1
00:05:06,681 --> 00:05:09,855
[Srebnik Singing In Polish]
♪ A little white house ♪
2
00:05:10,060 --> 00:05:13,655
♪ Lingers in my memory;
3
00:05:13,897 --> 00:05:16,992
♪ Of that little white house ♪
4
00:05:17,317 --> 00:05:20,196
♪ I dream each night;
5
00:05:20,779 --> 00:05:23,749
♪ The windows of that little house ♪
6
00:05:23,990 --> 00:05:27,290
♪ Beautifully shine in the sun ♪
7
00:05:27,661 --> 00:05:30,881
♪ As if someone's eyes ♪
8
00:05:31,164 --> 00:05:34,008
♪ Were filling with tears ♪
9
00:05:34,376 --> 00:05:38,006
♪ There was so much happiness
in that little house ♪
10
00:05:38,255 --> 00:05:40,599
♪ And so many joyous days ♪
11
00:05:40,841 --> 00:05:44,266
♪ When I remember
those blissful moments ♪
12
00:05:44,344 --> 00:05:47,473
♪ My heart trembles ♪
13
00:05:47,848 --> 00:05:51,273
♪ A little white house ♪
14
00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:54,525
♪ Lingers in my memory;
15
00:05:55,105 --> 00:05:58,279
♪ Of that little white house ♪
16
00:05:58,608 --> 00:06:00,906
♪ I dream each night;
17
00:06:00,986 --> 00:06:06,288
[ Man
18
00:06:06,366 --> 00:06:08,869
- [ Man
- [ Man
19
00:06:08,952 --> 00:06:10,954
[ Female Interpreter, In French]
He was 13 1/2 years old.
20
00:06:11,037 --> 00:06:14,541
He had a lovely singing voice
and we heard him.
21
00:06:14,624 --> 00:06:17,173
♪ A little white house ♪
22
00:06:17,252 --> 00:06:19,801
♪ Lingers in my memory;
23
00:06:20,046 --> 00:06:22,390
♪ Of that little white house ♪
24
00:06:22,632 --> 00:06:25,385
♪ I dream each night;
25
00:06:25,635 --> 00:06:28,479
♪ The windows of that little house ♪
26
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,524
♪ Beautifully shine in the sun ♪
27
00:06:31,766 --> 00:06:34,895
♪ As if someone's eyes ♪
28
00:06:34,978 --> 00:06:38,608
♪ Were filling with tears ♪♪
29
00:06:44,237 --> 00:06:51,086
[ Man
30
00:06:51,161 --> 00:06:53,755
[ Interpreter, In French]
When I heard him again, my heart beat faster,
31
00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:57,209
because what happened
here... was a murder.
32
00:06:58,043 --> 00:07:00,922
I really relived what happened.
33
00:07:35,372 --> 00:07:37,500
[ Sighs, Coughs ]
34
00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:08,577
[ In German]
it's hard to recognize, but it was here.
35
00:08:10,824 --> 00:08:14,624
They burned people here.
36
00:08:14,953 --> 00:08:17,627
A lot of people were burned here.
37
00:08:28,466 --> 00:08:30,889
Yes, this is the place.
38
00:08:43,523 --> 00:08:45,275
[ Crow Caws ]
39
00:09:07,464 --> 00:09:11,139
No one ever left here again.
40
00:09:18,725 --> 00:09:21,069
The gas vans came in here...
41
00:09:21,311 --> 00:09:23,939
There were two huge ovens,
42
00:09:25,565 --> 00:09:27,067
[ Sighs ]
43
00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:31,155
And afterward,
the bodies were thrown
44
00:09:31,988 --> 00:09:34,912
into these ovens,
45
00:09:34,991 --> 00:09:37,665
and the flames reached to the sky.
46
00:09:37,911 --> 00:09:40,039
- [ Lanzmann, In German ] To the sky?
- Ja.
47
00:09:44,584 --> 00:09:46,712
It was terrible.
48
00:09:55,553 --> 00:09:59,854
No one can describe it.
49
00:09:59,933 --> 00:10:03,278
No one can...
50
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,650
recreate what happened here.
51
00:10:09,692 --> 00:10:12,445
Impossible!
And no one can understand it.
52
00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:15,998
Even I, here, now.
53
00:10:23,873 --> 00:10:26,296
I can't believe I'm here.
54
00:10:29,129 --> 00:10:31,928
No, I just can't believe it.
55
00:10:44,144 --> 00:10:46,943
It was always this peaceful here.
56
00:10:48,106 --> 00:10:54,113
When they burned 2,000 people...
Jews... every day,
57
00:10:54,362 --> 00:10:56,456
it was just as peaceful.
58
00:10:58,741 --> 00:11:02,541
No one shouted.
Everyone went about his work.
59
00:11:02,912 --> 00:11:05,040
It was silent. Peaceful.
60
00:11:05,790 --> 00:11:07,838
Just as it is now.
61
00:11:17,260 --> 00:11:20,309
♪♪ [ Srebnik Singing In German]
62
00:11:26,102 --> 00:11:27,695
[Cattle Lowing ]
63
00:11:36,696 --> 00:11:40,417
♪ You, girl, don't you cry;
64
00:11:40,491 --> 00:11:43,290
♪ Don't be so sad ♪
65
00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:46,749
♪ For the dear summer is nearing ♪
66
00:11:47,123 --> 00:11:49,046
♪ And I'll return with it ♪
67
00:11:49,375 --> 00:11:52,629
♪ A mug of red wine, a slice of roast ♪
68
00:11:52,712 --> 00:11:55,932
♪ That's what the girls
give their soldiers ♪
69
00:11:56,132 --> 00:11:59,807
♪♪ [ Continues ]
70
00:12:03,306 --> 00:12:06,401
♪ When the soldiers march along ♪
71
00:12:06,726 --> 00:12:10,026
♪ The girls open their doors and windows ♪
72
00:12:10,104 --> 00:12:13,699
♪♪ [ Continues ]
73
00:12:17,779 --> 00:12:22,159
[ Man
74
00:12:22,242 --> 00:12:26,292
[ Interpreter, In French] They thought
the Germans made him sing on the river.
75
00:12:26,371 --> 00:12:30,467
- [ Man
- [ Man
76
00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,010
He was a toy to amuse them.
77
00:12:33,503 --> 00:12:36,507
- [ Man
- He had to do it.
78
00:12:36,839 --> 00:12:39,308
He sang, but his heart wept.
79
00:12:44,055 --> 00:12:47,434
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Do their hearts weep thinking about that now?
80
00:12:47,684 --> 00:12:50,107
- [ Men Reply]
- [ Interpreter] Certainly, very much so.
81
00:12:50,186 --> 00:12:57,115
[ Man
82
00:12:57,193 --> 00:13:00,117
They still talk about it
around the family table.
83
00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:03,325
[ Man
84
00:13:03,408 --> 00:13:06,161
It was public, so everyone knew of it.
85
00:13:07,704 --> 00:13:09,502
I Polish 1
86
00:13:11,874 --> 00:13:15,219
[ Interpreter]
He said that was true German irony,
87
00:13:18,089 --> 00:13:20,763
people were being killed,
and he had to sing.
88
00:13:22,427 --> 00:13:24,555
That's what I thought.
89
00:13:27,557 --> 00:13:30,310
[ Lanzmann ]
What died in him in Chelmno?
90
00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:33,863
[Speaking Yiddish ]
91
00:13:39,652 --> 00:13:41,825
[ Female Interpreter
Everything died.
92
00:13:41,904 --> 00:13:44,248
But he's only human,
and he wants to live.
93
00:13:44,324 --> 00:13:46,668
So he must forget.
94
00:13:47,994 --> 00:13:51,715
__ The other survivor:
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK - ISRAEL
95
00:13:53,249 --> 00:13:55,251
[ Interpreter
96
00:14:07,972 --> 00:14:12,523
He thanks God for what remains
and that he can forget.
97
00:14:12,602 --> 00:14:14,650
And let's not talk about that.
98
00:14:17,857 --> 00:14:20,485
[ Lanzmann ]
Does he think it's good to talk about it?
99
00:14:20,568 --> 00:14:23,913
[ Interpreter
100
00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:29,786
For me it's not good.
101
00:14:34,457 --> 00:14:36,960
[ Lanzmann]
Then why is he talking about it?
102
00:14:37,377 --> 00:14:39,800
[ Interpreter
103
00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:56,271
Because you're insisting on it.
104
00:14:56,479 --> 00:15:01,326
He was sent books on the Eichmann trial,
where he was a witness,
105
00:15:01,526 --> 00:15:03,995
and he didn't even read them.
106
00:15:09,492 --> 00:15:11,711
[ Lanzmann]
He survived, but is he really alive, or...?
107
00:15:11,786 --> 00:15:19,295
[ Interpreter
108
00:15:37,645 --> 00:15:40,819
At the time, he felt as if he were dead,
109
00:15:40,898 --> 00:15:43,822
because he never thought he'd survive,
110
00:15:44,193 --> 00:15:47,037
but... he's alive.
111
00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:54,333
[ Lanzmann ]
Why does he smile all the time?
112
00:15:55,163 --> 00:15:57,712
[ Interpreter
113
00:16:03,921 --> 00:16:05,923
What do you want him to do... cry?
114
00:16:06,257 --> 00:16:08,259
Sometimes you smile, sometimes you cry.
115
00:16:10,219 --> 00:16:12,847
And if you're alive, it's better to smile.
116
00:16:17,393 --> 00:16:21,694
[Lanzmann, In French]
Why was she so curious about this story?
117
00:16:21,772 --> 00:16:25,276
[ Female Interpreter
118
00:16:25,359 --> 00:16:27,361
[Speaking Hebrew]
119
00:16:29,197 --> 00:16:32,201
HANNA ZATDL
- ISRAEL -
120
00:16:32,742 --> 00:16:36,747
Daughter of Motke Zaidl,
survivor of Vilna (Lithuania)
121
00:17:08,945 --> 00:17:10,618
[ Interpreter
it's a long story.
122
00:17:10,696 --> 00:17:15,293
As a child,
I had little contact with my father.
123
00:17:15,368 --> 00:17:18,963
He went out to work,
and I didn't see much of him.
124
00:17:19,038 --> 00:17:22,668
Besides, he was a silent man,
he didn't talk to me.
125
00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:27,221
And when I grew up
and was strong enough to face him,
126
00:17:27,296 --> 00:17:30,926
I questioned him.
I never stopped questioning him
127
00:17:31,008 --> 00:17:35,229
until I got at the scraps of truth
he couldn't tell me.
128
00:17:35,304 --> 00:17:38,774
It came out haltingly.
129
00:17:39,141 --> 00:17:41,235
I had to tear the details out of him,
130
00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:46,862
and finally, when Mr. Lanzmann came,
131
00:17:47,191 --> 00:17:51,913
I heard the whole story
for the second time.
132
00:17:51,988 --> 00:17:53,581
POLKS ZATDL
133
00:17:55,491 --> 00:17:59,621
BEN SHEMEN FOREST (ISRAEL)
134
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:08,300
[ Motke Speaking Hebrew]
135
00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:24,771
[ Interpreter
The place resembles Ponary: the forest, the ditches.
136
00:18:24,854 --> 00:18:27,858
It's as if the bodies were burned here.
137
00:18:28,065 --> 00:18:30,989
Except there were no stones in Ponary.
138
00:18:32,111 --> 00:18:35,911
Ponary: forest where most
of the Vilna Jews were massacred
139
00:18:36,157 --> 00:18:38,000
[Lanzmann, In French]
But the Lithuanian forests
140
00:18:38,075 --> 00:18:41,249
are denser than the Israeli forest, no?
141
00:18:41,329 --> 00:18:45,300
[ Interpreter
142
00:18:45,374 --> 00:18:48,218
- [ Motke Replies]
- Of course.
143
00:18:48,544 --> 00:18:51,969
[ Poles Continues]
144
00:18:54,050 --> 00:18:58,180
The trees are similar,
but taller and fuller in Lithuania.
145
00:18:59,221 --> 00:19:03,397
FOREST OF THE EXTERMINATION CAMP
AT SOBIBOR (POLAND)
146
00:19:03,726 --> 00:19:07,196
[Lanzmann, In French]
ls there still hunting here in Sobibor forest?
147
00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:10,650
[ Interpreter
148
00:19:10,733 --> 00:19:13,828
[ Man Speaking Polish]
149
00:19:20,910 --> 00:19:25,006
[ Interpreter
Yes, there are lots of animals of all kinds.
150
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,502
[ Lanzmann ]
Was there hunting then?
151
00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:31,633
[ Interpreter
152
00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:34,716
[ Man Replies]
153
00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:38,645
Only man hunting.
154
00:19:40,262 --> 00:19:41,980
JAN PIWONSKI
155
00:19:59,407 --> 00:20:01,660
Some victims tried to escape.
156
00:20:07,707 --> 00:20:10,460
But they didn't know the area.
157
00:20:15,131 --> 00:20:19,932
At times people heard explosions
in the minefield.
158
00:20:20,010 --> 00:20:22,763
Sometimes they'd find a deer
159
00:20:22,847 --> 00:20:26,351
and sometimes a poor Jew
who tried to escape.
160
00:20:40,239 --> 00:20:42,958
[ Piwonski Continues ]
161
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,761
That's the charm of our forests:
silence and beauty.
162
00:21:03,012 --> 00:21:08,189
[ Piwonski Continues]
163
00:21:08,267 --> 00:21:11,567
But it wasn't always so silent here.
164
00:21:21,781 --> 00:21:26,207
There was a time
when it was full of screams
165
00:21:26,285 --> 00:21:27,787
and gunshots,
166
00:21:30,247 --> 00:21:31,749
of dogs' barking.
167
00:21:33,083 --> 00:21:35,381
[ Piwonski Continues]
168
00:21:43,761 --> 00:21:46,685
And that period especially
169
00:21:46,764 --> 00:21:49,483
is engraved on the minds of the people
170
00:21:49,558 --> 00:21:52,061
who lived here then.
171
00:21:56,357 --> 00:21:58,860
[ Piwonski Continues]
172
00:22:03,906 --> 00:22:09,037
After the revolt, the Germans
decided to liquidate the camp,
173
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,497
and early in the winter of 1943,
174
00:22:11,580 --> 00:22:15,551
they planted pines
that were three or four years old
175
00:22:15,626 --> 00:22:17,799
to camouflage all the traces.
176
00:22:17,878 --> 00:22:19,346
That screen of trees?
177
00:22:19,421 --> 00:22:20,673
- Thank you.
- Yes.
178
00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:22,850
[ Lanzmann ]
That's where the mass graves were?
179
00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:27,146
[ Interpreter
180
00:22:27,221 --> 00:22:29,349
- Thank you.
- Yes.
181
00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:31,775
[ Piwonski Continues]
182
00:22:41,026 --> 00:22:44,246
When he first came here in 1944,
183
00:22:44,321 --> 00:22:48,201
you couldn't guess
what had happened here,
184
00:22:48,284 --> 00:22:53,131
that these trees were hiding
the secret of a death camp.
185
00:22:57,167 --> 00:23:00,922
[ Lanzmann ] How did he react,
the first time he unloaded corpses,
186
00:23:01,005 --> 00:23:03,849
when the gas van doors were opened?
187
00:23:04,091 --> 00:23:11,441
[ Interpreter
188
00:23:17,563 --> 00:23:20,157
What could he do? He cried.
189
00:23:28,824 --> 00:23:31,953
The 3rd day,
he saw his wife and children.
190
00:23:52,973 --> 00:23:56,728
He placed his wife
in the grave and asked to be killed.
191
00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:59,734
The Germans said
he was strong enough to work,
192
00:23:59,813 --> 00:24:02,236
that he wouldn't be killed yet.
193
00:24:19,708 --> 00:24:21,802
[Lanzmann]
Was the weather very cold?
194
00:24:23,337 --> 00:24:25,305
[ Interpreter
195
00:24:25,714 --> 00:24:30,311
[ Podchlebnik Replies ]
196
00:24:30,928 --> 00:24:36,059
It was in the winter of 1942,
in early January.
197
00:24:39,645 --> 00:24:43,366
[ Lanzmann ] At that time,
the bodies weren't burned, just buried?
198
00:24:45,859 --> 00:24:50,581
[ Interpreter
199
00:24:50,906 --> 00:24:52,783
[ Podchlebnik Replies ]
200
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:14,889
No, they were buried,
and each row was covered with dirt.
201
00:25:14,972 --> 00:25:17,020
They weren't being burned yet.
202
00:25:17,099 --> 00:25:19,397
There were around four or five layers.
203
00:25:19,476 --> 00:25:22,320
The ditches were funnel-shaped.
204
00:25:22,771 --> 00:25:25,069
[ Podchlebnik Continues]
205
00:25:31,155 --> 00:25:34,409
They dumped the bodies
in these ditches,
206
00:25:34,491 --> 00:25:38,587
and they had to lay them out
like herrings, head to foot.
207
00:25:49,089 --> 00:25:54,141
[ Lanzmann ] So it was they who dug up
and burned all the Jews of Vilna?
208
00:25:54,803 --> 00:25:56,976
- [ Podchlebnik Replies]
- Yes.
209
00:25:57,598 --> 00:26:01,193
[ Man Speaking Hebrew]
210
00:26:01,268 --> 00:26:03,145
[ Interpreter
In early January 1944,
211
00:26:03,228 --> 00:26:05,777
we began digging up the bodies.
212
00:26:06,982 --> 00:26:09,030
[ Man Continues]
213
00:26:16,992 --> 00:26:19,836
When the last mass grave was opened,
214
00:26:20,329 --> 00:26:22,582
I recognized my whole family.
215
00:26:25,626 --> 00:26:28,470
[Lanzmann, In French]
Whom in his family did he recognize?
216
00:26:28,545 --> 00:26:31,924
[ Interpreter
217
00:26:40,182 --> 00:26:43,402
Morn and my sisters.
3 sisters with their kids.
218
00:26:43,477 --> 00:26:45,730
They were all in there.
219
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:48,403
[ Lanzmann]
How could he recognize them?
220
00:26:48,482 --> 00:26:50,359
[ Interpreter
221
00:26:50,859 --> 00:26:53,408
ITZHAK DUGIN:
Survivor of Vilna
222
00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:18,520
They'd been in the earth 4 months,
223
00:27:18,595 --> 00:27:20,973
and it was winter.
224
00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:22,899
They were very well preserved.
225
00:27:22,975 --> 00:27:26,775
I recognized their faces,
their clothes too.
226
00:27:27,938 --> 00:27:30,987
[ Lanzmann]
They'd been killed relatively recently?
227
00:27:31,066 --> 00:27:35,913
[ Interpreter
228
00:27:37,739 --> 00:27:39,537
Oui.
229
00:27:41,118 --> 00:27:43,212
[ Lanzmann ]
And it was the last grave?
230
00:27:43,704 --> 00:27:46,002
[ Interpreter
231
00:27:46,373 --> 00:27:48,671
- [ Dugin Replies]
- Oui.
