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1
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- PASOLINI NEXT TO US -
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00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:24,549
Yes, here is fine.
3
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,314
- Okay? - Okay.
This way we'll get a medium shot.
4
00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,519
People, please...
5
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,833
You can put it at 3 meters...
6
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,749
I think we can even offset
the close-up...
7
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,513
Now, shut the lights for a while,
otherwise everything will burn.
8
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:48,635
Ennio!
9
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,795
- Then, when the film is finished,
Stefano wanted to talk to him. - Okay.
10
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,473
Let's hope that tomorrow
he can do that. He's in hospital.
11
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,633
Make up your mind, because
these new ones have to get done,
12
00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,076
the ones that Bonacelli
and Curval do, we have to do them.
13
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,277
Third and fourth group.
You have the same list as me.
14
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,115
I mean, Bruno gouging out his eyes,
the scalping of Faridah,
15
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,032
the whipping of Antinisca.
16
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,953
Come on, attention!
Roll film!
17
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,029
No, it was good like that,
I could see him like that!
18
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,033
Stay there. Bend over and watch
what they're doing to him.
19
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,193
Okay, roll film. Action!
Scream, Tonino! Scream!
20
00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:55,038
You probably met the people
because you were there...
21
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,828
Before it was for "Sight and Sound".
22
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,714
They want it shortly
for the issue coming out.
23
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,871
- Have you heard
of "Sight and Sound"? - No.
24
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:08,718
It's an English movie magazine,
the most important in the world.
25
00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:13,959
And for "Mademoiselle",
I don't know if you've heard of it.
26
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,635
These are 3 very different audiences,
I don't know what language to use.
27
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:23,036
- I imagine you don't worry
about where they go. - No, no.
28
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,558
- Really? - An author, regardless
of his level of expression,
29
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,393
must know who his product
is intended for.
30
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:38,518
I can't produce boots
for a cripple.
31
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,711
- Understand? - Yes, but I think
that it's unimportant, because then
32
00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,919
I put the material already published
in "Bianco e Nero" together
33
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,516
and take some pieces
from this discussion.
34
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,878
I understand.
Then, you take care of it.
35
00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,431
- You are my interlocutor.
- Yes. - Fine.
36
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:02,709
What is this?
37
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:03,949
This is the microphone.
38
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,594
- How does it work?
- Connect it inside, no?
39
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,631
They are filming
what you are saying.
40
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,509
- Really? - Yes.
- No, I'm ashamed!
41
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,988
- You're ashamed?
- Ah, I'm ashamed!
42
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,952
I'm ashamed, I can't speak!
43
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:30,193
As you know, the film is taken from
De Sade's "The 120 Days of Sodom",
44
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,274
but it's set during
the Republic of Sal�,
45
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,950
in 1944-1945.
46
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:38,998
So, there's lots of sex,
47
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,599
but the sex in the film
is De Sade's typical sex,
48
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,151
which is characteristically
exclusively sadomasochist,
49
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,549
in all of the atrocity
of his details and his situations.
50
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,950
This sex interests me
the way it interested De Sade,
51
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,473
that is, for what it is,
52
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,794
but in my film, all of this sex
takes on a particular meaning:
53
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,349
It is a metaphor of what power
does to the human body,
54
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,593
its commercialisation,
its reduction to a thing,
55
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,628
which is typical of power,
of any power.
56
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,279
If in the place of the word "God",
in De Sade, I put the word "power",
57
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,190
the result is a strange
and extremely current ideology.
58
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,479
This currency marks a true change
59
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,835
with respect to the films
I have made up to now,
60
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,116
that is the "Trilogy of Life":
"The Decameron",
61
00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:38,919
"The Canterbury Tales"
and "The Arabian Nights".
62
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,668
It is pure Marxism,
Marx's "Manifest" says just this:
63
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,957
Power commercialises the body,
it transforms the body into goods.
64
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,274
When Marx speaks
of the man exploiting man,
65
00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,159
he is really talking about
a sadistic relationship.
66
00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,116
- SAL�, OR
THE 120 DAYS OF SODOM -
67
00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,628
That sadists have always been
powerful is a point of fact.
68
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,279
In fact, in De Sade, the 4 people
69
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,908
that perform the terrible acts
during the 120 days
70
00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,753
are a banker, a duke,
71
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,791
a bishop
and a president of the court
72
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,597
and they represent power,
73
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:26,998
the secular arm of power.
74
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,432
They are 4 Nazi-Fascists
of that period,
75
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,395
however, they are
particularly cultured,
76
00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,717
able to really read
Nietzsche or Baudelaire well
77
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,148
perhaps even Lautr�amont.
78
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,038
They are rather ambiguous characters.
79
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,953
And then, above all,
the film is devoid of psychology
80
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,634
and so it's devoid
of real personal information.
81
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,548
Another inspiring element
of the film
82
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,388
is the memory
of those days I lived,
83
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,472
the days of the Republic of Sal�.
