz,”
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but it didn't mean anything to me.
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What is Auschwitz?
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I didn't know about Auschwitz anything.
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We were /ed into a so-cal/ed family camp,
Familienlager B Zwei B,
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children, men and women together,
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without any selection beforehand.
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Men from the Ménnerlager,
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they came in and told us
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that Auschwitz is a Verriuzhtungsmtger,
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where they are burning people,
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and we didn't believe.
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In this camp,
there was already e transport'
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who left Theresienstadt in September,
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three months before us.
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They didn't believe too,
because we were all together,
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and nobody was taken away,
and nobody was burned.
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We didn't believe it.
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[ Vrba, In English]
Those Czech Jews from Theresienstadt,
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from the ghetto near Prague,
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came into one particular part of the camp,
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which was cal/ed “Bauabschnitt Zwei B,” ”ll B. ”
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At that time, I was working
as a registrar in II A.
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00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:14,573
The division between II A and II B
was only one electrical fence,
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through which nobody could climb,
but you could speak through it.
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In the morning,
I could sort out the whole situation.
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There were a number
of surprising circumstances.
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The families...
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this means men, women and children...
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were taken together,
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and nobody was gassed.
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They took with them
their luggage into the camp,
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and they were not sham.
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Their hair was left.
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So they were in a different position
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than anything
which I have seen until now.
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I didn't know what to think about it,
and nobody knew.
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But in the main registrafs office,
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it was known that all those people
have got special cards,
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which had a remark on them:
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“SB mit sechsmonatiger Quaranténe.”
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“SB we knew what it means:
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“Sonderbehandmng which meant “gassing.”
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And “Quaranténe
also we knew what it means.
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But it didn't make sense to us
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that somebody should be kept
in the camp for six months
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in order to be gassed after six months.
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00:07:18,146 --> 00:07:22,947
Therefore, it was left
open to interpretation
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if “SB “Sonderbehancflung
always means death in gas chamber
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or if perhaps it has got a double meaning.
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And the six months
were supposed to elapse on March 7.
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In December,
and I think it was close to December 20,
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another transport of...
from Theresienstadt came,
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also about 4,000 people strong,
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which was added to the first transport
into the camp B ll B.
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00:08:07,070 --> 00:08:09,493
Also, men, women and children
were left together.
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Families were not torn apart,
old people, young people.
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Everything was... remained intact.
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And their hair was left,
and their personal property was left.
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They could wear civil clothes,
whatever they had.
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00:08:22,877 --> 00:08:26,848
They were given
a sort of a different treatment.
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00:08:27,465 --> 00:08:30,765
A school was arranged
for the children in a special barrack.
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The children soon made a theater there.
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And also it was not really a very
comfortable life, because they were cramped,
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and, from the first 4,000 people
during the first six months,
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the mortality was about a thousand.
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One thousand died.
- [ Lanzmann ] Were they obliged to work?
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Yes, they had to work,
but only inside their camp.
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They were making a new camp road,
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and they were ornamenting the barracks.
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They were induced to write letters,
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induced to write letters by the SS,
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uh, to their relatives
in the Theresienstadt ghetto,
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saying that they are all together, et cetera.
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They had better conditions
of food, for instance?
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Definitely better conditions of food,
better conditions of treatment.
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I mean, the conditions were so good
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that, within six months,
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including the old people and children,
only one quarter of them died.
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I mean, this was a very unusually
good condition in Auschwitz.
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And, uh, to the children's theater,
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the SS used to come there
and play with the children.
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Personal relationships were struck up.
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And, of course, uh,
one of my tasks as a registrar
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was to find out the possibility
of people who are resistance...
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who have got a mind for resistance,
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and to strike up with them a relationship
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and contact, and...
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- You were already a member of...
- The Resistance. Yes, yes.
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That was my job as a registrar,
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that I had the possibility of moving
a bit around under various pretexts,
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to carry papers from my part of the camp
into the central registry,
127
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and, at that occasion, to meet
other people and give them messages,
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take messages from them.
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And one of my tasks then was,
because I was closest to this camp,
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to find out if,
among the members of this transport,
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there are people who are suitable
for organizing a Resistance nucleus.
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We soon found several ex-members
of the International Brigade in Spain.
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And so, in no time,
I had a list of about 40 people
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who had a record from the past
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00:10:50,066 --> 00:10:55,994
of developing some sort of resistance
against the Nazis.
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A special figure emerged
among this family camp,
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a man called Fredy Hirsch.
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He was a German Jew
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who emigrated from Germany to Prague.
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Fredy Hirsch showed
a considerable amount of interest
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for the education
of the children who were there.
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He knew each child by name.
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And, by his upright behavior
and obvious human dignity,
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he became a sort of a spiritual leader
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of this whole family camp.
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Now, the March 7th started to near,
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and this was supposed to give us the signal
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of what is supposed to happen,
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but, what, we did not know for sure.
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CREMATORIUM V
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[ MUIIer, In German]
At the end of February,
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I was in a night squad at Crematorium V.
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00:12:37,215 --> 00:12:39,434
Around midnight,
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00:12:40,677 --> 00:12:44,602
there appeared a man
from the political section:
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Oberscharfuhrer Hustek.
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He handed Oberscharfuhrer Voss a note.
157
00:13:04,117 --> 00:13:11,968
Voss was then in charge
of the 4 crematoria.
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I saw Voss unfold the note
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00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:31,236
and talk to himself,
saying, “Sure, always Voss.
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00:13:31,769 --> 00:13:37,492
What'd they do without Voss?
How can we do it?”
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That's how he talked to himself.
162
00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:43,660
Suddenly he told me, “Go get the kapos.”
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I fetched the kapos, kapo Schloime,
164
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and kapo Wacek.
165
00:13:51,497 --> 00:13:55,468
They came in, and he asked them,
166
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“How many pieces are left?”
167
00:13:57,462 --> 00:14:00,432
By “pieces” he meant bodies.
168
00:14:00,506 --> 00:14:04,977
They told him, “Around 500 pieces.”
169
00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:10,726
He said, “By morning,
those 500 pieces must be...
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00:14:14,562 --> 00:14:16,985
reduced to ashes.
171
00:14:17,899 --> 00:14:20,493
You're sure it's 500?”
172
00:14:20,568 --> 00:14:22,536
“Just about,” they said.
173
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“Assholes!
What do you mean, just about?”
174
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Then he left
175
00:14:29,744 --> 00:14:34,875
for the “undressing room”
to see for himself.
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[ Lanzmann ]
Where the bodies were?
177
00:14:36,584 --> 00:14:39,053
They were piled there:
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00:14:39,128 --> 00:14:42,553
At Crematorium V,
the “undressing room” also served
179
00:14:42,632 --> 00:14:45,226
as a warehouse for bodies.
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[ Lanzmann ]
After the gassing?
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00:14:46,469 --> 00:14:51,100
After the gassing
the bodies were dragged there.
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Voss went there to check.
183
00:14:54,435 --> 00:15:01,034
He forgot the note,
leaving it on the table.
184
00:15:02,443 --> 00:15:06,744
I quickly scanned it
185
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:11,290
and was shocked by what I read.
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BIRKENAU
THE LAKE OF ASHES
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The crematorium was
to be gotten ready
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for “special treatment”
of the Czech family camp.
189
00:15:43,192 --> 00:15:48,198
In the morning,
when the day squad came on,
190
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I ran into kapo Kaminski,
191
00:15:53,828 --> 00:15:59,710
one of the Resistance leaders
in the “special detail”
192
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and told him the news.
193
00:16:05,214 --> 00:16:07,091
He informed me
194
00:16:08,384 --> 00:16:14,892
that Crematorium II
was also being prepared.
195
00:16:15,308 --> 00:16:18,983
That the ovens were ready there, too.
196
00:16:26,986 --> 00:16:29,080
And he exhorted me,
197
00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:34,081
“You have friends and fellow countrymen.
198
00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:40,459
Go see them. They're locksmiths
and can move around
199
00:16:40,541 --> 00:16:44,136
so they can go to Camp B II B.
200
00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:47,928
Tell them to warn these people
201
00:16:48,007 --> 00:16:50,601
of what' is" in store for them,
202
00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,429
and say that if they defend themselves,
203
00:16:53,513 --> 00:16:59,020
we'll reduce the crematoria to ashes.
204
00:17:00,228 --> 00:17:03,698
And at Camp B H B,
205
00:17:04,148 --> 00:17:06,742
they can immediately
burn down their barracks.”
206
00:17:11,614 --> 00:17:14,959
We were certain that the next night,
207
00:17:15,034 --> 00:17:17,662
these people would be gassed.
208
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:23,176
But when no night squad went out,
we were relieved.
209
00:17:24,877 --> 00:17:27,471
The deadline had been postponed
210
00:17:28,297 --> 00:17:31,801
for a few days.
211
00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:33,511
But many prisoners,
212
00:17:33,594 --> 00:17:37,974
including the Czechs in the family camp,
213
00:17:38,057 --> 00:17:41,732
accused us of spreading panic,
214
00:17:41,811 --> 00:17:44,690
of having...
215
00:17:45,815 --> 00:17:51,242
of having circulated false reports.
216
00:17:57,326 --> 00:17:59,749
[ Vrba, In English]
Approximately by the end of February,
217
00:17:59,829 --> 00:18:02,833
a rumor was spread by the Nazis
218
00:18:03,332 --> 00:18:07,428
that the family transport will be moved
219
00:18:07,795 --> 00:18:10,014
to a place called Heydebreck.
220
00:18:13,718 --> 00:18:18,394
The first move was to separate
the first family transport
221
00:18:18,472 --> 00:18:20,600
from the second family transport
222
00:18:20,683 --> 00:18:23,277
by transferring them overnight
223
00:18:25,313 --> 00:18:30,444
into the quarantine camp B II A,
224
00:18:31,027 --> 00:18:33,246
where I was a registrar.
225
00:18:34,655 --> 00:18:38,660
So I could now speak
with those people directly.
226
00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:47,210
I talked to Fredy Hirsch specifically,
227
00:18:47,293 --> 00:18:52,470
and I told him about the possibility
that the transport has been...
228
00:18:52,548 --> 00:18:56,394
his transport,
the family transport of the Czechs...
229
00:18:56,594 --> 00:18:58,938
has been transferred
to the quarantine camp
230
00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:02,308
because of the possibility
231
00:19:02,558 --> 00:19:07,735
of them being predestined
to be gassed on the March 7th.
232
00:19:10,024 --> 00:19:12,903
He asked me if I know that for sure.
233
00:19:13,778 --> 00:19:17,828
And I said, “I do not know it for sure,
but it is a serious possibility,
234
00:19:17,907 --> 00:19:22,413
because there is no record
of any train going away
235
00:19:23,371 --> 00:19:24,873
from Auschwitz.”
236
00:19:24,955 --> 00:19:27,925
And, usually, the offices, the registrars,
237
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,924
where the Resistance movement
had their people,
238
00:19:31,253 --> 00:19:34,097
would get wind of such an information,
239
00:19:34,173 --> 00:19:36,596
of a transport being prepared
out from Auschwitz,
240
00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:38,895
and there was no such information.
241
00:19:39,095 --> 00:19:42,850
And I explained him the circumstances,
and I explained him what it means.
242
00:19:42,932 --> 00:19:46,186
And the possibility, then, would arise
243
00:19:46,268 --> 00:19:49,442
that, for the first time,
there are, in camp, people
244
00:19:49,647 --> 00:19:52,526
who are relatively physically preserved,
245
00:19:53,401 --> 00:19:57,622
who have some sort of a morale retained,
246
00:19:58,406 --> 00:20:00,955
who are certain to go to die,
247
00:20:01,242 --> 00:20:04,712
in other words, to be subject
to the normal execution procedure,
248
00:20:04,787 --> 00:20:08,087
anonymous major
execution procedure, as usual,
249
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:13,505
and they will know it,
they can't be just tricked,
250
00:20:14,046 --> 00:20:16,799
and that this is perhaps the time to act.
251
00:20:17,508 --> 00:20:19,852
And the action, of course,
252
00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:24,978
will have to come out from them.
253
00:20:26,392 --> 00:20:29,771
Because there are others
whose death was imminent,
254
00:20:29,854 --> 00:20:33,575
and those were the people from the
Sonderkommando who worked in the crematorium,
255
00:20:33,649 --> 00:20:36,528
which was periodically replaced.
256
00:20:37,027 --> 00:20:38,779
And they showed a willingness,
257
00:20:38,863 --> 00:20:42,618
that, if the Czechs,
before the gassing, attack the SS,
258
00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:44,498
they will join them.
259
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:50,629
F red y Hirsch objected.
260
00:20:50,833 --> 00:20:52,756
He was very reasonable.
261
00:20:52,835 --> 00:20:55,429
He said that it doesn't make sense to him
262
00:20:55,713 --> 00:20:57,841
that the Germans would keep them
for six months,
263
00:20:57,923 --> 00:21:00,722
and feeding the children
with milk and white bread,
264
00:21:01,010 --> 00:21:03,513
in order to gas them after six months.
265
00:21:09,143 --> 00:21:12,864
On the next day, I got the message,
again from the Resistance,
266
00:21:14,398 --> 00:21:17,902
that it is sure
that they are going to be gassed,
267
00:21:18,819 --> 00:21:22,289
that the Sonderkommando
already received the coal
268
00:21:22,364 --> 00:21:24,867
for burning the transport.
269
00:21:25,785 --> 00:21:27,833
The Sonderkommando knew exactly
270
00:21:27,912 --> 00:21:30,961
how many people are going to be gassed,
what son of people,
271
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,044
because there were
certain rules of work too.
272
00:21:41,884 --> 00:21:47,266
So I called up again to Fredy
and, uh, explained to him
273
00:21:48,224 --> 00:21:52,400
that, as far as this transport
is concerned, included him,
274
00:21:53,687 --> 00:21:57,362
they are going to be gassed
in the next 48 hours.
275
00:22:01,237 --> 00:22:06,710
So, he suddenly started to worry.
276
00:22:06,784 --> 00:22:11,915
He said, “What happens to the children
if we start the uprising?”
277
00:22:12,248 --> 00:22:14,751
He had a very close relationship with the children.
- How many children?
278
00:22:14,834 --> 00:22:16,757
Could be about 100.
279
00:22:18,087 --> 00:22:21,136
Alive.
- And how many people able to fight?
280
00:22:21,215 --> 00:22:24,685
Uh, well, the nucleus was about 30,
281
00:22:25,177 --> 00:22:28,807
and now it was not necessary
to keep any precautions,
282
00:22:28,889 --> 00:22:30,357
and this depends.
283
00:22:30,432 --> 00:22:34,437
I mean, if it comes to fighting,
even an old woman can pick up a stone.
284
00:22:34,770 --> 00:22:37,865
Anybody can fight.
I mean, this is difficult to predict.
285
00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:40,614
But there, it was necessary
to have a nucleus,
286
00:22:40,693 --> 00:22:43,697
and it was necessary
to have a leading personality.
287
00:22:43,779 --> 00:22:46,783
You see, those are small details
which are extremely important.
288
00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:50,999
He said to me,
“lf we make the uprising, what is going...
289
00:22:51,078 --> 00:22:53,547
what is going to happen to the children?
290
00:22:54,498 --> 00:22:56,500
Who is going to take care of them?”
291
00:22:57,167 --> 00:23:03,015
I said, “The children? I cannot say you anything
except that there is no way out for them.
292
00:23:03,757 --> 00:23:05,600
They will die whatsoever.
293
00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:07,770
That's... that's for sure.
294
00:23:07,845 --> 00:23:09,973
This we cannot prevent.
295
00:23:10,180 --> 00:23:12,524
The question what we can do is,
296
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,401
'Who is going to die with them,
and how many SS are going to die with them,
297
00:23:17,479 --> 00:23:21,325
and how will it impede
the whole machinery?'
298
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,529
Plus, the possibility that a part,
during the uprising,
299
00:23:24,612 --> 00:23:26,831
will find their way out from the camp,”
300
00:23:27,656 --> 00:23:29,909
which is possible in such a situation.
301
00:23:30,993 --> 00:23:33,121
I mean, to break through the guards,
302
00:23:33,203 --> 00:23:38,334
because, once the uprising starts,
some weapons can be expected to be had.
303
00:23:38,709 --> 00:23:40,461
And I explained to him that
304
00:23:40,544 --> 00:23:45,516
there is absolutely no chance for him
or for anybody from that transport,
305
00:23:45,591 --> 00:23:47,434
to the best of my knowledge
306
00:23:47,843 --> 00:23:50,221
and everybody else's knowledge
whom I trust,
307
00:23:50,304 --> 00:23:52,398
to survive the next 48 hours.
308
00:23:52,473 --> 00:23:56,103
- This took place inside the block?
- Inside the block, in my room.