232
00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:54,090
[ Lanzmann ]
The Nazi plan was for them to open the graves
233
00:27:54,173 --> 00:27:55,891
starting with the oldest?
234
00:27:57,050 --> 00:27:59,599
[ Interpreter
235
00:28:09,396 --> 00:28:10,818
Oui.
236
00:28:41,136 --> 00:28:44,140
The last graves were the newest,
237
00:28:44,223 --> 00:28:48,945
and we started with the oldest,
those of the first ghetto.
238
00:28:49,019 --> 00:28:51,989
In the first grave,
there were 24,000 bodies.
239
00:28:56,944 --> 00:28:59,948
[ Motke Speaking Hebrew]
240
00:29:04,409 --> 00:29:08,539
[ Interpreter
The deeper you dug, the flatter the bodies were.
241
00:29:08,622 --> 00:29:11,296
Each was almost a flat slab.
242
00:29:11,625 --> 00:29:15,505
[ Poles Continues]
243
00:29:15,587 --> 00:29:19,342
When you tried to grasp a body,
it crumbled,
244
00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:21,677
it was impossible to pick them up.
245
00:29:29,977 --> 00:29:34,403
We had to open the graves,
but without tools.
246
00:29:34,481 --> 00:29:38,236
They said, “Get used to working
with your hands.”
247
00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:40,912
[Lanzmann, In French]
With just their hands?
248
00:29:41,655 --> 00:29:43,703
[ Interpreter
249
00:29:44,533 --> 00:29:45,534
Oui.
250
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:06,931
When we first opened the graves,
251
00:30:07,014 --> 00:30:10,484
we couldn't help it,
we all burst out sobbing.
252
00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:15,315
But the Germans almost beat us to death.
253
00:30:15,397 --> 00:30:19,197
We had to work
at a killing pace for two days,
254
00:30:19,276 --> 00:30:22,029
beaten all the time, and with no tools.
255
00:30:23,739 --> 00:30:25,332
[ Lanzmann ]
They all burst out sobbing?
256
00:30:25,407 --> 00:30:27,535
[ Interpreter
257
00:30:31,955 --> 00:30:33,957
[ Poles Continues]
258
00:30:48,597 --> 00:30:51,066
The Germans even forbade us
259
00:30:51,141 --> 00:30:54,691
to use the words “corpse” or “victim.”
260
00:30:54,770 --> 00:30:58,491
The dead were blocks of wood, shit,
261
00:30:58,565 --> 00:31:01,614
with absolutely no importance...
262
00:31:03,820 --> 00:31:08,576
[ Dugin Speaking Hebrew]
263
00:31:08,658 --> 00:31:12,288
Anyone who said “corpse”
or “victim” was beaten.
264
00:31:13,455 --> 00:31:18,461
[ Dugin Continues]
265
00:31:18,543 --> 00:31:23,640
The Germans made us
refer to the bodies as “Figuren,”
266
00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:26,559
that is, as puppets, as dolls...
267
00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:29,934
- Schmattes.
- or as “Schmattes,” which means “rags.”
268
00:31:32,682 --> 00:31:34,730
[Lanzmann]
Were they told at the start!
269
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,905
how many “Figuren”
there were in all the graves?
270
00:31:37,979 --> 00:31:41,609
[ Interpreter
271
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:44,153
[ Motke Replies ]
272
00:31:53,537 --> 00:31:56,507
The head of the Vilna Gestapo told us,
273
00:31:56,581 --> 00:32:00,211
“There are 90,000 people lying there,
274
00:32:00,293 --> 00:32:03,342
and absolutely no trace
must be left of them.”
275
00:32:10,387 --> 00:32:14,267
[ In German]
It was at the end of November 1942.
276
00:32:16,268 --> 00:32:21,069
They chased us away from our work
277
00:32:22,566 --> 00:32:25,365
and back to our barracks.
278
00:32:25,444 --> 00:32:27,367
Suddenly,
279
00:32:28,905 --> 00:32:36,335
from the part of the camp called
280
00:32:37,456 --> 00:32:42,087
the death camp,
281
00:32:44,212 --> 00:32:46,385
flames shot up very high.
282
00:32:48,508 --> 00:32:54,311
In a flash, the whole countryside,
283
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:58,235
the whole camp seemed ablaze.
284
00:33:00,937 --> 00:33:02,860
It was already dark.
285
00:33:06,109 --> 00:33:10,114
We went into our barracks
286
00:33:11,865 --> 00:33:13,959
and ate...
287
00:33:14,451 --> 00:33:19,332
And from the window,
288
00:33:19,581 --> 00:33:25,429
we kept on watching
the fantastic backdrop of flames
289
00:33:25,504 --> 00:33:28,007
of every imaginable color,
290
00:33:29,257 --> 00:33:32,887
red, yellow, green, purple.
291
00:33:33,094 --> 00:33:41,320
And suddenly one of us stood up.
292
00:33:42,103 --> 00:33:48,327
We knew he'd been
an opera singer in Warsaw.
293
00:33:50,278 --> 00:33:54,533
His name was Salve, and...
294
00:33:54,616 --> 00:33:56,789
- [ Lanzmann, In German] Salve?
- Salve.
295
00:33:59,162 --> 00:34:03,133
Facing that curtain of fire,
296
00:34:03,208 --> 00:34:07,463
he began chanting a song
297
00:34:07,546 --> 00:34:11,050
I didn't know:
298
00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:13,723
“My God, my God,
299
00:34:15,470 --> 00:34:17,973
why hast Thou forsaken us?”
300
00:34:18,390 --> 00:34:22,486
RICHARD GLAZAR -
BASEL (SWITZERLAND)
301
00:34:24,479 --> 00:34:29,076
“We have been thrust
into the fire before,
302
00:34:29,484 --> 00:34:34,991
but we have never denied
Thy Holy Law.”
303
00:34:36,741 --> 00:34:40,371
He sang in Yiddish,
304
00:34:40,453 --> 00:34:42,831
while, behind him,
305
00:34:42,914 --> 00:34:47,966
blazed the pyres
306
00:34:48,670 --> 00:34:55,053
on which they had begun
then, in November 1942,
307
00:34:55,135 --> 00:34:58,264
to burn the bodies in Treblinka.
308
00:34:59,973 --> 00:35:04,979
That was the first time it happened.
309
00:35:06,521 --> 00:35:08,489
We knew that night
310
00:35:08,565 --> 00:35:12,786
that the dead would no longer be buried,
311
00:35:14,279 --> 00:35:16,281
they'd be burned.
312
00:35:16,781 --> 00:35:19,455
TREBLINKA
313
00:35:45,852 --> 00:35:50,574
When things were ready,
they poured on fuel
314
00:35:50,649 --> 00:35:52,572
and touched off the fire.
315
00:35:52,817 --> 00:35:55,195
They waited for a high wind.
316
00:35:55,278 --> 00:35:59,203
The pyres usually burned
for 7 or 8 days.
317
00:36:06,665 --> 00:36:10,886
[ Srebnik, In German]
There was a concrete platform some distance away,
318
00:36:12,087 --> 00:36:15,136
and the bones that hadn't burned,
319
00:36:15,215 --> 00:36:17,889
the big bones of the feet, for example,
320
00:36:17,967 --> 00:36:20,390
we took...
321
00:36:21,554 --> 00:36:25,104
There was a chest with two handles.
322
00:36:25,183 --> 00:36:28,187
We carried the bones there,
323
00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:34,493
where others had to crush them.
324
00:36:34,567 --> 00:36:37,320
It was very fine,
325
00:36:38,571 --> 00:36:41,415
that powdered bone.
326
00:36:41,491 --> 00:36:44,745
Then it was put into sacks,
327
00:36:45,578 --> 00:36:49,799
and when there were enough sacks,
328
00:36:49,874 --> 00:36:54,675
we went to a bridge on the Narew river
329
00:36:54,963 --> 00:36:57,512
and dumped the powder.
330
00:36:57,590 --> 00:36:59,388
The current carried it off.
331
00:37:01,803 --> 00:37:04,272
It drifted downstream.
332
00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:15,659
♪♪ [ Srebnik Singing In Polish: “Little White House”]
333
00:37:39,674 --> 00:37:41,642
[ Lanzmann, In English]
You never returned to Poland since?
334
00:37:41,718 --> 00:37:43,220
[ Woman, In English]
No.
335
00:37:43,845 --> 00:37:46,018
I wanted many times.
336
00:37:46,681 --> 00:37:50,436
But, what will I see?
337
00:37:53,730 --> 00:37:56,028
How can I face it?
338
00:38:00,779 --> 00:38:03,874
My grandparents are buried in Lodz.
339
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:08,416
And, at one point, I heard
from somebody that visited Poland
340
00:38:08,495 --> 00:38:12,250
that they want to level off the cemetery,
341
00:38:12,332 --> 00:38:14,426
do away with the cemetery.
342
00:38:14,501 --> 00:38:17,550
Now how can I return to that, to visit?
343
00:38:19,756 --> 00:38:22,350
[ Lanzmann ]
When did they die, your grandparents?
344
00:38:23,218 --> 00:38:25,346
- My grandparents?
- Mm-hmm.
345
00:38:25,637 --> 00:38:28,186
My grandparents died in the ghetto, quickly.
346
00:38:28,264 --> 00:38:31,017
They were elderly,
and within a couple years...
347
00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:32,602
Within a year, my grandfather died.
348
00:38:32,685 --> 00:38:34,483
- And my grandmother the next year.
- In the ghetto?
349
00:38:34,562 --> 00:38:36,405
In the ghetto, yes.
350
00:38:38,441 --> 00:38:42,537
PAULA BIREN - CINCINNATI U.S.A.
survivor of Auschwitz
351
00:38:49,619 --> 00:38:53,419
THE JEWISH CEMETERY
IN LODZ TODAY
352
00:38:56,584 --> 00:38:58,882
[Crows Cawing ]
353
00:39:24,153 --> 00:39:25,871
[Church Bells Ringing ]
354
00:39:25,947 --> 00:39:28,291
AUSCHWITZ: THE TOWN
355
00:39:29,075 --> 00:39:32,830
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Mrs. Pietryra, you live in Auschwitz?
356
00:39:33,538 --> 00:39:36,382
- [ Interpreter
- [ Pietra Replies In Polish]
357
00:39:36,457 --> 00:39:38,255
[ Interpreter
Yes, I was born here.
358
00:39:38,334 --> 00:39:40,336
[Lanzmann]
And you've never left Auschwitz?
359
00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:42,548
- [ Interpreter
- [Petertyra Replies]
360
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:44,257
No, never.
361
00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:47,219
[Lanzmann]
Were there Jews in Auschwitz before the war?
362
00:39:47,302 --> 00:39:49,930
[ Interpreter
363
00:39:50,471 --> 00:39:52,894
[ Pietra Replies ]
364
00:39:52,974 --> 00:39:55,568
They made up 80% of the population.
365
00:39:58,021 --> 00:39:59,739
[Speaking Polish]
366
00:39:59,814 --> 00:40:01,987
They even had a synagogue here.
367
00:40:02,066 --> 00:40:04,489
- [Lanzmann] Just one?
- [ Interpreter
368
00:40:06,112 --> 00:40:08,331
- Just one, I think.
- [ Lanzmann ] Does it still exist?
369
00:40:08,406 --> 00:40:10,329
[ Interpreter
370
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:15,087
No, it was wrecked.
371
00:40:15,163 --> 00:40:17,632
There's something else there now.
372
00:40:17,707 --> 00:40:20,005
[ Lanzmann ]
Was there a Jewish cemetery in Auschwitz?
373
00:40:20,084 --> 00:40:22,712
[ Interpreter
374
00:40:26,549 --> 00:40:30,144
It still exists. it's closed now.
375
00:40:30,219 --> 00:40:31,721
- It still exists?
- [ Interpreter
376
00:40:31,804 --> 00:40:32,805
Yes.
377
00:40:37,518 --> 00:40:38,986
[Lanzmann]
Closed? What does that mean?
378
00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:42,407
- [ Interpreter
- [Petertyra Replies]
379
00:40:42,482 --> 00:40:44,985
They don't bury there now.
380
00:40:46,527 --> 00:40:49,406
♪♪ [ Congregation Singing Polish Hymn]
381
00:41:05,171 --> 00:41:07,390
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Was there a synagogue in Wlodawa?
382
00:41:08,466 --> 00:41:10,764
- [ Interpreter
- [Speaking Polish]
383
00:41:10,843 --> 00:41:13,096
[ Interpreter
Yes, and it's very beautiful.
384
00:41:13,179 --> 00:41:18,106
I Polish 1
385
00:41:18,184 --> 00:41:21,154
When Poland was ruled by the czars,
386
00:41:21,229 --> 00:41:23,823
that synagogue already existed.
387
00:41:26,484 --> 00:41:30,159
It's even older than the Catholic church.
388
00:41:30,238 --> 00:41:34,539
♪♪ [ Continues, Faint]
389
00:41:59,183 --> 00:42:02,027
- [ Man Speaking Polish]
- It's no longer used.
390
00:42:02,103 --> 00:42:04,526
[ Man Continues]
391
00:42:04,605 --> 00:42:06,573
There's no one to go to it.
392
00:42:13,948 --> 00:42:16,667
[Lanzmann, In French]
These buildings haven't changed?
393
00:42:16,743 --> 00:42:22,716
- [ Interpreter
- [ Man Speaking Polish]
394
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:26,340
[ Interpreter
There were barrels of herrings here,
395
00:42:26,419 --> 00:42:28,046
and the Jews sold fish.
396
00:42:28,129 --> 00:42:29,927
[ Man Continues]
397
00:42:30,006 --> 00:42:32,885
There were stalls, small shops,
398
00:42:32,967 --> 00:42:35,937
Jewish business, as the gentleman says.
399
00:42:38,222 --> 00:42:41,647
- [ Man Continues]
- That's Barenholz's house.
400
00:42:41,726 --> 00:42:44,400
- [ Man Continues]
- He sold wood.
401
00:42:44,479 --> 00:42:50,737
[ Man Continues]
402
00:42:50,818 --> 00:42:53,241
Lipschitz's store was there.
He sold cloth.
403
00:42:53,321 --> 00:42:55,289
- [ Man Continues]
- [ Lanzmann ] This was Lichtenstein's.
404
00:42:55,364 --> 00:42:56,866
- Liechtenstein, yes.
- [ Interpreter
405
00:42:56,949 --> 00:42:59,372
- [ Lanzmann ] What was there, opposite?
- [ Interpreter
406
00:43:01,621 --> 00:43:03,749
A food store.
407
00:43:03,831 --> 00:43:06,334
- [Lanzmann] A Jewish store?
- [ Interpreter
408
00:43:06,417 --> 00:43:07,919
[ Interpreter
Oui.
409
00:43:09,796 --> 00:43:12,094
There was a notions shop here,
410
00:43:12,173 --> 00:43:15,848
it sold thread, needles, odds and ends,
411
00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:21,683
and there were also three barbers.
412
00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:25,273
MR. FILIPOWICZ
413
00:43:26,187 --> 00:43:28,281
- [ Lanzmann ] Was that fine house Jewish?
- [ Interpreter
414
00:43:28,356 --> 00:43:29,608
[ Filipowicz Replies]
415
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:31,488
- And this small one?
- [ Interpreter
416
00:43:31,567 --> 00:43:32,693
- [ Filipowicz Replies ]
- Also.
417
00:43:32,777 --> 00:43:35,405
- And the one behind it?
- [ Filipowicz Replies]
418
00:43:35,488 --> 00:43:36,956
These were all Jewish.
419
00:43:37,031 --> 00:43:39,079
- This one on the left, too?
- [ Interpreter
420
00:43:39,158 --> 00:43:42,037
- [ Filipowicz Replies]
- That one too.
421
00:43:43,329 --> 00:43:45,582
- [ Filipowicz Continues]
- [ Lanzmann ] Who lived in it? Borenstein?
422
00:43:45,665 --> 00:43:47,008
[ Filipowicz]
Borenstein.
423
00:43:47,083 --> 00:43:51,634
- [ Filipowicz Continues]
- He was in the cement business.
424
00:43:51,712 --> 00:43:54,261
He was very handsome, and cultivated.
425
00:43:55,883 --> 00:43:58,102
[ Filipowicz Continues ]
426
00:43:58,177 --> 00:44:01,351
Here there was a blacksmith
named Tepper.
427
00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:03,558
- [ Edit] Yes.
- [ Interpreter
428
00:44:04,684 --> 00:44:06,561
A shoemaker lived here.
429
00:44:06,644 --> 00:44:08,988
- [ Lanzmann ] What was his name?
- [ Interpreter
430
00:44:09,063 --> 00:44:10,610
- [ Filipowicz Replies]
- [ Lanzmann ] Yankel?
431
00:44:10,690 --> 00:44:12,363
- [ Filipowicz Replies]
- [ Interpreter
432
00:44:12,567 --> 00:44:15,537
[ Lanzmann ]
You get the feeling Wlodawa was a Jewish city.
433
00:44:15,611 --> 00:44:19,366
[ Interpreter
434
00:44:19,448 --> 00:44:21,416
- [ Filipowicz Replies]
- Yes, because it's true.
435
00:44:21,492 --> 00:44:22,994
[ Filipowicz Continues ]
436
00:44:23,077 --> 00:44:27,082
The Poles lived farther out,
the center was wholly Jewish.
437
00:44:28,958 --> 00:44:31,461
[ Lanzmann, In French]
What happened to the Jews of Auschwitz?
438
00:44:31,544 --> 00:44:37,472
- [ Interpreter
- [Petertyra Replies]
439
00:44:37,550 --> 00:44:40,679
They were expelled and resettled,
440
00:44:40,761 --> 00:44:42,855
but I don't know where.
441
00:44:42,930 --> 00:44:44,932
- [ Lanzmann ] What year was that?
- [ Interpreter
442
00:44:45,016 --> 00:44:48,236
[ Pietra Replies ]
443
00:44:48,311 --> 00:44:53,533
It began in 1940,
which was when I moved here.
444
00:44:53,608 --> 00:44:56,077
This apartment also belonged to Jews.
445
00:44:56,903 --> 00:45:00,533
[ Lanzmann ]
According to our information,
446
00:45:00,615 --> 00:45:05,041
the Auschwitz Jews
were “resettled,” as they say,
447
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:09,545
nearby, in Benzin
and Sosnowiec, in Upper Silesia.
448
00:45:12,001 --> 00:45:14,675
[ Interpreter
Yes, because those were Jewish towns.
449
00:45:14,754 --> 00:45:19,305
[ Lanzmann ] Does she know what happened
to the Jews of Auschwitz?
450
00:45:19,383 --> 00:45:22,637
[ Interpreter
451
00:45:25,097 --> 00:45:28,067
I think they all ended up in the camp.
452
00:45:28,184 --> 00:45:31,154
- [ Lanzmann ] That is, they returned to Auschwitz?
- [ Interpreter
453
00:45:31,938 --> 00:45:33,064
Oui.