84
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,996
- Were you there in those days?
- I wasn't in Sal�, but in Friuli.
85
00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,956
Friuli had become
a German region,
86
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,510
it had been bureaucratically
annexed to Germany.
87
00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:21,115
It was called the "Adriatic Coast".
88
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,948
There was a Gauleiter,
which was a sort of governor,
89
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,795
from September 8, 1943
until the end of the war.
90
00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:35,714
And so, I lived
frightening days in Friuli.
91
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,236
To begin with, there had been one
of the toughest partisan struggles
92
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,038
and my brother
died in that struggle.
93
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,118
Then, it was one of the cruellest
94
00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,033
because Friuli was completely
under German control
95
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,829
and there few Fascists were seen,
they were true assassins.
96
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,478
Among other things, Friuli was
continuously bombed by the Americans
97
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,592
because the Flying Fortresses
dropped bombs over Friuli
98
00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,079
on their way to Germany.
99
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,232
Roundups, deserted towns, bombings
100
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,198
almost futile, pure cruelty.
101
00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,238
- What city were you in? - I was
in Casarsa, my mother's hometown.
102
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:14,913
- Casarsa?
- Casarsa.
103
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,355
- Where you were born?
- No, I was born in Bologna.
104
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,796
It's my mother's hometown,
where I spent part of my childhood,
105
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,192
where I went every summer as a child.
In 1943 we were evacuated.
106
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,318
- Evacuated?
- That means "refugees".
107
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,595
- From Bologna?
- Yes.
108
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,753
- So, you didn't work there.
- No, I was still in school.
109
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:40,117
I wrote poems, which were
my first Friulano poems.
110
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,356
- What year were you born in?
- 1922.
111
00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,189
How can this film's message
be understood
112
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,550
by today's young people?
113
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,755
I don't think that the young
will understand it.
114
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,748
I have no illusions of being
understood by the young
115
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,435
because it's impossible to establish
a cultural relationship with them
116
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,390
because they live new values
which have nothing in common
117
00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,279
with the old values
that I refer to.
118
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,151
It's as if they have an agreement!
119
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,880
They talk, they laugh
and they behave the same way,
120
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,473
they use the same gestures,
121
00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:49,639
they love the same things,
drive the same motorcycles...
122
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,199
In short, I saw uniforms!
123
00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,670
When I was a boy,
I saw the Fascist youth movement,
124
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,673
but I have never seen people
conform like they do today,
125
00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,637
that is not in the name
of an organisation,
126
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,758
they are not called Boy Scouts,
Balilla or Fascist Youth,
127
00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,239
they may not have those names,
128
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,870
but it's a conformism
based on this informal
129
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,110
and self-creating youth movement.
130
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,669
It is all based on children,
on young people.
131
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,151
The horrible thing about journalism
and about the Italian culture
132
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,198
is that young people are free,
they are free of complexes,
133
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,555
they are uninhibited,
they live a happy life.
134
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,395
Imagine, the entire Italian bourgeoisie
is convinced of this.
135
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,712
And the entire left-wing, as well.
136
00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,952
They think that these young people
are finally the young people...
137
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:33,549
Do you follow me?
138
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,589
They don't understand, they don't see,
because they don't love them!
139
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,479
Those who don't love farmers
don't understand their tragedy.
140
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,518
Those who don't love the young
couldn't care less about them.
141
00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:46,069
They don't care about them
because they don't love them.
142
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:47,753
Not having loved yesterday's young
143
00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,990
they don't realise
today's young have changed.
144
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:51,832
They are always the same for them.
145
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,029
I, having loved them dearly,
have always followed them.
146
00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,668
So, now this is
a catastrophe for me!
147
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,598
It is all dedicated to love.
148
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,910
All of my books
and my narrative works
149
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:07,474
speak of the young.
150
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,078
I loved them and I depicted them.
151
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,353
Now I couldn't make a film about
these imbeciles that surround us.
152
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,719
Sometimes my eyes literally
well up with tears
153
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,269
when I see Ninetto's son,
who is a year old.
154
00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,555
Tears come to my eyes
in pity for his future.
155
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,351
Yes, because the fathers
of these, terrible young people,
156
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,516
the fathers of this new generation
of hateful, young people,
157
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:43,390
I speak of the masses but, poor
things, there are infinite exceptions.
158
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,629
In the big industrialised cities
159
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,868
the young generation
has become hateful, unbearable.
160
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,032
After all,
what have their fathers done,
161
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:56,557
those who are 40-50 years old?
162
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,875
What have they done to prevent these
children from becoming what they are?
163
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,233
The fathers who have children
from 15 to 20 years old
164
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,238
objectively, can no longer
teach them anything,
165
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,873
because they have not experienced
the life their children are living.
166
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,235
They have no right to say: "Look"
167
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,868
When they were young,
their problem was finding bread,
168
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,554
while their childrers problem
is finding a motorcycle.
