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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:00,750 --> 00:00:01,458 Almost overnight, 2 00:00:02,083 --> 00:00:04,750 23 cases were boxed up and it's like Wayne did that. 3 00:00:05,458 --> 00:00:09,333 Once Atlanta was provided an out, they took it. 4 00:00:11,959 --> 00:00:14,166 There were so many things that just pointed directly 5 00:00:14,250 --> 00:00:15,458 at Wayne Williams. 6 00:00:15,834 --> 00:00:17,208 It was all fake math. 7 00:00:17,291 --> 00:00:19,500 And they presented it to the jury as hard fact. 8 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,542 Almost every key witness against Wayne Williams 9 00:00:22,625 --> 00:00:25,333 committed perjury or gave misleading testimony. 10 00:00:25,792 --> 00:00:28,875 How do you defend against what we did not know? 11 00:00:29,166 --> 00:00:33,000 Some of these children should not have been attributed 12 00:00:33,083 --> 00:00:34,250 to Wayne Williams. 13 00:00:34,458 --> 00:00:36,959 The person identified to police 14 00:00:37,041 --> 00:00:38,917 had a scar down his face. 15 00:00:39,125 --> 00:00:42,333 The investigators think that there was at least 16 00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:44,125 one other killer. 17 00:01:53,083 --> 00:01:55,917 - Everybody, please stand and join hands. 18 00:01:57,375 --> 00:01:58,792 - Father God, 19 00:01:58,875 --> 00:02:00,625 oh, I ask that you would bless 20 00:02:00,709 --> 00:02:03,208 each and every one that is here, Lord. 21 00:02:04,792 --> 00:02:08,834 Bless every parent, Lord, that lost a child, Lord. 22 00:02:08,917 --> 00:02:11,083 In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 23 00:02:11,166 --> 00:02:12,291 Amen. 24 00:02:13,542 --> 00:02:15,458 - Yeah. 25 00:02:15,542 --> 00:02:18,959 - I stayed with the mothers for a long time. 26 00:02:19,041 --> 00:02:20,208 - Oh, we gonna get started, 27 00:02:20,291 --> 00:02:22,792 and y'all gonna have a chance to tell y'all's story, okay? 28 00:02:22,875 --> 00:02:24,000 - All right. 29 00:02:24,083 --> 00:02:25,500 - Bless you. - Bless you. 30 00:02:25,583 --> 00:02:27,291 We had a little group going on 31 00:02:27,375 --> 00:02:29,333 till about '85. 32 00:02:29,417 --> 00:02:31,333 This lady called Mildred Glover, 33 00:02:31,417 --> 00:02:34,959 we would go to her house every Saturday. 34 00:02:35,041 --> 00:02:37,667 She helped us through a whole lot. 35 00:02:39,583 --> 00:02:42,458 - It was very important that we all stick together 36 00:02:42,542 --> 00:02:43,834 as a group, 37 00:02:43,917 --> 00:02:45,875 the ones that were still alive. 38 00:02:47,583 --> 00:02:50,125 I came in with a 35-millimeter camera 39 00:02:50,208 --> 00:02:53,041 and just started shooting pictures. 40 00:02:57,625 --> 00:03:00,917 - I remember I was at Miss Mildred Glover's. 41 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,417 While a handful of parents and Miss Glover 42 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:05,709 was talking in the home, 43 00:03:05,792 --> 00:03:07,750 me as a child, I'm on the porch, 44 00:03:07,834 --> 00:03:09,375 playing around. 45 00:03:09,458 --> 00:03:11,709 This blue car pulls up. 46 00:03:11,792 --> 00:03:15,250 This guy, tall white guy, 47 00:03:15,333 --> 00:03:16,667 took a brick, 48 00:03:16,750 --> 00:03:18,667 and he slung it through that window, 49 00:03:18,750 --> 00:03:22,375 and I remember Miss Glover's husband 50 00:03:22,458 --> 00:03:24,083 come running out of the door 51 00:03:24,166 --> 00:03:25,875 and asked me, "Ron, what'd you do?" 52 00:03:25,959 --> 00:03:27,667 I said, "I ain't do anything, Mr. Bill. 53 00:03:27,750 --> 00:03:28,875 That man did it." 54 00:03:28,959 --> 00:03:30,917 And he jumps in his car, 55 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,625 and he turns around, 56 00:03:32,709 --> 00:03:36,625 and he did a gesture like that out of the window. 57 00:03:40,291 --> 00:03:42,417 That brick had a note on it. 58 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:45,542 It said, "We gonna kill all you niggers." 59 00:03:45,625 --> 00:03:47,375 That's what that note said. 60 00:03:47,458 --> 00:03:49,333 "We gonna kill all you niggers." 61 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,041 I'll never forget that day. 62 00:03:55,959 --> 00:03:58,750 - All these strange things happen 63 00:03:58,834 --> 00:04:01,375 related to the case. 64 00:04:01,458 --> 00:04:03,375 Wayne was in jail... 65 00:04:03,458 --> 00:04:06,542 might've been a couple of years. 66 00:04:06,625 --> 00:04:10,583 And I'd been working to get the next appeal ready 67 00:04:10,667 --> 00:04:13,417 when something new come into the mix. 68 00:04:15,709 --> 00:04:18,750 So my offices was on Ralph McGill. 69 00:04:18,834 --> 00:04:22,875 I remember coming up on my doorstep, 70 00:04:22,959 --> 00:04:24,625 there was a package 71 00:04:24,709 --> 00:04:27,166 that was left for me. 72 00:04:27,250 --> 00:04:30,917 I don't know who brought it. 73 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,834 Maybe I do know who brought it, but I can't say. 74 00:04:33,917 --> 00:04:38,166 But man, it was incredible. 75 00:04:41,583 --> 00:04:44,458 There was page after page. 76 00:04:44,542 --> 00:04:47,834 Some of it was hand-written longhand. 77 00:04:47,917 --> 00:04:49,792 Some of it was typed up. 78 00:04:49,875 --> 00:04:54,458 Every bit of it was about an undercover investigation 79 00:04:54,542 --> 00:04:57,375 which took place in early '81. 80 00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:01,000 - The Georgia Bureau of Investigation 81 00:05:01,083 --> 00:05:05,500 had opened up an entire investigation 82 00:05:05,583 --> 00:05:09,542 focusing on Ku Klux Klan involvement in the killings. 83 00:05:13,250 --> 00:05:15,667 It had been kept completely secret, 84 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:18,000 and indeed, separate and apart from 85 00:05:18,083 --> 00:05:20,458 the task force that was investigating the murders, 86 00:05:20,542 --> 00:05:22,417 separate from the prosecuting authorities. 87 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:25,458 That evidence had never been presented 88 00:05:25,542 --> 00:05:27,500 to the defense at any time. 89 00:05:27,583 --> 00:05:29,208 - I was excited, man. 90 00:05:29,291 --> 00:05:32,208 I was excited because I thought these files, 91 00:05:32,291 --> 00:05:33,959 the anonymous package, 92 00:05:34,041 --> 00:05:39,375 was overwhelming violation of the Brady Law. 93 00:05:39,458 --> 00:05:40,875 - The United States Supreme Court, 94 00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:43,792 in a case called Brady versus Maryland, 95 00:05:43,875 --> 00:05:46,583 held that the prosecution is required 96 00:05:46,667 --> 00:05:48,375 to provide to the defense 97 00:05:48,458 --> 00:05:50,542 any and all evidence 98 00:05:50,625 --> 00:05:55,875 that tends to exonerate or exculpate a defendant. 99 00:05:55,959 --> 00:05:58,208 Because the prosecution and the police 100 00:05:58,291 --> 00:06:01,041 tend to have the ability to collect far more evidence 101 00:06:01,125 --> 00:06:02,542 than the defense does, 102 00:06:02,625 --> 00:06:04,041 they have to disclose it. 103 00:06:04,125 --> 00:06:07,208 In this case, they didn't do it. 104 00:06:07,291 --> 00:06:10,500 - It was a no-brainer that this would give Wayne 105 00:06:10,583 --> 00:06:12,375 a new trial. 106 00:06:12,458 --> 00:06:14,542 - Wayne Williams is being represented 107 00:06:14,625 --> 00:06:16,083 in this hearing for a new trial 108 00:06:16,166 --> 00:06:18,542 by his former attorney, Lynn Whatley, 109 00:06:18,625 --> 00:06:21,458 and two of this country's most prominent attorneys, 110 00:06:21,542 --> 00:06:23,875 Bobby Lee Cook of Summerville, Georgia, 111 00:06:23,959 --> 00:06:26,583 and William Kunstler of New York. 112 00:06:26,667 --> 00:06:29,250 - I'm here in my antiquity, 113 00:06:29,333 --> 00:06:31,750 hoping to do some good in the world. 114 00:06:31,834 --> 00:06:34,458 - I had always admired William Kunstler, 115 00:06:34,542 --> 00:06:36,959 even as a very young person. 116 00:06:37,041 --> 00:06:39,458 I watched his work in the Chicago Eight, 117 00:06:39,542 --> 00:06:42,291 which later became the Chicago Seven trial. 118 00:06:42,375 --> 00:06:43,417 He fought the House 119 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:45,917 of Un-American Activities Committee. 