454
00:45:35,441 --> 00:45:39,491
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
455
00:45:46,994 --> 00:45:52,296
[Petertyra Continues]
456
00:45:52,375 --> 00:45:57,723
All kinds of people from everywhere
were sent here.
457
00:45:58,464 --> 00:46:01,684
- [Petersburg Continues]
- All the Jews came here... to die.
458
00:46:10,059 --> 00:46:14,565
[ Lanzmann ] What did they think when
Wlodawa's Jews were all deported to Sobibor?
459
00:46:14,647 --> 00:46:16,991
[Speaking Polish]
460
00:46:17,525 --> 00:46:21,621
Wlodawa - Sobibor: 10 miles
461
00:46:28,536 --> 00:46:30,789
[ In French]
What could we think?
462
00:46:30,871 --> 00:46:36,753
That it was the end of them,
but they had foreseen that.
463
00:46:36,836 --> 00:46:38,383
[ Lanzmann ]
How so?
464
00:46:38,629 --> 00:46:40,222
[ Interpreter
465
00:46:54,854 --> 00:46:58,028
Even before the war,
when you talked to the Jews,
466
00:46:58,107 --> 00:46:59,950
they foresaw their doom.
467
00:47:00,026 --> 00:47:01,494
He doesn't know how.
468
00:47:01,569 --> 00:47:04,413
Even before the war,
they had a premonition.
469
00:47:14,707 --> 00:47:17,256
[Lanzmann]
How were they taken to Sobibor? On foot?
470
00:47:17,710 --> 00:47:19,678
[ Interpreter
471
00:47:19,754 --> 00:47:23,725
[ F ilipowicz Replies ]
472
00:47:23,799 --> 00:47:27,269
It was frightful.
He watched it himself.
473
00:47:27,345 --> 00:47:30,349
[ Filipowicz Continues]
474
00:47:30,431 --> 00:47:34,732
They were herded on foot
to a station called Orkrobek.
475
00:47:34,810 --> 00:47:37,654
[Train Clacking ]
476
00:47:38,356 --> 00:47:43,658
[ Filipowicz Continues]
477
00:47:43,736 --> 00:47:49,743
There, they put the old people first
into waiting cattle cars...
478
00:47:49,950 --> 00:47:52,703
[ Filipowicz Continues]
479
00:47:52,953 --> 00:47:55,001
then the younger Jews...
480
00:47:55,247 --> 00:47:58,717
[ Filipowicz Continues]
481
00:47:58,793 --> 00:48:01,046
and finally the kids.
482
00:48:01,128 --> 00:48:05,850
That was the worst:
They threw them on top of the others.
483
00:48:43,003 --> 00:48:45,381
[Lanzmann]
Were there a lot of Jews in Kolo?
484
00:48:45,464 --> 00:48:47,432
[ Interpreter
485
00:48:47,508 --> 00:48:49,806
- [ Man Speaking Polish]
- [ Interpreter
486
00:48:49,885 --> 00:48:53,515
- [ Man Continues]
- More Jews than Poles.
487
00:48:54,515 --> 00:48:57,519
[Lanzmann]
And what happened to the Kolo Jews?
488
00:48:57,601 --> 00:48:59,524
Was he an eyewitness?
489
00:49:00,104 --> 00:49:02,072
MR FALBORSKI
490
00:49:02,148 --> 00:49:04,196
[ Interpreter
491
00:49:04,275 --> 00:49:07,404
- [Speaking Polish]
- Yes. It was frightful.
492
00:49:24,003 --> 00:49:25,175
Frightful to see.
493
00:49:25,254 --> 00:49:28,133
Even the Germans hid,
they couldn't see that.
494
00:49:28,215 --> 00:49:32,641
When the Jews were herded
to the station, they were beaten,
495
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:34,188
some were even killed.
496
00:49:34,263 --> 00:49:39,815
A cart followed the convoy
to pick up the corpses.
497
00:49:40,227 --> 00:49:44,903
- [ Lanzmann ] Those who couldn't walk, the slain?
- Yes, those who'd fallen.
498
00:49:44,982 --> 00:49:48,486
- Where did this happen?
- [ Interpreter
499
00:50:07,588 --> 00:50:12,185
The Jews were collected
in the Kolo synagogue.
500
00:50:12,259 --> 00:50:15,513
Then they were herded to the station,
501
00:50:15,596 --> 00:50:19,646
where the narrow-gauge railroad
went to Chelmno.
502
00:50:28,067 --> 00:50:32,117
[ Lanzmann ] It happened to
all the Jews in the area, not just in Kolo?
503
00:50:33,113 --> 00:50:37,869
[ Interpreter
504
00:50:37,952 --> 00:50:39,545
[ Falborski Replies ]
505
00:50:39,620 --> 00:50:41,122
Absolutely.
506
00:50:41,622 --> 00:50:44,546
- Everywhere.
- [ F e/borsk/ Continues j
507
00:50:48,087 --> 00:50:50,715
Jews were also murdered
in the forests
508
00:50:50,798 --> 00:50:53,301
near Kalisz, not far from here.
509
00:51:05,396 --> 00:51:07,990
[ Locomotive Chugging ]
510
00:51:10,359 --> 00:51:13,158
[Train Whistle Blows]
511
00:53:14,108 --> 00:53:15,610
[ Man, In English]
There was a sign.
512
00:53:15,693 --> 00:53:20,574
There was a small sign
on the station of Treblinka.
513
00:53:21,365 --> 00:53:26,792
I don't know if we were at the station
or if we did not go up to the station.
514
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:28,872
ABRAHAM BOMBA - TEL AVIV, ISRAEL,
survivor of Treblinka
515
00:53:28,956 --> 00:53:31,379
On the line over there where we stayed,
516
00:53:31,458 --> 00:53:35,884
there was a small sign, very small sign,
which say “Treblinka.”
517
00:53:35,963 --> 00:53:40,935
That was the first time in my life
I heard about that name “Treblinka,”
518
00:53:41,009 --> 00:53:43,558
because nobody know.
519
00:53:44,054 --> 00:53:47,775
It is not a place.
There is not a city.
520
00:53:47,850 --> 00:53:50,774
Or it is not even a small village.
521
00:53:53,188 --> 00:53:57,238
TREBLINKA BY ROAD
522
00:53:59,528 --> 00:54:02,657
Jewish people always dreamed,
523
00:54:03,031 --> 00:54:05,329
and that was part of their life.
524
00:54:05,409 --> 00:54:07,503
It was part of their messiah...
525
00:54:07,578 --> 00:54:12,835
to dream that someday
they're going to be free.
526
00:54:14,084 --> 00:54:18,635
That dream was mostly true in the ghetto.
527
00:54:20,090 --> 00:54:22,639
Every day, every single night,
528
00:54:22,843 --> 00:54:25,972
I dreamed about a thing
that's going to be good.
529
00:54:27,806 --> 00:54:29,274
Not only the dream,
530
00:54:29,349 --> 00:54:33,570
but the hope conserved in a dream.
531
00:54:40,944 --> 00:54:44,994
The first transport from Czestochowa
532
00:54:45,073 --> 00:54:48,452
was sent away at the day
of the Yam lfijopur.
533
00:54:49,453 --> 00:54:54,334
The day before Sukkoth,
there was the second transport.
534
00:54:54,416 --> 00:54:56,714
I was together with them.
535
00:54:59,046 --> 00:55:03,893
I know, only in my heart I know,
that there's something that is not good,
536
00:55:03,967 --> 00:55:05,969
because, if they take children,
537
00:55:06,053 --> 00:55:08,647
if they take old people
and they send them away,
538
00:55:08,722 --> 00:55:10,895
that means it is not good.
539
00:55:11,266 --> 00:55:16,113
What they said is the y'd take them away
to a place where they would be working.
540
00:55:16,772 --> 00:55:18,649
But, on the other hand,
541
00:55:18,732 --> 00:55:22,953
an old woman or a little child
from a week or four weeks or five years,
542
00:55:23,028 --> 00:55:25,076
what is he going to work?
543
00:55:26,323 --> 00:55:29,702
That was a foolish thing,
but, still, we had no choice.
544
00:55:29,785 --> 00:55:31,662
We believed in that.
545
00:55:32,162 --> 00:55:33,664
[ Parking Brake Latches]
546
00:55:38,544 --> 00:55:40,046
[ Door Closes ]
547
00:55:53,058 --> 00:55:55,857
- [ Man Speaking Polish]
- [ Interpreter
548
00:55:55,936 --> 00:55:58,405
- [Man Continues]
- in 1923...
549
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,484
- [ Man Continues]
- and has been here even since.
550
00:56:03,819 --> 00:56:05,662
[ Lanzmann, In French]
He lived at this very spot?
551
00:56:05,737 --> 00:56:07,580
- Thank you. Yes.
- [ Interpreter
552
00:56:07,656 --> 00:56:10,751
[ Lanzmann] Then he had
a front-row seat for what happened.
553
00:56:10,826 --> 00:56:15,081
[ Interpreter
554
00:56:15,163 --> 00:56:17,916
- [ Man Replies]
- Naturally.
555
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,254
[ Man Continues]
556
00:56:21,336 --> 00:56:26,058
You could go up close
or watch from a distance.
557
00:56:27,009 --> 00:56:30,058
CZESLAW BOROWI
558
00:56:33,932 --> 00:56:36,936
They had land
on the far side of the station.
559
00:56:37,019 --> 00:56:40,398
To work it, he had to cross the track,
560
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,482
so he could see everything.
561
00:56:47,738 --> 00:56:52,585
[ Lanzmann ] Does he remember
the first convoy of Jews from Warsaw
562
00:56:52,659 --> 00:56:55,287
on July 22, 1942?
563
00:56:55,662 --> 00:56:57,130
[ Interpreter
564
00:56:57,205 --> 00:57:00,584
- [ Borowi Replies ]
- Yes.
565
00:57:00,667 --> 00:57:03,762
[ Borowi Continues ]
566
00:57:03,837 --> 00:57:06,090
He recalls the first convoy very well...
567
00:57:06,173 --> 00:57:07,800
[ Borowi Continues ]
568
00:57:07,883 --> 00:57:10,682
and when all those Jews
were brought here...
569
00:57:10,761 --> 00:57:15,267
[ Borowi Continues ]
570
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:18,853
people wondered,
“What's to be done with them?”
571
00:57:18,936 --> 00:57:21,860
[ Borowi Continues ]
572
00:57:21,939 --> 00:57:26,035
Clearly, they'd be killed,
but no one yet knew how.
573
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:42,551
When people began
to understand what was happening,
574
00:57:43,085 --> 00:57:44,587
they were appalled,
575
00:57:44,670 --> 00:57:49,847
and they commented privately
that since the world began,
576
00:57:49,925 --> 00:57:53,555
no one had ever murdered
so many people that way.
577
00:57:59,059 --> 00:58:02,484
[Lanzmann]
While all this was happening before their eyes,
578
00:58:02,562 --> 00:58:04,064
normal life went on?
579
00:58:04,147 --> 00:58:09,495
- They worked their fields?
- [ Interpreter
580
00:58:09,569 --> 00:58:13,119
[ Borowi Replies ]
581
00:58:29,297 --> 00:58:31,095
Certainly they worked,
582
00:58:31,174 --> 00:58:35,930
but not as willingly as usual.
583
00:58:36,596 --> 00:58:38,519
They had to work,
584
00:58:38,598 --> 00:58:41,192
but when they saw all this,
they thought,
585
00:58:41,268 --> 00:58:44,693
“What if our house is surrounded
and we're arrested?”
586
00:58:47,441 --> 00:58:49,785
[ Lanzmann ]
Were they afraid for the Jews, too?
587
00:59:21,808 --> 00:59:23,731
Well, he says it's this way:
588
00:59:23,810 --> 00:59:28,407
If I cut my finger, it doesn't hurt him.
589
00:59:28,482 --> 00:59:30,826
They saw what happened to the Jews:
590
00:59:30,901 --> 00:59:35,532
The convoy came in
and then went to the camp,
591
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:38,579
and the people vanished.
592
00:59:39,076 --> 00:59:40,999
I Polish 1
593
00:59:41,078 --> 00:59:45,424
[ Interpreter
He had a field less than 100 yards from the camp.
594
00:59:45,499 --> 00:59:47,922
[Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
595
00:59:48,001 --> 00:59:50,800
[ Interpreter
during the German occupation.
596
00:59:50,879 --> 00:59:53,302
- [ Lanzmann ] He worked his field?
- [ Interpreter
597
00:59:53,965 --> 00:59:58,516
He saw how they were asphyxiated,
598
00:59:58,595 --> 01:00:01,940
he heard them scream, he saw that.
599
01:00:02,015 --> 01:00:06,521
There's a small hill:
He could see quite a bit.
600
01:00:08,355 --> 01:00:10,858
- [ Polish Men All Laughing ]
- [ Lanzmann ] What did he say?
601
01:00:10,941 --> 01:00:12,693
[ Interpreter
602
01:00:14,569 --> 01:00:17,288
They couldn't stop and watch.
603
01:00:17,781 --> 01:00:20,785
It was forbidden.
The Ukrainians shot at them.
604
01:00:20,867 --> 01:00:25,043
[ Lanzmann ] But they could work a field
100 yards from the camp?
605
01:00:25,122 --> 01:00:26,795
[ Interpreter
606
01:00:26,873 --> 01:00:29,797
They could.
607
01:00:30,127 --> 01:00:33,347
- So occasionally he could steal a glance...
- [Lanzmann] Yes.
608
01:00:33,421 --> 01:00:35,674
If the Ukrainians weren't looking.
609
01:00:35,757 --> 01:00:40,729
- [ Lanzmann ] He worked with his eyes lowered?
- [ Interpreter
610
01:00:41,429 --> 01:00:42,681
Yes.
611
01:00:42,764 --> 01:00:47,144
I Polish 1
612
01:00:47,227 --> 01:00:51,073
He worked by the barbed wire
and heard awful screams.
613
01:00:51,148 --> 01:00:54,072
- [ Lanzmann ] His field was there?
- [ Interpreter
614
01:00:55,026 --> 01:00:56,903
Yes, right up close.
615
01:00:58,071 --> 01:01:00,494
It wasn't forbidden to work there.
616
01:01:01,449 --> 01:01:04,999
- [ Lanzmann ] So he worked, he farmed there?
- [ Interpreter
617
01:01:08,540 --> 01:01:09,792
Yes.
618
01:01:10,750 --> 01:01:14,755
Where the camp is now
was partly his field.
619
01:01:14,838 --> 01:01:17,091
[Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
620
01:01:17,757 --> 01:01:20,260
[ Interpreter
621
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:30,024
It was off limits,
but they heard everything.
622
01:01:30,103 --> 01:01:33,357
[ Lanzmann ] It didn't bother him to work
so near those screams?
623
01:01:33,648 --> 01:01:37,824
[ Interpreter
624
01:01:42,449 --> 01:01:45,999
At first it was unbearable.
Then you got used to it.
625
01:01:46,453 --> 01:01:49,957
- [ Lanzmann ] You get used to anything?
- [ Interpreter
626
01:01:52,125 --> 01:01:53,422
Yes.
627
01:01:56,504 --> 01:02:00,225
Now he thinks... it's impossible.
628
01:02:00,300 --> 01:02:01,973
Yet it was true.
629
01:02:27,327 --> 01:02:30,171
[ Interpreter
630
01:02:30,830 --> 01:02:33,674
So he saw the convoys arriving.
631
01:02:34,167 --> 01:02:38,388
There were 60 to 80 cars
in each convoy,
632
01:02:38,672 --> 01:02:41,516
and there were two locomotives
633
01:02:41,591 --> 01:02:45,437
that took the convoys into the camp,
634
01:02:45,512 --> 01:02:49,483
taking 20 cars at a time.
635
01:02:50,350 --> 01:02:52,853
And the cars came back empty?
636
01:02:52,936 --> 01:02:55,064
[Speaking Polish]
637
01:02:56,231 --> 01:02:58,108
- Yes.
- Does he remember...?
638
01:03:02,862 --> 01:03:04,409
Here's how it happened:
639
01:03:04,698 --> 01:03:07,201
The locomotive picked up 20 cars
640
01:03:08,910 --> 01:03:10,878
and took them to the camp.
641
01:03:11,204 --> 01:03:14,708
That took maybe an hour,
642
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:22,724
and the empty cars came back here.
643
01:03:22,799 --> 01:03:24,927
Then the next 20 cars were taken,
644
01:03:25,010 --> 01:03:29,561
and meanwhile, the people
in the first 20 were already dead.
645
01:03:41,401 --> 01:03:43,119
[ Man Speaking Polish]
646
01:03:43,194 --> 01:03:45,162
[ Interpreter
They waited, they wept...
647
01:03:45,238 --> 01:03:49,243
- [ Man Continues]
- they asked for water, they died.
648
01:03:49,743 --> 01:03:51,211
[ Man Continues]
649
01:03:51,286 --> 01:03:57,384
Sometimes they were naked
in the cars, up to 170 people.
650
01:03:58,168 --> 01:03:59,841
[ Man
651
01:03:59,919 --> 01:04:02,342
This is where they gave
the Jews water, he says.
652
01:04:02,422 --> 01:04:03,924
[Lanzmann]
Where was that?
653
01:04:04,007 --> 01:04:05,680
[ Interpreter
654
01:04:05,759 --> 01:04:06,726
- [ Polish ]
- Here.
655
01:04:06,801 --> 01:04:10,681
When the convoys arrived,
they gave water to the Jews.
656
01:04:10,764 --> 01:04:13,358
- [ Lanzmann ] Who gave the Jews water?
- [ Interpreter
657
01:04:14,768 --> 01:04:16,770
We did, the Poles.
658
01:04:18,021 --> 01:04:22,151
There was a tiny well,
we took a bottle and...
659
01:04:22,275 --> 01:04:26,325
- [ Lanzmann] Wasn't it dangerous to give them
water? - [ Interpreter
660
01:04:26,946 --> 01:04:28,573
Very dangerous.
661
01:04:33,203 --> 01:04:38,380
You could be killed
for giving a glass of water.
662
01:04:38,458 --> 01:04:41,428
But we gave them water anyway.
663
01:04:46,132 --> 01:04:48,510
[Lanzmann]
Is it very cold here in winter?
664
01:04:48,593 --> 01:04:51,437
- [ Interpreter
- [ Man Replies In Polish]
665
01:04:51,513 --> 01:04:55,518
- It depends.
- [ Man Continues]
666
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,103
It can get to minus 15, minus 20.
667
01:05:01,314 --> 01:05:04,739
[ Lanzmann ] Which was harder on the Jews,
summer or winter?
668
01:05:04,818 --> 01:05:10,166
- Waiting here, I mean.
- [ Interpreter
669
01:05:10,824 --> 01:05:16,081
[ Man Replies ]
670
01:05:16,162 --> 01:05:18,415
He thinks winter,
because they were very cold.
671
01:05:18,498 --> 01:05:22,128
[ Man Continues]
672
01:05:23,753 --> 01:05:28,475
They were so packed in the cars,
maybe they weren't cold.