169
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,154
So, they cannot tell them:
"When I was young... "
170
00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,231
No, for their type of life
was so different
171
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,233
that they have no right to teach
and so they stay quiet.
172
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,834
But which generation
created the conditions
173
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,275
so that their children
could live like they do?
174
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:43,793
It's always their fault!
175
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,669
So, poor fools, they are powerless
in relationships with their children
176
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,398
we can even understand them,
177
00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:52,518
but they are responsible
for this situation.
178
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,438
Today's ideal is consumerism,
179
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,912
there is an enormous group
extending from Milan to Bologna,
180
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,794
it includes Rome
and spreads to the south.
181
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,111
It is a homologating civilisation
that makes everything the same.
182
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,192
So it's clear that the barriers fall,
that small groups disband.
183
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,351
- Without ideology?
- What, it has no ideology?
184
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,671
With a consumer ideology, you don't...
Instead of having a flag,
185
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,876
the clothes they wear
are their flag.
186
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,228
Some of the means and some of the
external phenomena have changed,
187
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,394
but, in practice, it's
a depauperation of individuality
188
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,038
which is disguised
through its valorisation.
189
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,276
- CIRCLE OF MANIAS -
190
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,470
The film was offered
to Sergio Citti
191
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,390
and I had worked with him
on the screenplay.
192
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,314
My main contribution
to the screenplay
193
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,439
was to give it
a dantesque type structure
194
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,360
which De Sade probably
already had in mind.
195
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,750
I divided the screenplay into circles.
196
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,753
I gave the screenplay
a sort of verticality
197
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,595
and a dantesque type of order.
198
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,556
But while we were working
on the screenplay,
199
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,950
Sergio Citti
little by little, lost interest
200
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,634
because he had an idea
for another film,
201
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,995
instead, I fell in love with it
little by little.
202
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,391
And I definitely fell in love with it
when we got the brilliant idea
203
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,751
of transporting De Sade
into 1944 at Sal�.
204
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,636
During the so-called
"repressive" ages sex was a joy,
205
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,037
because
it was practiced in secret
206
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,112
and it made a mockery of all
of the obligations and duties
207
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,191
that the repressive power imposed.
208
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:12,036
Instead, in tolerant societies, as
the one we live in is declared to be,
209
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,158
sex produces neuroses
210
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,153
because the freedom granted
is false
211
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,949
and, above all, it is granted
from above and not won from below.
212
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,033
Therefore, the population
does not live sexual freedom,
213
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,510
instead they adapt to a freedom
which is granted to them.
214
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:31,713
And so, at a certain point,
215
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,270
one of the characters in the film
says exactly this:
216
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,796
"Repressive societies
repress everything,"
217
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,791
"therefore, men can do anything".
218
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,437
But I have added this concept
which for me is lapidary:
219
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,274
Permissive societies
permit a few things
220
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,749
and only those things can be done.
221
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:53,635
Hey!
222
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,279
That is terrible!
223
00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,311
In Italy, today,
some things are allowed.
224
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,710
Before, in reality,
nothing was granted.
225
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,348
The women were almost
like those in Arab countries.
226
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,829
Sex was hidden
and you couldn't talk about it,
227
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,549
and you couldn't even show
a partially nude breast in a magazine.
228
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,879
Now a few things are granted,
they allow photos of naked women,
229
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:17,673
but not of men.
230
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:25,677
#On the bridge of Perati,
black flag. #
231
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:35,389
#It is Julia's mourning
as she goes to war. #
232
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:43,629
#It is Julia's mourning
as she goes to war. #
233
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,434
#On the bridge of Perati,
black flag. #
234
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,633
#The best of the young
are buried. #
235
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:11,115
#The best of the young
are buried. #
236
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,630
Then, this great freedom
in heterosexual couples,
237
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,231
freedom, so to speak,
because it cannot be otherwise,
238
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,231
and then it is obligatory.
239
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,993
Since it is granted,
it has become obligatory,
240
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:51,634
since it is granted,
241
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,837
a young man cannot but take
advantage of this concession.
242
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,639
Therefore, he feels obliged
to always be part of a couple
243
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,439
and the couple has become
a nightmare, an obsession,
244
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:01,874
instead of a freedom.
245
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,949
Have you noticed
how fashionable couples are today?
246
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,554
But it is a completely false
and insincere couple,
247
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,233
frighteningly insincere.
248
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,995
See these kids, under the power
of who knows what romantic notion,
249
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,432
they walk hand-in-hand,
or arm-in-arm, a young man and a girl.
250
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,717
"What is this sudden romanticism?",
you may ask. Nothing.
251
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,350
It is simply the new couple
as revived by consumerism
252
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,751
because this consumerist couple
buys. - Exactly.
253
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,957
Hand in hand they go
to La Rinascente, to Upim...
254
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:25,275
Italians are neurotic.