309
00:23:57,978 --> 00:24:01,608
And I told him also
that the need of the personality,
310
00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:04,534
and that he has been selected for that.
311
00:24:04,610 --> 00:24:08,035
And, of course, he explained to me
that he understands the situation,
312
00:24:09,031 --> 00:24:11,409
that it is extremely difficult
for him to make any decisions
313
00:24:11,492 --> 00:24:13,540
because of the children,
314
00:24:13,744 --> 00:24:20,047
and that he cannot see how he can leave
those children just to their fate.
315
00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:23,133
He was sort of their father.
316
00:24:23,212 --> 00:24:25,465
I mean, he was only 30 at that time,
317
00:24:25,547 --> 00:24:29,051
but the relationship between him
and those children was very strong.
318
00:24:29,593 --> 00:24:34,019
And he said to me that, of course,
he can see the logic behind my argumentation,
319
00:24:34,098 --> 00:24:38,569
and that he would like
to think about it for an hour,
320
00:24:38,769 --> 00:24:42,273
if I could leave him alone
to think for an hour.
321
00:24:42,356 --> 00:24:45,951
And because I had, at that time,
a room of my own, as a registrar,
322
00:24:46,026 --> 00:24:48,404
I left him in my room,
323
00:24:48,737 --> 00:24:51,240
which was equipped with a table,
324
00:24:52,574 --> 00:24:54,702
a chair and a bed
325
00:24:54,785 --> 00:24:57,208
and some writing instrumentation,
326
00:24:57,663 --> 00:25:01,008
and I told him that I will come,
in an hour's time, back.
327
00:25:01,083 --> 00:25:03,506
And I came back in an hour,
328
00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:06,088
and I could see
that he is laying on my bed,
329
00:25:06,171 --> 00:25:08,014
and that he's dying.
330
00:25:08,298 --> 00:25:10,767
He was cyanotic in the face.
331
00:25:11,093 --> 00:25:13,642
He had froth around the mouth,
332
00:25:13,721 --> 00:25:16,645
and I could see
that he has poisoned himself.
333
00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:18,608
He took poison,
334
00:25:18,976 --> 00:25:20,819
but he was not dead.
335
00:25:21,729 --> 00:25:25,029
And, because of him being so important, I...
336
00:25:25,107 --> 00:25:27,610
I didn't know what sort of poison he took,
337
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:33,036
but I had, again, a connection
to a man called Dr. Kleinman.
338
00:25:33,532 --> 00:25:38,459
This Dr. Kleinman was
of Polish origin and a French Jew
339
00:25:38,787 --> 00:25:40,789
and medically qualified.
340
00:25:41,290 --> 00:25:44,544
And I called Dr. Kleinman
immediately to Hirsch
341
00:25:45,294 --> 00:25:48,889
and asked Kleinman to do what he can
342
00:25:48,964 --> 00:25:51,183
because this is an important man.
343
00:25:52,176 --> 00:25:54,850
And Kleinman inspected Fredy Hirsch,
344
00:25:54,928 --> 00:25:59,604
and he said that he thinks that he poisoned
himself with a big dose of barbiturates,
345
00:26:00,017 --> 00:26:04,272
that it might be perhaps
possible to save his life,
346
00:26:06,315 --> 00:26:09,865
but he won't be on his feet
for a long time to come,
347
00:26:09,943 --> 00:26:14,915
and he is going to be gassed
within the next 48 hours, and he thinks...
348
00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:18,119
Kleinman said it would be better
to leave things as they are
349
00:26:18,577 --> 00:26:20,329
and to do nothing.
350
00:26:24,875 --> 00:26:29,346
Well, the story after the suicide
of Fredy Hirsch developed very fast.
351
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,885
The first thing,
I informed the rest of... of them, uh,
352
00:26:33,967 --> 00:26:35,765
what I told to Hirsch.
353
00:26:35,844 --> 00:26:39,269
Secondly, I moved to the camp ll D
354
00:26:39,348 --> 00:26:42,602
to establish a contact
with the Resistance there,
355
00:26:42,684 --> 00:26:44,778
with the Resistance movement.
356
00:26:45,020 --> 00:26:48,274
They gave me bread for the people...
357
00:26:48,524 --> 00:26:50,276
bread, yes, bread and onions...
358
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,782
and said that I will get...
they don't know any...
359
00:26:52,861 --> 00:26:57,458
no decision has been made, and I should
come later for... for instructions.
360
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,295
The moment I distributed the bread,
something happened,
361
00:27:01,370 --> 00:27:05,000
namely, a special curfew
was made within the camp.
362
00:27:05,082 --> 00:27:07,756
All administrative activities were stopped.
363
00:27:08,377 --> 00:27:10,300
All guards were doubled.
364
00:27:10,379 --> 00:27:14,304
Machine guns, et cetera,
were spread around the quarantine camps,
365
00:27:14,383 --> 00:27:15,976
and I was out of contact.
366
00:27:16,051 --> 00:27:19,396
The transport, the Czech family transport,
was then gassed in the evening.
367
00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:21,519
They were put on trucks.
368
00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:24,564
All of them knew.
369
00:27:24,810 --> 00:27:27,154
They were put on trucks.
They behaved very well.
370
00:27:27,229 --> 00:27:30,028
We didn't know, of course,
where the trucks are going.
371
00:27:30,232 --> 00:27:32,200
They were being assured once more
372
00:27:32,276 --> 00:27:34,654
that they are going to Heydebreck
and not to be gassed.
373
00:27:34,736 --> 00:27:37,239
And we knew that,
if they are going out from the camp,
374
00:27:37,322 --> 00:27:40,667
the trucks will turn right
when they leave the camp.
375
00:27:40,742 --> 00:27:43,495
And we knew that, if they turn left,
there is only one way.
376
00:27:43,579 --> 00:27:45,832
500 yards, and that's where
the crematorium was.
377
00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:22,918
[ Muller, In German]
That night I was at Crematorium II.
378
00:28:28,707 --> 00:28:34,339
As soon as the people got out of the vans,
379
00:28:34,588 --> 00:28:38,058
they were blinded by floodlights
380
00:28:38,133 --> 00:28:40,636
and forced through a corridor
381
00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:48,695
to the stairs leading
to the “undressing room.”
382
00:28:48,769 --> 00:28:52,899
They were blinded, made to run.
383
00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:55,609
Blows were rained on them.
384
00:28:56,610 --> 00:29:01,241
Those who didn't run fast enough
were beaten to death
385
00:29:01,323 --> 00:29:03,576
by the SS.
386
00:29:03,659 --> 00:29:09,007
The violence used against them
was extraordinary.
387
00:29:09,706 --> 00:29:11,253
And suddenly...
388
00:29:11,333 --> 00:29:13,176
[ Lanzmann ]
Without explanation?
389
00:29:13,252 --> 00:29:14,970
Not a word.
390
00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:18,800
As soon as they left the vans,
391
00:29:18,882 --> 00:29:22,182
the beatings began.
392
00:29:23,345 --> 00:29:26,940
When they entered the “undressing room,”
393
00:29:27,307 --> 00:29:34,156
I was standing near the rear door,
394
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:39,445
and from there
I witnessed the frightful scene.
395
00:29:39,528 --> 00:29:43,032
The people were bloodied.
396
00:29:43,907 --> 00:29:46,205
They knew then where they were.
397
00:29:46,285 --> 00:29:49,164
They stared at the pillars
398
00:29:49,538 --> 00:29:56,763
of the so-called “international
Information Center” I've mentioned,
399
00:29:57,212 --> 00:29:59,556
and that terrified them.
400
00:29:59,631 --> 00:30:01,679
What they read didn't reassure them.
401
00:30:01,758 --> 00:30:06,935
On the contrary, it panicked them.
402
00:30:07,014 --> 00:30:09,437
They knew the score.
403
00:30:09,516 --> 00:30:14,192
They'd learned at Camp B ll B
what went on there.
404
00:30:14,271 --> 00:30:16,148
They were in despair.
405
00:30:16,231 --> 00:30:18,734
Children clung to each other.
406
00:30:19,234 --> 00:30:21,578
Their mothers,
407
00:30:22,988 --> 00:30:26,868
their parents, the old people all cried,
408
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:28,543
overcome with misery.
409
00:30:28,618 --> 00:30:30,586
Suddenly,
410
00:30:30,662 --> 00:30:35,964
some SS officers appeared on the steps,
411
00:30:36,043 --> 00:30:42,597
including the camp commandant,
Schwarzhuber.
412
00:30:42,674 --> 00:30:49,307
He'd given them his word
as an SS officer
413
00:30:49,389 --> 00:30:55,442
that they'd be transferred to Heydebreck.
414
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:01,402
So they all began to cry out, to beg,
415
00:31:02,277 --> 00:31:06,908
shouting, “Heydebreck was a trick!
416
00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:11,871
We were lied to!
We want to live! We want to work!”
417
00:31:11,953 --> 00:31:17,130
They looked
their SS executioners in the eye,
418
00:31:17,209 --> 00:31:20,213
but the SS men
419
00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:25,100
remained impassive,
420
00:31:25,175 --> 00:31:27,018
just staring at them.
421
00:31:27,094 --> 00:31:29,973
There was a movement in the crowd.
422
00:31:30,055 --> 00:31:35,437
They probably wanted
to rush to the SS men
423
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:38,147
and tell them how they'd been lied to.
424
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:43,532
Then some guards surged forward,
425
00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:46,955
wielding clubs,
426
00:31:47,030 --> 00:31:49,579
and more people were injured.
427
00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:52,627
In the “undressing room.”
428
00:31:52,702 --> 00:31:55,000
The violence climaxed
429
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:03,932
when they tried to force
the people to undress.
430
00:32:04,005 --> 00:32:06,133
A few obeyed,
431
00:32:06,216 --> 00:32:09,561
only a handful.
432
00:32:09,636 --> 00:32:16,190
Most of them refused to follow the order.
433
00:32:16,435 --> 00:32:20,360
Suddenly, as though in chorus,
434
00:32:21,815 --> 00:32:25,035
like a chorus...
435
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:28,785
they all began to sing.
436
00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:35,371
The whole “undressing room” rang
437
00:32:35,454 --> 00:32:40,051
with the Czech national anthem,
438
00:32:40,125 --> 00:32:42,753
and the “Hatikva.”
439
00:32:43,295 --> 00:32:47,721
That moved me terribly, that...
440
00:33:06,401 --> 00:33:08,699
Please stop!
441
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,911
That was happening to my countrymen,
442
00:33:15,118 --> 00:33:17,337
and I realized
443
00:33:18,121 --> 00:33:21,876
that my life had become meaningless.
444
00:33:22,709 --> 00:33:25,838
Why go on living? For what?
445
00:33:28,173 --> 00:33:33,179
So I went into the gas chamber with them,
446
00:33:36,139 --> 00:33:38,938
resolved to die.
447
00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:42,858
With them.
448
00:33:43,438 --> 00:33:48,410
Suddenly, some who recognized me
came up to me.
449
00:33:48,902 --> 00:33:52,327
For my locksmith friends and I
450
00:33:52,405 --> 00:33:55,534
had sometimes gone into the family camp.
451
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:04,840
A small group of women approached.
452
00:34:05,126 --> 00:34:09,802
They looked at me and said right there
in the gas chamber...
453
00:34:09,881 --> 00:34:12,100
- You were inside the gas chamber?
- [ Repeats Phrase, Agrees]
454
00:34:12,175 --> 00:34:14,553
One of them said,
455
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,814
“So you want to die.
456
00:34:22,143 --> 00:34:23,986
But that's senseless.
457
00:34:24,062 --> 00:34:28,488
Your death won't give us back our lives.
458
00:34:29,401 --> 00:34:31,824
That's no way.
459
00:34:33,405 --> 00:34:37,831
You must get out of here alive,
460
00:34:38,994 --> 00:34:42,965
you must bear witness to our suffering,
461
00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:46,669
and to the injustice done to us.”
462
00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:45,894
[ Vrba, In English] That's how it ended
with the first Czech family transport.
463
00:35:48,730 --> 00:35:50,824
And it was quite clear to me then
464
00:35:50,899 --> 00:35:54,073
that the resistance in the camp
465
00:35:56,237 --> 00:35:59,332
is not geared for an uprising,
but for survival,
466
00:36:00,408 --> 00:36:03,378
for the survival of the members
of the Resistance.
467
00:36:15,048 --> 00:36:18,018
I then decided to act,
468
00:36:18,093 --> 00:36:20,312
what was called
by the members of Resistance
469
00:36:20,387 --> 00:36:23,516
as anarchic and individualistic activity,
470
00:36:23,765 --> 00:36:27,486
like an escape
and leaving the community
471
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,439
for which I am co-responsible
by that time.
472
00:36:33,108 --> 00:36:36,112
Rudolf Vrba
and his friend Wetzler
473
00:36:36,444 --> 00:36:39,994
escaped on April 7, 1944.
474
00:36:40,323 --> 00:36:43,452
Several prisoners
had previously tried to flee,
475
00:36:43,785 --> 00:36:46,789
but all were caught.
476
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,463
The decision to escape,
477
00:36:51,751 --> 00:36:56,302
in spite of the policy
of the Resistance movement at that time,
478
00:36:56,923 --> 00:36:58,721
uh, was formed immediately,
479
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,929
and I started to press on
with the preparations for the escape
480
00:37:02,011 --> 00:37:06,312
together with my friend Wetzler,
who was extremely important in this matter.
481
00:37:06,766 --> 00:37:11,943
And I... Before I left,
I spoke with, uh, Hugo Lenek.
482
00:37:12,021 --> 00:37:14,900
And Hugo Lenek was
in command of the second...
483
00:37:14,983 --> 00:37:18,328
of the Resistance group
in the second family transport.
484
00:37:19,446 --> 00:37:21,244
Yes, and I explained to him that,
485
00:37:21,322 --> 00:37:25,452
from the Resistance movement,
they can “explain” nothing now...
486
00:37:25,869 --> 00:37:27,997
expect nothing but bread.
487
00:37:28,246 --> 00:37:32,296
But when it comes to the dying,
they should act on their own.
488
00:37:32,876 --> 00:37:34,378
As for myself is concerned,
489
00:37:34,461 --> 00:37:40,594
I think that if I successfully managed
to break out from the camp
490
00:37:40,842 --> 00:37:46,269
and bring the information
to the right place, in the right time,
491
00:37:46,598 --> 00:37:48,396
that this might be a help,
492
00:37:48,475 --> 00:37:54,403
that I might manage, if I succeed,
to bring help from outside.
493
00:37:55,023 --> 00:37:59,745
And also it was a firm belief in me
that all this was possible
494
00:37:59,819 --> 00:38:03,164
because either the victims
who came to Auschwitz
495
00:38:03,448 --> 00:38:05,746
didn't know what is happening there,
496
00:38:07,202 --> 00:38:10,046
or, if somebody had the knowledge outside,
497
00:38:10,872 --> 00:38:12,920
that the knowledge was with...
498
00:38:14,834 --> 00:38:17,053
I would say that
they didn't know. That's it.
499
00:38:17,128 --> 00:38:23,761
And I thought that, if this will be made known,
by any means, within Europe,
500
00:38:23,843 --> 00:38:26,062
and especially within Hungary,
501
00:38:27,722 --> 00:38:32,979
from where a million Jews were supposed to be
transported to Auschwitz immediately, in May,
502
00:38:33,061 --> 00:38:34,779
and I knew about that,
503
00:38:35,647 --> 00:38:37,741
that this might stir up
the Resistance outside
504
00:38:37,816 --> 00:38:41,195
and bring help from outside
directly to Auschwitz.
505
00:38:41,277 --> 00:38:44,497
And, thus, the escape plans
were finally formulated,
506
00:38:44,906 --> 00:38:47,500
and the escape took place on April 7.
507
00:38:47,575 --> 00:38:51,421
[ Lanzmann ] And this is the main
and the deep reason why you decided to escape?
508
00:38:51,496 --> 00:38:54,500
Suddenly, at that moment,
to press on with it.
509
00:38:54,582 --> 00:38:56,960
In other words, not to delay anything,
510
00:38:57,210 --> 00:38:59,884
but to escape as soon as possible.
511
00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:03,303
To inform the world.
512
00:39:03,383 --> 00:39:05,556
- About what was going on?
- Right.
513
00:39:05,635 --> 00:39:07,603
- In Auschwitz?
- Right. Right.
514
00:39:22,443 --> 00:39:24,195
[ Exhales]
515
00:39:25,446 --> 00:39:27,949
[ In English]
Now... now I go back
516
00:39:30,493 --> 00:39:32,746
35 years.
517
00:39:37,083 --> 00:39:38,335
No.
518
00:39:39,043 --> 00:39:43,924
I don't go back, you know,
as a matter of fact.
519
00:39:44,507 --> 00:39:46,680
[Sobbing ]
520
00:39:49,804 --> 00:39:52,307
I come back.