673
01:05:29,551 --> 01:05:34,182
- [ Man Continues]
- In summer they stifled: It was very hot.
674
01:05:35,181 --> 01:05:38,185
The Jews were very thirsty.
They tried to get out.
675
01:05:42,689 --> 01:05:45,613
[ Lanzmann ] Were there corpses
in the cars on arrival?
676
01:05:45,692 --> 01:05:52,371
[ Interpreter
677
01:05:52,949 --> 01:05:54,451
Obviously.
678
01:05:55,201 --> 01:05:56,703
Oui.
679
01:06:08,131 --> 01:06:09,633
They were so packed in
680
01:06:09,716 --> 01:06:14,222
that even those still alive
sat on corpses for lack of space.
681
01:06:17,223 --> 01:06:20,443
[ Lanzmann ] Didn't people here
who went by the trains
682
01:06:20,518 --> 01:06:23,237
look through the cracks in the cars?
683
01:06:23,605 --> 01:06:31,205
[ Interpreter
684
01:06:32,572 --> 01:06:36,076
Yes, they could look in sometimes
as they went by.
685
01:06:39,871 --> 01:06:43,501
When they were allowed,
they gave them water, too.
686
01:06:43,583 --> 01:06:46,462
[ Launch] Yes.
How did the Jews try to get out?
687
01:06:46,544 --> 01:06:49,013
The doors weren't opened.
How'd they get out?
688
01:06:49,088 --> 01:06:52,433
[ Interpreter
689
01:06:53,301 --> 01:06:56,475
- Through the windows.
- [Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
690
01:06:58,056 --> 01:07:00,354
- They removed the barbed wire...
- [ Repeats Phrase]
691
01:07:00,433 --> 01:07:01,685
- Yes.
- Yes?
692
01:07:01,768 --> 01:07:03,395
- and came out of the windows.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
693
01:07:03,478 --> 01:07:05,151
They jumped, of course.
694
01:07:10,777 --> 01:07:15,499
Sometimes they just deliberately
sat down on the ground,
695
01:07:15,990 --> 01:07:20,621
and the guards came
and shot them in the head.
696
01:07:21,788 --> 01:07:23,506
I Polish 1
697
01:07:31,297 --> 01:07:35,302
They jumped from the cars...
What a sight!
698
01:07:36,344 --> 01:07:38,142
Jumping from the windows.
699
01:07:40,139 --> 01:07:43,109
There was a mother and child.
700
01:07:43,184 --> 01:07:45,357
- [ Lanzmann ] Jewish?
- Yes.
701
01:07:45,436 --> 01:07:47,188
She tried to run away,
702
01:07:47,647 --> 01:07:51,197
and they shot her in the heart.
703
01:07:54,779 --> 01:07:57,498
- Shot who... the mother?
- Yes, the mother.
704
01:07:59,951 --> 01:08:04,502
This gentleman has lived here
a long time, he can't forget.
705
01:08:15,675 --> 01:08:18,895
He says that now he can't understand
706
01:08:18,970 --> 01:08:23,521
how a man can do that
to another human being.
707
01:08:24,350 --> 01:08:26,569
It's inconceivable,
beyond understanding.
708
01:08:29,022 --> 01:08:32,367
Once when the Jews asked for water,
a Ukrainian went by
709
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:35,361
and forbade giving any.
710
01:08:38,281 --> 01:08:41,626
The Jewish woman
that had asked for water...
711
01:08:41,701 --> 01:08:46,502
threw her pot at his head.
712
01:08:46,581 --> 01:08:48,549
- Oui.
- Alors...
713
01:08:56,007 --> 01:09:00,137
The Ukrainian moved back,
714
01:09:00,928 --> 01:09:05,525
maybe ten yards,
and opened fire on the car.
715
01:09:06,726 --> 01:09:09,605
Blood and brains
were all over the place.
716
01:09:09,687 --> 01:09:12,907
[ Borowi Speaking Polish]
717
01:09:12,982 --> 01:09:15,485
[ Interpreter
Lots of people opened the doors...
718
01:09:15,568 --> 01:09:18,321
[ Borowi Continues ]
719
01:09:18,404 --> 01:09:20,657
or escaped through the windows.
720
01:09:20,740 --> 01:09:23,789
[ Borowi Continues ]
721
01:09:23,868 --> 01:09:29,500
Sometimes the Ukrainians
fired through the car walls.
722
01:09:58,111 --> 01:10:00,614
[ Interpreter
723
01:10:02,281 --> 01:10:03,783
It happened chiefly at night.
724
01:10:03,866 --> 01:10:08,121
When the Jews talked to each other,
as he showed us,
725
01:10:08,204 --> 01:10:12,550
the Ukrainians wanted things quiet,
726
01:10:12,625 --> 01:10:15,925
and they asked...
yes, asked them to shut up.
727
01:10:16,003 --> 01:10:20,554
So the Jews shut up
and the guard moved off.
728
01:10:20,633 --> 01:10:24,388
Then the Jews started talking again,
in their language,
729
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:26,347
as he says, ra-ra-ra, and so on.
730
01:10:26,431 --> 01:10:30,902
What's he mean, la-la-la?
What's he trying to imitate?
731
01:10:30,977 --> 01:10:33,321
- Their language.
- No, ask him.
732
01:10:37,483 --> 01:10:39,861
Was the Jews' noise something special?
733
01:10:40,987 --> 01:10:42,955
- They spoke Jew.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
734
01:10:43,030 --> 01:10:44,327
Oui.
735
01:10:44,407 --> 01:10:47,911
- Does Mr. Borowi understand “Jew”?
- [ Interpreter
736
01:10:47,994 --> 01:10:49,246
No.
737
01:10:49,328 --> 01:10:51,751
[Train Clacking ]
738
01:10:55,835 --> 01:10:57,712
[ Bomba, In English]
We were in that wagon.
739
01:10:57,795 --> 01:11:03,518
The wagon was rolling, rolling
in the direction east.
740
01:11:05,511 --> 01:11:08,355
A funny thing happened right there.
741
01:11:08,431 --> 01:11:11,526
Maybe it's not nice to say,
but I will say it.
742
01:11:11,809 --> 01:11:16,360
Most of the people, not only most,
but 99% of the Polish people,
743
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:18,737
when they saw the train going through...
744
01:11:18,816 --> 01:11:22,366
We looked really like animals in that wagon,
745
01:11:22,862 --> 01:11:25,581
just our eyes looked outside.
746
01:11:25,656 --> 01:11:29,081
And they were laughing,
and they were all...
747
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:32,755
They had a joy,
because they took the Jewish people away.
748
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:38,800
What was going on in the wagon
between the people,
749
01:11:38,878 --> 01:11:41,427
and the pushing and the screaming...
750
01:11:41,506 --> 01:11:44,305
“Where is my child?”
and, “Where is my this?”
751
01:11:44,383 --> 01:11:46,135
and “A little bit Of water!”
752
01:11:46,219 --> 01:11:52,022
And people were not only starving,
but they were choking.
753
01:11:52,892 --> 01:11:55,065
It was hot.
It happened... Just it happened...
754
01:11:55,144 --> 01:11:56,646
The Jewish luck...
755
01:11:56,729 --> 01:12:01,075
in September, at that time,
usually when it is rainy, when it is cool,
756
01:12:01,150 --> 01:12:04,404
that it was hot like hell.
757
01:12:04,904 --> 01:12:06,577
We had nothing inside.
758
01:12:06,656 --> 01:12:11,162
For a child, you know, like my own child
about the age of three weeks,
759
01:12:11,244 --> 01:12:13,212
there was not a drop of water.
760
01:12:13,287 --> 01:12:18,009
There wasn't a drop of water for the mother,
but there wasn't a drop of water for anybody else.
761
01:12:23,589 --> 01:12:27,093
[Whistle Blows]
762
01:12:32,974 --> 01:12:36,148
[ Lanzmann, In French]
Did he hear screams behind his locomotive?
763
01:12:36,227 --> 01:12:38,150
[Whistle Blows]
764
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:41,233
[ Interpreter
765
01:12:41,315 --> 01:12:43,659
[ Man Replies In Polish ]
766
01:12:43,734 --> 01:12:48,331
Obviously, since the locomotive
was next to the camp.
767
01:12:48,406 --> 01:12:50,955
They screamed, asked for water.
768
01:12:51,242 --> 01:12:58,376
[ Man Continues]
769
01:12:58,457 --> 01:13:03,213
The screams from the cars
closest to the locomotive
770
01:13:03,296 --> 01:13:05,924
could be heard very well.
771
01:13:09,886 --> 01:13:11,729
[Lanzmann]
Can one get used to that?
772
01:13:11,804 --> 01:13:14,978
[ Interpreter
773
01:13:15,308 --> 01:13:18,232
[ Man Replies ]
774
01:13:18,311 --> 01:13:19,358
No.
775
01:13:19,729 --> 01:13:23,404
[ Man Continues]
776
01:13:23,482 --> 01:13:26,326
It was extremely distressing to him.
777
01:13:26,402 --> 01:13:30,908
He knew that the people behind him
were human, like him.
778
01:13:30,990 --> 01:13:38,169
- [Whistle Blows]
- [Man Continues]
779
01:13:38,247 --> 01:13:44,926
The Germans gave him
and the other workers vodka to drink.
780
01:13:45,004 --> 01:13:47,223
Without drinking,
they couldn't have done it.
781
01:13:47,298 --> 01:13:54,273
[ Man Continues]
782
01:13:54,347 --> 01:13:56,145
There was a bonus...
783
01:13:56,223 --> 01:14:00,729
[ Man Continues]
784
01:14:00,811 --> 01:14:04,566
that they were paid
not in money, but in liquor.
785
01:14:04,649 --> 01:14:07,698
[ Man Continues]
786
01:14:07,777 --> 01:14:11,532
Those who worked on other trains
didn't get this bonus.
787
01:14:11,781 --> 01:14:14,034
[Whistle Blows]
788
01:14:14,992 --> 01:14:18,371
HENRIK GAWKOWSKI
789
01:14:25,211 --> 01:14:28,465
He drank every drop he got
790
01:14:28,547 --> 01:14:33,474
because without liquor
he couldn't stand the stench
791
01:14:33,552 --> 01:14:35,520
when he got here.
792
01:14:35,596 --> 01:14:39,976
They even bought more liquor
on their own
793
01:14:40,226 --> 01:14:42,228
to get drunk on.
794
01:14:54,198 --> 01:14:55,700
[ Bomba ]
We arrived in the morning.
795
01:14:55,783 --> 01:14:59,788
We arrived, I would say,
about 6:00, maybe 6:30.
796
01:15:00,579 --> 01:15:03,583
On the other side of the tracks,
797
01:15:04,083 --> 01:15:08,338
I saw more trains standing there,
798
01:15:10,297 --> 01:15:12,891
and I was watching through...
799
01:15:13,092 --> 01:15:19,771
I saw about 18, 20, maybe more,
wagons going away.
800
01:15:21,267 --> 01:15:24,362
And after about an hour or so,
801
01:15:24,437 --> 01:15:29,193
I saw the wagons coming back,
but without the people.
802
01:15:40,161 --> 01:15:46,794
My train stayed there until about 12:00.
803
01:15:50,796 --> 01:15:55,427
[ Lanzmann ] From the station
to the unloading ramp in the camp,
804
01:15:55,509 --> 01:15:57,227
how many miles?
805
01:15:57,303 --> 01:16:06,314
[ Interpreter
806
01:16:10,608 --> 01:16:11,609
Four.
807
01:16:21,202 --> 01:16:24,251
[ Bomba ] While we stayed there,
at that station over there,
808
01:16:24,330 --> 01:16:28,335
waiting to go in Treblinka camp,
809
01:16:29,210 --> 01:16:32,430
some of those German SS,
they came around,
810
01:16:32,797 --> 01:16:35,721
and they were asking us what we have.
811
01:16:36,759 --> 01:16:38,261
So we said, “We got...
812
01:16:38,344 --> 01:16:42,565
Some of the people, they have, uh, gold.
813
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:44,813
They have diamonds.
814
01:16:44,892 --> 01:16:47,190
But we want water.”
815
01:16:49,021 --> 01:16:50,568
So they said, “Good.
816
01:16:50,648 --> 01:16:53,197
Give us the diamonds,
we bring you water.”
817
01:16:54,693 --> 01:16:58,288
Yeah, they took away.
They didn't bring any water at all.
818
01:17:04,537 --> 01:17:06,414
[ Lanzmann, In English]
How long did last the trip?
819
01:17:06,497 --> 01:17:12,220
The trip lasted
from Czestochowa to Treblinka
820
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:15,218
about 24 hours,
821
01:17:15,714 --> 01:17:18,888
with interruption waiting in Warsaw
822
01:17:18,968 --> 01:17:22,814
and also waiting at Treblinka
to go into Treblinka.
823
01:17:23,055 --> 01:17:25,103
ABRAHAM BOM BA
824
01:17:25,391 --> 01:17:28,486
At the last train, we went in over there.
825
01:17:29,061 --> 01:17:31,155
But, like I mentioned before,
826
01:17:31,230 --> 01:17:33,574
I saw many trains coming back,
827
01:17:33,649 --> 01:17:36,198
but the trains were without the people.
828
01:17:36,569 --> 01:17:39,994
So I said to myself,
“What happened to the people?
829
01:17:40,072 --> 01:17:43,076
We don't see any people,
just trains coming back.”
830
01:17:43,159 --> 01:17:45,161
[Train Clacking ]
831
01:17:49,165 --> 01:17:51,634
[ Glazar, In German]
We traveled for two days.
832
01:17:53,043 --> 01:17:55,387
On the morning of the second day
833
01:17:55,462 --> 01:18:00,059
we saw that
we had left Czechoslovakia
834
01:18:00,134 --> 01:18:04,810
and were heading east.
835
01:18:05,389 --> 01:18:08,768
[Train Whistle Blows]
836
01:18:09,602 --> 01:18:13,232
It wasn't the SS guarding us,
837
01:18:13,606 --> 01:18:17,656
but the Schutzpolizei,
838
01:18:17,735 --> 01:18:20,454
the police, in green uniforms.
839
01:18:23,616 --> 01:18:26,870
We were in ordinary passenger cars.
840
01:18:26,952 --> 01:18:28,954
All the seats were filled.
841
01:18:30,164 --> 01:18:32,508
You c0uldn't choose.
842
01:18:32,583 --> 01:18:35,336
They were all numbered and assigned.
843
01:18:37,379 --> 01:18:41,725
In my compartment
there was an elderly couple.
844
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:43,598
I still remember:
845
01:18:43,677 --> 01:18:49,605
The good man was always hungry
and his wife scolded him,
846
01:18:49,683 --> 01:18:56,282
saying the y'd have no food lefi
for the future.
847
01:18:57,483 --> 01:19:00,407
RICHARD GLAZAR
848
01:19:00,486 --> 01:19:02,079
[Whistle Blows]
849
01:19:02,905 --> 01:19:06,079
Then, on the second day,
850
01:19:06,325 --> 01:19:09,420
I saw a sign for Malkinia.
851
01:19:09,828 --> 01:19:12,001
We went on a little farther.
852
01:19:12,498 --> 01:19:17,425
Then, very slowly,
853
01:19:17,503 --> 01:19:21,428
the train turned off the main track
854
01:19:21,507 --> 01:19:25,853
and rolled at' a walking pace
through a wood.
855
01:19:25,928 --> 01:19:28,807
While he looked out,
856
01:19:29,682 --> 01:19:32,401
we'd been able to open a window.
857
01:19:32,476 --> 01:19:36,447
The old man
in our compartment saw a boy...
858
01:19:36,522 --> 01:19:40,072
Cows were grazing...
859
01:19:40,317 --> 01:19:44,163
And he asked the boy in signs,
860
01:19:44,238 --> 01:19:46,616
“Where are we?”
861
01:19:47,533 --> 01:19:50,537
And the kid made a funny gesture. This!
862
01:19:51,453 --> 01:19:53,171
Across the throat.
863
01:19:55,749 --> 01:19:57,968
- [ Lanzmann, In German ] A Pole?
- A Pole.
864
01:19:58,043 --> 01:20:00,387
Where was this? At the station?
865
01:20:00,462 --> 01:20:06,344
It was where the train had stopped.
866
01:20:06,427 --> 01:20:08,304
On one side was the wood,
867
01:20:08,387 --> 01:20:11,436
and on the other were fields.
868
01:20:11,515 --> 01:20:13,813
And there was a farmer in a field?
869
01:20:13,892 --> 01:20:16,941
We saw cows
870
01:20:17,021 --> 01:20:20,776
watched over by a young man,
871
01:20:20,858 --> 01:20:25,864
a farmhand.
872
01:20:26,196 --> 01:20:28,290
And one of you questioned him?
873
01:20:28,365 --> 01:20:35,169
Not in words, but in signs, we asked,
“What's going on here?”
874
01:20:35,247 --> 01:20:38,251
And he made that gesture. Like this.
875
01:20:40,252 --> 01:20:43,256
We didn't really
876
01:20:44,173 --> 01:20:47,052
pay much attention to him.
877
01:20:47,134 --> 01:20:49,512
We couldn't figure out what he meant.
878
01:20:49,595 --> 01:20:51,893
[ Dog Barking ]
879
01:21:01,899 --> 01:21:09,204
[ Man Speaking Polish]
880
01:21:09,281 --> 01:21:11,875
[ Interpreter
Once there were foreign Jews...
881
01:21:12,409 --> 01:21:14,207
They were this fat...
882
01:21:14,495 --> 01:21:16,213
[Lanzmann, In French]
This fat?
883
01:21:16,288 --> 01:21:19,292
[ Interpreter
Riding in passenger cars.
884
01:21:19,541 --> 01:21:22,545
There was a dining car,
they could drink
885
01:21:22,628 --> 01:21:24,926
and walk around, too.
886
01:21:25,381 --> 01:21:28,976
They said they were going to a factory.
887
01:21:29,218 --> 01:21:33,769
On arrival, they saw
what kind of a factory it was.
888
01:21:33,847 --> 01:21:37,897
[ Men Speaking Polish]
889
01:21:37,976 --> 01:21:39,569
We'd gesture...
890
01:21:39,645 --> 01:21:42,364
- [Lanzmann] Gesture how?
- [ Interpreter
891
01:21:43,565 --> 01:21:45,408
That they'd be killed.
892
01:21:45,484 --> 01:21:47,157
[ Lanzmann ]
These people made that sign?
893
01:21:47,236 --> 01:21:49,330
He says the Jews didn't believe it.
894
01:21:49,405 --> 01:21:51,658
[ Lanzmann ]
But what does that gesture mean?
895
01:21:52,533 --> 01:21:54,535
[ Interpreter
896
01:21:54,618 --> 01:21:56,791
That death awaited them.
897
01:22:09,007 --> 01:22:12,181
The people who had a chance
to get near the Jews
898
01:22:12,261 --> 01:22:14,559
did that to warn them...