120 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,291 He represented Dr. King. 121 00:06:47,375 --> 00:06:49,041 He represented the Black Panthers, 122 00:06:49,125 --> 00:06:51,417 the anti-war movement, the American Indian movement, 123 00:06:51,500 --> 00:06:52,709 and it's like, "Wow. 124 00:06:52,792 --> 00:06:55,250 That's who I want to be when I grow up." 125 00:06:55,333 --> 00:06:57,417 - Civil rights specialist William Kunstler 126 00:06:57,500 --> 00:06:59,625 and Harvard Law School's Alan Dershowitz say 127 00:06:59,709 --> 00:07:01,625 they have proof that police withheld evidence 128 00:07:01,709 --> 00:07:03,667 of a possible Ku Klux Klan suspect 129 00:07:03,750 --> 00:07:04,792 out of fear. 130 00:07:04,875 --> 00:07:06,125 - We're asking to have an opportunity 131 00:07:06,208 --> 00:07:07,458 to see all the files. 132 00:07:07,542 --> 00:07:09,166 Let's have a fair fight. 133 00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:11,542 Let's have a true scientific test, 134 00:07:11,625 --> 00:07:14,166 and let the chips fall where they may 135 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:15,959 without any loaded dice. 136 00:07:16,041 --> 00:07:20,792 - And, of course, we had the amazing Bobby Lee Cook. 137 00:07:20,875 --> 00:07:23,792 He was already a legendary figure 138 00:07:23,875 --> 00:07:25,834 in Georgia legal circles. 139 00:07:30,917 --> 00:07:32,792 - There's no other way to talk about Bobby Lee Cook 140 00:07:32,875 --> 00:07:34,458 other than brilliant. 141 00:07:34,542 --> 00:07:37,000 They say the "Matlock" television series 142 00:07:37,083 --> 00:07:39,083 was based on Bobby Lee Cook. 143 00:07:39,166 --> 00:07:41,959 - We've heard some pretty confusing testimony 144 00:07:42,041 --> 00:07:42,959 around here lately. 145 00:07:43,041 --> 00:07:45,166 First, Lucas perjures himself, 146 00:07:45,250 --> 00:07:46,834 and then your wife perjures herself. 147 00:07:46,917 --> 00:07:48,125 What's going on? 148 00:07:49,917 --> 00:07:54,000 - So we had a pretty all-star team. 149 00:07:54,083 --> 00:07:57,375 The hearings were down in Butts County, 150 00:07:57,458 --> 00:08:00,166 about an hour outside of Atlanta. 151 00:08:00,250 --> 00:08:03,291 That's where the electric chair is, 152 00:08:03,375 --> 00:08:04,709 down there, Butts County. 153 00:08:11,834 --> 00:08:16,500 The hearings are set in this old courtroom. 154 00:08:16,583 --> 00:08:19,500 The press was there. 155 00:08:19,583 --> 00:08:21,375 The courtroom was full, 156 00:08:21,458 --> 00:08:25,458 and it played itself out pretty big. 157 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:37,583 - You ladies and gentlemen ready to proceed now? 158 00:08:37,667 --> 00:08:39,792 - Yes, we are. 159 00:08:39,875 --> 00:08:42,041 Judge, we'd like to begin this proceeding 160 00:08:42,125 --> 00:08:44,542 with a short overview. 161 00:08:44,625 --> 00:08:49,333 We will present a plethora of undisclosed documents 162 00:08:49,417 --> 00:08:51,208 and evidence that we have collected 163 00:08:51,291 --> 00:08:54,583 since the trial. 164 00:08:54,667 --> 00:08:58,417 We do expect to show that Williams, in fact, 165 00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:00,750 was denied his constitutional rights 166 00:09:00,834 --> 00:09:03,750 in a very abundant fashion. 167 00:09:03,834 --> 00:09:05,959 - The first witness today, Billy Joe Whitaker, 168 00:09:06,041 --> 00:09:08,291 says he worked as a police informant 169 00:09:08,375 --> 00:09:10,959 during the missing and murdered investigation. 170 00:09:11,041 --> 00:09:12,583 - Why did you come to see me? 171 00:09:12,667 --> 00:09:14,250 I believe you called me, did you not? 172 00:09:14,333 --> 00:09:17,333 - Yes, sir. - And why did you do that? 173 00:09:17,417 --> 00:09:18,917 - I figured, "Well, 174 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,583 "here's a man in a penitentiary, 175 00:09:20,667 --> 00:09:22,250 "been there eight or ten years, 176 00:09:22,333 --> 00:09:24,250 "and I know he's not guilty of what-- 177 00:09:24,333 --> 00:09:25,792 the ones they convicted him of." 178 00:09:25,875 --> 00:09:26,917 He might've killed the rest of them. 179 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,250 I don't know about that. 180 00:09:28,333 --> 00:09:30,083 But I knew in my own mind, 181 00:09:30,166 --> 00:09:32,291 and the GBI knew it, that this man didn't-- 182 00:09:32,375 --> 00:09:34,917 he didn't kill those two people. 183 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,291 - That's the reason you came to me? 184 00:09:36,375 --> 00:09:38,125 - Yes, sir. 185 00:09:38,208 --> 00:09:39,917 - Billy Whitaker 186 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,208 was a confidential informant 187 00:09:42,291 --> 00:09:44,375 who had infiltrated the Klan. 188 00:09:44,458 --> 00:09:45,917 - Hail victory. 189 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,583 Hail victory! 190 00:09:47,667 --> 00:09:48,583 - Hail victory. 191 00:09:48,667 --> 00:09:50,000 Hail victory! 192 00:09:50,083 --> 00:09:53,667 - The first I heard of potential Klan involvement 193 00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:56,125 was a detective with Atlanta 194 00:09:56,208 --> 00:09:58,083 named Aubrey Melton. 195 00:10:00,834 --> 00:10:03,458 Melton came forward to the GBI 196 00:10:03,542 --> 00:10:05,792 with a confidential informant. 197 00:10:05,875 --> 00:10:08,333 Melton was a good street cop, 198 00:10:08,417 --> 00:10:09,917 but we had the capacity 199 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,000 to bring more resources to the table. 200 00:10:13,083 --> 00:10:17,333 We took the informant's information very seriously. 201 00:10:17,417 --> 00:10:19,375 My boss detached me 202 00:10:19,458 --> 00:10:22,792 to head up the Klan investigation. 203 00:10:25,834 --> 00:10:27,000 The Klan was engaged 204 00:10:27,083 --> 00:10:29,667 in a lot of activity at the time. 205 00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:31,875 They were marching on weekends, 206 00:10:31,959 --> 00:10:33,917 and they were very disruptive. 207 00:10:35,542 --> 00:10:37,709 The Klan clearly had 208 00:10:37,792 --> 00:10:40,041 every right to march and protest... 209 00:10:40,125 --> 00:10:41,709 - Go home, nigger! 210 00:10:41,792 --> 00:10:44,000 - But when you enter criminal activity, 211 00:10:44,083 --> 00:10:45,625 they crossed the line 212 00:10:45,709 --> 00:10:47,709 to bring our attention to them. 213 00:10:49,417 --> 00:10:53,000 - The GBI investigation focuses on the Sanders family. 214 00:10:53,083 --> 00:10:54,166 There are six brothers, 215 00:10:54,250 --> 00:10:55,542 and the Sanders brothers are involved 216 00:10:55,625 --> 00:10:57,291 in an offshoot of the Klan 217 00:10:57,375 --> 00:10:59,166 called the National States' Rights Party, 218 00:10:59,250 --> 00:11:00,667 or the NSRP. 219 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:03,542 It was initially founded by J.B. Stoner. 220 00:11:03,625 --> 00:11:06,333 - Only way Forsyth County can have law and order 221 00:11:06,417 --> 00:11:07,625 and peace and tranquility... 222 00:11:07,709 --> 00:11:09,208 Is keep the niggers out. 223 00:11:09,291 --> 00:11:11,417 - And they basically said the KKK 224 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:12,709 were not radical enough. 225 00:11:12,792 --> 00:11:14,583 One of their earliest recruits 226 00:11:14,667 --> 00:11:17,000 was Joseph Paul Franklin, 227 00:11:17,083 --> 00:11:19,792 who was going around the country 228 00:11:19,875 --> 00:11:23,750 shooting any integrated couple that he saw. 229 00:11:23,834 --> 00:11:25,750 So that's just--you know, give you some idea 230 00:11:25,834 --> 00:11:27,375 about the NSRP. 231 00:11:27,458 --> 00:11:29,875 - White power! - White power! 232 00:11:29,959 --> 00:11:31,750 - One of their chief officers 233 00:11:31,834 --> 00:11:33,750 was Donald Willard Sanders. 234 00:11:35,041 --> 00:11:36,792 He's a third-ranking officer 235 00:11:36,875 --> 00:11:38,208 under J.B. Stoner 236 00:11:40,417 --> 00:11:41,709 He was one of the six brothers 237 00:11:41,792 --> 00:11:43,083 in the Sanders clan. 238 00:11:44,792 --> 00:11:46,375 They were notorious drug addicts. 239 00:11:46,458 --> 00:11:47,750 I mean, they shot every drug in the book, 240 00:11:47,834 --> 00:11:50,959 and they sold every drug in the book. 241 00:11:51,041 --> 00:11:53,083 The main suspects were the older brothers, 242 00:11:53,166 --> 00:11:55,625 Don Sanders, Jerry Sanders, 243 00:11:55,709 --> 00:11:57,208 and Charles Sanders. 244 00:11:58,834 --> 00:12:01,792 - How long had you known Charles T. Sanders? 245 00:12:01,875 --> 00:12:03,834 - Well, at that time, I'd probably known him 246 00:12:03,917 --> 00:12:05,250 ten years. 247 00:12:05,333 --> 00:12:07,208 Charles said-- 248 00:12:07,291 --> 00:12:09,875 he was always trying to get me to join the Klan, you know, 249 00:12:09,959 --> 00:12:12,250 and... 250 00:12:12,333 --> 00:12:15,542 they said they had a lot of money behind them, 251 00:12:15,625 --> 00:12:17,083 people I didn't know, 252 00:12:17,166 --> 00:12:20,792 and people even he didn't know, he said. 253 00:12:20,875 --> 00:12:22,709 Charles took me downstairs 254 00:12:22,792 --> 00:12:24,417 in the garage. 