521
00:40:07,155 --> 00:40:11,035
JAN KARSKY,
University Professor (USA)
522
00:40:11,659 --> 00:40:15,789
Former courier
of the Polish government in exile
523
00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:22,220
- [ Karsky] I am ready.
- [ Lanzmann ] All right.
524
00:40:25,757 --> 00:40:29,182
In the middle of 1942,
525
00:40:30,219 --> 00:40:34,019
I was thinking to continue
my service as a courier
526
00:40:34,265 --> 00:40:37,690
between the Polish underground
527
00:40:37,769 --> 00:40:42,696
and the Polish government
in exile, in London.
528
00:40:44,859 --> 00:40:50,832
The Jewish leaders in Warsaw
learned about it.
529
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:54,744
A meeting was arranged
outside of the ghetto.
530
00:40:55,370 --> 00:40:57,748
There were two gentlemen.
531
00:40:57,997 --> 00:41:00,716
They did not live in the ghetto.
532
00:41:01,626 --> 00:41:03,799
They introduced themselves:
533
00:41:05,380 --> 00:41:07,633
leader of Bund,
534
00:41:08,758 --> 00:41:10,886
Zionist leader.
535
00:41:17,308 --> 00:41:24,317
Now, what “transcribed,”
what happened in our conversation,
536
00:41:24,983 --> 00:41:28,738
first, I was not prepared for it.
537
00:41:29,445 --> 00:41:34,702
I was relatively isolated
in my work in Poland.
538
00:41:34,784 --> 00:41:38,084
I did not see many things.
539
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:44,670
In 35 years after the war,
540
00:41:47,380 --> 00:41:49,428
I don't go back.
541
00:41:50,717 --> 00:41:53,516
I have been a teacher for 26 years.
542
00:41:53,594 --> 00:41:59,226
I never mention
the Jewish problem to my students.
543
00:41:59,726 --> 00:42:04,903
I understand this film
is for historical record,
544
00:42:04,981 --> 00:42:08,235
so I will try to do it.
545
00:42:11,863 --> 00:42:15,959
They described to me
what is happening to the Jews.
546
00:42:17,118 --> 00:42:19,337
Did I know about it?
547
00:42:19,412 --> 00:42:21,289
No, I didn't.
548
00:42:22,290 --> 00:42:25,669
They described to me first
549
00:42:26,127 --> 00:42:30,553
that the Jews...
Jewish problem is unprecedented,
550
00:42:30,631 --> 00:42:34,727
cannot be compared with the Polish problem,
551
00:42:34,802 --> 00:42:38,397
or the Russian, or any other problem.
552
00:42:39,015 --> 00:42:42,064
Hitler will lose this war,
553
00:42:44,270 --> 00:42:48,741
but he will exterminate all Jewish population.
554
00:42:48,816 --> 00:42:50,910
Do I understand it?
555
00:42:52,111 --> 00:42:55,115
The Allies fight for their people.
556
00:42:55,323 --> 00:42:57,746
They fight for humanity.
557
00:42:58,201 --> 00:43:01,501
The Allies cannot forget
558
00:43:02,955 --> 00:43:08,086
that the Jews will be
exterminated totally in Poland,
559
00:43:08,169 --> 00:43:10,843
Polish and European Jews.
560
00:43:17,470 --> 00:43:19,848
They were breaking down.
561
00:43:20,056 --> 00:43:21,558
They paced the room.
562
00:43:21,641 --> 00:43:23,518
They were whispering.
563
00:43:23,935 --> 00:43:25,733
They were hissing.
564
00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:30,199
It was a nightmare
565
00:43:31,359 --> 00:43:33,361
for me.
566
00:43:33,694 --> 00:43:37,039
Did they look in complete desperation?
567
00:43:38,032 --> 00:43:39,625
Yes.
568
00:43:39,867 --> 00:43:43,792
Yes, at various stages of the conversation,
569
00:43:44,539 --> 00:43:47,133
they lost control of themselves.
570
00:43:47,208 --> 00:43:49,711
I just sat in my chair.
571
00:43:50,211 --> 00:43:52,054
I just listened.
572
00:43:53,464 --> 00:43:55,011
I did not even react.
573
00:43:55,091 --> 00:43:56,593
I didn't ask them questions.
574
00:43:56,676 --> 00:43:59,054
I was just listening.
575
00:44:00,555 --> 00:44:02,023
Well, and then they...
576
00:44:02,098 --> 00:44:07,070
They wanted to convince you to convey...
577
00:44:07,145 --> 00:44:10,775
They realized, I think...
578
00:44:11,065 --> 00:44:14,945
They realized from the beginning
that I don't know,
579
00:44:15,027 --> 00:44:17,655
that I don't understand this problem.
580
00:44:18,406 --> 00:44:22,252
Once I said I will take messages from them,
581
00:44:22,994 --> 00:44:27,215
they wanted to inform me
what is happening to the Jews.
582
00:44:27,415 --> 00:44:31,215
And I didn't know this.
I was never in a ghetto.
583
00:44:31,586 --> 00:44:34,556
I never dealt with the Jewish matters.
584
00:44:36,674 --> 00:44:38,347
Did you know yourself at the time
585
00:44:38,426 --> 00:44:42,397
that most of the Jews of Warsaw
had already been killed?
586
00:44:42,471 --> 00:44:46,066
I did know, but I didn't see anything.
587
00:44:46,142 --> 00:44:50,022
I had never heard any description
what is happening over there.
588
00:44:50,104 --> 00:44:52,152
I was never there.
589
00:44:52,732 --> 00:44:55,611
It is one thing to know statistics.
590
00:44:55,943 --> 00:44:59,868
There were hundreds of thousands
of Poles also killed,
591
00:44:59,947 --> 00:45:02,200
Russians, Serbs, Greeks.
592
00:45:02,283 --> 00:45:04,752
We knew about it,
593
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:07,793
but it was a question of statistics.
594
00:45:15,296 --> 00:45:20,803
But did they insist about
the complete uniqueness of the...
595
00:45:21,385 --> 00:45:23,808
of the situation of the Jews?
- Yes, this was their problem:
596
00:45:23,888 --> 00:45:26,186
to impress upon me,
597
00:45:26,265 --> 00:45:27,733
and then it was my mission
598
00:45:27,808 --> 00:45:33,690
to impress upon all people
whom I am going to see,
599
00:45:33,940 --> 00:45:40,198
that the Jewish situation
is unprecedented in history.
600
00:45:40,279 --> 00:45:44,785
Egyptians... Egyptian pharaohs did not do it.
601
00:45:44,867 --> 00:45:47,837
Babylonians did not do it.
602
00:45:48,246 --> 00:45:51,546
Now, for the first time in history,
603
00:45:51,624 --> 00:45:55,549
actually, they came to the conclusion:
604
00:45:55,628 --> 00:46:01,556
Unless the Allies take
some unprecedented steps,
605
00:46:01,801 --> 00:46:06,056
regardless of the outcome of the war,
606
00:46:06,681 --> 00:46:11,027
the Jews will be totally exterminated.
607
00:46:11,477 --> 00:46:13,696
And they cannot accept it.
608
00:46:15,731 --> 00:46:18,610
This means that they asked
for very specific measures for the...
609
00:46:18,693 --> 00:46:20,366
Yes.
610
00:46:20,861 --> 00:46:24,741
So then, excha... interchangeably,
611
00:46:25,283 --> 00:46:27,661
at a certain point, the... the Bund leader,
612
00:46:27,743 --> 00:46:30,496
at a certain point, the Zionist leader...
613
00:46:31,539 --> 00:46:33,917
Then what do they want?
614
00:46:34,375 --> 00:46:37,720
What message am I supposed to take?
615
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,550
Then they gave me messages,
616
00:46:42,341 --> 00:46:47,472
various messages
to the Allied governments, as such.
617
00:46:47,555 --> 00:46:54,404
I was to see as many
government officials as I could.
618
00:46:55,604 --> 00:46:57,698
As I could, of course.
619
00:46:57,773 --> 00:47:00,947
Then, to the Polish government.
620
00:47:01,193 --> 00:47:04,493
Then to the president of the Polish Republic.
621
00:47:04,739 --> 00:47:08,585
Then to the international Jewish leaders,
622
00:47:10,619 --> 00:47:17,173
and to individual political leaders,
leading intellectuals.
623
00:47:17,251 --> 00:47:21,222
Approach as many people as possible.
624
00:47:21,297 --> 00:47:24,096
And then they gave me segments:
625
00:47:24,175 --> 00:47:28,021
To whom do I report what?
626
00:47:28,596 --> 00:47:31,896
So now, in this nightmarish...
- Excuse me.
627
00:47:33,267 --> 00:47:35,611
Two meetings, I had with them,
628
00:47:35,686 --> 00:47:38,155
nightmarish meetings.
629
00:47:38,397 --> 00:47:43,324
Well, then, they presented their demands,
630
00:47:43,569 --> 00:47:45,412
separate demands.
631
00:47:53,371 --> 00:47:55,089
The message was:
632
00:47:57,083 --> 00:48:03,307
“Hitler cannot be allowed
to continue extermination.
633
00:48:06,133 --> 00:48:08,227
Every day counts.”
634
00:48:12,723 --> 00:48:15,647
NEW YORK
635
00:48:20,940 --> 00:48:25,821
“The Allies cannot treat this war
636
00:48:25,903 --> 00:48:31,330
only from a purely military,
strategic standpoint.
637
00:48:37,581 --> 00:48:39,675
They will win the war
638
00:48:41,669 --> 00:48:44,297
if they take such an attitude,
639
00:48:45,881 --> 00:48:48,475
but what good will it do to us?
640
00:48:50,803 --> 00:48:54,182
We will not survive this war.
641
00:49:02,314 --> 00:49:07,616
The Allied governments
cannot take such a stand.
642
00:49:12,533 --> 00:49:15,503
We contributed to humanity.
643
00:49:15,995 --> 00:49:21,718
We gave scientists for thousands of years.
644
00:49:23,419 --> 00:49:26,423
We originated great religions.
645
00:49:28,841 --> 00:49:30,889
We are humans.
646
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,019
Do you understand it?
Do you understand it?
647
00:49:37,057 --> 00:49:42,689
It never happened before in history,
what is happening to our people now.
648
00:49:43,022 --> 00:49:47,072
Perhaps it will shake
the conscience of the world.
649
00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:59,414
We understand
we have no country of our own.
650
00:50:00,831 --> 00:50:02,925
We have no government.
651
00:50:04,418 --> 00:50:08,594
We have no voice in the Allied councils,
652
00:50:10,466 --> 00:50:12,764
so we have to use services,
653
00:50:12,843 --> 00:50:15,096
little people like you are.
654
00:50:17,014 --> 00:50:19,767
Will you do it?
Will you approach them?
655
00:50:21,101 --> 00:50:24,947
Will you fulfill your mission,
656
00:50:29,276 --> 00:50:31,779
approach the Allied leaders?”
657
00:50:32,446 --> 00:50:34,448
WASHINGTON
658
00:50:35,324 --> 00:50:41,297
“We want an official declaration
659
00:50:51,632 --> 00:50:54,511
of the Allied nations
660
00:50:56,804 --> 00:50:59,273
that, in addition
661
00:51:04,478 --> 00:51:07,402
to the military strategy
662
00:51:09,316 --> 00:51:13,071
which aims at securing victory,
663
00:51:14,655 --> 00:51:17,579
military victory in this war,
664
00:51:21,370 --> 00:51:25,841
extermination of the Jews
665
00:51:26,709 --> 00:51:29,679
forms a separate chapter,
666
00:51:32,548 --> 00:51:35,472
and the Allied nations
667
00:51:36,844 --> 00:51:41,270
formally, publicly announce
668
00:51:46,145 --> 00:51:49,024
that they will deal with this problem,
669
00:51:49,898 --> 00:51:53,869
that it becomes a part!
670
00:51:55,362 --> 00:52:01,040
of their overall strategy in this war.
671
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,799
Not only defeat of Germany,
672
00:52:09,293 --> 00:52:15,426
but also saving
the remaining Jewish population.
673
00:52:24,058 --> 00:52:27,733
Once they make such an official declaration...
674
00:52:30,064 --> 00:52:32,237
They have an air force.
675
00:52:34,568 --> 00:52:37,412
They drop bombs on Germany,
676
00:52:38,572 --> 00:52:42,042
why cannot they drop millions of leaflets
677
00:52:45,746 --> 00:52:49,171
informing the German population
678
00:52:49,416 --> 00:52:53,842
exactly what their government
is doing to the Jews?
679
00:52:54,088 --> 00:52:56,182
Perhaps they don't know it!
680
00:53:00,427 --> 00:53:05,274
Now, let them make official declaration,
681
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:08,569
again, official, public declaration
682
00:53:09,478 --> 00:53:14,826
that, if the German nation
does not offer evidence
683
00:53:16,318 --> 00:53:20,243
of trying to change the policy
of their government,
684
00:53:20,322 --> 00:53:24,919
German nation
will have to be held responsible
685
00:53:25,536 --> 00:53:28,460
for the crimes
their government is committing.
686
00:53:28,539 --> 00:53:33,466
And now, if there are not such an evidence,
687
00:53:35,546 --> 00:53:40,052
to announce publicly, officially,
688
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:45,060
certain objects in Germany
689
00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:48,984
will be bombed, destroyed,
690
00:53:51,645 --> 00:53:54,489
as a retaliation
691
00:53:54,565 --> 00:54:00,914
for what the German government
is doing against the Jews.
692
00:54:01,572 --> 00:54:04,997
That bombing which will take place
693
00:54:05,075 --> 00:54:08,500
is not a part of the military strategy.
694
00:54:08,996 --> 00:54:12,216
It deals only with the Jewish problem.
695
00:54:12,291 --> 00:54:17,639
Let the German people know
before bombing takes place
696
00:54:17,838 --> 00:54:20,682
and after bombing takes place
697
00:54:20,758 --> 00:54:24,979
that this was done
and will continue to be done
698
00:54:25,554 --> 00:54:30,105
because Jews are being
exterminated in Poland.
699
00:54:30,184 --> 00:54:32,186
Perhaps it will help.
700
00:54:33,979 --> 00:54:35,526
They can do it.
701
00:54:35,606 --> 00:54:37,700
This, they can do it.”
702
00:54:41,153 --> 00:54:44,123
THE RUHR
703
00:54:57,294 --> 00:54:59,717
This was one mission.
704
00:55:00,672 --> 00:55:02,015
Next,
705
00:55:05,552 --> 00:55:07,554
both of them,
706
00:55:11,350 --> 00:55:14,570
particularly the Zionist leader...
707
00:55:17,189 --> 00:55:20,614
He was again, like,
whispering, hissing to me.
708
00:55:27,241 --> 00:55:29,585
“Something is going to happen.
709
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:45,927
The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto
are talking about it.
710
00:55:48,762 --> 00:55:51,606
Particularly young elements,
711
00:56:00,148 --> 00:56:02,071
they will fight.
712
00:56:13,495 --> 00:56:20,379
They speak about declaration
of war against the Third Reich,
713
00:56:24,506 --> 00:56:27,225
unique war in the world history.
714
00:56:34,016 --> 00:56:36,565
Never such a war took place.
715
00:56:41,648 --> 00:56:46,245
They want to die fighting.
716
00:56:48,947 --> 00:56:53,874
We cannot deny them this kind of death.”
717
00:57:04,129 --> 00:57:10,432
By the way, I didn't know at that time
Jewish military organization emerged.
718
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:13,313
They didn't tell me about it,
719
00:57:13,388 --> 00:57:17,484
only that, “Something is going to happen.
720
00:57:21,438 --> 00:57:24,442
The Jews will fight.
721
00:57:26,693 --> 00:57:28,570
They need arms.
722
00:57:31,323 --> 00:57:38,207
We approached the commander
of the Home Army,
723
00:57:38,497 --> 00:57:42,127
the underground movement in Poland.
724
00:57:44,294 --> 00:57:47,764
Those arms were denied, refused.
725
00:57:49,299 --> 00:57:51,552
They cannot be denied arms
726
00:57:52,302 --> 00:57:54,020
if such arms exist,
727
00:57:54,096 --> 00:57:56,815
and we know you have arms.”
728
00:58:00,894 --> 00:58:07,072
This message to the commander
in chief, General Sikorski,
729
00:58:07,776 --> 00:58:09,904
to issue orders
730
00:58:10,862 --> 00:58:15,242
that those arms will be given to the Jews.
731
00:58:48,567 --> 00:58:51,662
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
732
00:59:56,635 --> 00:59:59,639
This was another part of the mission.
733
01:00:01,348 --> 01:00:04,602
“There are international Jewish leaders.
734
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:09,113
Reach as many as possible.
735
01:00:09,189 --> 01:00:11,066
Tell them this:
736
01:00:13,610 --> 01:00:15,783
They are Jewish leaders.