255
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,113
At one time they were
very well-balanced, sexually,
256
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,599
in times of repression.
257
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,479
With the advent of tolerance
they've all become neurotic.
258
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,392
Besides the anarchy of power,
259
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,315
my film is about the possible
non-existence of history,
260
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,030
that is, it is in contrast
with history
261
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,156
as seen
by the Eurocentric culture,
262
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,790
that is middle-class rationalism
or empiricism on the one hand
263
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,757
and Marxism on the other.
264
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,279
Take France, for example,
265
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,319
in its relations with Algeria
and the Third World in general.
266
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,719
France, which has reached
maximum rationalism of the world.
267
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,716
For France, the word "freedom"
corresponds to "rationality".
268
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,794
Now France has reached
a sort of saturation
269
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,235
in terms of its own rationality.
270
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:27,277
And so, how does a nation like France
stand on this flood of irrationality
271
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,637
which arrives in the wake of
the Third World, a world of hunger?
272
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:33,917
There is a huge world,
the Third World...
273
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,356
The Third World populations precisely
because they've been repressed
274
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,557
and kept at the margins
of society and political life,
275
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,792
like all marginal areas
have preserved
276
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,791
an earlier sort of culture,
277
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,509
which, in some way,
was prehistoric in nature.
278
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,713
France sets itself
as the tamer of rationality
279
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,916
to the colonial populations.
280
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,036
In fact, it educates them very well.
281
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,913
France has taken nothing from them,
it has only given.
282
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,676
It gave them a model of education,
rationality, civilisation,
283
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,675
but did not know how to learn
anything from them
284
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,152
because this religious,
irrational, prehistoric type
285
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,074
that the Third World brings with it
cannot be rationalised.
286
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,077
Therefore, the French
must modify their reason
287
00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:27,669
if they want to understand,
if they don't want to remain behind.
288
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,950
Paris is a marvellous city
that I admire
289
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:32,588
because the matrix of my culture
is there.
290
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,071
You cannot but admire it,
291
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,838
but you feel that it is farther away,
more remote and archaic
292
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,279
than a little city
of any developing nation.
293
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,070
The modern world
will be a synthesis
294
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,073
between today's middle-class
western world
295
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,316
and the world
of the underdeveloped nations
296
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,277
that are meeting history now,
297
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,992
that is, western rationality
will be modified by the presence
298
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:18,109
of another type of world vision
that these peoples express.
299
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,355
Modernity consists
in this modification.
300
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,713
It is true that man is always the same,
but it is also true that he changes.
301
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,156
Now more than ever because at this
moment we are being threatened
302
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,470
by real anthropological mutation.
303
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,596
The true apocalypse
is that technology,
304
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,951
the era of applied science,
305
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,430
will transform man into something
different from what he was before.
306
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,115
Something has happened now that has
no equivalent in the history of man.
307
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,269
- CIRCLE OF SHIT -
308
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,672
And we are terrified by the idea
that our children and descendents
309
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,398
will no longer be like us.
310
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,356
It's a sort of end of the world.
311
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,270
Sadomasochism is
an eternal category of man:
312
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,393
It was there in De Sade's time,
it's here today, etc.
313
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,232
But this is not
what I care about.
314
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,713
I also care about this, but
the real sense of sex in my film
315
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,111
is a metaphor of the relation
between power with its subject.
316
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,669
Therefore, in reality,
it is true for all times.
317
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,394
The drive came from the fact
318
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,994
that I detest,
above all things, today's power.
319
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,720
Everyone hates
the power he is subject to.
320
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,512
Therefore, I hate the power of today,
of 1975, with particular vehemence.
321
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,673
It is a power that manipulates
the bodies in a horrible way,
322
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,068
it has nothing to envy
323
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,356
of Himmler's or Hitler's
manipulation.
324
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,354
It manipulates them, transforming
their conscience, in the worst way,
325
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,510
establishing new values
which are alienating and false.
326
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,274
The values of consumerism,
327
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,752
which accomplish
what Marx called genocide
328
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,918
of the living, real,
previous cultures.
329
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,474
For example, it has destroyed Rome.
The Romans no longer exist.
330
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,108
The young Roman no longer exists.
He is a cadaver.
331
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,317
A shadow of himself, which
continues to exist biologically
332
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,232
but which is in a state of limbo
333
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,870
suspended between the ancient values
of his popular, Roman culture
334
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,594
and the new lower middle-class,
consumerist values,
335
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,597
which have been imposed on him.
336
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:24,591
Then, this type of change
has spread the ideology
337
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,958
of consumeristic hedonism
amongst the Italians,
338
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:35,197
an ideology which is, perhaps
stupidly, secular and rational.
339
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:37,191
It is nearsighted, narrow.
340
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,149
This ideology affects all of
the Italians, intellectuals included.
341
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,108
Without wanting to, I also participate
in this ideology, in a certain sense
342
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,396
because I, too,
am happy to have a car
343
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,630
or to push a button
and turn on the heat.