255 00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:26,417 They had bazookas, they had-- 256 00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:27,583 - Bazookas? 257 00:12:27,667 --> 00:12:28,792 - Bazookas, yeah. 258 00:12:28,875 --> 00:12:30,667 They had hand grenades. 259 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:33,291 They had C-2 and C-4 explosives. 260 00:12:33,375 --> 00:12:35,166 Well, they had police uniforms, 261 00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:37,458 Atlanta police uniforms. They had... 262 00:12:37,542 --> 00:12:39,959 - The Sanders brothers had all these different uniforms. 263 00:12:40,041 --> 00:12:41,542 - Had DeKalb County uniform. 264 00:12:41,625 --> 00:12:43,792 - Coca-Cola, Purolator. 265 00:12:43,875 --> 00:12:46,291 - They had sanitation uniforms. 266 00:12:46,375 --> 00:12:49,125 - So maybe this let them be in certain places undetected. 267 00:12:51,041 --> 00:12:53,291 - One of the theories was that the perpetrator 268 00:12:53,375 --> 00:12:54,917 had to be somebody that was gonna 269 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,500 walk around that neighborhood 270 00:12:56,583 --> 00:12:57,750 almost invisible, 271 00:12:57,834 --> 00:12:58,917 so like a postman 272 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,291 or a police officer. 273 00:13:03,083 --> 00:13:04,792 - It's possible that these children 274 00:13:04,875 --> 00:13:07,000 are being captured by the Klan 275 00:13:07,083 --> 00:13:09,625 dressed in law enforcement uniforms. 276 00:13:09,709 --> 00:13:11,291 - You know, everybody, everything evolves, 277 00:13:11,375 --> 00:13:12,625 and the Klan had evolved. 278 00:13:12,709 --> 00:13:17,000 They had this idea where we're going to start a race war. 279 00:13:17,083 --> 00:13:19,667 - We're convinced that there's a race war 280 00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:22,417 that is inevitable in this country. 281 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:25,083 We feel that there will be so much shooting 282 00:13:25,166 --> 00:13:26,625 and burning and looting and rioting 283 00:13:26,709 --> 00:13:28,291 that literally, the authorities 284 00:13:28,375 --> 00:13:30,750 will not be able to cope with it. 285 00:13:30,834 --> 00:13:32,250 - So what will Klansmen do? 286 00:13:32,333 --> 00:13:34,500 - Well, we're gonna defend ourselves and our property 287 00:13:34,583 --> 00:13:38,333 and help assist other people in doing the same. 288 00:13:38,417 --> 00:13:41,625 - At the time, there was a lot of uncertainty 289 00:13:41,709 --> 00:13:44,166 about who was going to control the political structure, 290 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:46,834 who was going to control the economic resources, 291 00:13:46,917 --> 00:13:49,041 and the Klan was empowered. 292 00:13:49,125 --> 00:13:51,667 They were making their presence felt. 293 00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:53,834 - It was like this was a plan 294 00:13:53,917 --> 00:13:58,583 to diminish Atlanta's and Maynard Jackson's success. 295 00:14:00,458 --> 00:14:02,959 - These were not people who were simply 296 00:14:03,041 --> 00:14:06,208 play-acting at being bad guys. 297 00:14:06,291 --> 00:14:09,875 And so Aubrey Melton persuaded 298 00:14:09,959 --> 00:14:14,417 the GBI to apply for wiretap warrants, 299 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:16,917 which can only be made on the showing 300 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,917 of probable cause to believe the people involved 301 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,875 had committed a crime, 302 00:14:21,959 --> 00:14:23,542 in this case, the child murders. 303 00:14:23,625 --> 00:14:25,542 - They wanted me to wear a bug. 304 00:14:25,625 --> 00:14:27,375 - Did you agree to that? 305 00:14:27,458 --> 00:14:28,917 - I didn't care what they did. You know, I was trying-- 306 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,375 - You agreed to it. - I was trying to help them 307 00:14:30,458 --> 00:14:31,917 catch the people doing that. 308 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,375 - How did they wire you up? 309 00:14:34,458 --> 00:14:36,667 - They just put it on me and taped it around me. 310 00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:38,917 - While the wiretap was in progress, 311 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,291 we also conducted physical surveillance. 312 00:14:44,458 --> 00:14:47,542 - There were, to the best of your knowledge, 313 00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:49,750 dozens, if not hundreds, of those tapes. 314 00:14:49,834 --> 00:14:50,917 Isn't that right? 315 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,792 - There were several 316 00:14:52,875 --> 00:14:55,417 reel-to-reel tapes made. 317 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,417 When you monitor, you monitor 24/7, 318 00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:00,542 from when they get up to when they go to bed, 319 00:15:00,625 --> 00:15:04,875 hours and hours, days and days of tapes. 320 00:15:04,959 --> 00:15:07,917 - Was there ever any conversation that you had 321 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,709 that was recorded 322 00:15:09,792 --> 00:15:13,041 with reference to what Charles Sanders 323 00:15:13,125 --> 00:15:16,917 and his group were doing with children? 324 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,834 - They was killing niggers. That's what he said. 325 00:15:19,917 --> 00:15:21,333 He told me, "We're killing niggers. 326 00:15:21,417 --> 00:15:23,625 We're gonna start killing females too." 327 00:15:28,041 --> 00:15:30,083 He said, "We killed a lot of these fucking niggers." 328 00:15:40,166 --> 00:15:44,125 - When a man is charged with the killing of 29 people, 329 00:15:44,208 --> 00:15:46,291 and they charge him for two, 330 00:15:46,375 --> 00:15:48,375 there's a lot of unanswered questions. 331 00:15:49,333 --> 00:15:50,834 - Like what? 332 00:15:50,917 --> 00:15:54,208 - Like what happened to the other 27? 333 00:15:54,291 --> 00:15:57,125 There was 29. He was convicted on 2. 334 00:15:58,667 --> 00:15:59,625 - I'd be interested to know what happened-- 335 00:15:59,709 --> 00:16:01,166 - John, you ain't rolling that, are you? 336 00:16:01,250 --> 00:16:02,291 - Hmm? - Yes. 337 00:16:02,375 --> 00:16:03,542 - You're not rolling this, are you? 338 00:16:03,625 --> 00:16:04,625 - Yes. - I'm rolling. 339 00:16:05,917 --> 00:16:09,000 - I would think there's a lot of unanswered questions. 340 00:16:09,083 --> 00:16:10,834 You don't? I mean... 341 00:16:10,917 --> 00:16:14,417 there's 27 unsolved mysteries out there. 342 00:16:22,625 --> 00:16:26,709 And your name is surfacing 343 00:16:26,792 --> 00:16:29,667 in connection with... 344 00:16:34,750 --> 00:16:37,417 In connection with this quote that... 345 00:16:39,542 --> 00:16:41,166 "Yeah, we damn sure did. 346 00:16:41,250 --> 00:16:43,458 We killed a lot of them niggers." 347 00:16:48,458 --> 00:16:49,542 - That's a blatant lie. 348 00:16:49,625 --> 00:16:53,000 That's a blatant lie from Mr. Bill Whitaker, 349 00:16:53,083 --> 00:16:56,625 and that's a blatant lie from the defense. 350 00:17:00,083 --> 00:17:02,917 - You reported all of this to Mr. Melton. 351 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,375 - Well, I told him I knew about-- 352 00:17:06,458 --> 00:17:08,041 about one of those kids getting killed, 353 00:17:08,125 --> 00:17:09,542 who it was that did it, 354 00:17:09,625 --> 00:17:12,375 and he had told me he was gonna do it, 355 00:17:12,458 --> 00:17:13,959 and it happened. 356 00:17:14,041 --> 00:17:15,750 I read it in the paper, so I called Melton. 357 00:17:15,834 --> 00:17:17,500 - All right. What'd you tell Mr. Melton? 358 00:17:17,583 --> 00:17:19,834 - Well, I told him that I believed Charles Sanders 359 00:17:19,917 --> 00:17:21,500 of the Ku Klux Klan 360 00:17:21,583 --> 00:17:24,166 killed this one kid named Geter. 361 00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:26,208 This little kid run into his van. 362 00:17:26,291 --> 00:17:27,250 - What little kid? 363 00:17:27,333 --> 00:17:29,917 - Geter, on a go-cart. 364 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,083 He lost control of it, 365 00:17:31,166 --> 00:17:33,250 and he run into the side of that van. 366 00:17:33,333 --> 00:17:35,959 - Geter ran into Sanders's car with the go-cart? 367 00:17:36,041 --> 00:17:38,375 - Yeah, and he said, "I'm gonna" -- 368 00:17:38,458 --> 00:17:40,458 well, I don't want to say that. - Use the words that he said. 369 00:17:40,542 --> 00:17:43,083 This is a court, court of law, 370 00:17:43,166 --> 00:17:45,875 and use the words that he said. 371 00:17:47,166 --> 00:17:48,291 - Well, you got ladies in here. 372 00:17:48,375 --> 00:17:51,083 - That's all right. You go ahead. 