737
01:00:17,155 --> 01:00:19,533
Their people are dying.
738
01:00:20,408 --> 01:00:22,456
There will be no Jews,
739
01:00:24,663 --> 01:00:27,132
so what for do we need leaders?
740
01:00:27,833 --> 01:00:30,177
We are going to die as well.
741
01:00:30,877 --> 01:00:34,381
We don't try to escape.
We stay here.
742
01:00:42,722 --> 01:00:44,690
Let them go
743
01:00:47,018 --> 01:00:49,066
to important offices
744
01:00:50,438 --> 01:00:53,112
in London, wherever they are.
745
01:00:54,401 --> 01:00:57,371
Let them demand for action.
746
01:00:59,406 --> 01:01:01,283
If it is refused,
747
01:01:03,368 --> 01:01:05,837
let them walk out,
748
01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:08,586
stay in the street,
749
01:01:09,791 --> 01:01:11,418
refuse food,
750
01:01:13,503 --> 01:01:15,301
refuse drink.
751
01:01:17,257 --> 01:01:18,975
Let them die
752
01:01:20,468 --> 01:01:23,187
in view of all humanity.
753
01:01:24,931 --> 01:01:29,687
Who knows? Perhaps it will shake
the conscience of the world.”
754
01:02:19,444 --> 01:02:22,994
Between those two Jewish leaders,
755
01:02:24,866 --> 01:02:29,292
somehow...
and this belongs to human relations...
756
01:02:29,871 --> 01:02:34,502
I took, so to say, to the Bund leader,
757
01:02:37,212 --> 01:02:39,635
probably because of his behavior.
758
01:02:39,714 --> 01:02:42,718
He looked like a Polish nobleman,
759
01:02:42,801 --> 01:02:45,270
a gentleman, straight,
760
01:02:45,345 --> 01:02:49,020
beautiful gestures, dignified.
761
01:02:49,474 --> 01:02:53,729
I think that he liked me, also personally.
762
01:02:55,188 --> 01:03:00,445
Now, at a certain point, he suggested it.
763
01:03:01,111 --> 01:03:04,741
He says, “Mr. Witold,
764
01:03:07,367 --> 01:03:10,496
I know the Western world.
765
01:03:11,997 --> 01:03:17,003
You are going to deal with the English.
766
01:03:18,503 --> 01:03:24,055
Now, you will give them your oral reports.
767
01:03:25,343 --> 01:03:30,270
I am sure it will strengthen your report
768
01:03:30,557 --> 01:03:36,235
if you will be able to say,
'I saw it myself.”'
769
01:03:36,896 --> 01:03:39,900
WARSAW
770
01:03:41,192 --> 01:03:46,915
“We can organize for you
to visit the Jewish ghetto.
771
01:03:50,618 --> 01:03:52,871
Would you do it?
772
01:03:53,246 --> 01:03:54,919
If you do,
773
01:03:55,123 --> 01:03:59,549
to the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw,
I will go with you,
774
01:04:02,756 --> 01:04:04,929
so I will be sure
775
01:04:05,633 --> 01:04:08,432
that you will be as safe as possible.”
776
01:04:11,931 --> 01:04:16,357
A few days later,
we established contact.
777
01:04:19,439 --> 01:04:21,032
By that time,
778
01:04:21,107 --> 01:04:28,662
Jewish ghetto,
as it existed in 1942 until July,
779
01:04:29,699 --> 01:04:32,077
did not exist anymore.
780
01:04:33,578 --> 01:04:37,708
Out of approximately 400,000 Jews,
781
01:04:38,708 --> 01:04:43,635
in the meantime, some 300,000
were already deported from the ghetto.
782
01:04:51,971 --> 01:04:55,441
So within the outside walls,
783
01:04:56,476 --> 01:04:59,855
practically, there were some four units.
784
01:05:01,398 --> 01:05:05,699
The most important was
the so-called “central ghetto.”
785
01:05:06,820 --> 01:05:11,121
They were separated by some areas
inhabited by the Aryans,
786
01:05:11,199 --> 01:05:15,670
already some areas
not inhabited by anybody.
787
01:05:17,330 --> 01:05:19,128
There was some building.
788
01:05:22,961 --> 01:05:26,215
This building was constructed
in such a way
789
01:05:26,297 --> 01:05:32,475
that the wall which separated
the ghetto from the outside world
790
01:05:32,554 --> 01:05:36,104
was a part of the back of the building.
791
01:05:38,017 --> 01:05:41,897
So the front was facing the Aryan area.
792
01:05:47,735 --> 01:05:50,113
There was some tunnel.
793
01:05:52,323 --> 01:05:57,545
We went through this tunnel
without any kind of difficulties.
794
01:06:06,504 --> 01:06:10,429
What struck me:
completely different man,
795
01:06:11,801 --> 01:06:13,348
the Bund leader,
796
01:06:13,928 --> 01:06:16,056
the Polish nobleman.
797
01:06:16,806 --> 01:06:19,355
I go with him.
798
01:06:21,686 --> 01:06:25,782
He is broken down,
799
01:06:26,733 --> 01:06:31,580
curving, like a Jew from the ghetto,
800
01:06:32,071 --> 01:06:35,075
as if he lived there all the time.
801
01:06:35,909 --> 01:06:39,004
Apparently, this was his nature.
802
01:06:40,580 --> 01:06:43,083
This was his world.
803
01:06:51,674 --> 01:06:54,018
So we walked the streets.
804
01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:56,141
He was on my left.
805
01:06:57,972 --> 01:06:59,645
We didn't talk very much.
806
01:06:59,724 --> 01:07:01,522
He led me.
807
01:07:05,313 --> 01:07:08,943
Well, so what?
So now comes the description of it, yes?
808
01:07:21,037 --> 01:07:22,539
Well.
809
01:07:26,459 --> 01:07:29,303
Naked bodies on the street.
810
01:07:33,383 --> 01:07:37,889
I ask him, “Why are they here?”
811
01:07:37,971 --> 01:07:40,565
- Corpses, you mean?
- Corpses.
812
01:07:41,474 --> 01:07:44,023
He says, “Well, they have a problem.
813
01:07:45,186 --> 01:07:47,735
If J... a Jew dies,
814
01:07:48,231 --> 01:07:52,236
and the family wants some burial,
815
01:07:52,485 --> 01:07:55,204
they have to pay tax on it,
816
01:07:57,532 --> 01:08:00,536
so they just throw them in the street.”
817
01:08:00,618 --> 01:08:03,542
- Because they cannot pay the tax?
- Yeah.
818
01:08:04,414 --> 01:08:06,257
They cannot afford it.
819
01:08:06,332 --> 01:08:10,963
So then they say, “Every rag counts,”
820
01:08:11,421 --> 01:08:14,015
so they take their clothing.
821
01:08:14,632 --> 01:08:19,229
And then, once the body,
the corpse, is on the street,
822
01:08:19,637 --> 01:08:22,811
the Judenrat has to take care of it.
823
01:08:25,393 --> 01:08:28,897
Women with their babies,
824
01:08:29,355 --> 01:08:32,199
publicly feeding their babies,
825
01:08:33,818 --> 01:08:36,287
but they have no... no breast.
826
01:08:36,362 --> 01:08:38,205
It's just flat.
827
01:08:38,406 --> 01:08:42,081
Babies with some crazy eyes, looking.
828
01:08:46,956 --> 01:08:50,631
Did it look like a complete strange world?
829
01:08:50,710 --> 01:08:54,135
- What?
- It was a world, I mean.
830
01:08:56,341 --> 01:08:57,809
No, it was not a world.
831
01:08:57,884 --> 01:09:00,307
That... That was not humanity.
832
01:09:01,095 --> 01:09:03,063
Streets full.
833
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:04,732
Full.
834
01:09:05,391 --> 01:09:08,611
Apparently, all of them lived in the street.
835
01:09:09,646 --> 01:09:13,150
Exchange what...
what was the most important.
836
01:09:13,232 --> 01:09:17,078
Everybody offering something to sell.
837
01:09:19,197 --> 01:09:20,870
“Three onions.”
838
01:09:21,282 --> 01:09:24,126
“Buy onions.” “Some cookies?”
839
01:09:25,078 --> 01:09:26,751
Selling.
840
01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:29,840
Begging each other.
841
01:09:31,834 --> 01:09:34,428
Crying, “I am hungry.”
842
01:09:37,382 --> 01:09:39,805
Those horrible children.
843
01:09:41,469 --> 01:09:44,769
Some children running by themselves,
844
01:09:46,432 --> 01:09:49,436
or with their mothers, sitting.
845
01:09:58,444 --> 01:10:00,788
It wasn't humanity.
846
01:10:01,489 --> 01:10:05,084
It was some... some... some hell.
847
01:10:06,035 --> 01:10:07,412
Now,
848
01:10:08,871 --> 01:10:11,090
this part of the ghetto,
849
01:10:12,750 --> 01:10:17,506
German officers were there,
in the central ghetto.
850
01:10:18,673 --> 01:10:23,645
If Gestapo released somebody,
and the Gestapo officers,
851
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:27,896
they had to pass
through the ghetto to get out of it.
852
01:10:28,391 --> 01:10:32,191
So there were also Germans,
German traffic.
853
01:10:33,229 --> 01:10:36,733
Now, the Germans in uniform,
854
01:10:38,151 --> 01:10:39,903
they were walking.
855
01:10:39,986 --> 01:10:41,613
Silence.
856
01:10:42,488 --> 01:10:46,209
Everybody frozen until he passed.
857
01:10:47,118 --> 01:10:51,373
No movement, no begging, nothing.
858
01:10:51,998 --> 01:10:53,716
Germans.
859
01:10:55,293 --> 01:10:57,170
Contempt.
860
01:10:58,588 --> 01:11:03,264
“This is those”... apparently...
“dirty subhuman.”
861
01:11:04,927 --> 01:11:07,521
“They are not human, this.”
862
01:11:09,390 --> 01:11:11,609
Now, at a certain point,
863
01:11:14,145 --> 01:11:16,864
some movement starts.
864
01:11:18,357 --> 01:11:22,282
Jews are running from the street I was on.
865
01:11:25,448 --> 01:11:28,292
We jumped into some house.
866
01:11:29,869 --> 01:11:31,917
He just hits the door.
867
01:11:31,996 --> 01:11:33,748
“Open the door! Open the door!”
868
01:11:33,831 --> 01:11:36,835
They opened the door.
We moved in.
869
01:11:36,918 --> 01:11:41,219
Windows go... give
to the back of the street.
870
01:11:42,048 --> 01:11:43,800
We go to the opposite.
871
01:11:43,883 --> 01:11:46,762
In the door.
Some woman opened the door.
872
01:11:46,844 --> 01:11:49,313
He says, “All right, all right.
Don't be afraid.
873
01:11:49,388 --> 01:11:50,935
We are Jews.”
874
01:11:51,682 --> 01:11:53,810
He pushes me to the window.
875
01:11:53,893 --> 01:11:56,396
“Now look at it. Look at it.”
876
01:12:00,233 --> 01:12:01,951
[ Sighs ]
877
01:12:03,236 --> 01:12:05,284
There were two boys,
878
01:12:07,824 --> 01:12:09,997
nice-looking boys,
879
01:12:11,077 --> 01:12:14,581
Hitler-Jugend unfiorms.
880
01:12:16,707 --> 01:12:18,425
They walked.
881
01:12:20,419 --> 01:12:23,764
Every step they made, Jews disappearing,
882
01:12:24,590 --> 01:12:26,342
running away.
883
01:12:28,386 --> 01:12:30,639
They were talking to each other.
884
01:12:31,806 --> 01:12:33,854
At a certain point,
885
01:12:34,517 --> 01:12:38,021
a boy gets into his pocket,
886
01:12:38,771 --> 01:12:40,819
without even thinking,
887
01:12:43,150 --> 01:12:44,493
shoots.
888
01:12:45,069 --> 01:12:46,787
Some, “Aaah!”
889
01:12:46,863 --> 01:12:48,740
Some broken glass.
890
01:12:48,823 --> 01:12:52,327
Some shouting, “Aaah!”
891
01:12:54,537 --> 01:12:58,292
The other boy says something,
congratulating him.
892
01:13:00,084 --> 01:13:01,927
They go back.
893
01:13:03,838 --> 01:13:06,216
So I was paralyzed.
894
01:13:06,299 --> 01:13:08,267
[Gasping 1
895
01:13:12,305 --> 01:13:14,228
[Sobbing ]
896
01:13:19,687 --> 01:13:22,361
So then the Jewish woman...
897
01:13:23,316 --> 01:13:27,162
Probably she recognized me...
I don't know... that I am not a Jew.
898
01:13:28,321 --> 01:13:32,076
She embraced me.
“Go, go. It doesn't do you any good.
899
01:13:32,158 --> 01:13:34,035
Go, go.”
900
01:13:34,869 --> 01:13:36,917
So we left the house.
901
01:13:40,499 --> 01:13:42,501
Then we left the ghetto.
902
01:13:46,547 --> 01:13:50,677
So then he said, “You didn't see everything.
You didn't see too much.
903
01:13:51,677 --> 01:13:55,022
Would you like to go again?
I will go with you.
904
01:13:56,057 --> 01:13:58,276
I want you to see everything.”
905
01:13:59,685 --> 01:14:01,187
“I will.”
906
01:14:03,147 --> 01:14:04,945
Next day, we went again.
907
01:14:05,024 --> 01:14:09,074
The same house, the same way.
908
01:14:11,364 --> 01:14:14,868
So then, again,
now I was more conditioned,
909
01:14:16,535 --> 01:14:18,879
so I felt the other things.
910
01:14:19,622 --> 01:14:22,751
Stench.
911
01:14:23,209 --> 01:14:25,553
Dirt, stench.
912
01:14:27,546 --> 01:14:30,049
Everywhere. Suffocating.
913
01:14:32,593 --> 01:14:35,312
Dirty streets.
914
01:14:36,931 --> 01:14:39,810
Nervousness. Tension.
915
01:14:41,894 --> 01:14:43,862
Some bedlam.
916
01:14:45,898 --> 01:14:48,651
This was Platz Muranowski.
917
01:14:49,402 --> 01:14:51,279
In a corner of it,
918
01:14:52,571 --> 01:14:58,999
some children playing
something with some rags.
919
01:14:59,078 --> 01:15:02,082
They're throwing the rags to another.
920
01:15:02,623 --> 01:15:06,753
He says, “They are playing, as you see.
921
01:15:06,836 --> 01:15:09,806
Life goes on. Life goes on.”
922
01:15:11,757 --> 01:15:13,759
So then I said,
923
01:15:16,178 --> 01:15:20,183
“They are simulating playing.
They don't play.”
924
01:15:20,433 --> 01:15:22,481
It was a special place for playing?
925
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:25,439
In the corner of Platz Muranowski.
926
01:15:25,521 --> 01:15:27,569
No, no, no. Open.
927
01:15:28,024 --> 01:15:30,447
As I say, they are...
- There were trees?
928
01:15:31,193 --> 01:15:36,541
There were a few trees, rachitic trees.
929
01:15:37,450 --> 01:15:39,703
So then we just walked the streets.
930
01:15:39,785 --> 01:15:42,288
We didn't talk to anybody.
931
01:15:44,206 --> 01:15:47,050
We walked probably one hour.
932
01:15:48,419 --> 01:15:50,797
Sometimes, he would tell me,
933
01:15:51,505 --> 01:15:54,930
“Look at this Jew,”
934
01:15:55,009 --> 01:15:59,560
a Jew standing, without moving.
935
01:15:59,638 --> 01:16:01,140
[ Indistinct]
936
01:16:06,062 --> 01:16:07,689
I said, “Is he dead?”
937
01:16:07,772 --> 01:16:10,241
He says, “No, no, no. He's alive.
938
01:16:12,693 --> 01:16:17,995
Mr. Witold, remember, he's dying.
939
01:16:18,491 --> 01:16:21,165
He's dying. Look at him.
940
01:16:21,744 --> 01:16:23,838
Tell them over there.
941
01:16:23,913 --> 01:16:25,711
You saw it. Don't forget.”
942
01:16:25,790 --> 01:16:27,713
We walk again.
943
01:16:29,668 --> 01:16:31,670
It's macabre.
944
01:16:33,255 --> 01:16:37,226
Only from time to time,
he would whisper,
945
01:16:37,510 --> 01:16:40,059
“Remember this. Remember this.”
946
01:16:41,514 --> 01:16:46,020
Or he would tell me, “Look at her.”
947
01:16:48,938 --> 01:16:51,032
In very many cases,
948
01:16:51,440 --> 01:16:54,239
I would say,
“What are they doing here?”
949
01:16:54,527 --> 01:16:59,829
His answer: “They are dying.
That's all right. They are dying.”
950
01:17:01,534 --> 01:17:05,255
And always, “But remember, remember.”