344
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,076
I, too, in a certain sense,
tend towards superfluous goods.
345
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,636
Except that I save myself
from all this thanks to culture, etc.
346
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,796
In this, I am privileged.
347
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,078
However, the enormous mass
of the Italians
348
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,356
has fully fallen
into this mechanism.
349
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,238
Values have fallen and they
have been replaced by others.
350
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,713
Behaviour models have fallen
and were then replaced by others.
351
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,357
This replacement was not
the will of the people,
352
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,269
but it was imposed
by the consumerist power,
353
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,000
held by the large Italian
multi-national industry
354
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,357
and even by the national one
made up of pseudo industrialists,
355
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:36,152
that wanted the Italians to consume
a certain type of goods in a certain way.
356
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,389
And to consume them they had
to create another human model.
357
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,997
An old farmer,
traditionalist and religious,
358
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,958
did not consume junk food
359
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,157
advertised on television.
360
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,313
Instead, a way had to be found
so that he would consume it.
361
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,988
In reality, the producers force
the consumers to eat shit.
362
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,669
Knapp bouillon or...
363
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,958
They give adulterated,
bad things,
364
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,317
little robiola cheeses,
processed cheese for babies,
365
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,358
all horrible things
that are shit.
366
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,356
If I made a film on an industrialist
from Milan that produces cookies,
367
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,956
advertises them and makes
the consumers eat them,
368
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,749
the result would be a terrible film
on pollution, on adulteration,
369
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:39,438
on oil made
from the bones of carrion.
370
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,950
I could make a film like that,
but I can't!
371
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,676
How can I wait a year, first
thinking about it and then shoot it?
372
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,113
It would be more useful, in the direct,
practical sense of the word,
373
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,875
to show reality as it is.
But why bother?
374
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,678
It would be self-punishment.
375
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,595
Power remains exactly the same,
only its characteristics change,
376
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,514
the subject is no longer
parsimonious or religious,
377
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,360
he is a consumer and so
378
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,918
he is short-sighted,
irreligious, secular, etc.
379
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,194
The cultural characteristics change,
but the relationship is identical.
380
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,470
Therefore, it is a film
not only about power,
381
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,949
but about what I call
"the anarchy of power".
382
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,635
Nothing is more anarchic than power.
Power does what it wants
383
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,314
and what it wants
is totally arbitrary
384
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,990
or dictated
by its economic reasons
385
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,469
which escape common logic.
386
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,190
Both Christianity and Marxism have
always been imposed from above,
387
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,032
they have never come from below.
388
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,279
The principle of submission
389
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,479
might be a bit similar
to Marx's death instinct, no?
390
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,440
Co-existent with the aggressive
spirit of love.
391
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,431
In my opinion, it continued to exist
unchanged under Christianity,
392
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,433
because Christianity had quickly
become the State religion,
393
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,876
that is from the dominating class
and it was imposed,
394
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,793
therefore it did not change
these profound instincts.
395
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,956
Instead the only ideological system
which has truly involved
396
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,112
the dominated classes, as well,
is consumerism,
397
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,592
because it is the only one
that went all the way,
398
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,557
which gives
a certain aggressiveness
399
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,439
because this aggressiveness
is necessary to consumption.
400
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,672
If one is purely submissive,
401
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,237
he follows the pure instinct
of submission like an old farmer
402
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,789
who would lower
his head in resignation,
403
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,757
which is a sublime act,
like heroism.
404
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,595
Now this spirit of resignation,
of submission no longer exists;
405
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,228
how can a consumer be resigned
406
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,837
or accept a, so to speak,
archaic, backward and inferior state?
407
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,596
He must fight
to raise his social status.
408
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,875
"I lower my head in the name of God"
is already a great phrase.
409
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,428
While now, the consumer does
not even know he lowers his head,
410
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,272
to the contrary
he stupidly believes
411
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,159
he has not lowered it
and that he has won his rights.
412
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,839
To the contrary, he is always there
demanding his rights,
413
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,873
believing they say he's right,
instead he is a poor fool.
414
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,390
Power is always
a codifier and ritual.
415
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:33,237
Without wanting to, I found myself
representing in this film
416
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,595
both the proper middle-class life
417
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,070
with its parlours, its tea,
its double-breasted blazers,
418
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,870
and the Nazi ceremony,
419
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,755
in all of its macabre solemnity,
gloomy and wretched,
420
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,392
because power
is ritual and a codifier.
421
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,070
But that which ritualises,
which codifies
422
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,273
is always nothingness,
pure will, that is, its own anarchy.
423
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,719
- CIRCLE OF BLOOD -
424
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,151
Men were in need of a myth.
425
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,908
However,
in the average farming world
426
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,154
myths were always relived
through rituals.
427
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,712
The Mass was a ritual which,
for millenniums, crystallised
428
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,197
a religious creed.