899
01:22:14,638 --> 01:22:17,391
- [ Lanzmann ] He did it too?
- That they'd be hanged, killed, slain.
900
01:22:17,474 --> 01:22:18,942
[ Interpreter
901
01:22:19,017 --> 01:22:20,394
Yes.
902
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:27,444
Even foreign Jews
from Belgium, Czechoslovakia,
903
01:22:27,526 --> 01:22:29,870
from France too, surely.
904
01:22:31,029 --> 01:22:32,702
And from Holland...
905
01:22:35,284 --> 01:22:36,877
These didn't know,
906
01:22:44,460 --> 01:22:48,055
but the Polish Jews knew.
907
01:22:48,130 --> 01:22:53,887
In the small cities in the area,
908
01:22:54,094 --> 01:22:55,311
it was talked about.
909
01:22:55,387 --> 01:22:59,483
So the Polish Jews were forewarned,
but not the others.
910
01:22:59,558 --> 01:23:02,562
Who'd they warn,
Polish Jews or the others?
911
01:23:08,567 --> 01:23:11,366
All the Jews.
912
01:23:35,093 --> 01:23:36,561
[ Interpreter
913
01:23:36,637 --> 01:23:40,187
He says the foreign Jews
arrived here in passenger cars,
914
01:23:40,265 --> 01:23:42,768
they were well dressed, in white shirts,
915
01:23:42,851 --> 01:23:47,231
there were flowers in the cars,
and they played cards.
916
01:23:48,232 --> 01:23:52,282
[Lanzmann, In French]
From what I know, that was very rare,
917
01:23:52,528 --> 01:23:55,998
Jews shipped in passenger cars.
918
01:23:56,073 --> 01:23:59,873
Most arrived in cattle cars.
919
01:23:59,952 --> 01:24:02,626
[ Interpreter
920
01:24:15,133 --> 01:24:17,056
It's not true.
921
01:24:17,135 --> 01:24:18,853
- [ Interpreter
- [ Lanzmann ] it's not true?
922
01:24:18,929 --> 01:24:21,057
[Woman Speaking Polish]
923
01:24:22,432 --> 01:24:24,230
[ Lanzmann ]
What did Mrs. Gawkowska say?
924
01:24:24,309 --> 01:24:28,064
[ Interpreter
She said he may not have seen everything.
925
01:24:28,146 --> 01:24:29,147
[ Lanzmann ]
Oui.
926
01:24:29,982 --> 01:24:32,110
[ Interpreter
He says he did.
927
01:24:59,303 --> 01:25:02,432
Once, at the Malkinia station,
for example,
928
01:25:02,514 --> 01:25:05,859
a foreign Jew left the train
929
01:25:05,934 --> 01:25:08,278
to buy something at the bar.
930
01:25:08,770 --> 01:25:13,992
The train pulled out
and he ran after it...
931
01:25:14,067 --> 01:25:15,740
[ Lanzmann ]
To catch up to it.
932
01:25:15,819 --> 01:25:16,820
[ Interpreter
Oui.
933
01:25:17,195 --> 01:25:22,417
So he went past these “Pullmans,”
as he calls them,
934
01:25:22,492 --> 01:25:27,623
those Jews who were calm, unsuspecting,
935
01:25:27,706 --> 01:25:30,209
and he made that gesture to them.
936
01:25:30,292 --> 01:25:33,341
[Speaking Polish]
937
01:25:39,718 --> 01:25:40,890
Oui.
938
01:25:41,595 --> 01:25:43,814
To all the Jews, in principle.
939
01:25:43,889 --> 01:25:46,642
He just went along the platform.
Ask him.
940
01:25:53,774 --> 01:25:58,075
Yes. The road was as it is now.
941
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:04,660
When the guard wasn't looking,
942
01:26:04,910 --> 01:26:07,379
he made that gesture.
943
01:26:12,376 --> 01:26:15,926
[ Lanzmann ]
Ask Mr. Gawkowski why he looks so sad.
944
01:26:16,171 --> 01:26:19,175
[ Interpreter
945
01:26:24,930 --> 01:26:27,774
Because I saw men
marching to their death.
946
01:26:30,727 --> 01:26:32,946
[ Lanzmann ]
Precisely where are we now?
947
01:26:33,021 --> 01:26:35,740
[ Interpreter
948
01:26:42,614 --> 01:26:47,495
It's not far...
a mile and a half from here.
949
01:26:47,577 --> 01:26:49,545
- [ Lanzmann ] What, the camp?
- Oui.
950
01:26:49,621 --> 01:26:51,464
[ Interpreter
951
01:26:51,707 --> 01:26:53,209
Oui.
952
01:26:55,293 --> 01:26:58,968
[ Lanzmann ]
What's that dirt road he's indicating?
953
01:27:02,175 --> 01:27:05,725
[ Interpreter
954
01:27:07,973 --> 01:27:11,147
That's where the rail line
into the camp was.
955
01:27:29,327 --> 01:27:33,173
[ Lanzmann ] Did Mr. Gawkowski,
aside from the trains of deponees
956
01:27:33,248 --> 01:27:38,880
he drove from Warsaw or Bialystok
to the Treblinka station...
957
01:27:38,962 --> 01:27:43,513
Did he ever drive the deportee cars
958
01:27:43,592 --> 01:27:46,516
into the camp
from the Treblinka station?
959
01:27:47,471 --> 01:27:50,065
[ Interpreter
960
01:28:00,025 --> 01:28:01,277
- [ Gawkowski] 'Yak.
- Yes.
961
01:28:01,359 --> 01:28:02,576
'Yak.
962
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:04,788
[Lanzmann]
Did he do it often?
963
01:28:04,863 --> 01:28:07,036
[ Interpreter
964
01:28:07,115 --> 01:28:08,958
[ Gawkowski Replies ]
965
01:28:09,034 --> 01:28:11,708
Two or three times a week.
966
01:28:12,454 --> 01:28:15,207
- [ Lanzmann ] Over how long a period?
- [ Interpreter
967
01:28:15,665 --> 01:28:18,635
[ Gawkowski Replies ]
968
01:28:18,710 --> 01:28:20,929
Around a year and a half.
969
01:28:21,213 --> 01:28:24,342
[ Lanzmann] That is,
throughout the camp's existence?
970
01:28:24,424 --> 01:28:26,802
[ Interpreter
971
01:28:26,885 --> 01:28:28,307
- [ Gawkowski] 'Yak.
- Yes.
972
01:28:28,386 --> 01:28:30,059
'Yak.
973
01:29:04,673 --> 01:29:07,392
- [ Lanzmann] This is the ramp.
- [ Interpreter
974
01:29:07,759 --> 01:29:10,729
Here he is, he goes
to the end with his locomotive,
975
01:29:10,804 --> 01:29:14,058
and he has the 20 cars behind him.
976
01:29:14,766 --> 01:29:20,239
[ Interpreter
977
01:29:20,313 --> 01:29:23,192
No, they're in front of him.
978
01:29:23,275 --> 01:29:25,903
- He pushed them?
- [ Interpreter
979
01:29:25,986 --> 01:29:29,115
- That's right, he pushed them.
- [Lanzmann Repeats Phrase]
980
01:29:29,739 --> 01:29:30,740
[ Interpreter
Oui.
981
01:30:12,657 --> 01:30:19,256
[ Piwonski Speaking Polish]
982
01:30:26,171 --> 01:30:28,265
[ Interpreter
In February 1942,
983
01:30:28,340 --> 01:30:31,469
I began working here
as an assistant switchman.
984
01:30:33,053 --> 01:30:36,398
[ Lanzmann]
The station building, the rails, the platforms
985
01:30:36,473 --> 01:30:39,522
are just as they were in 1942?
986
01:30:39,601 --> 01:30:44,732
- Nothing's changed?
- [ Interpreter
987
01:30:44,814 --> 01:30:46,441
- [ Piwonski Replies]
- Nothing.
988
01:30:46,524 --> 01:30:49,403
Exactly where did the camp begin?
989
01:30:52,489 --> 01:30:54,617
JAN PIWONSKI
990
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:57,874
I'll show you exactly.
991
01:31:17,305 --> 01:31:18,727
Here,
992
01:31:25,146 --> 01:31:28,992
there was a fence that ran
to those trees you see there.
993
01:31:29,067 --> 01:31:30,410
[ Lanzmann ]
Oui.
994
01:31:36,241 --> 01:31:39,495
And another fence
that ran to those trees over there.
995
01:31:40,412 --> 01:31:44,918
So I'm standing
inside the camp perimeter, right?
996
01:31:48,753 --> 01:31:49,845
[ Interpreter
That's right.
997
01:31:49,921 --> 01:31:53,676
Where I am now
is 50 feet from the station,
998
01:31:53,758 --> 01:31:55,510
and I'm already outside the camp.
999
01:31:55,593 --> 01:32:00,190
- [ Interpreter
- [ Piwonski] Yes. Yes.
1000
01:32:00,265 --> 01:32:01,437
Yes.
1001
01:32:04,894 --> 01:32:07,943
So this is the Polish part,
and over there was death.
1002
01:32:08,023 --> 01:32:11,152
[ Interpreter
1003
01:32:11,234 --> 01:32:12,235
Yes.
1004
01:32:14,362 --> 01:32:22,964
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1005
01:32:23,038 --> 01:32:27,214
On German orders,
Polish railmen split up the trains.
1006
01:32:27,292 --> 01:32:34,847
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1007
01:32:34,924 --> 01:32:36,892
So the locomotive took 20 cars
1008
01:32:36,968 --> 01:32:39,562
and headed toward Chelm.
1009
01:32:39,637 --> 01:32:42,766
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1010
01:32:42,849 --> 01:32:44,567
When it reached a switch...
1011
01:32:44,642 --> 01:32:47,145
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1012
01:32:47,228 --> 01:32:53,702
it pushed the cars into the camp
on the other track we can see.
1013
01:32:54,527 --> 01:32:55,779
The ramp began there.
1014
01:32:55,862 --> 01:32:59,241
So here we're outside the camp,
1015
01:32:59,324 --> 01:33:03,750
and back here we enter it.
1016
01:33:03,828 --> 01:33:08,504
Unlike Treblinka,
the station here is part of the camp.
1017
01:33:09,375 --> 01:33:11,628
- [Speaking Polish]
- Thank you. Thank you.
1018
01:33:11,711 --> 01:33:13,179
Thank you?
1019
01:33:13,963 --> 01:33:18,469
And at this point,
we are inside the camp.
1020
01:33:18,551 --> 01:33:21,270
[ Piwonski Speaking Polish]
1021
01:33:21,346 --> 01:33:24,190
[ Interpreter
This track was inside the camp.
1022
01:33:25,016 --> 01:33:28,862
And it's exactly as it was? Hmm?
1023
01:33:32,398 --> 01:33:34,196
Yes, the same track.
1024
01:33:34,651 --> 01:33:36,870
It hasn't changed since then.
1025
01:33:36,945 --> 01:33:41,041
Where we are now
is what was called the ramp, right?
1026
01:33:49,833 --> 01:33:54,634
Yes, those to be exterminated
were unloaded here.
1027
01:33:54,712 --> 01:33:56,180
So where we're standing
1028
01:33:56,256 --> 01:34:01,137
is where 250,000 Jews
were unloaded before being gassed.
1029
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:06,641
Yes.
1030
01:34:12,230 --> 01:34:16,906
[ Lanzmann ] Did foreign Jews
arrive here in passenger cars, too?
1031
01:34:17,318 --> 01:34:23,826
[ Interpreter
1032
01:34:24,784 --> 01:34:27,879
- [ Piwonski Replies ]
- Not always.
1033
01:34:27,954 --> 01:34:32,334
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1034
01:34:32,417 --> 01:34:34,419
Often the richest Jews...
1035
01:34:34,502 --> 01:34:36,004
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1036
01:34:36,087 --> 01:34:37,885
from Belgium, Holland, France...
1037
01:34:37,964 --> 01:34:39,966
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1038
01:34:40,049 --> 01:34:41,596
arrived in passenger cars...
1039
01:34:41,676 --> 01:34:45,351
- [ Piwonski Continues ]
- sometimes even in 1st class.
1040
01:34:45,597 --> 01:34:49,318
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1041
01:34:49,392 --> 01:34:52,441
They were usually better treated
by the guards.
1042
01:34:53,229 --> 01:34:57,951
[ Piwonski Continues ]
1043
01:35:14,834 --> 01:35:18,338
Especially the convoys
of Western European Jews
1044
01:35:18,421 --> 01:35:20,970
waiting their turn here,
1045
01:35:23,801 --> 01:35:28,022
Polish railmen saw the women
putting on make-up, combing their hair,
1046
01:35:28,097 --> 01:35:31,397
wholly unaware
of what awaited them minutes later.
1047
01:35:31,476 --> 01:35:32,398
Oui.
1048
01:35:32,477 --> 01:35:34,320
They dolled up.
1049
01:35:45,323 --> 01:35:47,667
And the Poles
couldn't tell them anything:
1050
01:35:47,742 --> 01:35:53,044
The guards forbad contact
with the future victims.
1051
01:36:00,964 --> 01:36:03,513
[ Lanzmann ]
I suppose there were fine days like today.
1052
01:36:04,759 --> 01:36:07,763
[ Interpreter
1053
01:36:07,845 --> 01:36:11,099
[ Piwonski Replies ]
1054
01:36:11,182 --> 01:36:13,856
Unfortunately, some were even finer.
1055
01:36:21,025 --> 01:36:24,029
RUDOLF VRBA - NEW YORK, USA,
survivor of Auschwitz
1056
01:36:24,696 --> 01:36:26,698
[ Vrba, In English]
There was a place called the ramp,
1057
01:36:26,781 --> 01:36:30,831
where the trains with the Jews
were coming in, in Auschwitz.
1058
01:36:32,537 --> 01:36:34,881
They were coming in day or night,
1059
01:36:35,123 --> 01:36:38,798
and sometimes one per day,
and sometimes five per day,
1060
01:36:39,377 --> 01:36:41,846
from all sorts of places in the world.
1061
01:36:43,131 --> 01:36:46,761
I worked there from August 18, 1942
1062
01:36:46,843 --> 01:36:50,222
until June 7, 1943.
1063
01:36:52,682 --> 01:36:55,561
I saw those transports rolling
one after the other,
1064
01:36:55,643 --> 01:36:59,739
and I am sure that I have seen at least
two hundred of them, in this position.
1065
01:37:01,149 --> 01:37:04,699
I have seen it so many times
that it became a routine.
1066
01:37:07,196 --> 01:37:10,166
Constantly, people from the heart
of Europe were disappearing,
1067
01:37:10,241 --> 01:37:12,585
and they were arriving to the same place
1068
01:37:12,660 --> 01:37:16,415
with the same ignorance of the fate
of the previous transports.
1069
01:37:17,415 --> 01:37:20,134
And that people in this mass...
1070
01:37:20,209 --> 01:37:23,759
And I knew, of course, that within
a couple of hours after they arrived there,
1071
01:37:23,838 --> 01:37:27,433
90% of them will be gassed,
or something like that. I knew that.
1072
01:37:27,633 --> 01:37:31,683
And somehow, in my thinking,
it... I could...
1073
01:37:31,763 --> 01:37:36,234
It was difficult for me to comprehend
that people can disappear in this way,
1074
01:37:36,893 --> 01:37:38,361
and nothing is going to happen,
1075
01:37:38,436 --> 01:37:41,064
and then there comes the next transport,
1076
01:37:41,147 --> 01:37:44,993
and they don't know anything about
what happened to the previous transport,
1077
01:37:45,068 --> 01:37:48,914
and this is going on
for months and months, on and on.
1078
01:37:50,948 --> 01:37:54,043
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
1079
01:37:55,453 --> 01:37:57,455
So what happened was the following:
1080
01:37:57,955 --> 01:38:02,131
Say, a transpon of Jews
was announced to come at 2:00.
1081
01:38:02,668 --> 01:38:06,013
So when the transport arrived
to close stations from Auschwitz,
1082
01:38:06,422 --> 01:38:09,141
the announcement came to the SS.
1083
01:38:09,967 --> 01:38:12,516
Now, one SS man came and woke us up.
1084
01:38:12,595 --> 01:38:16,441
We had to get up
and, uh, move to the ramp.
1085
01:38:16,516 --> 01:38:19,486
We immediately got an escort in the night,
1086
01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:21,654
and we were escorted to the ramp.
1087
01:38:21,729 --> 01:38:24,152
Say, we were about 200 men.
1088
01:38:25,066 --> 01:38:27,444
And lights went on.
1089
01:38:29,404 --> 01:38:31,122
There was a ramp.
1090
01:38:31,197 --> 01:38:33,871
Around the ramp were lights,
1091
01:38:34,117 --> 01:38:38,418
and under those lights
were the cordon of the SS.
1092
01:38:38,704 --> 01:38:42,880
There was one e very 10 yards,
with a gun in the hand.
1093
01:38:44,168 --> 01:38:47,263
So, we were in the middle,
the prisoners,
1094
01:38:47,797 --> 01:38:49,470
and we were waiting,
1095
01:38:49,549 --> 01:38:52,553
waiting for the train,
waiting for the next order.
1096
01:38:54,095 --> 01:38:57,269
Now, when all this was done,
everybody was there,
1097
01:38:57,807 --> 01:38:59,935
the transport was rolled in.
1098
01:39:01,185 --> 01:39:03,904
This means in a very slow fashion.
1099
01:39:04,522 --> 01:39:07,571
The locomotive,
which was always at the front,
1100
01:39:08,109 --> 01:39:10,032
was coming to the ramp,
1101
01:39:10,111 --> 01:39:12,455
and that was the end of the railway line.
1102
01:39:12,530 --> 01:39:16,455
That was the end of the line
for everybody who was on the train.
1103
01:39:21,205 --> 01:39:23,583
And, now, the train stopped,
1104
01:39:23,875 --> 01:39:25,252
and
1105
01:39:25,835 --> 01:39:28,884
the gangster elite marched on the ramp.
1106
01:39:29,964 --> 01:39:33,184
And in front of every second
or every third wagon,
1107
01:39:33,259 --> 01:39:35,478
and sometimes in front of every wagon,
1108
01:39:35,845 --> 01:39:38,268
one of those UnterscharfiJhrers
1109
01:39:41,100 --> 01:39:43,102
was standing with a key
1110
01:39:43,561 --> 01:39:45,814
and opened the locks,
1111
01:39:45,897 --> 01:39:49,276
because the wagons were locked.
1112
01:39:51,194 --> 01:39:54,448
Now, inside,
there were people, of course,
1113
01:39:54,530 --> 01:39:56,908
and you could see the people
looking through the windows,
1114
01:39:56,991 --> 01:39:58,493
because they didn't know what's happening.
1115
01:39:58,576 --> 01:40:00,169
They had many stops on their journey.
1116
01:40:00,244 --> 01:40:04,215
Some of them were 10 days on the journey.
Some were two days on the journey.
1117
01:40:05,416 --> 01:40:08,010
And they didn't know
what this particular stop means.