373 00:17:51,166 --> 00:17:52,125 - Well, he said, "I'm gonna kill 374 00:17:52,208 --> 00:17:53,458 "that little black bastard, 375 00:17:53,542 --> 00:17:55,125 "and I'm gonna choke him to death with my dick 376 00:17:55,208 --> 00:17:57,041 and put him on Martin Luther King's grave." 377 00:17:58,667 --> 00:18:00,875 - You reported all of this to Mr. Melton. 378 00:18:00,959 --> 00:18:02,583 - To Melton, yeah. 379 00:18:02,667 --> 00:18:06,000 - Whitaker was able to link one of the Sanders 380 00:18:06,083 --> 00:18:08,125 to the case of Lubie Geter, 381 00:18:08,208 --> 00:18:10,458 whose death was ultimately used 382 00:18:10,542 --> 00:18:12,291 against Wayne Williams 383 00:18:12,375 --> 00:18:15,250 as one of the ten pattern cases. 384 00:18:16,375 --> 00:18:19,041 That's significant, because that actually ties 385 00:18:19,125 --> 00:18:20,583 a member of the Klan 386 00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:23,458 directly to one of the children 387 00:18:23,542 --> 00:18:26,291 that Wayne was credited with murdering. 388 00:18:30,709 --> 00:18:33,458 - I had known Lubie probably from the sixth grade. 389 00:18:33,542 --> 00:18:36,333 Lubie and I were friends and classmates. 390 00:18:36,417 --> 00:18:37,500 He was a good kid. 391 00:18:37,583 --> 00:18:38,834 You know, he got in trouble like I did in school 392 00:18:38,917 --> 00:18:40,250 a few times, 393 00:18:40,333 --> 00:18:41,375 talking in class, 394 00:18:41,458 --> 00:18:42,792 maybe talking back to teachers here and there, 395 00:18:42,875 --> 00:18:45,125 but normal, fun, loving kid. 396 00:18:47,959 --> 00:18:49,834 He was one of the few kids in our community 397 00:18:49,917 --> 00:18:52,792 that still had both parents active in his life. 398 00:18:54,917 --> 00:18:57,166 I remember, like, before Christmas break, 399 00:18:57,250 --> 00:18:58,333 Lubie was talking to us. 400 00:18:58,417 --> 00:19:00,417 He was telling us about these car care product 401 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,166 that he was selling. 402 00:19:02,250 --> 00:19:04,166 But close to when school opened back up again 403 00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:05,667 after the Christmas break, 404 00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:08,542 we saw on the news that Lubie was missing. 405 00:19:08,625 --> 00:19:10,458 - 14-year-old Lubie Geter 406 00:19:10,542 --> 00:19:12,834 went to a South Side Atlanta shopping center 407 00:19:12,917 --> 00:19:14,792 on Saturday to sell air fresheners 408 00:19:14,875 --> 00:19:15,959 for automobiles. 409 00:19:16,041 --> 00:19:17,834 He never came home. 410 00:19:17,917 --> 00:19:20,458 - Police say, so far, they're stumped. 411 00:19:21,709 --> 00:19:24,709 - A month afterwards is when they found his body. 412 00:19:28,792 --> 00:19:30,709 After he was found dead, 413 00:19:30,792 --> 00:19:32,500 there were some nights I didn't sleep. 414 00:19:34,291 --> 00:19:37,000 There was always a ringing bell in the back of my head, like, 415 00:19:37,083 --> 00:19:40,208 normal, you know, Atlanta teenager. 416 00:19:40,291 --> 00:19:41,875 How could he get caught up in the middle of this? 417 00:19:46,166 --> 00:19:48,041 - This Mr. Whitaker says 418 00:19:48,125 --> 00:19:50,375 that he asked Sanders specifically 419 00:19:50,458 --> 00:19:53,500 about 14-year-old Lubie Geter. 420 00:19:55,792 --> 00:19:57,875 - Well, I can remember this very clearly. 421 00:19:57,959 --> 00:20:04,834 Uh, Mr. Whitaker had brought this to my attention 422 00:20:04,917 --> 00:20:09,000 a couple days after Lubie Geter was killed. 423 00:20:11,208 --> 00:20:13,709 And he was telling me 424 00:20:13,792 --> 00:20:18,083 that he was gonna kill that... black boy 425 00:20:18,166 --> 00:20:19,917 because he run into my car. 426 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,583 - Well, that's what he's saying you said. 427 00:20:21,667 --> 00:20:23,750 - True. 428 00:20:23,834 --> 00:20:24,917 He's turning it around. 429 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,667 That's not the way it happened. 430 00:20:28,166 --> 00:20:29,750 - Did there come a point in time 431 00:20:29,834 --> 00:20:33,291 in which they sent you to Charles Sanders's house 432 00:20:33,375 --> 00:20:35,250 and wanted you to ask specific questions 433 00:20:35,333 --> 00:20:36,917 about the Geter boy? 434 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,083 - Yeah. 435 00:20:38,166 --> 00:20:40,417 I said, "Well, you killed that damn Geter kid, 436 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:41,417 didn't you?" 437 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,417 He said, "Yeah, I damn sure did. 438 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:45,834 I killed the little black bastard." 439 00:20:45,917 --> 00:20:47,458 - Was that recorded? 440 00:20:47,542 --> 00:20:49,250 - I assume it--I don't know why it wouldn't have-- 441 00:20:49,333 --> 00:20:51,041 if they didn't get it, I don't know why they didn't get it. 442 00:20:51,125 --> 00:20:55,125 - Charles T. Sanders admitted killing Geter. 443 00:20:55,208 --> 00:20:56,208 - The next witness, 444 00:20:56,291 --> 00:20:58,500 former Atlanta police chief George Napper 445 00:20:58,583 --> 00:21:00,417 says he does not remember 446 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:02,041 his officers ever telling him 447 00:21:02,125 --> 00:21:04,417 about possible Klan involvement. 448 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:08,375 - He had told them about the Klan being involved 449 00:21:08,458 --> 00:21:09,917 in the child murders? 450 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,458 - No, I don't recall that at all. 451 00:21:11,542 --> 00:21:13,291 - Well, you say "I don't recall." 452 00:21:13,375 --> 00:21:15,667 That's your answer to a lot of questions here today. 453 00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:17,125 Does that mean you don't recall, 454 00:21:17,208 --> 00:21:18,458 he might have told you, 455 00:21:18,542 --> 00:21:21,291 or you have no memory now, or it didn't happen? 456 00:21:21,375 --> 00:21:23,458 - I don't know whether it happened or not. 457 00:21:23,542 --> 00:21:25,333 - You have a black man testifying. 458 00:21:25,417 --> 00:21:27,083 - I don't think so, no. 459 00:21:27,166 --> 00:21:28,709 - You mean to tell me that 460 00:21:28,792 --> 00:21:30,959 the Klan is involved 461 00:21:31,041 --> 00:21:33,125 in the missing and murdered children case, 462 00:21:33,208 --> 00:21:35,917 and you don't remember? 463 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,458 They knew about it. 464 00:21:37,542 --> 00:21:39,333 - I don't recall that happening. 465 00:21:39,417 --> 00:21:43,667 - You know, they gave a lot of disingenuous answers. 466 00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:45,667 - Have you ever seen that document before? 467 00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:48,333 - Not that I know of. I don't recall, so. 468 00:21:48,417 --> 00:21:50,875 I don't remember. I--you know, I'm sure 469 00:21:50,959 --> 00:21:52,208 he said something, I just don't remember 470 00:21:52,291 --> 00:21:54,834 that the-- that there was anything said 471 00:21:54,917 --> 00:21:57,667 other than that, if there was information 472 00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:59,667 pertaining to our investigation, 473 00:21:59,750 --> 00:22:01,834 that they would let us know what was going on. 474 00:22:01,917 --> 00:22:04,000 - I'm afraid that at this time, 475 00:22:04,083 --> 00:22:07,333 I'm not clear on exactly what to report. 476 00:22:07,417 --> 00:22:10,000 - Push the mic up a little bit. There. 477 00:22:10,083 --> 00:22:12,166 - I don't know. - I do not know. 478 00:22:12,250 --> 00:22:14,792 I don't recall that. - I don't recall. 479 00:22:14,875 --> 00:22:16,208 - My answer is, I don't recall. 480 00:22:16,291 --> 00:22:18,208 - I don't recall that I remember 481 00:22:18,291 --> 00:22:20,208 exactly that it said Lubie Geter. 482 00:22:20,291 --> 00:22:22,041 - I don't know. 483 00:22:22,125 --> 00:22:23,834 - You ever had any discussion about that? 484 00:22:23,917 --> 00:22:25,583 - I don't have a recall, sir. 485 00:22:27,291 --> 00:22:29,792 - But that would be bad, now, wouldn't it? 486 00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:35,250 - Well, it's getting to the point. 487 00:22:35,333 --> 00:22:38,166 It's right lunchtime. All right. 488 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:39,333 - We're hearing about some lapses 489 00:22:39,417 --> 00:22:40,583 of memory here. 490 00:22:40,667 --> 00:22:42,041 Do you believe these gentlemen when they say they don't-- 491 00:22:42,125 --> 00:22:43,000 - No, I don't. 492 00:22:43,083 --> 00:22:45,208 These are convenient lapses of memory. 