429
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,110
All of the ancient religions
can be summarised in one model,
430
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,191
that of the eternal return:
431
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,438
Death and then
the resurrection.
432
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,310
Death and resurrection,
of nature, grass, harvests...
433
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,518
This eternal return no longer has
any sense for modern man.
434
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,590
The seasonal cycle
has been replaced
435
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,990
by infinite cycles
of production and consumption,
436
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,355
that of the bicycle,
the automobile, clothing...
437
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:07,953
They are many small cycles.
438
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,710
Produce and consume,
produce and consume
439
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,112
is an artificial cycle, rather
than natural, but still a cycle.
440
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,831
Today, rituals are of another type,
441
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,436
for example lining up
in front of a TV
442
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,034
or waiting in a queue of cars
on the week-end
443
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,592
or going on a picnic in a field.
444
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,557
Every power has its forms of ritual.
445
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,599
One of the features
of the disappearance of the myth
446
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,472
and the ancient, farmer ritual,
447
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,349
replaced by industrialisation,
is the disappearance of initiation.
448
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,999
For the Catholic religion, puberty
had Communion and Confirmation,
449
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,835
which now no longer have any weight,
they no longer have any meaning.
450
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,834
Now, there is no initiation because
a newborn is already a consumer.
451
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,075
There is no initiation
into the consumerist society.
452
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,272
The young people have
453
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,034
the same authority
as consumers as the elders do.
454
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,591
Man has always been a conformist.
455
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,354
His main characteristic
is that of conforming
456
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,195
to any type of power
or quality of life he finds at birth.
457
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,838
Perhaps, biologically,
man is narcissist, rebellious,
458
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,271
he loves his own identity, etc.,
459
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,916
but it's society that makes him
conformist and he's lowered his head
460
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,753
once and for all,
before the obligations of society.
461
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,510
I do not arouse pity
through the victims,
462
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,752
if not just barely,
with the utmost discretion.
463
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,760
The film would have been
horrible, unbearable.
464
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,596
If I had created likable victims
who cried and moved you,
465
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,752
you would have left
the movie theatre after 5 minutes.
466
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,239
And then, above all, I don't do it
because I don't believe in it.
467
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,237
There is someone who rebels,
but only just barely,
468
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,550
unconsciously
and he is just one.
469
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,675
It's the culmination of the film:
He dies clenching his fist.
470
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,838
But don't write this,
I want it to be a surprise.
471
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,310
I don't believe there will ever be
a society in which man is free.
472
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,314
So, it is futile to hope so.
473
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,797
But, we must never hope in anything.
Hope is a terrible thing,
474
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,509
invented by the parties
to keep their members happy.
475
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,358
I don't write like I used to,
476
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,395
which is the same as saying
that I no longer write.
477
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,632
At first, when I began
to make films,
478
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,396
I thought it was only the adoption
of a different technique,
479
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,514
I would almost say
of a different literary technique.
480
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,077
Then, instead,
I realised, bit by bit,
481
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,199
that it was the adoption
of a different language.
482
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,354
Therefore, I abandoned
the Italian language,
483
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,795
which I used to express myself
as a man of letters,
484
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,951
to adopt
cinematographic language.
485
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,349
I have said many times, in protest,
in total contestation,
486
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,512
that I would have liked
to renounce the Italian nationality.
487
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,752
In making films, in a sense
I've renounced the Italian language,
488
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,239
that is, my nationality.
489
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,671
But there's another truth, perhaps
more complicated and profound:
490
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:57,756
Language expresses reality
through a sign system.
491
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,518
Instead, the director
expresses reality through reality.
492
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,714
Maybe this is the reason why I like
cinema and I prefer it to literature,
493
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,917
because in expressing
reality as reality
494
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,878
I continuously work and live
at the level of reality.
495
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,997
A poet uses the word "flower",
but where does he take it from?
496
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,596
He takes it from the language of men
which we use in communicating.
497
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,079
Poetry means nothing to us.
498
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,948
We use the word "flower" because
we need it in our human relationships.
499
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,478
Instead, what other language
are images based on?
500
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,113
They are based on the images
of dreams and memories.
501
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,912
When we dream and reminisce,
we shoot short films in our heads.
502
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,391
Then, cinema has
its foundations, its roots
503
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,190
in a completely irrational,
irrationalist language:
504
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,716
Dreams, memory and reality
seen as hard fact.
505
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,911
Therefore, an image is infinitely
more dreamlike than a word.
506
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,630
In the end, when you see a film
it seems like a dream.
507
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:08,392
Beautiful, then! Beautiful!
508
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,872
Better, better like this!
509
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:16,309
Well?
510
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,519
Did you put it at 25 or not?
511
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,838
Now we need
to lower it a bit more.
512
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,192
- I have to lower it a bit?
- Yes, otherwise like this...
513
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,353
- Look, huh?
- Yes.
514
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:36,390
- Here... a bit too much.
- Too much?