1118
01:40:08,085 --> 01:40:10,133
Now, the door was opened.
1119
01:40:11,005 --> 01:40:14,009
And the first order they were given was,
1120
01:40:14,091 --> 01:40:17,595
“AIIe heraus!”
“Everybody out!”
1121
01:40:18,763 --> 01:40:20,390
In order to make it quite clear,
1122
01:40:20,473 --> 01:40:24,569
they usually started with those walking sticks
1123
01:40:24,644 --> 01:40:28,023
to hit the first, the second,
the third, who were...
1124
01:40:28,105 --> 01:40:30,107
They were... They were...
1125
01:40:30,191 --> 01:40:32,114
They were like sardines in those cars.
1126
01:40:35,029 --> 01:40:38,408
If they expected on that day
four, five, six transports,
1127
01:40:38,491 --> 01:40:42,962
the pressure of getting out
from the wagons was high.
1128
01:40:50,002 --> 01:40:54,052
Then the y used sticks, clubs, cursing,
e! cetera, e2' cetera.
1129
01:40:57,176 --> 01:41:01,056
But, sometimes, the SS, if it was good weather,
they used to deal with it differently.
1130
01:41:01,138 --> 01:41:05,359
I mean, I was not surprised
if they were in a different mood and...
1131
01:41:05,601 --> 01:41:08,480
and, uh, exhibited a lot of humor,
1132
01:41:08,563 --> 01:41:10,486
like saying, “Good morning, Madam,”
1133
01:41:10,565 --> 01:41:12,818
and, “Will you please walk out?”
1134
01:41:12,900 --> 01:41:15,699
- [ Lanzmann, In English] It happened?
- Oh, yes! Oh, yes.
1135
01:41:15,987 --> 01:41:18,615
And, “How nice that you arrived.
1136
01:41:18,698 --> 01:41:20,996
We are so sorry that it wasn't too convenient,
1137
01:41:21,075 --> 01:41:23,749
but now things will become different.”
1138
01:41:27,707 --> 01:41:30,586
[ Bomba ]
When we came into Treblinka,
1139
01:41:30,668 --> 01:41:33,046
we didn't know who the people were.
1140
01:41:33,504 --> 01:41:37,054
Some of them, they had armbands,
some of them red.
1141
01:41:37,133 --> 01:41:40,854
Some of them, they had blue,
Jewish kommando.
1142
01:41:42,263 --> 01:41:44,937
Falling out from the train
1143
01:41:45,474 --> 01:41:48,023
and pushing out each other
1144
01:41:48,352 --> 01:41:51,401
and, over there, losing each other,
1145
01:41:51,480 --> 01:41:55,201
and the... and the...
and the crying and the hollering.
1146
01:41:55,526 --> 01:41:58,200
And, coming out,
1147
01:41:59,864 --> 01:42:03,710
we started on one way
to the right, one to the left,
1148
01:42:03,784 --> 01:42:06,708
the women to the left
and the men on the right.
1149
01:42:07,997 --> 01:42:09,749
And...
1150
01:42:10,708 --> 01:42:14,633
we had no time to even look at each other,
1151
01:42:15,212 --> 01:42:18,807
because they start hitting over the head
1152
01:42:19,383 --> 01:42:21,806
with all kinds of things.
1153
01:42:23,262 --> 01:42:24,684
And...
1154
01:42:26,223 --> 01:42:28,271
it is very, very...
1155
01:42:28,351 --> 01:42:30,228
Painful, it was.
1156
01:42:32,396 --> 01:42:36,026
You didn't know what had happened.
1157
01:42:36,108 --> 01:42:38,657
You had no time to think.
1158
01:42:38,736 --> 01:42:41,580
All you heard is crying.
1159
01:42:42,031 --> 01:42:46,753
And all you heard, all the time,
was the hollering of the people.
1160
01:42:47,745 --> 01:42:49,964
[ In German]
And suddenly it started:
1161
01:42:50,039 --> 01:42:52,588
the yelling and screaming.
1162
01:42:52,833 --> 01:42:54,801
“All out, everybody out!”
1163
01:42:55,252 --> 01:42:59,382
All those shouts,
the uproar, the tumult!
1164
01:42:59,924 --> 01:43:02,222
“Out! Get out!
1165
01:43:04,929 --> 01:43:07,148
Leave the baggage!”
1166
01:43:07,682 --> 01:43:11,437
We got out, stepping on each other.
1167
01:43:16,190 --> 01:43:22,118
We saw men wearing blue armbands.
1168
01:43:22,196 --> 01:43:26,827
Some carried whips.
1169
01:43:28,994 --> 01:43:31,713
We saw some SS men.
1170
01:43:31,789 --> 01:43:34,918
Green uniforms,
1171
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:40,097
black uniforms...
1172
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:44,802
We were a mass,
1173
01:43:47,054 --> 01:43:50,558
and the mass swept us along.
1174
01:43:50,641 --> 01:43:52,439
It was irresistible.
1175
01:43:52,518 --> 01:43:55,863
It had to move to another place.
1176
01:44:08,159 --> 01:44:10,662
I saw the others undressing.
1177
01:44:12,163 --> 01:44:16,714
And I heard, “Get undressed!
You're to be disinfected!”
1178
01:44:19,253 --> 01:44:22,848
As I waited, already naked,
1179
01:44:22,923 --> 01:44:29,898
I noticed the SS men
separating out' some people.
1180
01:44:29,972 --> 01:44:32,316
These were told to get dressed.
1181
01:44:34,226 --> 01:44:40,324
A passing SS man
suddenly stopped in front of me,
1182
01:44:41,692 --> 01:44:45,287
looked me over, and said,
1183
01:44:45,362 --> 01:44:50,118
“Yes, you too, quick,
join the others, get dressed.
1184
01:44:50,367 --> 01:44:54,964
You're going to work here,
and if you're good,
1185
01:44:55,039 --> 01:44:57,838
you can be a kapo... a squad leader.”
1186
01:45:03,380 --> 01:45:08,557
[ Bomba ]
At my transport, I was waiting, already naked.
1187
01:45:10,346 --> 01:45:14,726
A man came over and asked,
“You, you, you, step out.”
1188
01:45:14,809 --> 01:45:17,062
We stepped out,
1189
01:45:17,144 --> 01:45:20,944
and they took us a little bit on the side.
1190
01:45:23,067 --> 01:45:26,287
Some of the people from the transport,
1191
01:45:26,570 --> 01:45:28,823
they had an idea what is going on,
1192
01:45:28,906 --> 01:45:33,912
and they know already
that they will not stay alive.
1193
01:45:34,912 --> 01:45:38,416
Pushing the people, they didn't want to go,
1194
01:45:38,499 --> 01:45:41,298
or they knew already where they go,
1195
01:45:41,377 --> 01:45:45,473
to that big door.
1196
01:45:47,758 --> 01:45:51,012
The hollering and the crying
and the shouting
1197
01:45:51,095 --> 01:45:53,769
what was going over there on,
1198
01:45:55,182 --> 01:45:57,605
it was impossible.
1199
01:45:58,269 --> 01:46:03,947
The cries and the hollers
was in your ears and in your mind
1200
01:46:04,024 --> 01:46:06,197
for days and days,
1201
01:46:06,652 --> 01:46:08,825
and, at night, the same thing.
1202
01:46:08,904 --> 01:46:13,410
From that hollering, you could not
even sleep a couple night of that.
1203
01:46:16,287 --> 01:46:20,167
All of a sudden,
at one time, everything stopped,
1204
01:46:20,249 --> 01:46:23,173
like by a command.
1205
01:46:35,890 --> 01:46:38,268
It was all quiet,
1206
01:46:38,559 --> 01:46:42,109
the place where the people went in.
1207
01:46:42,980 --> 01:46:45,824
Just like on a command.
1208
01:46:46,775 --> 01:46:48,777
Like everything was dead.
1209
01:47:00,414 --> 01:47:06,797
Then, they told us
to make clean the whole place.
1210
01:47:06,879 --> 01:47:11,555
It was about 2,000 people
1211
01:47:11,634 --> 01:47:14,558
which they undressed on the outside.
1212
01:47:16,013 --> 01:47:20,519
To take the whole thing away
and to clear up the place,
1213
01:47:20,893 --> 01:47:25,069
and that has to be done in minutes.
1214
01:47:27,483 --> 01:47:31,204
Some of the Germans,
some of the other people that were there,
1215
01:47:31,278 --> 01:47:33,451
the Ukrainians or the other ones,
1216
01:47:33,530 --> 01:47:39,958
they start shouting and hitting us
that we should do it faster,
1217
01:47:40,037 --> 01:47:46,090
to carry the bundles on our backs
faster to the main place,
1218
01:47:47,086 --> 01:47:53,594
where it was big places of clothes,
1219
01:47:53,676 --> 01:47:56,850
of shoes, of other things.
1220
01:47:57,471 --> 01:48:00,224
In no time, this was clean,
1221
01:48:00,307 --> 01:48:02,355
just like it never happened,
1222
01:48:02,434 --> 01:48:05,654
that never was people on that place again.
1223
01:48:06,397 --> 01:48:11,198
There was no trace, not at all.
1224
01:48:11,986 --> 01:48:16,207
Like a magic thing, everything disappeared.
1225
01:48:17,950 --> 01:48:20,874
BIRKENAUI THE RAMP
1226
01:48:26,417 --> 01:48:27,919
[ Vrba ]
Whenever a new transport came,
1227
01:48:28,002 --> 01:48:32,303
the ramp was cleaned
absolutely to zero point.
1228
01:48:35,884 --> 01:48:40,264
No trace from the previous transport
was allowed to remain.
1229
01:48:41,598 --> 01:48:43,646
Not one trace.
1230
01:48:54,486 --> 01:48:58,457
[ Glazar, In German]
We were taken to the barracks.
1231
01:48:59,867 --> 01:49:03,371
The whole place stank.
1232
01:49:05,622 --> 01:49:09,297
Piled about five feet high
1233
01:49:09,668 --> 01:49:14,640
in a jumbled mass,
1234
01:49:14,715 --> 01:49:19,642
were all the things people
could conceivably have brought.
1235
01:49:21,055 --> 01:49:24,650
Clothes, suitcases,
1236
01:49:24,725 --> 01:49:29,902
everything stacked in a solid mass.
1237
01:49:30,981 --> 01:49:34,906
On top of it,
jumping around like demons,
1238
01:49:34,985 --> 01:49:40,617
people were making bundles
1239
01:49:41,033 --> 01:49:44,333
and carrying them outside.
1240
01:49:45,245 --> 01:49:49,421
I was turned over to one of these men.
1241
01:49:49,500 --> 01:49:54,222
His armband said, “Squad Leader.”
1242
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:56,473
He shouted,
1243
01:49:56,548 --> 01:50:02,646
and I understood that I was also
to pick up clothing, bundle it,
1244
01:50:04,306 --> 01:50:09,984
and take it somewhere.
1245
01:50:12,397 --> 01:50:15,947
As I worked, I asked him,
1246
01:50:16,026 --> 01:50:20,623
"What is going on?
The undressed ones... Where are they?”
1247
01:50:21,698 --> 01:50:26,750
And he replied, “Dead! AH dead!”
1248
01:50:29,123 --> 01:50:33,754
But it still hadn't sunk in,
I didn't believe it.
1249
01:50:34,419 --> 01:50:36,262
He'd used the Yiddish word.
1250
01:50:36,338 --> 01:50:41,970
It was the first time
I'd heard Yiddish spoken.
1251
01:50:44,721 --> 01:50:48,976
He didn't say it very loud,
1252
01:50:50,060 --> 01:50:54,941
and I saw he had tears in his eyes.
1253
01:50:55,983 --> 01:50:59,829
Suddenly he started shouting
1254
01:50:59,903 --> 01:51:01,905
and raised his whip.
1255
01:51:02,156 --> 01:51:07,208
Out of the corner of my eyes,
I saw an SS man coming.
1256
01:51:07,286 --> 01:51:11,416
And I understood
that I was to ask no more questions,
1257
01:51:11,665 --> 01:51:18,014
but just to rush outside
with the package.
1258
01:51:22,009 --> 01:51:25,604
[ Bomba ]
At that time, we start working
1259
01:51:25,679 --> 01:51:29,559
in that place which they call Treblinka.
1260
01:51:31,435 --> 01:51:34,405
And still, I couldn't believe
what had happened
1261
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:38,359
over there on the other side of the gate,
1262
01:51:39,026 --> 01:51:42,576
where the people went in, disappeared,
1263
01:51:42,654 --> 01:51:45,282
or everything got quiet.
1264
01:51:48,702 --> 01:51:50,875
But in a minute, we find out,
1265
01:51:50,954 --> 01:51:54,834
when we start to ask the people
which they worked before us
1266
01:51:54,917 --> 01:51:56,715
what had happened with them.
1267
01:51:56,793 --> 01:52:00,297
They said, “What do you mean, what happened?
Don't you know that?
1268
01:52:01,131 --> 01:52:04,101
They're all gassed. They're all killed.”
1269
01:52:04,843 --> 01:52:09,349
It was impossible to say something
1270
01:52:09,890 --> 01:52:12,393
because we were just like stones.
1271
01:52:12,476 --> 01:52:15,320
We couldn't mention
what had happened to the wife,
1272
01:52:15,395 --> 01:52:16,897
what had happened to the kid.
1273
01:52:16,980 --> 01:52:19,074
“What do you mean, wife?
What do you mean, kid?
1274
01:52:19,149 --> 01:52:21,368
Nobody is anymore alive!”
1275
01:52:21,443 --> 01:52:23,912
“What do you mean, they're not alive?
How could they...
1276
01:52:23,987 --> 01:52:28,618
How could they kill, how could
they gas so many people at once?”
1277
01:52:28,700 --> 01:52:32,000
But they had their way how to do it.
1278
01:52:41,213 --> 01:52:45,844
[ Glazar] All I could think of
then was my friend Care! Unger.
1279
01:52:47,552 --> 01:52:51,182
He'd been at the rear of the train,
1280
01:52:51,265 --> 01:52:56,066
in a section that had been uncoupled
and left outside.
1281
01:52:57,854 --> 01:53:02,781
I needed someone.
Near me. With me.
1282
01:53:06,238 --> 01:53:10,288
Then I saw him.
He was in the 2nd group.
1283
01:53:10,367 --> 01:53:13,041
He'd been spared too.
1284
01:53:15,747 --> 01:53:21,004
On the way, somehow,
he had learned, he already knew.
1285
01:53:21,086 --> 01:53:23,714
He looked at me,
1286
01:53:25,132 --> 01:53:31,014
all he said was,
“Richard, my father, mother, brother...”
1287
01:53:32,973 --> 01:53:36,193
He had learned on the way there.
1288
01:53:38,895 --> 01:53:42,650
[ Lanzmann, In German]
Your meeting with Carel:
1289
01:53:42,733 --> 01:53:46,408
how long after your arrival
did it happen?
1290
01:53:47,946 --> 01:53:54,670
It was... around 20 minutes
after we reached Treblinka.
1291
01:54:01,710 --> 01:54:04,839
Then I left the barracks
1292
01:54:04,921 --> 01:54:09,848
and had my first look at the vast space
1293
01:54:10,594 --> 01:54:17,773
that I soon learned
was called “the sorting place.”
1294
01:54:18,935 --> 01:54:24,283
It was buried under mountains
of objects of all kinds.
1295
01:54:25,025 --> 01:54:29,656
Mountains of shoes,
of clothes, 30 feet high.
1296
01:54:32,449 --> 01:54:36,420
I though! about' it and said to Carrel,
1297
01:54:36,495 --> 01:54:39,715
“I! is" a hurricane, a raging sea.
1298
01:54:39,790 --> 01:54:43,886
We're shipwrecked.
And we're still alive.
1299
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:46,429
We must do nothing
1300
01:54:46,505 --> 01:54:49,725
but watch for every new wave,
1301
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:52,895
float on it,
1302
01:54:52,969 --> 01:54:58,897
get ready for the next wave,
1303
01:54:58,975 --> 01:55:01,069
and ride the wave at all costs.
1304
01:55:01,144 --> 01:55:03,567
And nothing else.”
1305
01:55:06,525 --> 01:55:09,574
That's how the day went through,
1306
01:55:10,487 --> 01:55:12,660
without anything.
1307
01:55:12,739 --> 01:55:14,582
No drinking.
1308
01:55:14,658 --> 01:55:18,458
We were 24 hours without water,
without anything.
1309
01:55:18,537 --> 01:55:20,084
We couldn't drink.
1310
01:55:20,163 --> 01:55:23,588
We couldn't have anything
taken into our mouths,
1311
01:55:23,667 --> 01:55:26,090
because it was impossible.
1312
01:55:26,169 --> 01:55:28,888
Just the meaning that before...
1313
01:55:28,964 --> 01:55:31,012
a minute, an hour before,
1314
01:55:31,091 --> 01:55:33,059
you were part of a family,
1315
01:55:33,135 --> 01:55:36,264
you were part of a wife or a husband,
1316
01:55:36,346 --> 01:55:41,193
and now, all of a sudden,
everything is dead.
1317
01:55:42,477 --> 01:55:45,026
We went into a special barrack,
1318
01:55:45,856 --> 01:55:49,702
where I was sleeping
right next to the wall.
1319
01:55:50,861 --> 01:55:54,661
And over there, that night,
1320
01:55:54,739 --> 01:55:57,959
it was the most horrible night
for all the people,
1321
01:55:58,952 --> 01:56:01,455
because the memory of all those things,
1322
01:56:01,538 --> 01:56:04,462
what people went through with each other,
1323
01:56:04,541 --> 01:56:06,168
all the joys and the happiness,
1324
01:56:06,251 --> 01:56:09,755
and the births and the weddings
and other things,
1325
01:56:09,838 --> 01:56:12,307
and all of a sudden, in one second,
1326
01:56:12,382 --> 01:56:15,306
to cut that through without anything,
1327
01:56:15,385 --> 01:56:17,683
and without any guilt of the people,
1328
01:56:17,762 --> 01:56:19,810
because the people were not guilty at all.
1329
01:56:19,890 --> 01:56:23,895
The only guilt from them was
because they were Jewish people.
1330
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:30,110
Most of us, we were all up at night,
1331
01:56:30,358 --> 01:56:34,329
trying to talk to each other,
which was not allowed.
1332
01:56:34,404 --> 01:56:37,453
The commandant was sleeping
in the same barrack.
1333
01:56:37,741 --> 01:56:40,335
We were not allowed to talk to each other
1334
01:56:40,410 --> 01:56:46,088
or to express our view
or our minds to each other
1335
01:56:46,917 --> 01:56:51,172
until the morning, at 5:00,
1336
01:56:52,255 --> 01:56:56,761
we start going out from the barracks.
1337
01:56:58,428 --> 01:57:00,101
In the morning,
1338
01:57:01,139 --> 01:57:05,986
when they had an Appell
to go out from the barracks,
1339
01:57:06,061 --> 01:57:07,859
from our group,
1340
01:57:07,938 --> 01:57:12,865
I would say at least
four or five were dead.