493 00:22:45,291 --> 00:22:47,417 Can you imagine the chief of police 494 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,542 can't recall anything that happened 495 00:22:49,625 --> 00:22:52,542 in the most major investigation in the history of Atlanta, 496 00:22:52,625 --> 00:22:54,083 if not of Georgia? 497 00:22:54,166 --> 00:22:55,542 And he can't remember anything? 498 00:22:55,625 --> 00:22:57,709 I can't recall this, I can't recall that. 499 00:22:57,792 --> 00:23:00,083 He can't recall that someone confessed 500 00:23:00,166 --> 00:23:01,792 to the murder of Lubie Geter? 501 00:23:01,875 --> 00:23:03,750 Impossible. 502 00:23:03,834 --> 00:23:05,917 - Because of the nature of the case, 503 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,125 the sensitivity of the case, 504 00:23:08,208 --> 00:23:10,250 we went far above and beyond. 505 00:23:10,333 --> 00:23:13,583 It is very uncommon that you would run 506 00:23:13,667 --> 00:23:15,917 multiple electronic surveillances, 507 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,208 multiple physical surveillances. 508 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,250 - The GBI looked for anything associated with the case. 509 00:23:24,333 --> 00:23:26,250 They looked for fiber. 510 00:23:26,333 --> 00:23:28,125 They looked for dogs. 511 00:23:28,208 --> 00:23:31,583 - Trace evidence in the case included dog hair 512 00:23:31,667 --> 00:23:34,083 that most likely belonged to a husky 513 00:23:34,166 --> 00:23:35,625 or a malamute. 514 00:23:35,709 --> 00:23:38,333 The Klansmen had a dog. 515 00:23:38,417 --> 00:23:40,250 - Did anyone ask you 516 00:23:40,333 --> 00:23:43,500 to check and see if Charles Sanders had a dog? 517 00:23:43,583 --> 00:23:44,750 - Yes, sir. 518 00:23:44,834 --> 00:23:47,375 - And what did they want to know? 519 00:23:47,458 --> 00:23:49,000 - Well, they wanted some hair off the dog, 520 00:23:49,083 --> 00:23:50,000 and I-- 521 00:23:50,083 --> 00:23:51,792 - Hair off of what dog? 522 00:23:51,875 --> 00:23:53,125 - Charles Sanders' dog. 523 00:23:53,208 --> 00:23:55,959 - What kind of dog did Charles Sanders have? 524 00:23:56,041 --> 00:23:58,208 - Alaskan husky. 525 00:23:59,208 --> 00:24:01,333 - A husky? - Yes, sir. 526 00:24:02,875 --> 00:24:04,625 - Did you ever own a dog? 527 00:24:04,709 --> 00:24:06,458 - Yes. 528 00:24:06,542 --> 00:24:09,625 - A Alaskan malamute? 529 00:24:09,709 --> 00:24:12,625 - No, I never had a... 530 00:24:12,709 --> 00:24:14,959 - And a Siberian husky. 531 00:24:15,041 --> 00:24:17,291 - Well, my dog Trigger, 532 00:24:17,375 --> 00:24:19,917 sh--she was pretty close to a Siberian, 533 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,959 but it was a German shepherd. 534 00:24:23,041 --> 00:24:24,375 I had a German shepherd. 535 00:24:24,458 --> 00:24:26,834 She was pretty close to a Siberian. 536 00:24:26,917 --> 00:24:30,291 But had a little shih tzu puppy, 537 00:24:30,375 --> 00:24:34,125 and I had a German shepherd, 538 00:24:34,208 --> 00:24:36,959 and I also had a pig by the name of Sausage. 539 00:24:38,959 --> 00:24:41,000 - Did Mr. Melton and the GBI officer 540 00:24:41,083 --> 00:24:43,000 ask you to get anything else? 541 00:24:43,083 --> 00:24:44,208 - Well, he said, 542 00:24:44,291 --> 00:24:45,834 "Well, will you get me something out of the house?" 543 00:24:45,917 --> 00:24:47,166 I said, "Yeah, if I can." 544 00:24:47,250 --> 00:24:49,166 He told me just reach down on the carpet 545 00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:51,083 in the living room and get a little-- 546 00:24:51,166 --> 00:24:52,333 you know, just a speck or something-- 547 00:24:52,417 --> 00:24:54,500 you know, just whatever I could pull out. 548 00:24:54,583 --> 00:24:56,417 - What kind of carpet was it? 549 00:24:57,041 --> 00:25:00,792 - Uh, this old green fuzzy carpet. 550 00:25:00,875 --> 00:25:03,667 - So okay, there's a green fiber here as well. 551 00:25:05,291 --> 00:25:07,166 - And then there's a conversation 552 00:25:07,250 --> 00:25:09,208 in April that was recorded. 553 00:25:09,291 --> 00:25:11,583 Terry Sanders says, "Hey, where you going? 554 00:25:11,667 --> 00:25:13,125 Out to get another little kid?" 555 00:25:15,417 --> 00:25:17,208 And Don Sanders said, "Well, yeah, 556 00:25:17,291 --> 00:25:18,959 scope out some places." 557 00:25:20,458 --> 00:25:23,166 A few weeks later, the GBI brought in 558 00:25:23,250 --> 00:25:25,667 Jerry Sanders, Don Sanders, 559 00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:27,250 and Charles Sanders. 560 00:25:28,792 --> 00:25:31,083 - Were you ever picked up? - Yes, I was. 561 00:25:31,166 --> 00:25:32,750 - Can you tell me about that? 562 00:25:32,834 --> 00:25:37,041 - Uh, Mr. Joe Jackson, GBI investigator, 563 00:25:37,125 --> 00:25:39,750 took me to GBI headquarters 564 00:25:39,834 --> 00:25:41,542 and interrogated me. 565 00:25:41,625 --> 00:25:45,417 I was accused of distributing explosives. 566 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:47,750 Uh... 567 00:25:47,834 --> 00:25:50,709 I was accused of killing a young man 568 00:25:50,792 --> 00:25:53,083 by the name of Lubie Geter, 569 00:25:53,166 --> 00:25:55,375 which I don't know nothing about. 570 00:26:03,041 --> 00:26:05,625 You know, they questioned me extensively. 571 00:26:05,709 --> 00:26:07,875 Uh... 572 00:26:07,959 --> 00:26:10,083 and then they took me back to my house. 573 00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:14,417 I think Mr. Jackson realized 574 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:17,542 that I had no knowledge 575 00:26:17,625 --> 00:26:19,709 of his investigation. 576 00:26:22,333 --> 00:26:25,125 - Anyway, there came a point in time 577 00:26:25,208 --> 00:26:31,417 in which you ceased working for the GBI and Mr. Melton. 578 00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:33,750 What blew up this investigation? 579 00:26:33,834 --> 00:26:35,166 When did it stop? 580 00:26:36,542 --> 00:26:37,667 - Well... 581 00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:39,750 - Must be something that happened. 582 00:26:41,834 --> 00:26:44,125 - Well, this man's not gonna like it, 583 00:26:44,208 --> 00:26:45,625 but I'm gonna tell it like it is. 584 00:26:45,709 --> 00:26:48,291 A agent named Jackson, a GBI agent. 585 00:26:48,375 --> 00:26:49,792 - Jackson? - Yeah, which-- 586 00:26:49,875 --> 00:26:51,125 when Melton told me about it, 587 00:26:51,208 --> 00:26:53,083 he said a goddamn idiot GBI agent 588 00:26:53,166 --> 00:26:54,792 blowed it, blowed everything. 589 00:26:54,875 --> 00:26:55,875 I said, "Who is it?" He said, 590 00:26:55,959 --> 00:26:57,750 "That son of a bitch named Jackson." 591 00:26:59,375 --> 00:27:01,583 - State your full name, please. 592 00:27:02,667 --> 00:27:05,458 - Joe Bledsoe Jackson, Jr. 593 00:27:05,542 --> 00:27:09,166 - Did you ask either Terry or Don Sanders 594 00:27:09,250 --> 00:27:10,625 about a conversation 595 00:27:10,709 --> 00:27:12,417 about scoping out some children? 596 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:17,208 - Mr. Cook... - Finding another kid? 597 00:27:17,291 --> 00:27:19,000 - Judge, I'd like the opportunity 598 00:27:19,083 --> 00:27:20,709 to discuss this matter with counsel. 599 00:27:20,792 --> 00:27:23,542 - I'd like for him to answer the question. 600 00:27:23,625 --> 00:27:25,959 - The question is, did you ask 601 00:27:26,041 --> 00:27:28,166 either of the Sanders that during interviews? 602 00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:30,166 - Yes, sir. - Okay. 603 00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:32,667 Now, Judge, if you don't mind, 604 00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:33,750 could you and I go into chambers? 605 00:27:33,834 --> 00:27:35,458 - No, no, I'm not going into chambers. 606 00:27:35,542 --> 00:27:37,000 Mr. Jackson, let's just simplify this. 607 00:27:37,083 --> 00:27:39,000 Answer his question now. 608 00:27:39,083 --> 00:27:40,625 - Yes, sir. 609 00:27:40,709 --> 00:27:42,750 - Well, 610 00:27:42,834 --> 00:27:46,667 what did Terry or Don Sanders say about that? 611 00:27:46,750 --> 00:27:49,083 - They stated-- - That they were just joking? 612 00:27:50,166 --> 00:27:51,542 - That's correct, sir. 613 00:27:51,625 --> 00:27:54,250 They related to me that it was a joking 614 00:27:54,333 --> 00:27:55,959 type of conversation. 615 00:27:56,041 --> 00:27:58,250 - Talking about killing little kids 616 00:27:58,333 --> 00:28:00,208 being a joking conversation. 