515
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,397
- A little, just a little.
- Like this? - Yes, like this.
516
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,715
Action, roll. Come on, scream!
517
00:40:58,360 --> 00:40:59,349
Look!
518
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,911
Stop! But you kept your eyes closed
and you never looked into the camera.
519
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,992
If you close your eyes,
you don't look into the camera.
520
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:21,195
In general, my work is influenced
by the use of non professional actors
521
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,672
and of sets which are not
reconstructed in a theatre.
522
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,274
I use real sets:
523
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,797
When I shoot,
in reality I only gather material.
524
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,755
Then I go in any old place,
chosen by me, in nature,
525
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,070
and I gather material
according to the light,
526
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:46,071
according to what
I find there in that moment.
527
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,788
When you are in the middle
of a beautiful landscape
528
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,871
with some characters
that you like,
529
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,192
you are greedy, like a glutton in
the midst of all sorts of good food
530
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,750
you dive in like a beast eating
here and there. That's how I was.
531
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,637
I take a young man
who has never acted,
532
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,756
I put him in front of the camera
533
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,718
and I keep him there a long time,
gathering material.
534
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,072
This means that then I have
a long job of editing to do
535
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,956
to remove everything
that is futile
536
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,351
and grasp, instead, that moment
of truth that may have
537
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,198
flashed in his eyes,
in his smile while I was shooting.
538
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,995
Instead, in this film,
this is not the case
539
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,720
because it is not a film
of collected material
540
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,156
processed during editing.
It is already finished
541
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,232
and edited as I am shooting it.
542
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,070
So, I need more
professionalism from the actors.
543
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,035
In fact, there are
4-5 professional actors,
544
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:43,037
in the purest sense of the word,
545
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,477
but I also use the actors that
I have taken from the street and
546
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,950
who are acting for the first time
as if they were professional actors.
547
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,079
I demand a professional performance
won'thy of actors from them:
548
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,271
They must say the entire line,
549
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,398
with the right expression
from the beginning to the end, etc.
550
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,594
Scream!
551
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,868
Put your head down!
Remove the candle!
552
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,592
Renata! People!
553
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,679
When I say "action",
let Renata's head go
554
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,071
and her head must fall down
alone, in a faint.
555
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,675
Don't you push it down.
556
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,071
- Attention!
- Attention, roll film!
557
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:38,789
Action!
558
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,832
- Stop! - Bring them up, let's make
the bulletins. - Is this good?
559
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:05,632
Then he calmly puts the candle down,
there, and walks towards Franchino.
560
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,559
And you, Franchino, remember,
put up a good fight, huh?
561
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,109
- Ettore, let's do it again.
- Okay, another like that!
562
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,316
Ready! Go, roll film!
563
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,269
Action!
564
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:24,195
Stop!
565
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,397
Valletti, place the candle
with more calm.
566
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,155
It must seem like a ritual,
performed by a priest.
567
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,638
You did it a bit hurried.
568
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,913
Then, naturally, I leave a wide margin
for improvisation and freedom.
569
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,033
But here, it is all better
programmed than usual.
570
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,357
I want to edit it perfectly.
571
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,838
This film must almost
be a crystal at the end, formally.
572
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,355
It must not be confused, chaotic,
invented, disproportionate.
573
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,399
Everything must be very calculated,
much more accurate.
574
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:04,789
Everything: The movements,
the compositions, the stunts...
575
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,709
Once I didn't care much
about stunts, but in this film
576
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,190
when someone has to fall dead,
he has to repeat it a 1,000 times
577
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,954
until he really seems
like a dead body.
578
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,352
I always try to obtain
formal perfection,
579
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,520
which I use as a wrapping
580
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,956
for the terrible things
of De Sade and of Fascism.
581
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:29,712
Okay, stop. No!
A little more to my left. There!
582
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,470
A bit more, there! Huh?
583
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,114
Everyone come forward.
A little more. There!
584
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,200
The obsessive use of the shot
and the reverse shot,
585
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,920
of a close-up in contrast
with another close-up,
586
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,548
the absence
of over-the-shoulder shots,
587
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,236
the absence of characters
that exit and enter the shot,
588
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,240
above all the absence
of long shots
589
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,356
are typical features
of all of my films.
590
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,114
In this film,
all of that is brought
591
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:04,315
to the height of lucidity
and to their absolute state.
592
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:10,518
My almost obsessive habits
are taken to such a point
593
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,836
of obsession so that perhaps
the quality is changed.
594
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,231
If I believed that my cinema
were totally integrated
595
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,029
into a society that also wanted
the kind of films that I make,
596
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:28,952
maybe I wouldn't make them.
597
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,789
But I am convinced that there
is something that can't be integrated.
598
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,794
Middle-class society amalgamates,
assimilates and digests all.
599
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:42,114
But, in every work where individuality
and singularity stand out along with
600
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,909
originality and violence, there is
something that can't be integrated.