951
01:17:06,831 --> 01:17:10,051
We spent more...
perhaps one hour.
952
01:17:10,251 --> 01:17:12,128
We left the ghetto.
953
01:17:12,545 --> 01:17:15,014
Frankly, I couldn't take it anymore.
954
01:17:15,506 --> 01:17:17,429
“Get me out of it.”
955
01:17:20,678 --> 01:17:23,397
And then I never saw him again.
956
01:17:32,314 --> 01:17:34,066
I was sick.
957
01:17:39,905 --> 01:17:43,250
I don't...
Even now, I don't want...
958
01:17:43,450 --> 01:17:46,624
I understand your role.
I am here.
959
01:17:47,246 --> 01:17:50,250
I don't go back in my memory.
960
01:17:54,420 --> 01:17:56,764
I couldn't take any more.
961
01:17:58,090 --> 01:18:03,438
But I reported what I saw.
962
01:18:08,350 --> 01:18:12,355
Yes, it was not a world.
It was not a part of humanity.
963
01:18:12,605 --> 01:18:14,653
I was not part of it.
964
01:18:15,774 --> 01:18:18,368
I did not belong there.
965
01:18:20,779 --> 01:18:23,953
I never saw such things. I never...
966
01:18:24,867 --> 01:18:29,919
Nobody wrote about this kind of reality.
967
01:18:30,122 --> 01:18:33,843
I never saw any theater...
I never saw any movie...
968
01:18:36,587 --> 01:18:38,635
This was not the world.
969
01:18:40,007 --> 01:18:43,853
I was told that these are human beings.
970
01:18:43,928 --> 01:18:47,899
They didn't look like human beings.
971
01:18:52,144 --> 01:18:53,646
Then we left.
972
01:18:53,729 --> 01:18:55,823
He embraced me then.
973
01:18:56,148 --> 01:18:58,116
“Good luck. Good luck.”
974
01:18:58,192 --> 01:19:00,320
I never saw him again.
975
01:19:22,633 --> 01:19:25,386
WARSAW
976
01:19:30,766 --> 01:19:36,864
Next figure: Dr FRANZ GRASSLER,
deputy to Auerswald,
977
01:19:38,357 --> 01:19:44,706
the Nazi Commissioner
of the Warsaw ghetto
978
01:20:13,559 --> 01:20:18,030
[ Lanzmann, In German]
You don't remember those days?
979
01:20:20,774 --> 01:20:22,526
[ Grassier, In German]
Not much.
980
01:20:24,278 --> 01:20:27,999
I recall more clearly
my pre-war mountaineering trips
981
01:20:28,073 --> 01:20:30,201
than the entire war period
982
01:20:30,284 --> 01:20:33,003
and those days in Warsaw.
983
01:20:36,749 --> 01:20:41,175
All in all, those were bad times.
984
01:20:44,381 --> 01:20:47,351
It's a fact: we tend to forget,
985
01:20:48,010 --> 01:20:49,637
thank God,
986
01:20:50,012 --> 01:20:52,811
the bad times
more easily than the good.
987
01:20:58,062 --> 01:21:00,861
The bad times are repressed.
988
01:21:06,945 --> 01:21:10,165
[ Lanzmann ]
I'll help you remember...
989
01:21:15,204 --> 01:21:21,132
In Warsaw,
you were Dr. Auerswald's deputy.
990
01:21:22,252 --> 01:21:23,595
[ Grassier ]
Yes.
991
01:21:26,298 --> 01:21:28,300
[ Lanzmann ]
Dr. Auerswald was...
992
01:21:28,384 --> 01:21:31,934
[ Grassier ]
Commissioner of the “Jewish district” of Warsaw.
993
01:21:35,099 --> 01:21:39,149
Dr. Grassier, this is Czerniakow's diary.
994
01:21:39,228 --> 01:21:41,026
You're mentioned in it.
995
01:21:41,105 --> 01:21:43,733
- It's been printed, it exists?
- Ja, ja.
996
01:21:43,816 --> 01:21:47,195
He kept a diary...
- Mm-hmm. Ja.
997
01:21:48,237 --> 01:21:53,209
That was recently published.
998
01:21:56,620 --> 01:22:03,925
He wrote on July 7, 1941
999
01:22:04,378 --> 01:22:05,630
July 7, 1941?
1000
01:22:05,712 --> 01:22:10,218
That's the first time I've relearned a date.
1001
01:22:11,844 --> 01:22:13,938
May I take notes?
1002
01:22:14,179 --> 01:22:18,104
After all... it interests me too.
1003
01:22:19,017 --> 01:22:22,647
So in July I was already there!
1004
01:22:24,481 --> 01:22:28,452
He wrote on July 7, 1941,
1005
01:22:29,570 --> 01:22:34,622
“Morning in the Community”
- the Jewish Council HQ -
1006
01:22:34,700 --> 01:22:35,917
Ja, fa. Ja.
1007
01:22:35,993 --> 01:22:39,964
“and later with Auerswald, Schlosser...”
1008
01:22:40,956 --> 01:22:42,173
Schlosser was...
1009
01:22:42,249 --> 01:22:44,297
- “and Grassier”...
- Ja.
1010
01:22:46,962 --> 01:22:49,966
“On routine matters.”
1011
01:22:50,424 --> 01:22:52,768
That's the first time...
1012
01:22:52,843 --> 01:22:55,062
- That my name is mentioned...
- Ja, ja.
1013
01:22:55,137 --> 01:22:57,481
Yes, but there were 3 of us.
1014
01:22:57,556 --> 01:23:01,311
Schlosser... was in...
the “economic department.”
1015
01:23:01,393 --> 01:23:05,068
I think he had to do with economics.
- Ja. Ja, ja.
1016
01:23:06,440 --> 01:23:10,536
And the second time
1017
01:23:11,695 --> 01:23:15,370
was on July 22.
1018
01:23:16,492 --> 01:23:21,794
Czerniakow was president
of the Warsaw Jewish Council
1019
01:23:22,706 --> 01:23:25,334
- He wrote every day?
- Yes.
1020
01:23:25,417 --> 01:23:27,385
- Ja? Mm-hmm?
- Yes, every day.
1021
01:23:27,461 --> 01:23:31,932
- [ Repeats Phrase]
- it's quite amazing...
1022
01:23:33,091 --> 01:23:35,310
That the diary was saved.
1023
01:23:35,886 --> 01:23:39,015
It's amazing that it was saved.
1024
01:23:44,394 --> 01:23:48,649
BURLINGTON - VERMONT (USA)
1025
01:23:49,149 --> 01:23:55,122
[ Hilberg, In English]
Adam Czerniakow began keeping a diary
1026
01:23:56,406 --> 01:23:59,034
the very first week of the war,
1027
01:24:00,827 --> 01:24:03,376
before the Germans entered Warsaw,
1028
01:24:04,164 --> 01:24:08,965
and before he took over the responsibility
of leading the Jewish community,
1029
01:24:11,588 --> 01:24:17,516
and kept his diary in daily entries
1030
01:24:18,512 --> 01:24:23,769
until the afternoon of the day
that he ended his life.
1031
01:24:29,523 --> 01:24:31,946
He left us a window
1032
01:24:33,527 --> 01:24:36,952
through which we can observe
a Jewish community
1033
01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:40,125
in the terminal hours of its life.
1034
01:24:40,993 --> 01:24:45,294
A dying community,
for it began dying from the beginning.
1035
01:24:46,540 --> 01:24:48,213
RAUL HILBERG
1036
01:24:48,292 --> 01:24:51,341
And, in that sense,
1037
01:24:52,504 --> 01:24:57,556
Adam Czerniakow, urn,
did something very important.
1038
01:24:58,218 --> 01:24:59,936
He didn't save the Jews.
1039
01:25:00,012 --> 01:25:02,982
In that respect,
he was like other Jewish leaders.
1040
01:25:04,933 --> 01:25:09,439
But he left a record
of what had happened to them
1041
01:25:10,397 --> 01:25:12,650
in a day-by-day fashion.
1042
01:25:14,484 --> 01:25:16,828
And you could see that he did all this
1043
01:25:17,613 --> 01:25:20,207
on top of working a seven-day week,
1044
01:25:20,991 --> 01:25:23,494
for he was a man without vacations,
1045
01:25:23,577 --> 01:25:25,625
without any day off.
1046
01:25:26,788 --> 01:25:28,381
And yet every day,
1047
01:25:28,457 --> 01:25:30,300
almost every day,
1048
01:25:30,626 --> 01:25:32,378
he had an entry.
1049
01:25:32,878 --> 01:25:35,097
He might record the weather,
1050
01:25:35,339 --> 01:25:37,558
where he went in the morning,
1051
01:25:38,050 --> 01:25:40,269
and then all the things that happened,
1052
01:25:40,344 --> 01:25:42,517
but he never failed to write.
1053
01:25:44,181 --> 01:25:49,688
That was something
that moved him, pushed him,
1054
01:25:49,770 --> 01:25:53,365
compelled him throughout the years,
1055
01:25:53,732 --> 01:25:58,989
almost three years of his life
under the Germans.
1056
01:26:01,531 --> 01:26:03,499
And, in that sense, uh,
1057
01:26:03,575 --> 01:26:09,253
perhaps because he wrote
in such a prosaic style,
1058
01:26:11,083 --> 01:26:16,260
we now know what went on in his mind,
1059
01:26:17,547 --> 01:26:19,766
how things were perceived,
1060
01:26:20,092 --> 01:26:23,221
recognized, reacted to.
1061
01:26:23,929 --> 01:26:26,307
We even know from what he didn't say
1062
01:26:29,851 --> 01:26:33,901
just what it is that
went through this community.
1063
01:26:46,660 --> 01:26:51,882
There are constant references in the diary
1064
01:26:52,916 --> 01:26:54,589
to the end.
1065
01:27:00,465 --> 01:27:04,345
He talks in terms of Greek mythology,
1066
01:27:04,594 --> 01:27:09,145
and he refers to himself
as wearing a poisoned cloak,
1067
01:27:10,475 --> 01:27:12,648
as Hercules once did.
1068
01:27:19,901 --> 01:27:24,657
He has, um, a feeling of doom
1069
01:27:25,407 --> 01:27:27,660
for the Jews of Warsaw.
1070
01:27:32,414 --> 01:27:37,511
And there are remarkable passages
in the diary that illustrate what he meant.
1071
01:27:44,217 --> 01:27:47,016
He is, uh, sarcastic enough,
if that is the word,
1072
01:27:47,095 --> 01:27:51,851
in December 1941, to remark
that now the intelligentsia were dying also.
1073
01:27:51,933 --> 01:27:53,731
Up to this point,
poor people were dying,
1074
01:27:53,810 --> 01:27:59,032
but, by December 1941, members
of the intelligentsia were starving to death.
1075
01:27:59,441 --> 01:28:00,533
And he even has...
1076
01:28:00,609 --> 01:28:04,489
[ Lanzmann ] Why does he mention
specifically the intelligentsia at this time?
1077
01:28:04,780 --> 01:28:07,124
He mentions it
because there is a difference,
1078
01:28:07,199 --> 01:28:09,873
owing to the class structure
within the ghetto,
1079
01:28:10,118 --> 01:28:12,166
in vulnerability to starvation.
1080
01:28:12,245 --> 01:28:16,295
The lower classes died first.
The middle class died a little bit later.
1081
01:28:16,374 --> 01:28:19,344
Intelligentsia were, of course,
at the top of the middle class,
1082
01:28:19,419 --> 01:28:23,469
and once they started dying,
the situation was really very, very bad.
1083
01:28:24,758 --> 01:28:27,056
And that's the meaning of that.
1084
01:28:27,385 --> 01:28:32,016
Now we're dealing with a ghetto where the average
consumption was about 1,200 calories, you see.
1085
01:28:32,933 --> 01:28:37,279
He mentions with...
with approval, with approval, uh,
1086
01:28:37,562 --> 01:28:40,406
that one petitioner came to him for money
1087
01:28:41,316 --> 01:28:43,364
and said, “I want money,
1088
01:28:44,069 --> 01:28:46,163
not in order to eat.
1089
01:28:46,238 --> 01:28:48,991
I want money for the rent,
1090
01:28:49,658 --> 01:28:51,911
to pay the rent for my apartment,
1091
01:28:51,993 --> 01:28:55,418
because I don't want to die in the street.”
1092
01:28:56,373 --> 01:29:00,219
This is the kind of comment
that Czerniakow writes down in his diary.
1093
01:29:01,545 --> 01:29:05,140
This meaning of dignity,
1094
01:29:05,924 --> 01:29:07,722
the approval of the...
1095
01:29:07,801 --> 01:29:10,645
You mean he received
a petition from somebody...
1096
01:29:11,263 --> 01:29:12,810
- Yes.
- who said, “Give me money”?
1097
01:29:12,889 --> 01:29:14,937
Yes, but not for food.
1098
01:29:15,183 --> 01:29:17,936
“Give me money so that I can pay the rent,
1099
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:20,443
because I don't want to die in the street.”
1100
01:29:20,522 --> 01:29:23,116
There were people
dropping dead in the street.
1101
01:29:24,276 --> 01:29:25,778
They were covered with newspaper.
1102
01:29:25,861 --> 01:29:29,206
Why was the housing
more important to him than the food?
1103
01:29:29,281 --> 01:29:31,283
To this particular individual,
1104
01:29:31,616 --> 01:29:33,994
who wasn't eating enough to remain alive,
1105
01:29:34,077 --> 01:29:38,298
who didn't want to be dying of hunger
while collapsing in the street.
1106
01:29:38,373 --> 01:29:41,377
This means that death was not avoidable,
1107
01:29:41,459 --> 01:29:43,632
but it was avoidable...
- Death was not...
1108
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:46,890
- to die either inside or outside?
- To die... Well, of course. Of course.
1109
01:29:46,965 --> 01:29:50,720
It is a... It is a...
one of these sardonic jokes,
1110
01:29:50,802 --> 01:29:53,021
of which he had quite a few.
1111
01:29:53,096 --> 01:29:54,814
He always had the...
1112
01:29:55,307 --> 01:29:58,311
strange, strange description
1113
01:29:58,393 --> 01:30:01,442
of a band playing
in front of a funeral parlor,
1114
01:30:01,521 --> 01:30:03,944
of a hearse with drunken drivers,
1115
01:30:04,024 --> 01:30:08,575
and a dead child
running around the grounds.
1116
01:30:08,653 --> 01:30:12,203
He had... He had rather
sardonic comments about death.
1117
01:30:12,282 --> 01:30:14,000
He lived with death.
1118
01:30:20,123 --> 01:30:22,217
[ Pages Turning ]
1119
01:30:26,755 --> 01:30:29,224
[ Lanzmann, In German]
Did you go into the ghetto?
1120
01:30:29,799 --> 01:30:34,521
Seldom. When I had to visit Czerniakow.
1121
01:30:34,596 --> 01:30:37,896
What were the conditions like?
1122
01:30:37,974 --> 01:30:39,601
Awful.
1123
01:30:39,684 --> 01:30:42,528
Yes a ' Ppall' ' Yes? mg
1124
01:30:42,604 --> 01:30:47,906
I never went back
when I saw what it was like.
1125
01:30:47,984 --> 01:30:49,907
Unless I had to.
1126
01:30:49,986 --> 01:30:57,746
In the whole period
I think I only went once or twice.
1127
01:30:57,827 --> 01:31:01,877
We, at the Commission, tried
1128
01:31:02,123 --> 01:31:06,128
to maintain the ghetto
for its labor force,
1129
01:31:06,211 --> 01:31:11,217
and especially
to prevent epidemic, like typhus.
1130
01:31:11,299 --> 01:31:13,176
That was the big danger.
1131
01:31:18,515 --> 01:31:20,313
- Yes.
- Yes?
1132
01:31:20,558 --> 01:31:24,153
Can you tell us about typhus?
1133
01:31:25,939 --> 01:31:27,816
I'm not a doctor.
1134
01:31:27,899 --> 01:31:33,121
I only know that typhus
is a very dangerous epidemic
1135
01:31:33,196 --> 01:31:38,043
that wipes people out like the plague,
1136
01:31:38,118 --> 01:31:41,122
and that it can't be confined to a ghetto.
1137
01:31:41,204 --> 01:31:44,174
If typhus had broken out...
1138
01:31:44,249 --> 01:31:45,842
I don't think it did,
1139
01:31:45,917 --> 01:31:48,670
but there was fear that it might...
1140
01:31:48,753 --> 01:31:51,677
it would have killed
the Poles and the Germans.
1141
01:31:51,756 --> 01:31:55,351
Why was there typhus in the ghetto?
1142
01:31:55,844 --> 01:31:57,346
I don't know if there was,
1143
01:31:57,429 --> 01:32:01,809
but there was a danger,
because of the famine.
1144
01:32:01,891 --> 01:32:04,861
People didn't get enough to eat.