617 00:28:00,291 --> 00:28:02,583 Did you laugh with them? 618 00:28:02,667 --> 00:28:05,709 - Mr. Cook, the conversation that you refer to 619 00:28:05,792 --> 00:28:08,208 took place on April Fools' Day. 620 00:28:08,291 --> 00:28:10,750 - Oh, I see. That was their explanation, 621 00:28:10,834 --> 00:28:12,792 that the conversation took place 622 00:28:12,875 --> 00:28:14,667 on April Fools' Day? 623 00:28:14,750 --> 00:28:16,041 - That's correct, sir. 624 00:28:16,125 --> 00:28:19,917 - And you accepted that as being a good faith reply? 625 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,250 - That, along with the other surveillance techniques 626 00:28:25,333 --> 00:28:27,959 that we were utilizing during this time period. 627 00:28:29,291 --> 00:28:33,250 - And then there's a matter of the tapes. 628 00:28:33,333 --> 00:28:38,417 - This case generated a number of cassette tapes. 629 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:40,583 - Yes. - What became of those? 630 00:28:40,667 --> 00:28:42,542 - The tapes, to my knowledge, 631 00:28:42,625 --> 00:28:43,750 have been destroyed. 632 00:28:48,667 --> 00:28:54,583 - Wayne Williams was arrested on June 3, 1981. 633 00:28:54,667 --> 00:28:58,417 It says "destroyed 7/31/81." 634 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:01,083 - Yes, sir. - And whose initial is that? 635 00:29:01,166 --> 00:29:02,917 - Those are my initials. 636 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,667 - GBI agent Jackson 637 00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:08,125 destroyed the tapes 638 00:29:08,208 --> 00:29:13,583 while Wayne's original trial was pending, 639 00:29:13,667 --> 00:29:15,917 which looks very suspicious. 640 00:29:18,166 --> 00:29:21,333 Why would they destroy the evidence? 641 00:29:21,417 --> 00:29:24,166 - Did you listen to all of the tape recordings? 642 00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:27,250 - I don't remember listening to each of them, no, sir. 643 00:29:27,333 --> 00:29:29,792 - Well, wouldn't you have listened to all of them? 644 00:29:29,875 --> 00:29:31,792 - I don't know that I heard them all. 645 00:29:31,875 --> 00:29:32,750 I may have. 646 00:29:32,834 --> 00:29:34,291 I don't remember. 647 00:29:34,375 --> 00:29:36,625 - You say you may have heard all of them? 648 00:29:36,709 --> 00:29:38,000 - That's correct. 649 00:29:38,083 --> 00:29:40,083 - And no record was made of it. 650 00:29:40,166 --> 00:29:41,792 No transcript. 651 00:29:41,875 --> 00:29:43,250 - I don't think so. 652 00:29:43,333 --> 00:29:44,500 - And you were investigating 653 00:29:44,583 --> 00:29:46,625 the missing and murdered children. 654 00:29:46,709 --> 00:29:48,333 - What I was investigating 655 00:29:48,417 --> 00:29:50,250 was whether or not this particular group 656 00:29:50,333 --> 00:29:51,458 had anything to do with it... 657 00:29:51,542 --> 00:29:52,792 - Right. - And they did not. 658 00:29:52,875 --> 00:29:54,750 - And they did not, and you concluded that. 659 00:29:54,834 --> 00:29:56,000 - Yes, sir. - And you don't remember 660 00:29:56,083 --> 00:29:57,166 what was on the tapes 661 00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:58,166 'cause you don't even know 662 00:29:58,250 --> 00:29:59,375 that you listened to all of them. 663 00:29:59,458 --> 00:30:02,458 - Well, sir, Mr. Cook, what I do recall for certain 664 00:30:02,542 --> 00:30:05,875 is that there was no mention 665 00:30:05,959 --> 00:30:07,291 in any form or fashion 666 00:30:07,375 --> 00:30:10,500 in which these people were killing any children. 667 00:30:10,583 --> 00:30:11,750 - Well, how would you know that 668 00:30:11,834 --> 00:30:15,041 if you don't remember hearing the tapes? 669 00:30:15,125 --> 00:30:18,208 - Uh, it just--that's the way I recall it. 670 00:30:18,291 --> 00:30:21,625 There's no tie whatsoever to any murders. 671 00:30:27,417 --> 00:30:31,166 - You know, these are Klansmen, rednecks, 672 00:30:31,250 --> 00:30:35,208 who spewed racial rhetoric every day, 673 00:30:35,291 --> 00:30:38,542 just people running their mouths. 674 00:30:38,625 --> 00:30:41,375 Sanders was brought in and polygraphed, 675 00:30:41,458 --> 00:30:42,834 which was negative. 676 00:30:42,917 --> 00:30:44,917 As a result of the searches, 677 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,542 examination of the fiber... 678 00:30:46,625 --> 00:30:48,333 There was no indication 679 00:30:48,417 --> 00:30:50,375 that the Sanders family had killed 680 00:30:50,458 --> 00:30:52,709 any of those children. 681 00:30:52,792 --> 00:30:56,417 The information was determined to be unfounded. 682 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:59,917 As a result, the investigation was closed. 683 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,250 - All right, we'll be in recess, 684 00:31:01,333 --> 00:31:03,250 and if there's nothing else, until 9:00 in the morning. 685 00:31:04,333 --> 00:31:07,000 - I think Mr. Cook, 686 00:31:07,083 --> 00:31:08,709 Mr. Kunstler, 687 00:31:08,792 --> 00:31:11,208 Mr. Whatley, 688 00:31:11,291 --> 00:31:14,333 should really look at what they have. 689 00:31:16,125 --> 00:31:18,750 If you have a case against Charles Sanders 690 00:31:18,834 --> 00:31:20,959 or his family, 691 00:31:21,041 --> 00:31:23,500 put it up, or else shut up. 692 00:31:27,208 --> 00:31:28,750 - You know, other than him boasting 693 00:31:28,834 --> 00:31:30,625 that he was going to do this, 694 00:31:30,709 --> 00:31:33,542 there was no evidence he had done it. 695 00:31:33,625 --> 00:31:35,583 - Anything else? - The end. 696 00:31:39,542 --> 00:31:41,125 - And the evidence on Lubie Geter, 697 00:31:41,208 --> 00:31:43,750 none of it pointed to Charles Sanders. 698 00:31:43,834 --> 00:31:45,250 In other words, there was nothing there 699 00:31:45,333 --> 00:31:48,083 other than a Klansman bragging, apparently, 700 00:31:48,166 --> 00:31:51,250 to another Klansman 701 00:31:51,333 --> 00:31:54,959 about something that... 702 00:31:55,041 --> 00:31:56,208 didn't happen. 703 00:31:56,291 --> 00:31:58,208 - If had been the Sanders, 704 00:31:58,291 --> 00:32:01,166 I would've been the first to put the handcuffs on them. 705 00:32:01,250 --> 00:32:03,458 Uh, it wasn't the Sanders, 706 00:32:03,542 --> 00:32:05,458 and we moved on. 707 00:32:07,041 --> 00:32:10,458 - I was never willing to go so far as to say 708 00:32:10,542 --> 00:32:12,125 that members of the Sanders family 709 00:32:12,208 --> 00:32:13,250 were guilty, 710 00:32:13,333 --> 00:32:15,417 but we will never actually know for sure, 711 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,458 because the tapes were destroyed. 712 00:32:19,917 --> 00:32:21,583 - What I do think: 713 00:32:21,667 --> 00:32:26,458 there was at least as much reliable evidence 714 00:32:26,542 --> 00:32:28,667 against the Sanders family 715 00:32:28,750 --> 00:32:31,250 for one or more of those killings 716 00:32:31,333 --> 00:32:33,458 than there was against Wayne Williams, 717 00:32:33,542 --> 00:32:36,458 and I also believe beyond any possible doubt 718 00:32:36,542 --> 00:32:39,250 that had the jury learned 719 00:32:39,333 --> 00:32:41,583 of the Sanders family involvement, 720 00:32:41,667 --> 00:32:44,792 of the threats against Lubie Geter, 721 00:32:44,875 --> 00:32:47,000 Sanders' husky, 722 00:32:47,083 --> 00:32:48,625 I do think the jury may have come 723 00:32:48,709 --> 00:32:51,041 to a very, very different conclusion. 724 00:32:51,125 --> 00:32:52,792 - Were these people simply incompetent, 725 00:32:52,875 --> 00:32:54,542 or was there some-- - Was who incompetent? 726 00:32:54,625 --> 00:32:56,125 - The police investigation. 727 00:32:56,208 --> 00:32:57,667 - Well, I don't-- 728 00:32:57,750 --> 00:33:00,000 I don't want to characterize it as that. 729 00:33:00,083 --> 00:33:02,125 I don't know what they were. - I think I know what it was. 730 00:33:02,208 --> 00:33:03,417 - You know, I'll let them speak for themselves. 731 00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:04,375 - All right. - I'll speak, 732 00:33:04,458 --> 00:33:05,500 not being from Georgia. 733 00:33:05,583 --> 00:33:07,250 This was a device 734 00:33:07,333 --> 00:33:10,041 to a keep a race war from happening, 735 00:33:10,125 --> 00:33:12,166 and if they indicted someone from the Klan, 736 00:33:12,250 --> 00:33:14,667 that's what was gonna happen, in their opinion, 737 00:33:14,750 --> 00:33:17,000 and if they indicted someone who was black, 738 00:33:17,083 --> 00:33:18,458 it would not happen. 739 00:33:18,542 --> 00:33:20,000 And they made a calculated choice. 740 00:33:20,083 --> 00:33:22,667 They wanted to sacrifice Wayne Williams 741 00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:24,542 in order to keep the peace. 742 00:33:27,166 --> 00:33:30,458 - After Wayne Williams became a suspect, 743 00:33:30,542 --> 00:33:32,542 all of these other investigations 744 00:33:32,625 --> 00:33:34,542 were closed. 