601
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:55,678
Who is this film for?
602
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,520
In general, for everyone,
for another me.
603
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,278
It is true that the masses
alienate and alter art when
604
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,194
the latter is commercialised and
proposed to them in a certain way,
605
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,911
but the masses
are still made up of individuals.
606
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,514
And so, in a theatre,
in a social ritual, let's say,
607
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,717
where my film is proposed
to the masses in this way, etc.,
608
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,440
in these theatres, in fact,
there are individuals.
609
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,558
The individual internalises
the world's problems.
610
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,075
Everything happens in the individual.
611
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,393
I attribute to the others,
even those most constrained,
612
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,553
most enslaved by social customs,
the chance, in any case,
613
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,354
to understand a work
in their way, at their level.
614
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,508
I have this faith in human freedom,
615
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,875
that I wouldn't know
how to rationalise.
616
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,838
But I realise that,
if things continue like this,
617
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,236
man will become mechanised,
so conformist,
618
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,755
so unpleasant and hateful
619
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,229
that this freedom
will be completely lost.
620
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,631
I would continue to make films anyway
even if I were the only free man
621
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,315
and if that freedom
were to die with my cinema.
622
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,278
Maybe I would continue to make
films because I need to do it,
623
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,796
I like doing it and I would do it.
I'd either kill myself or I do it.
624
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,916
In making a film, I express myself.
625
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:26,792
If then, my expression is alienated,
mechanised, so what!
626
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,077
In the meantime I have expressed
myself as freely as possible.
627
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,232
Isn't there a small bad-guy part for me?
I never get to play the villain, huh?
628
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,439
- Wait and see what you'll be doing in
the next scene - That's great! Thanks.
629
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,598
- Wait and see what you'll be doing.
You can't imagine. - Thank goodness!
630
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,389
What do you consider
the central point of your work,
631
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:52,159
I mean the core of your work that
guides you from one film to the next?
632
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,392
A message,
an obsession or an idea...
633
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,595
It is a formal idea
634
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,195
which is the same in every film,
of what I must do.
635
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:12,194
The formal model, the flash
that I have of what a film must be
636
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,677
it can't be said in words:
637
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,997
You either understand it,
or you don't, I can't explain it to you.
638
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,029
When I decide to make a film,
it is because I have a flash,
639
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:26,869
a formal idea for the film.
It is the synthesis of the film.
640
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,232
The idea for a film is never
the result of a series of thoughts.
641
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,079
If anything, there is a series
of thoughts interrupted,
642
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,118
by a flash,
as in the case of De Sade.
643
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,438
When you make a film,
like when you write a novel,
644
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,439
there are phases.
645
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,433
It is the story of things
as they become what they are
646
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,319
and the author, at the end,
has done something
647
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:52,675
that was only partly in his head.
648
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,473
The editing of the film
is a moment of great surprise
649
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:00,959
for the author himself,
650
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,315
not so much because it results
651
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,914
in something different
than what he had in mind,
652
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:07,957
but because
the real thing came out!
653
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,956
When I look at things,
654
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,272
I have a rational, critical eye
that I take from my secular culture,
655
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:19,950
middle-class and then Marxist.
656
00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,393
Therefore there is
a continuous critical exercise
657
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,556
of my reason over world events.
658
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,999
But my real vision,
the older, more archaic one,
659
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,675
given to me at birth
and shaped in my early childhood,
660
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,999
my original vision
is a sacred vision of things.
661
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,517
In the end, I see the world like those
who have a poetic vocation do,
662
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,240
that is, like a miraculous,
almost sacred fact.
663
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,029
And nothing can desecrate
my fundamental sacredness.
664
00:51:53,720 --> 00:51:58,874
I think that no artist
in any society is free.
665
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,392
Being crushed by the normality
and by the mediocrity
666
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:05,950
of any society
in which he lives,
667
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,868
the artist
is a living contestation.
668
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,030
He always represents the contrary
669
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,957
of the idea that every man
in every society has of himself.
670
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:27,035
In my opinion, a minimum, perhaps
immeasurable, margin of freedom
671
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,391
is always there.
672
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:34,634
I can't say to what point
this is, or is not freedom.
673
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,109
But certainly, something escapes
674
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:41,558
the mathematical logic
of mass culture, for the time being.
675
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,636
What must we do, in the meantime?
676
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,199
What must we do?
677
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,477
Be coherent with our own ideas
and try to do that minimum part
678
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,279
that each of us can do.
What do you want to do?
679
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,751
In short... believe?
680
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:05,156
Even not believe!
As long as not believing is dynamic!
681
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,719
One who doesn't believe
and makes his unbelief a banner
682
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,592
comes to something.
683
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,353
The true reality is that contemporary
man does not and does believe.
684
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,750
But does Pasolini
believe or doesn't he?
685
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,232
I do and I don't.
686
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,354
This is my answer.
687
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,195
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STUDIO ASCI - Crema
59574
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