1145
01:32:05,145 --> 01:32:09,946
That's what was so awful.
1146
01:32:10,025 --> 01:32:14,826
We, at the Commission,
1147
01:32:14,904 --> 01:32:18,784
did our best to feed the ghetto,
1148
01:32:18,867 --> 01:32:26,001
so it wouldn't become
an incubator of epidemics.
1149
01:32:26,082 --> 01:32:31,384
Aside from humanitarian factors,
that's what mattered.
1150
01:32:31,838 --> 01:32:36,844
If typhus had broken out...
and it didn't...
1151
01:32:36,926 --> 01:32:40,556
it wouldn't have stopped at the ghetto.
1152
01:32:41,097 --> 01:32:45,147
Czerniakow also wrote that
1153
01:32:45,226 --> 01:32:50,733
one of the reasons
the ghetto was walled in
1154
01:32:51,107 --> 01:32:53,986
was because of this German fear.
1155
01:32:54,402 --> 01:32:56,370
- Yes, absolutely!
- Fear of typhus.
1156
01:32:56,446 --> 01:32:57,663
[ Repeats Phrase]
1157
01:32:57,739 --> 01:33:04,543
He says Germans always
associated Jews with typhus.
1158
01:33:04,621 --> 01:33:05,873
Maybe.
1159
01:33:05,955 --> 01:33:09,459
I'm not sure if there were grounds for it.
1160
01:33:10,376 --> 01:33:15,098
But imagine that mass of people
packed in the ghetto...
1161
01:33:15,173 --> 01:33:19,269
There weren't only the Warsaw Jews,
1162
01:33:19,344 --> 01:33:21,221
but others who came later.
1163
01:33:21,304 --> 01:33:24,934
The danger kept on growing.
1164
01:33:40,532 --> 01:33:44,162
[ Hilberg, In English]
There was a lady somewhere in Warsaw,
1165
01:33:44,953 --> 01:33:47,547
in love with a man.
1166
01:33:48,248 --> 01:33:51,923
And the man was hit,
1167
01:33:53,044 --> 01:33:55,046
grievously wounded,
1168
01:33:55,964 --> 01:33:58,558
with his insides coming out.
1169
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:07,021
This woman stufied the insides back
with her own hands.
1170
01:34:07,767 --> 01:34:11,362
She carried the man
to a first-aid station. He died.
1171
01:34:14,274 --> 01:34:15,821
He was buried in a mass grave.
1172
01:34:15,900 --> 01:34:19,746
She disinterred him and buried him.
1173
01:34:28,037 --> 01:34:31,086
This, to Czerniakow, this simple episode,
1174
01:34:31,166 --> 01:34:34,636
was the ultimate of virtue.
1175
01:34:39,924 --> 01:34:42,097
[ Lanzmann ]
He is never revolted?
1176
01:34:43,428 --> 01:34:46,932
He doesn't bother,
or he doesn't express the revolt.
1177
01:34:47,015 --> 01:34:51,020
He doesn't express the disgust
except with other Jews,
1178
01:34:52,562 --> 01:34:55,862
Jews who either deserted the community
1179
01:34:56,149 --> 01:34:58,277
by emigrating early,
1180
01:34:58,818 --> 01:35:03,415
or Jews who, like Gancwajch,
are collaborating with the Germans.
1181
01:35:05,158 --> 01:35:09,709
And, for the Germans,
he doesn't have words of disgust.
1182
01:35:09,787 --> 01:35:12,757
I think he is beyond such words.
1183
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:19,257
He hasn't any criticism
of the Germans themselves
1184
01:35:19,547 --> 01:35:22,847
and only seldom allows himself
to make a remark
1185
01:35:23,801 --> 01:35:27,601
which indicates that
he opposed something by arguing.
1186
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:29,978
He very seldom argues with the Germans.
1187
01:35:30,058 --> 01:35:33,187
He pleads, he appeals,
but he doesn't argue with them.
1188
01:35:33,269 --> 01:35:37,399
He does argue when he's forced,
not only to build the wall,
1189
01:35:37,482 --> 01:35:39,325
but to pay for it.
1190
01:35:39,943 --> 01:35:44,164
And he says that, if the wall
is being put up as a hygienic measure
1191
01:35:44,239 --> 01:35:49,461
to prevent Jewish epidemics from engulfing
the Polish or German population outside,
1192
01:35:49,535 --> 01:35:51,412
then why is it...
1193
01:35:51,788 --> 01:35:54,667
why is it that the Jews have to pay for it?
1194
01:35:54,874 --> 01:35:57,423
The people who get the protection
should be paying for the medicine.
1195
01:35:57,502 --> 01:36:00,802
If the wall is medicine,
let the Germans pay.
1196
01:36:01,506 --> 01:36:04,760
And Auerswald, the ghetto Kommissar,
says that's a very nice argument
1197
01:36:04,842 --> 01:36:09,268
that he, Czerniakow, might bring up
at an international conference some day,
1198
01:36:09,347 --> 01:36:11,441
but, for now, he'll pay for the wall.
1199
01:36:11,724 --> 01:36:13,897
Czerniakow writes all this down,
1200
01:36:13,977 --> 01:36:18,027
including Auerswald's reply
to his own argument.
1201
01:36:18,356 --> 01:36:23,362
And that's about the most
he ever allows himself to say in criticism
1202
01:36:23,861 --> 01:36:25,909
of what the Germans are doing.
1203
01:36:26,698 --> 01:36:31,374
So he takes for granted,
he assumes, he anticipates
1204
01:36:31,744 --> 01:36:34,964
everything that is happening to the Jews,
1205
01:36:35,039 --> 01:36:36,882
including the worst.
1206
01:36:38,710 --> 01:36:44,888
[ Lanzmann, In German]
The Germans had a policy on the Warsaw ghetto.
1207
01:36:46,926 --> 01:36:49,475
What was that policy?
1208
01:36:51,347 --> 01:36:52,314
Ja.
1209
01:36:52,390 --> 01:36:55,189
You're asking more than I know.
1210
01:36:55,268 --> 01:36:58,818
The policy that wound up
with extermination...
1211
01:36:58,896 --> 01:37:01,240
- Ja.
- the Final Solution...
1212
01:37:01,316 --> 01:37:03,910
we knew nothing about it.
1213
01:37:03,985 --> 01:37:07,080
Our job was to maintain the ghetto,
1214
01:37:07,155 --> 01:37:12,127
and try to preserve
the Jews as a work force.
1215
01:37:12,744 --> 01:37:18,251
The Commission's goal,
1216
01:37:18,333 --> 01:37:20,381
in fact, was very different
1217
01:37:20,460 --> 01:37:25,762
from the one that later
led to extermination.
1218
01:37:26,966 --> 01:37:30,095
Yes, but do you know
how many people died
1219
01:37:30,178 --> 01:37:33,773
in the ghetto each month in 1941?
- Nein.
1220
01:37:33,848 --> 01:37:37,068
I don't know now... if I ever knew it.
1221
01:37:37,143 --> 01:37:41,614
But you did know.
There are exact figures.
1222
01:37:43,358 --> 01:37:44,951
I probably knew...
1223
01:37:45,026 --> 01:37:49,406
Yes: 5,000 a month.
1224
01:37:49,489 --> 01:37:51,992
- 5,000 a month? Yes, well...
- Ja.
1225
01:37:52,075 --> 01:37:54,703
That's a lot.
- That's a lot, of course.
1226
01:37:54,786 --> 01:37:59,587
But there were far too many people
in the ghetto.
1227
01:37:59,665 --> 01:38:02,885
That was it. Far too many.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
1228
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:05,634
Far too many.
1229
01:38:11,928 --> 01:38:14,898
[ Lanzmann ]
My question is philosophical.
1230
01:38:16,057 --> 01:38:19,778
What does a ghetto mean, in your opinion?
1231
01:38:24,273 --> 01:38:29,154
[ Grassier ]
History's full of ghettos,
1232
01:38:29,737 --> 01:38:33,332
going back centuries, for all I know.
1233
01:38:35,493 --> 01:38:38,292
Persecution of the Jews
wasn't a German in vention,
1234
01:38:38,371 --> 01:38:41,921
and it didn't start with World War II.
1235
01:38:44,627 --> 01:38:47,301
The Poles persecuted them too.
1236
01:38:51,634 --> 01:38:54,183
[ Lanzmann ]
But a ghetto like Warsaw's,
1237
01:38:54,262 --> 01:38:56,765
in a great capital,
1238
01:38:57,723 --> 01:38:59,691
in the heart of the city.
1239
01:38:59,934 --> 01:39:02,403
[ Grassier ]
That was unusual.
1240
01:39:10,278 --> 01:39:14,499
You say you wanted to maintain the ghetto.
1241
01:39:14,574 --> 01:39:19,421
Our mission wasn't
to annihilate the ghetto,
1242
01:39:19,495 --> 01:39:22,590
but to keep it alive, to maintain it.
1243
01:39:22,665 --> 01:39:26,545
What does “alive” mean in such...
1244
01:39:26,627 --> 01:39:28,300
- That was the problem.
- Ja.
1245
01:39:28,379 --> 01:39:30,052
That was the whole problem...
1246
01:39:30,131 --> 01:39:33,726
The problem needed to be resolved.
I knew that.
1247
01:39:33,801 --> 01:39:37,305
But people were dying in the streets.
1248
01:39:38,389 --> 01:39:40,812
There were bodies everywhere.
- Yes.
1249
01:39:40,892 --> 01:39:42,769
- Nee?
1250
01:39:43,895 --> 01:39:46,648
That was the paradox.
1251
01:39:46,731 --> 01:39:50,702
- You see it as a paradox?
- I'm sure of it.
1252
01:39:50,776 --> 01:39:52,494
Why?
1253
01:39:53,529 --> 01:39:57,079
Can you explain?
- No.
1254
01:39:57,283 --> 01:39:58,500
Why not?
1255
01:39:58,576 --> 01:40:03,173
Explain what?
1256
01:40:03,247 --> 01:40:06,217
But the fact is...
1257
01:40:06,292 --> 01:40:11,093
Jews were being exterminated
daily in the ghetto.
1258
01:40:11,422 --> 01:40:12,674
Czerniakow wrote...
- Ja. Ja.
1259
01:40:12,757 --> 01:40:15,260
To maintain it properly,
1260
01:40:15,343 --> 01:40:19,143
we'd have needed
more substantial rations,
1261
01:40:19,222 --> 01:40:22,021
and less crowding.
1262
01:40:22,850 --> 01:40:27,447
Why weren't the rations more humane?
1263
01:40:29,690 --> 01:40:31,488
Why weren't they?
1264
01:40:32,276 --> 01:40:35,246
That was a German decision, no?
1265
01:40:35,613 --> 01:40:41,291
There was no real decision
to starve the ghetto.
1266
01:40:41,369 --> 01:40:47,752
The big decision to exterminate
came much later.
1267
01:40:47,959 --> 01:40:51,805
[ Lanzmann]
That's right, later. In 1942.
1268
01:40:52,088 --> 01:40:54,557
- Precisely!
- Ja.
1269
01:40:54,632 --> 01:40:57,385
3 years later.
- Just so.
1270
01:40:57,468 --> 01:41:01,314
Our mission, as I recall it,
1271
01:41:01,389 --> 01:41:06,361
was to manage the ghetto,
1272
01:41:07,353 --> 01:41:13,736
and, naturally,
with those inadequate rations,
1273
01:41:13,818 --> 01:41:16,116
and the overcrowding,
1274
01:41:16,195 --> 01:41:21,326
a high, even excessive death rate
was inevitable.
1275
01:41:21,659 --> 01:41:23,582
- Yes.
- Nee?
1276
01:41:25,913 --> 01:41:31,135
What does “maintain” the ghetto
mean in such conditions...
1277
01:41:31,210 --> 01:41:34,180
the food, sanitation, etc.?
1278
01:41:34,672 --> 01:41:39,223
What could the Jews do
against such measures?
1279
01:41:45,016 --> 01:41:47,394
They couldn't do anything.
1280
01:41:51,147 --> 01:41:55,027
[ Lanzmann, In English]
Czerniakow saw a film before the war
1281
01:41:55,276 --> 01:42:00,954
where the captain of a sinking ship
1282
01:42:01,032 --> 01:42:06,254
gives order to the orchestra to play jazz.
1283
01:42:06,329 --> 01:42:12,007
In the entry of July 8, 1942,
1284
01:42:13,085 --> 01:42:16,464
not even two weeks before his death,
1285
01:42:16,714 --> 01:42:21,345
he identifies himself
to this captain of the sinking ship.
1286
01:42:21,427 --> 01:42:22,474
Yes.
1287
01:42:22,553 --> 01:42:24,100
Of course, there is no jazz,
1288
01:42:24,180 --> 01:42:28,651
but there is a kind of children's festival.
1289
01:42:28,726 --> 01:42:30,194
There are chess tournaments, yes.
1290
01:42:30,269 --> 01:42:32,317
There's theater.
There is a children's festival.
1291
01:42:32,396 --> 01:42:35,195
There's everything going on
until the last moment.
1292
01:42:35,399 --> 01:42:38,323
But, more importantly, these are symbols.
1293
01:42:38,402 --> 01:42:42,407
These outward cultural activities,
these festivals,
1294
01:42:42,823 --> 01:42:46,794
uh, they're not simply
morale-building devices,
1295
01:42:47,036 --> 01:42:50,131
which is what Czerniakow
identifies them to be.
1296
01:42:50,206 --> 01:42:54,837
Rather, they are symbolic
of the entire posture of the ghetto,
1297
01:42:55,127 --> 01:42:59,052
which is in the process of healing,
or trying to heal, sick people
1298
01:42:59,131 --> 01:43:01,429
who are soon going to be gassed,
1299
01:43:01,509 --> 01:43:06,481
which is trying to educate youngsters
who will never be growing up,
1300
01:43:07,014 --> 01:43:11,770
which is in the process of trying to find work
for people and increase employment
1301
01:43:11,852 --> 01:43:14,822
in a situation which is doomed to failure.
1302
01:43:15,398 --> 01:43:19,904
They are going on
as though life will continue.
1303
01:43:19,985 --> 01:43:23,740
They have an official faith
in the survivability of the ghetto,
1304
01:43:23,823 --> 01:43:27,999
even after all indications
are to the contrary.
1305
01:43:28,077 --> 01:43:31,547
The strategy continues to be:
1306
01:43:31,622 --> 01:43:36,173
“We must continue,
for this is the only strategy that is left.
1307
01:43:36,252 --> 01:43:41,224
We must minimize the injury,
minimize the damage, minimize the losses,
1308
01:43:41,298 --> 01:43:42,845
but we must continue.”
1309
01:43:42,925 --> 01:43:48,022
And continuity
is the only thing, in all of this.
1310
01:43:48,097 --> 01:43:53,024
But, obviously, when he compares himself
to this captain of a sinking ship,
1311
01:43:53,102 --> 01:43:56,276
he knows that everything is sinking.
- He knows. He knows.
1312
01:43:56,355 --> 01:44:02,158
I... I think he knew or he sensed
or he believed the end was corning
1313
01:44:02,778 --> 01:44:06,533
perhaps as early as October 1941,
1314
01:44:06,824 --> 01:44:10,670
when he has a note about alarming rumors
1315
01:44:11,120 --> 01:44:14,420
as to the fate of Warsaw Jewry
in the spring.
1316
01:44:14,498 --> 01:44:17,593
This is also when Bischoff,
the head of the Transferstelle, tells him
1317
01:44:17,668 --> 01:44:21,889
that, after all, a ghetto
is only a temporary device,
1318
01:44:22,131 --> 01:44:25,010
without specifying for what.
1319
01:44:25,342 --> 01:44:30,644
He knows, because in January he... he...
he has premonitions or reports and rumors
1320
01:44:30,723 --> 01:44:33,351
about Lithuanians coming.
1321
01:44:33,559 --> 01:44:37,905
He is concerned when Auerswald
disappears and is going to Berlin
1322
01:44:37,980 --> 01:44:40,483
right around January 20, 1942,
1323
01:44:40,566 --> 01:44:44,867
which we now know to have been the date
of the Final Solution Conference in Berlin,
1324
01:44:48,407 --> 01:44:50,705
the Wannsee Conference.
1325
01:44:51,577 --> 01:44:56,174
The Final Solution Conference
was held here
1326
01:44:56,582 --> 01:44:59,335
And even though Czerniakow,
in Warsaw, behind the walls,
1327
01:44:59,418 --> 01:45:02,262
has no idea of such a conference
going on in Berlin,
1328
01:45:02,338 --> 01:45:06,809
yet he is concerned that Auerswald,
the ghetto Komnfvssar, is going to Berlin.
1329
01:45:06,884 --> 01:45:09,228
He can't imagine why,
1330
01:45:10,221 --> 01:45:13,816
unless it is for a purpose
that bodes no good.