745 00:33:34,625 --> 00:33:38,375 Anything that suggested Wayne could be innocent 746 00:33:38,458 --> 00:33:40,709 was simply cast aside 747 00:33:40,792 --> 00:33:44,792 because Wayne Williams solved a lot of problems. 748 00:33:46,166 --> 00:33:49,709 - Not saying that Wayne did it or didn't do it. 749 00:33:49,792 --> 00:33:50,875 I don't know. 750 00:33:50,959 --> 00:33:52,500 But had they pinned this 751 00:33:52,583 --> 00:33:54,750 on somebody white, 752 00:33:54,834 --> 00:33:57,709 especially somebody related to the Klan, 753 00:33:57,792 --> 00:34:00,417 there would have been riots all over America. 754 00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:03,583 America would have been upside down. 755 00:34:03,667 --> 00:34:06,917 The fact that they pinned this on somebody black 756 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,208 shut it down. 757 00:34:10,333 --> 00:34:12,208 - They are killing little children in the city! 758 00:34:12,291 --> 00:34:15,458 - They did not want a second Atlanta burning. 759 00:34:19,291 --> 00:34:22,250 Maynard Jackson had gotten the airport, 760 00:34:22,333 --> 00:34:23,625 and he had gotten all this business. 761 00:34:23,709 --> 00:34:26,750 They did not want it to be destroyed. 762 00:34:28,834 --> 00:34:30,083 - All rise. 763 00:34:30,166 --> 00:34:31,583 Court is now in session, 764 00:34:31,667 --> 00:34:33,959 Honorable Judge Hal Craig presiding. 765 00:34:34,041 --> 00:34:38,417 - The appeals became a very long process. 766 00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:39,834 - Be seated. 767 00:34:41,375 --> 00:34:43,458 - And I remember thinking 768 00:34:43,542 --> 00:34:45,625 enough time had gone by, 769 00:34:45,709 --> 00:34:48,125 the passions had cooled, 770 00:34:48,208 --> 00:34:51,333 the Klan evidence all came out in open court, 771 00:34:51,417 --> 00:34:53,667 and there was no race war. 772 00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:55,625 I thought, "Maybe now 773 00:34:55,709 --> 00:34:58,625 we can have a sensible reckoning." 774 00:35:02,709 --> 00:35:04,458 - Williams, in fact, 775 00:35:04,542 --> 00:35:05,917 was denied his constitutional rights. 776 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,834 - It was a tremendous effort on our part 777 00:35:08,917 --> 00:35:11,792 to show the injustice, 778 00:35:11,875 --> 00:35:13,834 and I think we showed it. 779 00:35:13,917 --> 00:35:16,000 - Well, what has happened today is this. 780 00:35:16,083 --> 00:35:19,250 A Superior Court judge, Harold Craig, 781 00:35:19,333 --> 00:35:22,792 has denied Wayne Williams' plea for a new trial. 782 00:35:25,083 --> 00:35:29,208 - The judge found for the prosecution. 783 00:35:29,291 --> 00:35:32,041 He upheld the conviction, 784 00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:36,834 said no violation of Brady had been made 785 00:35:36,917 --> 00:35:39,667 of any significance. 786 00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:42,500 - The judge said there was nothing here 787 00:35:42,583 --> 00:35:45,375 that could've been useful in any way to the defense 788 00:35:45,458 --> 00:35:48,500 except the sort of red herring that you could throw out, 789 00:35:48,583 --> 00:35:49,959 saying "the Klan was involved," 790 00:35:50,041 --> 00:35:52,166 which we still hear about today, 791 00:35:52,250 --> 00:35:53,542 as if they were involved, 792 00:35:53,625 --> 00:35:55,458 and there was no evidence they were involved. 793 00:35:55,542 --> 00:35:57,500 So the judge on the habeas corpus said 794 00:35:57,583 --> 00:35:59,500 there's nothing they could've used. 795 00:35:59,583 --> 00:36:02,333 - Eh... 796 00:36:02,417 --> 00:36:04,792 it's the worst trial I've ever seen. 797 00:36:04,875 --> 00:36:07,458 It's the worst situation 798 00:36:07,542 --> 00:36:10,750 of unfairness and the deprivation of fairness 799 00:36:10,834 --> 00:36:13,625 that I've seen in 43 years of law practice. 800 00:36:14,625 --> 00:36:17,125 You know, it's a damn disgrace. 801 00:36:18,792 --> 00:36:20,750 - When the decision came out, 802 00:36:20,834 --> 00:36:22,875 Bill Kunstler said, 803 00:36:22,959 --> 00:36:25,375 talking about white people, 804 00:36:25,458 --> 00:36:27,667 quote, "They're all such bullshitters 805 00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:30,000 when it comes to a black man's life." 806 00:36:30,083 --> 00:36:31,375 Close quote. 807 00:36:35,625 --> 00:36:40,083 It was that dashed expectation 808 00:36:40,166 --> 00:36:42,875 that sort of gave rise to my motto 809 00:36:42,959 --> 00:36:44,709 of the ensuing years, 810 00:36:44,792 --> 00:36:46,875 which is, "I have no expectations. 811 00:36:46,959 --> 00:36:48,667 I only have hopes." 812 00:36:48,750 --> 00:36:51,375 Because disappointment is a function of expectations, 813 00:36:51,458 --> 00:36:55,458 and mine, now, pretty low from the legal system. 814 00:37:09,375 --> 00:37:12,125 - It's this enormous injustice. 815 00:37:13,792 --> 00:37:15,542 For the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to say 816 00:37:15,625 --> 00:37:17,375 that they found no evidence 817 00:37:17,458 --> 00:37:20,917 of the Sanders brothers being involved 818 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,208 is hogwash. 819 00:37:28,125 --> 00:37:29,750 There were a number of cases where they found 820 00:37:29,834 --> 00:37:32,458 Caucasian pubic hairs and other hairs on the kids. 821 00:37:33,208 --> 00:37:35,125 They should have known at that point 822 00:37:35,208 --> 00:37:36,875 that they were looking for a white man. 823 00:37:37,542 --> 00:37:39,834 When I'm going through the GBI file, 824 00:37:39,917 --> 00:37:41,667 certain elements struck me 825 00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:43,250 about Don Sanders. 826 00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:45,834 Again, he's secretary 827 00:37:45,917 --> 00:37:48,000 of the National States' Rights Party, 828 00:37:48,083 --> 00:37:50,792 who's trying to start a race war. 829 00:37:50,875 --> 00:37:55,000 Now, this is a 1975 mug shot of Don Sanders. 830 00:37:55,083 --> 00:37:58,000 You will notice a scar on his cheek 831 00:37:58,083 --> 00:38:00,125 and a long scar on his neck. 832 00:38:00,208 --> 00:38:02,291 This, of course, brings me back 833 00:38:02,375 --> 00:38:03,458 to the FBI file 834 00:38:03,542 --> 00:38:06,667 along with the Atlanta Police Department files. 835 00:38:06,750 --> 00:38:09,458 Then you have these eyewitness accounts. 836 00:38:09,542 --> 00:38:10,458 For example, 837 00:38:10,542 --> 00:38:12,792 in the Christopher Richardson case, 838 00:38:12,875 --> 00:38:16,000 you've got a eyewitness saying they saw this white man 839 00:38:16,083 --> 00:38:18,500 kidnap Richardson, 840 00:38:18,583 --> 00:38:20,834 this witness describing the scar 841 00:38:20,917 --> 00:38:22,542 like an arrow on his face. 842 00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:26,834 And then you see Don Sanders. 843 00:38:26,917 --> 00:38:27,875 Right by his mouth, 844 00:38:27,959 --> 00:38:30,125 he has a cut scar on his left cheek. 845 00:38:31,792 --> 00:38:33,792 A very noticeable scar. 846 00:38:33,875 --> 00:38:35,333 It fits Don Sanders. 847 00:38:38,250 --> 00:38:41,000 And I sort of just compare the GBI file 848 00:38:41,083 --> 00:38:42,500 with the FBI file 849 00:38:42,583 --> 00:38:45,792 to find out what else could be a match. 850 00:38:45,875 --> 00:38:49,000 Is there another nexus between those two files? 851 00:38:49,083 --> 00:38:52,500 This is an example of an FBI file 852 00:38:52,583 --> 00:38:53,792 on the investigation. 853 00:38:53,875 --> 00:38:55,750 As you can see, they are heavily redacted, 854 00:38:55,834 --> 00:38:59,083 where names, basic descriptions are taken out. 855 00:38:59,166 --> 00:39:02,500 As compared to these files, 856 00:39:02,583 --> 00:39:04,750 which is from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 857 00:39:04,834 --> 00:39:06,625 There is no redactions. 858 00:39:06,709 --> 00:39:08,750 And you can then put the two together, 859 00:39:08,834 --> 00:39:11,250 you know, synthesize the data that you're looking at. 860 00:39:11,333 --> 00:39:14,041 This is from the FBI file. 861 00:39:14,125 --> 00:39:15,875 In February of 1981, 862 00:39:15,959 --> 00:39:18,041 this white male chases this ten-year-old kid 863 00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:19,542 home from school. 864 00:39:19,625 --> 00:39:21,208 The boy runs under the bed and locks the door. 865 00:39:21,291 --> 00:39:22,709 The guy breaks the door down, 866 00:39:22,792 --> 00:39:24,041 tries to the find the kid, 867 00:39:24,125 --> 00:39:26,000 but the kid is hiding under the bed, so he leaves. 868 00:39:26,083 --> 00:39:29,125 A few hours later, this guy comes back. 869 00:39:29,208 --> 00:39:31,083 The kid and his mother see this white male 870 00:39:31,166 --> 00:39:32,417 staring through the window. 