1341
01:57:13,693 --> 01:57:17,038
I don't know how
the thing happened that, what?
1342
01:57:17,113 --> 01:57:23,997
They must have with them
some kind of Zyanka/I or some kind of poison
1343
01:57:24,079 --> 01:57:26,047
in which they poisoned themselves.
1344
01:57:26,122 --> 01:57:28,250
Some of them there,
1345
01:57:28,333 --> 01:57:31,462
I would say at least of them
were me/ne friends...
1346
01:57:31,545 --> 01:57:33,843
two of my close friends.
1347
01:57:33,922 --> 01:57:35,970
They didn't say anything.
1348
01:57:36,049 --> 01:57:39,269
We didn't even know
that they have with them poison.
1349
01:57:44,224 --> 01:57:47,273
[ Glazar, In German]
Greenery, sand everywhere else.
1350
01:57:47,644 --> 01:57:50,773
At night, we were put into barracks.
1351
01:57:50,855 --> 01:57:52,823
It just had a sand floor.
1352
01:57:52,899 --> 01:57:55,368
Nothing else.
1353
01:57:55,819 --> 01:58:01,246
Each of us simply dropped
where he stood.
1354
01:58:01,992 --> 01:58:08,170
Half asleep,
I heard some men hang themselves.
1355
01:58:08,373 --> 01:58:12,594
We didn't react then.
It was almost normal.
1356
01:58:14,170 --> 01:58:16,264
Just as it was normal
1357
01:58:16,339 --> 01:58:23,894
that for everyone behind whom
the gate of Treblinka closed,
1358
01:58:24,347 --> 01:58:28,193
there was death, had to be death,
1359
01:58:28,435 --> 01:58:35,239
for no one was supposed
to be left to bear witness.
1360
01:58:37,027 --> 01:58:41,157
I already knew that,
1361
01:58:41,239 --> 01:58:46,791
three hours after arriving at Treblinka.
1362
01:58:49,539 --> 01:58:51,382
♪♪ [ Schlager ]
1363
01:59:01,092 --> 01:59:04,767
♪♪ [ Man Singing In German:
“Mandolinen um MitternachF]
1364
01:59:33,750 --> 01:59:37,880
♪♪ [ Continues ]
1365
02:00:23,007 --> 02:00:25,101
♪♪ [ Continues ]
1366
02:00:43,695 --> 02:00:45,493
♪♪ [ Fades ]
1367
02:00:47,657 --> 02:00:49,659
BERLIN
1368
02:00:50,827 --> 02:00:53,706
[ Woman, In English]
This is no longer home, you see?
1369
02:00:54,956 --> 02:00:58,085
And, uh, especially, it's no longer home
1370
02:00:58,168 --> 02:01:02,674
when they start telling me that
they didn't know, they didn't know.
1371
02:01:02,756 --> 02:01:04,508
They say they didn't see.
1372
02:01:04,591 --> 02:01:06,764
“Yes, there were Jews living in our house.
1373
02:01:06,843 --> 02:01:08,686
One day, they were no longer there.
1374
02:01:08,762 --> 02:01:11,185
We didn't know what happened.”
1375
02:01:12,182 --> 02:01:13,980
They couldn't help seeing it.
1376
02:01:14,058 --> 02:01:16,277
It was not a matter of one action.
1377
02:01:16,352 --> 02:01:20,949
These were actions that were
taking place over almost two years.
1378
02:01:21,566 --> 02:01:25,787
There was always... Every fortnight
people were torn out of the houses.
1379
02:01:25,862 --> 02:01:28,911
How could they escape it?
How could they not see it?
1380
02:01:31,534 --> 02:01:35,084
I remember that day on which
they made Berlin JudenreKn.
1381
02:01:35,497 --> 02:01:39,343
The people hastened in the streets.
They... They didn't want to be in the street.
1382
02:01:39,417 --> 02:01:42,637
You could see the streets
were absolutely empty.
1383
02:01:43,755 --> 02:01:45,257
They didn't want to look, you know?
1384
02:01:45,340 --> 02:01:47,763
They thought of hastening to buy
what they had to buy.
1385
02:01:47,842 --> 02:01:51,312
It was Saturday, and they had to buy
something for the Sunday, you see?
1386
02:01:51,387 --> 02:01:55,893
So they went shopping
and hastened back into their houses.
1387
02:02:02,690 --> 02:02:04,988
And I remember this day very vividly,
1388
02:02:05,068 --> 02:02:12,702
because we saw police cars, uh,
rushing through the streets of Berlin,
1389
02:02:12,784 --> 02:02:15,583
taking people out of the houses.
1390
02:02:16,079 --> 02:02:19,083
They had herded together
from factories, from the houses,
1391
02:02:19,165 --> 02:02:21,338
wherever they could find the Jews,
1392
02:02:21,668 --> 02:02:25,969
and had put them into something
that was called Klu.
1393
02:02:26,381 --> 02:02:31,763
KIu was a dance, um, restaurant,
a very big one.
1394
02:02:32,220 --> 02:02:36,691
From there, they were deported
in various transports.
1395
02:02:38,101 --> 02:02:43,107
They were going off not far from here,
on one of the tracks of the Bahnhof Grunewald.
1396
02:02:46,359 --> 02:02:49,989
And this was a day when I felt so...
1397
02:02:50,071 --> 02:02:52,494
suddenly so utterly alone,
1398
02:02:52,574 --> 02:02:56,454
so utterly left alone,
1399
02:03:00,081 --> 02:03:04,336
because now I knew we would be
one of the very few people left.
1400
02:03:04,419 --> 02:03:08,094
I didn't know how many more
would be underground.
1401
02:03:17,891 --> 02:03:22,738
And this was a day when I felt very guilty
that I didn't go myself,
1402
02:03:22,812 --> 02:03:29,320
that I tried to escape a fate
that the others could not escape.
1403
02:03:30,904 --> 02:03:37,002
There was no more warmth around,
no more soul akin to us, you understand?
1404
02:03:37,076 --> 02:03:38,578
And we talked about this.
1405
02:03:38,661 --> 02:03:42,040
“What happened to Elsa,
and what happened to Hans?”
1406
02:03:42,123 --> 02:03:45,502
“Where is he, and where is she?
Do you know this?”
1407
02:03:45,585 --> 02:03:47,804
“My God, what happened to the child?”
1408
02:03:47,879 --> 02:03:51,759
You know, these... these were
our talks on that horrible day.
1409
02:03:51,841 --> 02:03:54,685
And this feeling of being terribly alone
1410
02:03:54,761 --> 02:03:58,732
and terribly guilty that we did not go...
- [ Lanzmann ] Guilty?
1411
02:03:58,806 --> 02:04:00,604
That we did not go with them.
1412
02:04:02,310 --> 02:04:05,439
[ Man Shouting In German]
1413
02:04:15,990 --> 02:04:18,539
Why did we try? Why? Why?
1414
02:04:18,618 --> 02:04:20,541
What made us do this,
1415
02:04:20,620 --> 02:04:25,626
to escape a fate that was really our destiny
or the destiny of our people?
1416
02:04:26,542 --> 02:04:29,887
INGE DEUTSCHKRON
Born in Berlin
1417
02:04:30,171 --> 02:04:33,721
Lived there through the war
1418
02:04:34,092 --> 02:04:38,188
(In hiding beginning in February 1943)
1419
02:04:38,471 --> 02:04:42,396
Now lives in Israel
1420
02:05:15,216 --> 02:05:18,846
FRANZ SUCHOMEL:
SS UnterscharfiJhrer
1421
02:05:21,055 --> 02:05:24,901
- [ Lanzmann, In German ] Are you ready?
- [ Suchomel, In German] Yes.
1422
02:05:24,976 --> 02:05:27,274
- Then we can...
- We can begin.
1423
02:05:27,353 --> 02:05:29,321
[ Lanzmann Repeats Phrase ]
1424
02:05:31,315 --> 02:05:35,536
[ Lanzmann ]
How's your heart? Is everything in order?
1425
02:05:36,738 --> 02:05:39,662
[ Suchomel] Oh, my heart...
For the moment, ifs all right.
1426
02:05:39,741 --> 02:05:43,371
If I have any pain, I'll tell you.
1427
02:05:43,453 --> 02:05:45,046
We'll have to break off.
1428
02:05:45,121 --> 02:05:46,794
[ Lanzmann ]
Of course.
1429
02:05:48,833 --> 02:05:51,302
But your health, in general, is...
1430
02:05:51,377 --> 02:05:55,473
- [ Suchome/ j The weather tode y suits me fine.
- J a.
1431
02:05:55,548 --> 02:05:59,928
The barometric pressure is high:
That's good for me.
1432
02:06:00,011 --> 02:06:04,391
[ Lanzmann ]
You look to be in good shape, anyway.
1433
02:06:05,266 --> 02:06:10,397
Let's begin with Treblinka.
- Certainly.
1434
02:06:10,480 --> 02:06:12,482
[ Lanzmann ]
I think that's best.
1435
02:06:12,857 --> 02:06:17,909
If you could give us
1436
02:06:18,488 --> 02:06:22,459
a description of Treblinka.
1437
02:06:23,159 --> 02:06:26,584
How did it look when you arrived?
1438
02:06:26,662 --> 02:06:31,759
- I believe you got there in August?
- Mme August.
1439
02:06:31,834 --> 02:06:35,555
- Was it August 20 or 24?
- [ Suchome! Replies ]
1440
02:06:35,797 --> 02:06:38,801
- The 18th?
- I don't know exactly.
1441
02:06:38,883 --> 02:06:42,262
Around August 20.
1442
02:06:42,345 --> 02:06:43,392
[ I anzmann j
J a .
1443
02:06:43,471 --> 02:06:47,442
I arrived there with seven other men.
1444
02:06:48,059 --> 02:06:50,983
- From Berlin?
- From Berlin.
1445
02:06:51,062 --> 02:06:52,780
From Lublin?
1446
02:06:53,564 --> 02:06:57,614
From Berlin to Warsaw,
from Warsaw to Lublin,
1447
02:06:57,693 --> 02:07:03,075
from Lublin back to Warsaw
and from Warsaw to Treblinka.
1448
02:07:03,366 --> 02:07:07,712
What was Treblinka like then?
1449
02:07:08,371 --> 02:07:13,298
Treblinka then was operating
at full capacity.
1450
02:07:13,876 --> 02:07:16,550
- Full capacity?
- Full capacity!
1451
02:07:18,214 --> 02:07:20,558
Trains arrived...
1452
02:07:21,843 --> 02:07:25,973
The Warsaw ghetto
was being emptied then.
1453
02:07:26,055 --> 02:07:27,432
Ja.
1454
02:07:28,057 --> 02:07:34,656
Three trains arrived in two days...
1455
02:07:34,730 --> 02:07:36,073
Ja.
1456
02:07:36,149 --> 02:07:43,283
each with three, four,
five thousand people aboard,
1457
02:07:44,240 --> 02:07:46,743
all from Warsaw.
1458
02:07:47,410 --> 02:07:52,587
But at the same time,
other trains came in
1459
02:07:53,457 --> 02:07:58,258
from Kielce and other places.
- Kielce?
1460
02:07:59,255 --> 02:08:02,475
So three trains arrived,
1461
02:08:03,426 --> 02:08:09,559
and since the offensive
against Stalingrad was in fear,
1462
02:08:09,765 --> 02:08:14,646
the trainloads of Jews
were left on a station siding.
1463
02:08:15,605 --> 02:08:20,782
What's more, the cars were French...
1464
02:08:20,860 --> 02:08:21,656
Ja.
1465
02:08:21,736 --> 02:08:23,830
made of steel.
1466
02:08:24,071 --> 02:08:30,295
So that while 5,000 Jews
arrived in Treblinka,
1467
02:08:30,912 --> 02:08:33,665
3,000 were dead.
1468
02:08:34,332 --> 02:08:36,505
- In the...
- In the cars.
1469
02:08:36,584 --> 02:08:39,133
They had slashed their wrists,
1470
02:08:41,005 --> 02:08:44,509
or just died.
1471
02:08:46,510 --> 02:08:50,890
The ones we unloaded
were half-dead
1472
02:08:50,973 --> 02:08:55,900
and half-mad.
1473
02:08:58,189 --> 02:09:03,867
In the other trains from Kielce
1474
02:09:04,153 --> 02:09:06,656
and elsewhere,
1475
02:09:07,365 --> 02:09:10,164
at least half were dead.
1476
02:09:11,118 --> 02:09:15,248
We stacked them here, here,
1477
02:09:17,291 --> 02:09:19,385
here and here.
1478
02:09:19,961 --> 02:09:22,840
Thousands of people
1479
02:09:23,839 --> 02:09:27,059
piled one on top of another.
1480
02:09:27,927 --> 02:09:29,099
Ja.
1481
02:09:29,178 --> 02:09:31,522
On the ramp?
- On the ramp.
1482
02:09:32,181 --> 02:09:35,355
Stacked like wood.
1483
02:09:35,726 --> 02:09:36,978
In addition,
1484
02:09:37,061 --> 02:09:42,784
other Jews, still alive,
waited there for two days:
1485
02:09:42,858 --> 02:09:47,238
The small gas chambers
could no longer handle the number.
1486
02:09:47,321 --> 02:09:54,250
They functioned
day and night in that period.
1487
02:09:54,328 --> 02:09:58,879
Can you please describe, very precisely,
1488
02:09:59,250 --> 02:10:03,346
your first impression of Treblinka?
1489
02:10:03,421 --> 02:10:07,301
Very precisely. it's very important.
1490
02:10:07,383 --> 02:10:11,889
My first impression of Treblinka,
1491
02:10:12,513 --> 02:10:18,566
and that of some of the other men,
was catastrophic.
1492
02:10:19,437 --> 02:10:22,407
For we had not been told
1493
02:10:23,232 --> 02:10:28,409
how and what...
that people were being killed there.
1494
02:10:28,779 --> 02:10:30,326
They hadn't told us.
1495
02:10:30,406 --> 02:10:32,534
- You didn't know?
- No!
1496
02:10:33,159 --> 02:10:35,833
Incredible!
1497
02:10:36,078 --> 02:10:39,924
But true. I didn't want to go.
1498
02:10:39,999 --> 02:10:40,716
Ja.
1499
02:10:40,791 --> 02:10:43,510
- That was proved at my trial.
- Ja.
1500
02:10:43,586 --> 02:10:45,884
I was told,
1501
02:10:45,963 --> 02:10:47,886
“Mr. Suchomel,
1502
02:10:48,549 --> 02:10:52,679
there are big workshops there
for tailors and shoemakers,
1503
02:10:52,928 --> 02:10:55,397
and you'll be guarding them.”
1504
02:10:55,473 --> 02:10:57,066
- Ja.
- Nothing more.
1505
02:10:57,141 --> 02:11:00,941
But you knew it was a camp?
1506
02:11:01,020 --> 02:11:03,489
Yes. We were told,
1507
02:11:03,773 --> 02:11:10,031
“The Fuhrer ordered a resettlement program.”
- Ja.
1508
02:11:10,112 --> 02:11:13,707
- “It's an order from the Fuhrer.”
- Jaja.
1509
02:11:13,991 --> 02:11:15,789
- Understand?
- Resettlement program...
1510
02:11:15,868 --> 02:11:19,213
- [ Repeats Phrase]
- Ja.
1511
02:11:20,081 --> 02:11:22,755
No one ever spoke of killing.
1512
02:11:23,084 --> 02:11:25,883
[ Lanzmann ]
I understand.
1513
02:11:25,961 --> 02:11:30,216
Mr. Suchomel, we're not discussing you,
1514
02:11:30,299 --> 02:11:32,267
only Treblinka.
1515
02:11:32,343 --> 02:11:35,768
You are a very important eyewitness,
1516
02:11:35,846 --> 02:11:40,693
and you can explain what Treblinka was.
1517
02:11:40,768 --> 02:11:42,896
[ Suchomel]
But don't use my name.
1518
02:11:42,978 --> 02:11:46,858
No, I promise.
1519
02:11:46,941 --> 02:11:48,943
[ Suchomel]
Und Dortmund...
1520
02:11:49,026 --> 02:11:52,075
[ Lanzmann ]
All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.
1521
02:11:52,154 --> 02:11:55,658
[ Suchomel]
So Sta-die, the sarge,
1522
02:11:56,158 --> 02:11:59,628
showed us the camp
1523
02:12:01,288 --> 02:12:04,918
from end to end.
1524
02:12:07,169 --> 02:12:10,969
Just as we went by,
1525
02:12:11,048 --> 02:12:16,726
they were opening the gas chamber doors,
1526
02:12:16,804 --> 02:12:21,401
and people fell out like potatoes.
1527
02:12:24,687 --> 02:12:29,693
Naturally, that horrified
and appalled us.
1528
02:12:30,192 --> 02:12:34,823
We went back and sat down
on our suitcases
1529
02:12:34,905 --> 02:12:38,375
and cried like old women.
1530
02:12:42,872 --> 02:12:47,548
Each day, 100 Jews were chosen
1531
02:12:48,169 --> 02:12:52,219
to drag the corpses to the mass graves.
1532
02:12:53,549 --> 02:13:01,434
In the evening, the Ukrainians drove
those Jews into the gas chambers
1533
02:13:01,682 --> 02:13:03,309
or shot them.
1534
02:13:03,392 --> 02:13:05,144
Every day!
1535
02:13:07,563 --> 02:13:10,783
It was in the hottest days of August.
1536
02:13:14,236 --> 02:13:19,083
The ground undulated like waves
1537
02:13:19,283 --> 02:13:21,035
because of the gas.
1538
02:13:21,118 --> 02:13:22,335
From the bodies?
1539
02:13:22,411 --> 02:13:23,708
: 3%:
1540
02:13:23,787 --> 02:13:28,509
Bear in mind, the graves
were maybe 18, 20 feet deep...
1541
02:13:28,584 --> 02:13:29,255
Ja.
1542
02:13:29,335 --> 02:13:33,761
all crammed with bodies!
1543
02:13:34,548 --> 02:13:38,974
A thin layer of sand
and the heat. You see?
1544
02:13:39,220 --> 02:13:41,518
It was hell up there.
1545
02:13:41,597 --> 02:13:42,940
You saw that?
1546
02:13:43,015 --> 02:13:46,895
Yes, just once, the first day.
1547
02:13:46,977 --> 02:13:49,947
We puked and wept.
1548
02:13:50,022 --> 02:13:52,696
- You wept?
- We wept too, yes.
1549
02:13:52,775 --> 02:13:54,277
[ Lanzmann ]
Ja.
1550
02:13:56,946 --> 02:13:59,870
- The smell was infernal.
- [ Repeats Phrase]
1551
02:13:59,949 --> 02:14:04,204
Yes, because gas
was constantly escaping.
1552
02:14:04,286 --> 02:14:08,962
It stank horribly, for miles around.
1553
02:14:09,041 --> 02:14:11,260
- Miles?
- Miles!