1331
01:45:19,063 --> 01:45:22,909
And so, in February,
there are more rumors.
1332
01:45:24,985 --> 01:45:28,910
In March, the rumors
are becoming even more specific.
1333
01:45:41,877 --> 01:45:44,255
He now begins to record
1334
01:45:45,422 --> 01:45:48,676
the departure of Jews
from the Lublin ghetto,
1335
01:45:48,759 --> 01:45:50,432
or Mielec,
1336
01:45:51,178 --> 01:45:53,146
or Krakow
1337
01:45:53,889 --> 01:45:55,607
and L wow.
1338
01:46:00,020 --> 01:46:02,114
And he recognizes
1339
01:46:02,815 --> 01:46:06,786
that something may well be
in the offing for Warsaw itself.
1340
01:46:14,243 --> 01:46:17,918
And every subsequent entry is replete
1341
01:46:17,997 --> 01:46:22,343
with the anxiety that he feels.
1342
01:46:51,614 --> 01:46:56,541
BELZEC
SITE OF THE EXTERMINATION CAMP
1343
01:47:10,007 --> 01:47:13,602
[ Lanzmann ]
When Czerniakow hears rumors
1344
01:47:13,844 --> 01:47:19,442
about the depo/Tations
from Lublin, Lwow and Krakow
1345
01:47:20,601 --> 01:47:24,026
around March 1942,
1346
01:47:25,314 --> 01:47:28,534
and we know now that
the transports went to Belzec,
1347
01:47:36,033 --> 01:47:40,379
does he ask in his diary
where they are shipped,
1348
01:47:41,830 --> 01:47:43,582
what happens to them?
1349
01:47:43,666 --> 01:47:46,920
[ Hilberg ]
No. He never does.
1350
01:47:48,295 --> 01:47:50,548
And he never mentions any destination.
1351
01:48:00,224 --> 01:48:02,318
But we cannot really decide
1352
01:48:02,393 --> 01:48:05,317
that he had no knowledge whatsoever
1353
01:48:05,813 --> 01:48:08,032
about these camps.
1354
01:48:17,616 --> 01:48:21,496
All we know is that
he didn't mention them in the diary.
1355
01:48:25,332 --> 01:48:27,426
And we also know, of course,
from other sources,
1356
01:48:27,501 --> 01:48:31,881
that the existence of death camps
was already known in Warsaw,
1357
01:48:32,089 --> 01:48:34,683
certainly by June.
1358
01:48:44,601 --> 01:48:48,856
[ Lanzmann, In German]
Why did Czerniakow commit suicide?
1359
01:48:49,940 --> 01:48:57,074
Because he realized
there was no future for the ghetto.
1360
01:48:57,156 --> 01:49:03,835
He probably saw before I did
that the Jews would be killed.
1361
01:49:04,830 --> 01:49:12,635
I suppose the Jews already had
their excellent secret services.
1362
01:49:12,921 --> 01:49:15,674
They were too well informed,
1363
01:49:15,758 --> 01:49:17,852
better than we were.
1364
01:49:18,427 --> 01:49:20,429
- Think so?
- Yes, I do.
1365
01:49:20,512 --> 01:49:25,769
- The Jews knew more than you?
- I'm convinced of it!
1366
01:49:25,851 --> 01:49:28,775
- It's hard to believe.
- Doch, doch.
1367
01:49:28,854 --> 01:49:32,950
The German administration
was never informed
1368
01:49:33,025 --> 01:49:37,201
of what would happen to the Jews.
1369
01:49:40,407 --> 01:49:44,037
When was the first deportation
to Treblinka?
1370
01:49:51,376 --> 01:49:54,846
Before Auerswald's suicide, I think.
1371
01:49:56,215 --> 01:50:01,642
- Auerswald's?
- I mean Czerniakow's. Sorry.
1372
01:50:01,720 --> 01:50:03,848
July 22.
1373
01:50:05,015 --> 01:50:08,394
Those are dates...
1374
01:50:09,019 --> 01:50:13,616
So the deportations began July 22, 1942.
1375
01:50:13,690 --> 01:50:15,067
Yes.
1376
01:50:16,360 --> 01:50:17,782
To... Treblinka.
1377
01:50:17,861 --> 01:50:22,116
And Czerniakow killed himself July 23.
1378
01:50:22,950 --> 01:50:24,668
Yes, that is...
1379
01:50:24,743 --> 01:50:26,245
- The next day.
- The next day.
1380
01:50:26,328 --> 01:50:30,128
So that was it, he'd realized
1381
01:50:30,207 --> 01:50:33,131
that his idea...
1382
01:50:33,210 --> 01:50:37,636
it was his idea, I think, of working
in good faith with the Germans,
1383
01:50:37,714 --> 01:50:41,639
in the Jews' best interests.
1384
01:50:41,718 --> 01:50:48,067
He'd realized this idea,
this dream was destroyed.
1385
01:50:48,142 --> 01:50:51,897
- That the idea was a dream.
- Yes.
1386
01:50:52,229 --> 01:50:57,156
And when the dream faded,
he took the logical way out.
1387
01:51:09,997 --> 01:51:14,753
[ Lanzmann, In English] The last entry takes place
how long before his suicide?
1388
01:51:19,298 --> 01:51:24,600
[ Hilberg] The last entry
precedes his death by a few hours.
1389
01:51:27,055 --> 01:51:29,433
[ Lanzmann ]
And what does he write?
1390
01:51:35,939 --> 01:51:37,987
“It is 3200.
1391
01:51:40,235 --> 01:51:43,284
So far, 4,000 are ready to go.
1392
01:51:44,990 --> 01:51:48,915
The orders are that
there must be 9,000 by 4:00.”
1393
01:51:55,125 --> 01:51:57,969
This is the last entry of a man
on the afternoon
1394
01:51:58,045 --> 01:52:00,548
of the day that he commits suicide.
1395
01:52:08,430 --> 01:52:15,314
[ Lanzmann] The first transport
of the Jews of Warsaw for Treblinka
1396
01:52:15,812 --> 01:52:21,114
was the 22nd of July, 1942.
1397
01:52:22,319 --> 01:52:26,290
And he commits suicide the day after?
- That's right.
1398
01:52:26,365 --> 01:52:28,459
In other words, on the 22nd, you see,
1399
01:52:28,533 --> 01:52:31,912
on the 22nd, he is called in
by SturmbannfiJhrer Hofle,
1400
01:52:31,995 --> 01:52:34,544
who is in charge of the resettlement staff,
1401
01:52:34,623 --> 01:52:38,469
who has come in there for the express purpose
of taking the Jews out of Warsaw.
1402
01:52:38,543 --> 01:52:41,171
Hofle tells him, on the 22nd...
1403
01:52:42,339 --> 01:52:47,812
And, here, incidentally,
is another fascinating point.
1404
01:52:48,303 --> 01:52:51,102
Czerniakow is so agitated
1405
01:52:51,848 --> 01:52:55,148
that he doesn't put the date down correctly.
1406
01:52:55,227 --> 01:53:01,200
Instead of saying, “July 22, 1942,”
he says, “July 22, 1940.”
1407
01:53:02,818 --> 01:53:04,320
[ Clicks Tongue ]
1408
01:53:04,861 --> 01:53:09,082
Hofle calls him in at 10:00,
1409
01:53:09,700 --> 01:53:12,044
disconnects the telephones.
1410
01:53:12,619 --> 01:53:16,374
Children are removed from the playground
opposite the community building.
1411
01:53:16,748 --> 01:53:20,252
And then he is told that all Jews,
irrespective of sex and age,
1412
01:53:20,335 --> 01:53:24,886
with certain exceptions,
will be deported to the east.
1413
01:53:25,674 --> 01:53:27,802
To the east.
1414
01:53:28,385 --> 01:53:30,103
Again, the east.
1415
01:53:30,178 --> 01:53:34,854
And by 4:00 p.m. today, a contingent
of 6,000 people must be provided,
1416
01:53:34,933 --> 01:53:37,527
and this, at the minimum,
will be the daily quota.
1417
01:53:37,602 --> 01:53:43,575
Now, he's told that at 10:00
in the morning of July 22, 1942.
1418
01:53:43,817 --> 01:53:46,411
He then goes on.
He keeps appealing.
1419
01:53:46,486 --> 01:53:49,035
He... He wants certain exemptions.
1420
01:53:49,114 --> 01:53:51,663
He wants the Council staff to be exempt.
1421
01:53:51,742 --> 01:53:55,167
He wants the staff
of the welfare organizations to be exempt,
1422
01:53:55,245 --> 01:53:58,749
and he's terribly worried
that the orphans will be deported,
1423
01:53:58,832 --> 01:54:01,585
and he repeatedly brings up the orphans.
1424
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:05,339
And, on the next day,
he still doesn't have assurance
1425
01:54:05,422 --> 01:54:08,926
that the orphans are going to be saved.
1426
01:54:10,093 --> 01:54:14,519
Now, if he cannot be
the caretaker of the orphanage,
1427
01:54:15,098 --> 01:54:17,226
then he has lost his war,
1428
01:54:18,060 --> 01:54:20,859
he has lost his struggle.
1429
01:54:21,646 --> 01:54:23,944
But why the orphans?
1430
01:54:24,149 --> 01:54:26,618
They are the most helpless element
in the community.
1431
01:54:26,693 --> 01:54:30,368
They are the little children, its future,
who have lost their parents.
1432
01:54:30,447 --> 01:54:34,327
They cannot possibly
do anything on their own.
1433
01:54:34,618 --> 01:54:38,498
If the orphans do not have exemption,
if he doesn't even get the promise,
1434
01:54:38,580 --> 01:54:42,460
the words spoken by a German SS officer,
1435
01:54:42,542 --> 01:54:46,672
not even assurances,
which, as he knows, cannot be counted on,
1436
01:54:46,755 --> 01:54:49,304
if he cannot even get the words,
1437
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:51,677
what can he think?
1438
01:55:00,268 --> 01:55:04,318
If he cannot take care of the children,
what else can he do?
1439
01:55:23,125 --> 01:55:25,548
Some people report that
1440
01:55:26,169 --> 01:55:30,891
he wrote a note,
after he closed the book, on the diary,
1441
01:55:31,466 --> 01:55:33,343
in which he said,
1442
01:55:36,179 --> 01:55:41,231
“They want me to kill the children
with my own hands.”
1443
01:56:04,374 --> 01:56:09,130
[ Lanzmann, In German] Did you think
this idea of a ghetto was a good one?
1444
01:56:09,212 --> 01:56:11,465
A sort of self-management, right?
1445
01:56:11,548 --> 01:56:14,893
- That's right.
- A mini-State?
1446
01:56:15,260 --> 01:56:21,563
- It worked well.
- But it was self-management for death, no?
1447
01:56:22,225 --> 01:56:25,229
We know that now.
But at the time...
1448
01:56:25,312 --> 01:56:27,656
- Even then!
- No!
1449
01:56:27,731 --> 01:56:29,324
Czerniakow wrote,
1450
01:56:29,399 --> 01:56:35,202
“We're puppets, we have no power.”
- Yes.
1451
01:56:35,280 --> 01:56:39,330
- No power.
- Sure... that was...
1452
01:56:39,576 --> 01:56:44,582
- You Germans were the overlords.
- Yes.
1453
01:56:44,664 --> 01:56:47,383
The overlords. The masters.
1454
01:56:47,459 --> 01:56:49,336
Obviously.
1455
01:56:49,419 --> 01:56:56,223
- Czerniakow was merely a tool.
- [ Repeats Phrase] Ja.
1456
01:56:56,301 --> 01:56:59,521
Yes, but a good tool.
1457
01:56:59,596 --> 01:57:05,979
Jewish self-management worked well,
I can tell you.
1458
01:57:06,061 --> 01:57:09,486
It worked well for 3 years,
1459
01:57:11,942 --> 01:57:15,822
1941, 1942, 1943...
2 1/2 years... and in the end...
1460
01:57:15,904 --> 01:57:17,531
In the end...
1461
01:57:17,614 --> 01:57:21,118
“Worked well” for what?
1462
01:57:21,201 --> 01:57:23,078
To what end?
1463
01:57:23,703 --> 01:57:26,877
For self-preservation.
1464
01:57:26,957 --> 01:57:28,925
No! For death!
1465
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:33,221
- Yes, but...
- Self-management, self-preservation...
1466
01:57:33,296 --> 01:57:36,049
That's easy to say now.
1467
01:57:36,132 --> 01:57:41,730
- You admitted the conditions were inhuman.
- Ja.
1468
01:57:41,805 --> 01:57:45,355
[ Lanzmann ]
Atrocious... horrible!
1469
01:57:45,433 --> 01:57:49,404
So it was clear even then...
1470
01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:54,576
No! Extermination wasn't clear.
1471
01:57:54,651 --> 01:57:59,873
Now we see the result.
- Extermination isn't so simple.
1472
01:57:59,948 --> 01:58:02,246
One step was taken,
1473
01:58:02,325 --> 01:58:08,082
then another, and another, and another...
- Yes.
1474
01:58:08,164 --> 01:58:12,920
But to understand the process, one must...
1475
01:58:13,003 --> 01:58:20,057
I repeat: extermination did not
take place in the ghetto, not at first.
1476
01:58:20,135 --> 01:58:22,729
Only with the evacuations.
1477
01:58:22,804 --> 01:58:24,806
Otherwise, in the ghetto, we would have...
1478
01:58:25,015 --> 01:58:27,143
Evacuations?
1479
01:58:27,225 --> 01:58:29,398
The evacuations to Treblinka.
1480
01:58:29,477 --> 01:58:33,607
The ghetto could have been
wiped out with weapons...
1481
01:58:33,690 --> 01:58:34,657
Nein? - Ja.
1482
01:58:34,733 --> 01:58:38,078
as it was finally done,
after the rebellion.
1483
01:58:38,361 --> 01:58:42,411
After I'd left.
But at the start...
1484
01:58:42,741 --> 01:58:45,961
Mr. Lanzmann, this is getting us nowhere.
1485
01:58:46,995 --> 01:58:50,215
We're reaching no new conclusions.
1486
01:58:51,041 --> 01:58:56,673
- I don't think we can.
- Nein.
1487
01:58:56,755 --> 01:59:02,478
I didn't know then what I know now.
1488
01:59:02,552 --> 01:59:06,682
You weren't a nonentity.
1489
01:59:06,765 --> 01:59:09,393
- But I was!
- You were important.
1490
01:59:10,685 --> 01:59:12,938
- You overestimate my role.
- No.
1491
01:59:13,021 --> 01:59:15,274
- Nein?
- Nein.
1492
01:59:16,107 --> 01:59:21,329
You were 2nd to the Commissioner
of the Warsaw “Jewish district.”
1493
01:59:21,404 --> 01:59:25,159
- But I had no power.
- It was something.
1494
01:59:25,241 --> 01:59:29,542
You were part of the vast
German power structure.
1495
01:59:29,621 --> 01:59:33,342
Correct. But a small part.
1496
01:59:33,416 --> 01:59:38,172
You overestimate the authority
of a deputy of 28 then.
1497
01:59:38,254 --> 01:59:40,382
- You were 30.
- 28.
1498
01:59:40,465 --> 01:59:43,389
- At 30, you were...
- [ Laughs]
1499
01:59:43,468 --> 01:59:45,311
Nein.
- Das ist...
1500
01:59:46,930 --> 01:59:50,150
[ In French ] you were mature.
[ Repeats In German]
1501
01:59:50,225 --> 01:59:56,358
Yes, but for a lawyer
who got his degree at 27,
1502
01:59:56,439 --> 01:59:58,612
it's just a beginning.
1503
01:59:58,692 --> 02:00:00,114
Ja.
1504
02:00:02,862 --> 02:00:04,364
You had a doctorate.
1505
02:00:04,447 --> 02:00:06,745
The title proves nothing.
1506
02:00:07,784 --> 02:00:10,207
- Did Auerswald have one too?
- No.
1507
02:00:10,286 --> 02:00:12,960
But the title's irrelevant.
1508
02:00:13,206 --> 02:00:15,300
Doctor of Law...
1509
02:00:16,000 --> 02:00:19,049
What did you do after the war?
- Aber...
1510
02:00:19,879 --> 02:00:25,181
I was with a mountaineering
publishing house.
1511
02:00:25,260 --> 02:00:26,477
- That so?
- Ja, ja.
1512
02:00:26,553 --> 02:00:32,185
I wrote and published mountain guidebooks.
1513
02:00:32,267 --> 02:00:35,111
I published a climbers' magazine.
1514
02:00:35,645 --> 02:00:38,694
Is climbing your main interest?
1515
02:00:39,649 --> 02:00:41,492
- Yes.
1516
02:00:41,985 --> 02:00:44,989
The mountains, the air...
- Yes.
1517
02:00:45,071 --> 02:00:47,995
The sun, the pure air...
1518
02:00:48,074 --> 02:00:50,168
Not like the ghetto air.
1519
02:01:39,876 --> 02:01:43,380
[ Women Singing In Yiddish]
y The words, the words that I write to you y
1520
02:01:43,838 --> 02:01:47,138
J' Are not written with ink,
but with tears J'
1521
02:01:47,383 --> 02:01:50,808
p The best years are ending now p
1522
02:01:51,054 --> 02:01:54,399
J' Are not written with ink,
but with tears J'
1523
02:01:54,682 --> 02:01:58,152
p The best years are ending now p
1524
02:01:58,436 --> 02:02:01,531
p And are gone, not to return y
1525
02:02:02,065 --> 02:02:05,990
,r It is difficult to fix
that which is shattered y
1526
02:02:06,236 --> 02:02:11,117
g And it is difficult to unite our love J'
1527
02:02:11,366 --> 02:02:14,085
J' Oh, show your tears J'
1528
02:02:14,160 --> 02:02:17,004
J' The fault is not mine J'
1529
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:20,675
g Because it must be so J'
1530
02:02:20,750 --> 02:02:24,880
g It must be so
It must be so g
1531
02:02:25,255 --> 02:02:28,759
g We must both separate g
1532
02:02:29,050 --> 02:02:32,680
g It must be so
It must be so g
1533
02:02:32,929 --> 02:02:36,058
J' The love that ends for both of us g
1534
02:02:36,307 --> 02:02:40,983
g Do you remember when I left you? J'
1535
02:02:41,312 --> 02:02:45,192
g My fate dictated I must leave you J'
1536
02:02:45,275 --> 02:02:47,698
g Because in this way
I will never again be bothered g
1537
02:02:47,777 --> 02:02:49,825
NEW YORK
GERTRUDE SCHNEIDER AND HER MOTHER
1538
02:02:49,904 --> 02:02:52,874
g Because it must be so J'
1539
02:02:53,324 --> 02:02:57,374
LOHAME HAGHETTAOT
KIBBUTZ MUSEUM
1540
02:02:57,453 --> 02:03:01,754
GHETTO FIGHTERS' KIBBUTZ,
ISRAEL
1541
02:03:01,833 --> 02:03:06,179
The Jewish Combat Organization (J.C.O.)
in the Warsaw ghetto
1542
02:03:06,254 --> 02:03:10,555
was officially formed on July 28, 1942.
1543
02:03:10,633 --> 02:03:15,013
After the first mass
deportation to Treblinka,
1544
02:03:15,096 --> 02:03:18,396
which was interrupted on September 30,
1545
02:03:18,474 --> 02:03:22,775
some 60,000 Jews remained in the ghetto.
1546
02:03:22,854 --> 02:03:27,234
On January 18, 1943,
the deportations were resumed.
1547
02:03:27,317 --> 02:03:30,571
Despite a severe lack of weapons,
1548
02:03:30,653 --> 02:03:35,033
the members of the J.C.O.
called for resistance,
1549
02:03:35,116 --> 02:03:39,417
and started fighting,
to the Germans' total surprise.
1550
02:03:39,495 --> 02:03:41,748
It lasted 3 days.
1551
02:03:41,831 --> 02:03:45,131
The Nazis withdrew with losses,
1552
02:03:45,209 --> 02:03:49,589
abandoning weapons the Jews grabbed.
1553
02:03:49,672 --> 02:03:52,926
The deportations were stopped.
1554
02:03:53,009 --> 02:03:55,262
The Germans now knew
1555
02:03:55,345 --> 02:03:59,725
they had to fight to conquer the ghetto.
1556
02:03:59,807 --> 02:04:04,108
The battle began
on the evening of April 19, 1943,
1557
02:04:04,187 --> 02:04:08,567
the eve of Pessach Passover.
1558
02:04:08,650 --> 02:04:13,076
It had to be a fight to the death.
1559
02:05:14,048 --> 02:05:17,678
SIMHA ROTTEM, known as "Kajik"
1560
02:05:17,760 --> 02:05:21,765
ITZHAK ZUCKERMANN, known as “Antek,”
2nd in command of the J.C.O.
1561
02:05:23,474 --> 02:05:26,944
[ Antek Speaking Hebrew]
1562
02:05:28,771 --> 02:05:31,900
[ Interpreter
I began drinking after the war.
1563
02:05:35,737 --> 02:05:40,208
[ Antek Speaking Hebrew]
1564
02:05:40,283 --> 02:05:42,627
It was very difficult.
1565
02:05:46,330 --> 02:05:51,330
[ Antek Speaking Hebrew]
1566
02:05:58,926 --> 02:06:02,180
Claude, you asked for my impression.
1567
02:06:03,681 --> 02:06:07,276
If you could lick my heart,
1568
02:06:07,351 --> 02:06:09,854
it would poison you.
1569
02:06:13,149 --> 02:06:17,370
At the request of Mordechai Anielewicz,
1570
02:06:17,653 --> 02:06:20,748
commander-in-chief of the J.C.O.,
1571
02:06:21,032 --> 02:06:25,583
Antek had left the ghetto
6 days before the German attack.
1572
02:06:25,870 --> 02:06:27,918
His mission:
1573
02:06:28,206 --> 02:06:32,336
To ask Polish Resistance leaders
to arm the Jews.
1574
02:06:32,668 --> 02:06:34,670
They refused.
1575
02:06:47,517 --> 02:06:50,270
[Speaking Hebrew]
1576
02:07:47,326 --> 02:07:52,833
[ Interpreter
I don't think the human tongue can describe
1577
02:07:52,915 --> 02:07:55,794
the horror we went through in the ghetto.
1578
02:07:57,420 --> 02:08:01,516
In the streets,
if you can call them that,
1579
02:08:01,757 --> 02:08:04,727
for nothing was left of the streets,
1580
02:08:04,802 --> 02:08:09,774
we had to step over heaps of corpses.
1581
02:08:10,183 --> 02:08:13,187
There was no room to pass beside them.
1582
02:08:13,269 --> 02:08:17,024
Besides fighting the Germans,
we fought hunger
1583
02:08:17,106 --> 02:08:19,279
and thirst.
1584
02:08:19,358 --> 02:08:22,362
We had no contact with the outside world,
1585
02:08:22,445 --> 02:08:26,541
we were completely isolated,
cut off from the world.
1586
02:08:42,298 --> 02:08:44,721
[ Interpreter
We were in such a state
1587
02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:48,054
that we could no longer understand
1588
02:08:48,137 --> 02:08:51,937
the very meaning of
why we went on fighting.
1589
02:08:52,016 --> 02:08:59,742
[ Kajik Continues ]
1590
02:08:59,815 --> 02:09:03,570
We thought of attempting a breakout
1591
02:09:03,653 --> 02:09:07,248
to the Aryan part of Warsaw,
outside the ghetto.
1592
02:09:07,323 --> 02:09:10,122
[ Kajik Continues ]
1593
02:09:22,505 --> 02:09:24,758
Just before May 1,
1594
02:09:24,840 --> 02:09:27,309
Sigmund and I were sent
1595
02:09:27,385 --> 02:09:32,312
to try to contact Antek in Aryan Warsaw.
1596
02:09:49,740 --> 02:09:54,211
[ Interpreter
We found a tunnel under Bonifrateska Street
1597
02:09:54,287 --> 02:09:58,758
that led out into Aryan Warsaw.
1598
02:10:22,315 --> 02:10:30,245
[ Kajik Continues ]
1599
02:10:31,157 --> 02:10:32,830
Early in the morning,
1600
02:10:32,908 --> 02:10:37,505
we suddenly emerged
into a street in broad daylight.
1601
02:10:37,913 --> 02:10:44,091
[ Kajik Continues ]
1602
02:10:46,297 --> 02:10:49,927
Imagine us on that sunny May 1,
1603
02:10:50,217 --> 02:10:54,848
stunned to find ourselves in the street,
among normal people.
1604
02:10:54,930 --> 02:10:58,480
We'd come from another planet.
1605
02:11:20,623 --> 02:11:23,467
[ Kajik Continues ]
1606
02:11:37,223 --> 02:11:41,979
People immediately jumped on us
1607
02:11:42,061 --> 02:11:45,406
because we certainly looked exhausted,
1608
02:11:45,481 --> 02:11:47,779
skinny, in rags.
1609
02:11:48,818 --> 02:11:53,619
Around the ghetto,
there were always suspicious Poles
1610
02:11:53,697 --> 02:11:55,574
who grabbed Jews.
1611
02:12:01,622 --> 02:12:05,798
[ Kajik Continues ]
1612
02:12:05,876 --> 02:12:09,005
By a miracle, we escaped them.
1613
02:12:17,221 --> 02:12:22,148
[ Kajik Continues ]
1614
02:12:23,853 --> 02:12:26,447
In Aryan Warsaw,
1615
02:12:26,522 --> 02:12:31,904
life went on as naturally
and normally as before.
1616
02:12:37,199 --> 02:12:42,199
[ Kajik Continues ]
1617
02:12:49,545 --> 02:12:51,843
The cafes operated normally,
1618
02:12:51,922 --> 02:12:54,892
the restaurants, buses, streetcars...
1619
02:12:54,967 --> 02:12:57,641
The movies were open.
1620
02:12:57,720 --> 02:13:01,190
[ Kajik Continues ]
1621
02:13:03,267 --> 02:13:08,398
The ghetto was an isolated island
amid normal life.
1622
02:13:24,580 --> 02:13:28,756
[ Kajik Continues ]
1623
02:13:41,931 --> 02:13:47,279
Our job was to contact
Itzhak Zuckermann
1624
02:13:47,853 --> 02:13:51,153
to try to mount' a rescue operation,
1625
02:13:51,232 --> 02:13:53,826
to try to save the few fighters
1626
02:13:53,901 --> 02:13:56,950
who might still be alive in the ghetto.
1627
02:13:57,947 --> 02:14:00,917
[ Kajik Continues ]
1628
02:14:00,991 --> 02:14:05,121
We managed to contact Zuckermann.
1629
02:14:08,624 --> 02:14:12,800
[ Kajik Continues ]
1630
02:14:13,295 --> 02:14:16,890
We found two sewer workers.
1631
02:14:16,966 --> 02:14:23,724
[ Kajik Continues ]
1632
02:14:36,235 --> 02:14:38,203
On the night of May 8-9,
1633
02:14:38,279 --> 02:14:41,453
we decided to return to the ghetto
1634
02:14:41,532 --> 02:14:46,003
with another buddy, Riszek,
and the 2 sewer workers.
1635
02:14:46,495 --> 02:14:50,841
After the curfew, we entered the sewers.
1636
02:14:55,671 --> 02:15:03,681
[ Kajik Continues ]
1637
02:15:04,179 --> 02:15:08,650
We were entirely
at the mercy of the two workmen,
1638
02:15:08,726 --> 02:15:13,357
since only they knew
the ghettds underground layout.
1639
02:15:16,442 --> 02:15:21,442
[ Kajik Continues ]
1640
02:15:27,745 --> 02:15:31,716
Halfway there, they decided to turn back,
1641
02:15:31,790 --> 02:15:36,512
they tried to drop us,
and we had to threaten them with our guns.
1642
02:15:38,005 --> 02:15:42,306
[ Kajik Continues ]
1643
02:15:42,384 --> 02:15:46,855
We went on through the sewers...
1644
02:15:51,101 --> 02:15:56,323
[ Kajik Continues ]
1645
02:15:56,398 --> 02:16:02,201
until one of the workmen told us
we were under the ghetto.
1646
02:16:02,404 --> 02:16:06,750
[ Kajik Continues ]
1647
02:16:06,950 --> 02:16:11,877
Riszek guarded them
so they couldn't escape.
1648
02:16:12,456 --> 02:16:16,051
MILA 18.
J.C.O. BUNKER HEADQUARTERS
1649
02:16:16,418 --> 02:16:19,262
[ Kajik Continues ]
1650
02:16:19,546 --> 02:16:22,766
I raised the manhole cover
1651
02:16:22,841 --> 02:16:25,344
to go up into the ghetto.
1652
02:16:39,566 --> 02:16:44,367
[ Kajik Continues ]
1653
02:16:45,864 --> 02:16:50,119
At bunker Mila 18, I missed them by a day.
1654
02:16:52,162 --> 02:17:01,924
[ Kajik Continues ]
1655
02:17:05,300 --> 02:17:08,975
I had returned the night of May 8-9.
1656
02:17:11,473 --> 02:17:17,196
The Germans found the bunker
on the morning of the 8th.
1657
02:17:17,604 --> 02:17:22,280
WARSAW - THE MONUMENT
TO THE GHETTO FIGHTERS
1658
02:17:32,161 --> 02:17:38,339
[ Kajik Continues ]
1659
02:17:38,584 --> 02:17:43,010
Most of its survivors committed suicide,
1660
02:17:43,088 --> 02:17:46,012
or succumbed to gas in the bunkers.
1661
02:17:46,717 --> 02:17:51,644
THE REPLICA OF THE MONUMENT
TO THE GHETTO FIGHTERS
1662
02:17:51,722 --> 02:17:54,646
JERUSALEM
1663
02:18:21,668 --> 02:18:25,138
[ Kajik Continues ]
1664
02:18:42,523 --> 02:18:46,869
I went to bunker Franciszkanska 22.
1665
02:18:47,736 --> 02:18:51,832
There was no answer
when I yelled the password,
1666
02:18:54,493 --> 02:18:57,588
so I had to go on through the ghetto.
1667
02:18:57,663 --> 02:19:01,839
I suddenly heard a woman
calling from the ruins.
1668
02:19:42,833 --> 02:19:47,384
It was darkest night,
no lights, you saw nothing.
1669
02:19:47,462 --> 02:19:51,217
All the houses were in ruins,
and I heard only one voice.
1670
02:19:51,300 --> 02:19:55,771
I thought some evil spell
had been cast on me,
1671
02:19:55,846 --> 02:19:58,599
a woman's voice talking from the rubble.
1672
02:19:58,682 --> 02:20:00,980
I circled the ruins.
1673
02:20:01,059 --> 02:20:02,652
I didn't look at my watch,
1674
02:20:02,728 --> 02:20:06,904
but I must have spent
a half hour exploring,
1675
02:20:06,982 --> 02:20:10,236
trying to find the woman
whose voice guided me,
1676
02:20:10,319 --> 02:20:13,323
but, unfortunately, I didn't find her.
1677
02:20:16,158 --> 02:20:18,001
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Were there fires?
1678
02:20:18,076 --> 02:20:20,625
[ Interpreter
1679
02:20:40,390 --> 02:20:43,940
Strictly speaking, no,
for the flames had died down,
1680
02:20:44,019 --> 02:20:46,363
but there was still smoke,
1681
02:20:46,438 --> 02:20:48,816
and that awful smell
of charred flesh
1682
02:20:48,899 --> 02:20:52,529
of people who had surely
been burned alive.
1683
02:21:29,147 --> 02:21:31,821
I continued on my way,
1684
02:21:31,900 --> 02:21:36,531
going to other bunkers
in search of fighting units,
1685
02:21:36,613 --> 02:21:38,911
but it was the same everywhere.
1686
02:21:38,991 --> 02:21:42,712
I'd give the password: “Jan.”
1687
02:21:44,746 --> 02:21:47,420
[Lanzmann, In French]
That's a Polish first name, Jan.
1688
02:21:48,959 --> 02:21:51,462
[ Interpreter
1689
02:21:51,712 --> 02:21:54,306
Right. And I got no answer.
1690
02:21:54,381 --> 02:21:58,011
I went from bunker to bunker,
1691
02:21:58,093 --> 02:22:02,473
and after walking for hours in the ghetto,
1692
02:22:02,556 --> 02:22:05,685
I went back toward the sewers.
1693
02:22:05,767 --> 02:22:08,771
- Was he alone then?
- [ Interpreter
1694
02:22:11,690 --> 02:22:14,193
Yes, I was alone all the time.
1695
02:22:38,884 --> 02:22:40,431
[ Interpreter
Oui...
1696
02:23:09,664 --> 02:23:12,042
Except for that woman's voice,
1697
02:23:12,125 --> 02:23:16,676
and a man I met
as I came out of the sewers,
1698
02:23:16,755 --> 02:23:19,975
I was alone throughout my tour
of the ghetto.
1699
02:23:20,050 --> 02:23:23,270
I didn't meet a living soul.
1700
02:23:23,345 --> 02:23:26,064
At one point, I recall
1701
02:23:26,139 --> 02:23:30,485
feeling a kind of peace, or serenity,
1702
02:23:30,560 --> 02:23:33,734
when I said to myself, “I'm the last Jew.
1703
02:23:33,814 --> 02:23:37,864
I'll wait for morning
and for the Germans.”
1704
02:24:52,809 --> 02:24:55,983
[ Train Clacking Continues]
1705
02:25:12,412 --> 02:25:14,961
[ Clacking Fades ]