1554
02:14:11,335 --> 02:14:14,214
- You could smell it all around...
- [ Repeats Phrase]
1555
02:14:14,296 --> 02:14:16,344
Not just in the camp?
1556
02:14:16,423 --> 02:14:20,599
Everywhere. It depended on the wind.
1557
02:14:20,678 --> 02:14:23,648
The stink was carried on the wind.
1558
02:14:24,640 --> 02:14:26,563
Understand?
1559
02:14:34,650 --> 02:14:38,905
[ Suchomel]
More people kept coming, always more,
1560
02:14:38,988 --> 02:14:42,834
whom we hadn't the facilities to kill.
1561
02:14:48,706 --> 02:14:54,054
Those gents were in a rush
to clean out the Warsaw ghetto.
1562
02:14:57,381 --> 02:15:01,386
The gas chambers
couldn't handle the load.
1563
02:15:01,468 --> 02:15:04,017
The small gas chambers.
1564
02:15:20,696 --> 02:15:24,291
The Jews had to wait their turn
1565
02:15:24,366 --> 02:15:28,872
for a day, 2 days, 3 days.
1566
02:15:35,169 --> 02:15:37,547
They foresaw what was coming.
1567
02:15:38,672 --> 02:15:41,221
They foresaw it.
1568
02:15:42,551 --> 02:15:47,899
They may not have been certain,
but many knew.
1569
02:15:52,728 --> 02:15:57,325
There were Jewish women
1570
02:15:57,858 --> 02:16:01,658
who slashed
their daughters' wrists at night,
1571
02:16:01,904 --> 02:16:05,249
then cut their own.
1572
02:16:06,033 --> 02:16:08,752
Others poisoned themselves.
1573
02:16:10,037 --> 02:16:15,589
They heard the engine
feeding the gas chamber.
1574
02:16:18,712 --> 02:16:23,309
A tank engine was used
in that gas chamber.
1575
02:16:25,094 --> 02:16:30,646
At Treblinka, the only gas used
was engine exhaust.
1576
02:16:31,100 --> 02:16:33,523
Zyklon gas, that was Auschwitz.
1577
02:16:40,275 --> 02:16:44,121
Because of the delay,
1578
02:16:44,863 --> 02:16:49,664
Eberl, the camp commandant,
1579
02:16:50,619 --> 02:16:54,965
phoned Lublin and said,
1580
02:16:55,708 --> 02:16:59,884
“We can? go on this way.
I can? do it any longer.
1581
02:16:59,962 --> 02:17:04,183
We have to break off.”
1582
02:17:04,258 --> 02:17:07,979
Overnight, Wirth arrived.
1583
02:17:09,096 --> 02:17:12,851
He inspected everything and then left.
1584
02:17:12,933 --> 02:17:17,063
He returned with people from Belzec,
1585
02:17:17,146 --> 02:17:19,490
experts.
1586
02:17:20,649 --> 02:17:25,280
Widh arranged to suspend the trains.
1587
02:17:27,823 --> 02:17:33,296
The corpses lying there
were cleared away.
1588
02:17:34,329 --> 02:17:38,960
That was the period
of the old gas chambers.
1589
02:17:39,501 --> 02:17:44,598
Because there were so many dead
1590
02:17:44,673 --> 02:17:47,426
that couldn't be gotten rid of,
1591
02:17:48,010 --> 02:17:52,265
for days and days,
1592
02:17:53,599 --> 02:17:58,696
the bodies piled up
around the gas chambers.
1593
02:17:59,980 --> 02:18:04,360
Under this pile of bodies
was a cesspool:
1594
02:18:05,110 --> 02:18:09,707
3 inches deep, full of blood, worms...
1595
02:18:11,325 --> 02:18:13,544
and shit.
1596
02:18:14,495 --> 02:18:15,667
Ja.
1597
02:18:15,746 --> 02:18:18,090
- Where?
- In front of the gas chamber.
1598
02:18:18,165 --> 02:18:20,588
- Ja.
- Nicht wahr?
1599
02:18:21,502 --> 02:18:24,301
No one wanted to clean it out.
1600
02:18:24,379 --> 02:18:28,429
The Jews preferred to be shot
1601
02:18:29,551 --> 02:18:32,395
rather than work there.
1602
02:18:33,055 --> 02:18:35,558
- Preferred to be shot?
- [ Repeats Phrase]
1603
02:18:38,393 --> 02:18:44,321
It was awful. Burying
their own people, seeing it all...
1604
02:18:44,399 --> 02:18:48,700
The dead flesh came off in their hands.
1605
02:18:48,904 --> 02:18:49,780
Ja.
1606
02:18:49,863 --> 02:18:52,958
So Wirlh went there himself
1607
02:18:53,992 --> 02:18:56,541
with a few Germans
1608
02:18:57,746 --> 02:19:01,751
and had long belts rigged up
1609
02:19:02,209 --> 02:19:06,806
that were wrapped
around the dead torsos to pull them...
1610
02:19:06,880 --> 02:19:09,349
- Who did that?
- SS men.
1611
02:19:09,424 --> 02:19:11,518
- Wirth?
- SS men and Jews.
1612
02:19:11,593 --> 02:19:14,096
- SS men and Jews!
- [ Repeats Phrase]
1613
02:19:14,179 --> 02:19:18,104
- Jews too?
- Jews too!
1614
02:19:19,059 --> 02:19:23,314
What did the Germans do?
1615
02:19:23,397 --> 02:19:26,867
They forced the Jews to...
1616
02:19:26,942 --> 02:19:29,195
They beat them?
1617
02:19:29,278 --> 02:19:34,705
Or they themselves helped
with the cleanup.
1618
02:19:34,783 --> 02:19:37,627
Which Germans did that?
1619
02:19:39,121 --> 02:19:45,299
Some of our guards
who were assigned up there.
1620
02:19:47,963 --> 02:19:49,510
The Germans themselves?
1621
02:19:49,590 --> 02:19:52,685
They had to.
1622
02:19:53,135 --> 02:19:54,603
They were in command!
1623
02:19:54,678 --> 02:20:00,151
They were in command,
but they were also commanded.
1624
02:20:00,225 --> 02:20:03,650
[ Lanzmann ]
I think the Jews did it.
1625
02:20:04,897 --> 02:20:10,825
In that case,
the Germans had to lend a hand.
1626
02:20:12,654 --> 02:20:16,704
THE BLACK EXECUTION WALL
IN THE COURTYARD OF BLOCK ll
1627
02:20:18,827 --> 02:20:22,957
AT AUSCHWITZ I,
THE ORIGINAL CAMP
1628
02:20:25,751 --> 02:20:29,756
[ Lanzmann, In German]
Filip, on that Sunday in May 1942,
1629
02:20:29,838 --> 02:20:36,471
when you first entered
the Auschwitz crematorium,
1630
02:20:36,553 --> 02:20:38,351
how old were you?
1631
02:20:39,431 --> 02:20:41,229
[ Man, In German]
Twenty.
1632
02:20:48,690 --> 02:20:51,694
It was a Sunday in May.
1633
02:20:59,368 --> 02:21:04,750
We were locked
in an underground cell in Block 11.
1634
02:21:06,291 --> 02:21:09,044
We were held in secret.
1635
02:21:13,340 --> 02:21:17,061
Then some SS men appeared
1636
02:21:18,887 --> 02:21:23,734
and marched us
along a street in the camp.
1637
02:21:33,986 --> 02:21:38,082
We went through a gate,
1638
02:21:44,538 --> 02:21:47,291
and around 300 feet away,
1639
02:21:48,250 --> 02:21:50,753
300 feet from the gate,
1640
02:21:51,336 --> 02:21:54,761
I suddenly saw a building.
1641
02:21:55,090 --> 02:22:00,813
It had a flat roof, and a smokestack.
1642
02:22:09,688 --> 02:22:12,783
I saw a door in the rear.
1643
02:22:16,611 --> 02:22:22,289
I thought they were taking us
to be shot.
1644
02:22:24,578 --> 02:22:27,707
FILIP MULLER - CZECH JEW
1645
02:22:27,789 --> 02:22:32,670
Survivor of the 5 liquidations
of the Auschwitz “special detail”
1646
02:22:35,589 --> 02:22:39,469
Suddenly, before a door
1647
02:22:40,635 --> 02:22:46,313
under a lamp
in the middle of this building,
1648
02:22:46,391 --> 02:22:51,522
a young SS man told us,
1649
02:22:51,605 --> 02:22:54,734
“Inside, filthy swine!”
1650
02:22:54,816 --> 02:22:58,491
We entered a corridor.
1651
02:22:59,780 --> 02:23:02,659
They drove us along it.
1652
02:23:14,336 --> 02:23:20,343
Right away, the stench,
the smoke choked me.
1653
02:23:29,976 --> 02:23:32,695
They kept on chasing us,
1654
02:23:33,980 --> 02:23:38,360
and then I made out the shapes
1655
02:23:39,361 --> 02:23:42,865
of the first two ovens.
1656
02:23:47,994 --> 02:23:52,591
Between the ovens,
some Jewish prisoners were working.
1657
02:23:58,338 --> 02:24:03,435
We were in the crematorium's
incineration chamber
1658
02:24:03,885 --> 02:24:06,729
in Camp I at Auschwitz.
1659
02:24:13,228 --> 02:24:14,730
From there,
1660
02:24:15,230 --> 02:24:21,328
they herded us to another big room,
1661
02:24:25,574 --> 02:24:30,876
and told us to undress the corpses.
1662
02:24:33,582 --> 02:24:36,051
I looked around me.
1663
02:24:39,171 --> 02:24:42,766
There were hundreds of bodies,
1664
02:24:44,176 --> 02:24:46,554
all dressed.
1665
02:24:48,221 --> 02:24:50,974
Piled with the corpses
1666
02:24:52,267 --> 02:24:55,316
were suitcases, bundles
1667
02:24:56,021 --> 02:24:58,115
and, scattered everywhere,
1668
02:24:58,690 --> 02:25:02,820
strange, bluish-purple crystals.
1669
02:25:02,903 --> 02:25:06,157
I couldn't understand any of it.
1670
02:25:13,455 --> 02:25:19,383
It was like a blow to the head...
as if you'd been stunned.
1671
02:25:19,628 --> 02:25:22,882
I didn't even know where I was.
1672
02:25:22,964 --> 02:25:25,638
Above all, I couldn't understand
1673
02:25:25,717 --> 02:25:29,972
how they managed
to kill so many people at once.
1674
02:25:32,724 --> 02:25:36,194
When we undressed some of them,
1675
02:25:36,269 --> 02:25:40,149
the order was given to feed the ovens.
1676
02:25:44,653 --> 02:25:49,329
Suddenly, an SS man
rushed up and told me,
1677
02:25:49,407 --> 02:25:52,786
“Get out of here! Go stir the bodies!”
1678
02:25:53,161 --> 02:25:55,163
What did he mean,
1679
02:25:55,247 --> 02:25:57,625
“Stir the bodies”?
1680
02:25:58,166 --> 02:26:02,763
I entered the cremation chamber.
1681
02:26:02,837 --> 02:26:07,468
There was a Jewish prisoner,
1682
02:26:07,550 --> 02:26:11,646
Fischel, who later became
a squad leader.
1683
02:26:12,138 --> 02:26:13,890
He looked at me,
1684
02:26:14,557 --> 02:26:21,065
and I watched him
poke the fire with a long rod.
1685
02:26:21,648 --> 02:26:25,403
He told me, “Do as I'm doing
1686
02:26:25,485 --> 02:26:28,659
or the SS will kill you.”
1687
02:26:29,281 --> 02:26:32,876
I picked up a poker
1688
02:26:32,951 --> 02:26:35,670
and did as he was doing.
1689
02:26:35,745 --> 02:26:38,089
[ Lanzmann ]
A poker?
1690
02:26:38,164 --> 02:26:40,132
A steel poker.
1691
02:26:41,209 --> 02:26:44,634
I obeyed Fischel's order.
1692
02:26:44,713 --> 02:26:49,765
At that point I was in shock
as if I'd been hypnotized,
1693
02:26:50,510 --> 02:26:56,313
ready to do
1694
02:26:56,391 --> 02:26:58,894
whatever I was told.
1695
02:26:58,977 --> 02:27:05,701
I was so mindless, so horrified
1696
02:27:05,775 --> 02:27:13,876
that I did everything Fischel told me.
1697
02:27:14,409 --> 02:27:17,413
So the ovens were fed,
1698
02:27:18,163 --> 02:27:21,963
but we were so inexperienced
1699
02:27:23,001 --> 02:27:31,477
that we left the fans on too long.
1700
02:27:31,718 --> 02:27:34,767
- The fans?
- Yes.
1701
02:27:34,846 --> 02:27:39,147
There were fans to make the fire hotter.
- Mm-hmm.
1702
02:27:39,601 --> 02:27:43,526
They worked too long...
1703
02:27:43,605 --> 02:27:48,907
The firebrick suddenly exploded,
1704
02:27:49,903 --> 02:27:55,125
blocking the pipes
1705
02:27:55,200 --> 02:27:58,625
linking the Auschwitz crematorium
1706
02:27:59,412 --> 02:28:02,712
with the smokestack.
1707
02:28:04,626 --> 02:28:08,847
Cremation was interrupted.
1708
02:28:09,464 --> 02:28:13,139
The ovens were out of action.
1709
02:28:15,720 --> 02:28:20,191
That evening, some trucks came,
1710
02:28:20,600 --> 02:28:22,898
and we had to load the rest,
1711
02:28:22,977 --> 02:28:26,072
some 300 bodies,
1712
02:28:26,147 --> 02:28:29,071
into the trucks.
1713
02:28:29,150 --> 02:28:34,156
Then we were taken...
1714
02:28:36,157 --> 02:28:39,252
I still don't know where...
1715
02:28:39,327 --> 02:28:44,299
but probably to a field at Birkenau.
1716
02:28:48,586 --> 02:28:55,014
We were ordered
to unload the bodies
1717
02:28:55,343 --> 02:29:01,726
and put them in a pit.
1718
02:29:02,308 --> 02:29:06,279
There was a ditch, an artificial pit.
1719
02:29:06,354 --> 02:29:09,904
Suddenly, water gushed up
from underground
1720
02:29:09,983 --> 02:29:13,203
and swept the bodies down.
1721
02:29:18,658 --> 02:29:23,585
When night came,
we had to stop that horrible work.
1722
02:29:24,539 --> 02:29:27,042
We were loaded into the trucks
1723
02:29:27,125 --> 02:29:31,551
and returned to Auschwitz.
1724
02:29:36,176 --> 02:29:37,849
The next day,
1725
02:29:38,136 --> 02:29:44,769
we were taken to the same place.
1726
02:29:52,567 --> 02:29:55,571
But the water had risen.
1727
02:29:57,238 --> 02:30:01,118
Some SS men came
with a fire truck
1728
02:30:01,201 --> 02:30:04,705
and pumped out the water.
1729
02:30:05,955 --> 02:30:10,005
We had to go down
into that muddy pit
1730
02:30:10,084 --> 02:30:13,805
to stack up the bodies.
1731
02:30:17,091 --> 02:30:18,843
But they were slimy.
1732
02:30:18,927 --> 02:30:23,353
For example, I grasped a woman,
1733
02:30:23,431 --> 02:30:25,775
but her hands...
1734
02:30:25,850 --> 02:30:28,194
Her hand was slippery, slimy.
1735
02:30:28,269 --> 02:30:30,863
I tried to pull her,
1736
02:30:30,939 --> 02:30:37,618
but I fell over backward,
into the water, the mud.
1737
02:30:39,197 --> 02:30:41,700
It was the same for all of us.
1738
02:30:41,783 --> 02:30:47,881
Up above, at the edge of the pit,
Aumeyer and Grabner yelled,
1739
02:30:47,956 --> 02:30:51,961
“Get cracking, you filth, you bastards!
1740
02:30:52,043 --> 02:30:56,719
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!”
1741
02:30:56,798 --> 02:30:59,972
These were the names they were calling us.
1742
02:31:00,301 --> 02:31:02,144
And in these...
1743
02:31:02,428 --> 02:31:05,147
[ Repeats Phrase]
1744
02:31:07,767 --> 02:31:10,361
How shall I say?
...circumstances,
1745
02:31:11,729 --> 02:31:16,656
2 of my “friends”
couldn't take any more.
1746
02:31:16,734 --> 02:31:19,487
One was a French student.
1747
02:31:19,988 --> 02:31:21,410
- Ja?
-Juden?
1748
02:31:21,489 --> 02:31:24,789
All Jews! They were exhausted.
1749
02:31:27,829 --> 02:31:33,836
They just lay there...
1750
02:31:34,669 --> 02:31:37,593
in the mud.
1751
02:31:37,839 --> 02:31:41,764
Aumeyer called one of his SS men.
1752
02:31:41,843 --> 02:31:45,689
“Go on, finish off those swine!”
1753
02:31:48,641 --> 02:31:53,192
They were exhausted.
And they were shot in the pit.
1754
02:31:59,152 --> 02:32:04,534
[ Lanzmann ]
There was no crematorium at Birkenau then?
1755
02:32:05,241 --> 02:32:09,712
[ MUIIer]
No, there weren't any there yet.
1756
02:32:11,372 --> 02:32:14,376
Birkenau still wasn't completely set up.
1757
02:32:14,876 --> 02:32:20,303
Only Camp BI, which was
the late women's camp, existed.
1758
02:32:26,679 --> 02:32:30,479
It wasn't until the spring of 1943
1759
02:32:30,558 --> 02:32:36,065
that skilled workmen
and unskilled laborers, all Jews,
1760
02:32:36,147 --> 02:32:38,741
must have gone to work here
1761
02:32:38,816 --> 02:32:42,036
and built the 4 crematorium.
1762
02:32:45,573 --> 02:32:48,793
Each crematorium had 15 ovens,
1763
02:32:49,911 --> 02:32:54,758
a big undressing room,
around 3,000 square feet,
1764
02:32:55,583 --> 02:32:57,836
and a big gas chamber
1765
02:32:57,919 --> 02:33:02,550
where up to 3,000 people at once
could be gassed.
1766
02:33:05,259 --> 02:33:06,727
TREBLINKA
1767
02:33:06,803 --> 02:33:12,105
[ Suchomel, In German] The new gas chambers
were built in September 1942.
1768
02:33:12,600 --> 02:33:14,944
[ Lanzmann, In German]
Who built them?
1769
02:33:15,436 --> 02:33:23,196
Hackenhold and Lambert supervised
the Jews who did the work,
1770
02:33:23,444 --> 02:33:25,993
the bricklaying, at least.
1771
02:33:27,448 --> 02:33:33,751
Ukrainian carpenters made the doors.
1772
02:33:35,581 --> 02:33:39,302
The gas chamber doors themselves
1773
02:33:39,377 --> 02:33:43,507
were armored bunker doors.
1774
02:33:43,589 --> 02:33:47,514
I think they were brought
from Bialystok,
1775
02:33:47,593 --> 02:33:50,187
from some Russian bunkers.