871 00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:34,125 He's got blue eyes, 872 00:39:34,208 --> 00:39:36,917 and he has a scar. 873 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,250 This suspect in question had no facial hair. 874 00:39:40,333 --> 00:39:42,250 On March 1st, the same ten-year-old 875 00:39:42,333 --> 00:39:43,750 goes into the FBI headquarters, 876 00:39:43,834 --> 00:39:45,709 and he's shown a photo lineup, 877 00:39:45,792 --> 00:39:48,166 picks out--he says this is definitely the man 878 00:39:48,250 --> 00:39:49,917 who chased him about a month earlier, 879 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,959 but in this photograph, 880 00:39:52,041 --> 00:39:53,917 he's wearing a full beard. 881 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,917 "When he chased me, he was clean-shaven." 882 00:39:59,375 --> 00:40:01,125 Now, at the same time, 883 00:40:01,208 --> 00:40:03,625 in February of '81 into early March, 884 00:40:03,709 --> 00:40:05,625 the agent in charge of the GBI investigation 885 00:40:05,709 --> 00:40:07,542 of the Sanders notices that he's changed 886 00:40:07,625 --> 00:40:09,417 his appearance completely. 887 00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:11,125 He's cut his hair a little bit, 888 00:40:11,208 --> 00:40:13,709 and he has a well-manicured beard now, 889 00:40:13,792 --> 00:40:15,041 whereas he had been clean-shaven 890 00:40:15,125 --> 00:40:16,917 a few weeks before. 891 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,750 This matches up with a suspect 892 00:40:19,834 --> 00:40:23,500 here in the FBI document, whose name is redacted. 893 00:40:23,583 --> 00:40:25,959 Again, he had a full beard in March, 894 00:40:26,041 --> 00:40:27,792 and so did Don Sanders 895 00:40:27,875 --> 00:40:29,667 in this GBI file. 896 00:40:31,875 --> 00:40:33,625 The dots are connected. 897 00:40:33,709 --> 00:40:36,333 The beard changing at the same time 898 00:40:36,417 --> 00:40:40,291 and then the scar-- it all adds up. 899 00:40:40,375 --> 00:40:42,834 I think Don Sanders has to be the man 900 00:40:42,917 --> 00:40:46,000 whose name is blacked out in the FBI file. 901 00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:50,959 I said, "Oh, my God, they've been trying 902 00:40:51,041 --> 00:40:53,333 "to cover this up for 40 years, 903 00:40:53,417 --> 00:40:54,542 and they slipped up." 904 00:40:56,208 --> 00:40:58,959 - I think the file shows very clearly 905 00:40:59,041 --> 00:41:01,625 that the Sanders were involved. 906 00:41:01,709 --> 00:41:04,000 I'm speculating, but seems like 907 00:41:04,083 --> 00:41:07,542 the Atlanta police investigator Aubrey Melton 908 00:41:07,625 --> 00:41:10,959 was the origin of how all those files 909 00:41:11,041 --> 00:41:12,083 got to me. 910 00:41:12,166 --> 00:41:14,834 He knew they were sweeping it up under the rug, 911 00:41:14,917 --> 00:41:16,792 and he put his career on the line 912 00:41:16,875 --> 00:41:18,959 for the truth. 913 00:41:19,041 --> 00:41:21,250 - Aubrey Melton ought to be commended for that. 914 00:41:22,917 --> 00:41:24,250 You know, that's what Shakespeare said about murder. 915 00:41:24,333 --> 00:41:26,166 Murder always leaves a silent witness. 916 00:41:26,250 --> 00:41:28,709 To me, those documents are a silent witness 917 00:41:28,792 --> 00:41:32,041 showing the Sanders brothers are involved 918 00:41:32,125 --> 00:41:33,709 in killing those kids. 919 00:41:39,417 --> 00:41:42,000 - Look at the whole record, 920 00:41:42,083 --> 00:41:45,417 and it seems like there's several strands 921 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:47,375 of killings. 922 00:41:47,458 --> 00:41:51,250 You have the Sanders and the Ku Klux Klan. 923 00:41:51,333 --> 00:41:53,917 You had pedophilia going on: 924 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,375 Wilcoxen and Tom Terrell, 925 00:41:57,458 --> 00:42:00,542 convicted pedophiles. 926 00:42:00,625 --> 00:42:03,000 You have witnesses to Jamie Brooks 927 00:42:03,083 --> 00:42:05,667 with Clifford Jones. 928 00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:09,625 They didn't follow those leads. 929 00:42:09,709 --> 00:42:11,417 They chose Wayne. 930 00:42:15,125 --> 00:42:16,709 - You know, I always felt 931 00:42:16,792 --> 00:42:18,583 that this is one of those mysteries 932 00:42:18,667 --> 00:42:19,875 that will remain a mystery 933 00:42:19,959 --> 00:42:22,375 because we blew it from the beginning. 934 00:42:22,458 --> 00:42:24,333 There were just all these questions, 935 00:42:24,417 --> 00:42:26,250 and we never got good answers. 936 00:42:29,667 --> 00:42:32,917 - The questions kept coming up. 937 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,458 The case had been so much about fiber evidence, 938 00:42:36,542 --> 00:42:38,792 and just a few years back, 939 00:42:38,875 --> 00:42:42,041 the Justice Department sent me a letter. 940 00:42:42,125 --> 00:42:44,417 They said there was a problem 941 00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:46,125 with the whole process 942 00:42:46,208 --> 00:42:48,375 by the FBI crime lab. 943 00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:54,417 - FBI lab evidence in some of this country's 944 00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:56,500 most high-profile criminal cases 945 00:42:56,583 --> 00:42:57,959 and a whole lot more 946 00:42:58,041 --> 00:42:59,625 could be called into question now, 947 00:42:59,709 --> 00:43:02,583 this months after an FBI whistleblower 948 00:43:02,667 --> 00:43:06,917 accused the FBI crime lab of shoddy and sloppy work. 949 00:43:07,917 --> 00:43:12,583 - The FBI laboratory was in the J. Edgar Hoover Building, 950 00:43:12,667 --> 00:43:14,792 and that building was not built 951 00:43:14,875 --> 00:43:17,834 to hold a laboratory. 952 00:43:17,917 --> 00:43:20,667 Immediately upon walking into the laboratory in 1986, 953 00:43:20,750 --> 00:43:22,625 I saw it was a filthy environment. 954 00:43:22,709 --> 00:43:25,667 Some of the equipment was way outdated. 955 00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:28,875 A lot of it was rusty-- literally rusty. 956 00:43:28,959 --> 00:43:31,125 I was working in a trace analysis unit 957 00:43:31,208 --> 00:43:32,834 where we were looking for 958 00:43:32,917 --> 00:43:35,458 tiny, tiny, tiny amounts of material. 959 00:43:35,542 --> 00:43:38,333 The air system that was in the laboratory-- 960 00:43:38,417 --> 00:43:41,583 the air ducts were lined with fiberglass, 961 00:43:41,667 --> 00:43:43,333 and fiberglass started breaking down. 962 00:43:43,417 --> 00:43:46,208 And when the air system came back on, 963 00:43:46,291 --> 00:43:49,000 all this stuff would rain down on our equipment, 964 00:43:49,083 --> 00:43:51,125 and we referred to it as black rain. 965 00:43:51,208 --> 00:43:52,959 I took Scotch tape, 966 00:43:53,041 --> 00:43:54,375 and I put it around on surfaces 967 00:43:54,458 --> 00:43:55,959 and I put it under the microscope, 968 00:43:56,041 --> 00:43:58,333 and it literally took my breath away. 969 00:43:58,417 --> 00:44:00,166 I was looking at countless-- 970 00:44:00,250 --> 00:44:01,834 and I'm not talking about 100 or 1,000. 971 00:44:01,917 --> 00:44:02,875 I'm talking about-- 972 00:44:02,959 --> 00:44:04,625 if there was such a thing as a zillion, 973 00:44:04,709 --> 00:44:08,542 there were just fibers everywhere, 974 00:44:08,625 --> 00:44:10,333 and it was coming down into areas 975 00:44:10,417 --> 00:44:11,959 that we were doing fiber analysis, 976 00:44:12,041 --> 00:44:13,333 and we had no idea 977 00:44:13,417 --> 00:44:14,834 whether they came from crime scenes 978 00:44:14,917 --> 00:44:17,500 or whether they came from the laboratory itself. 979 00:44:17,583 --> 00:44:20,500 We're gonna put human beings in cages and death chambers 980 00:44:20,583 --> 00:44:23,417 based upon that environment? No, sir. 981 00:44:25,083 --> 00:44:26,208 I hadn't been there long 982 00:44:26,291 --> 00:44:28,333 when I talked to my training agent. 983 00:44:28,417 --> 00:44:29,625 I said, "You know, this is gonna come out 984 00:44:29,709 --> 00:44:33,000 in court sometime," and his response was, 985 00:44:33,083 --> 00:44:34,709 "Before you embarrass the FBI, 986 00:44:34,792 --> 00:44:37,709 "you'll commit perjury in court. 987 00:44:37,792 --> 00:44:39,417 We all do it." 988 00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:41,709 Then I go to his boss, 989 00:44:41,792 --> 00:44:45,542 and I took that go-to-boss up over about... 990 00:44:45,625 --> 00:44:49,542 oh, six years, whatever, 991 00:44:49,625 --> 00:44:51,709 from boss to boss to boss to boss, 992 00:44:51,792 --> 00:44:54,709 and about 1995, the media got hold of it, 993 00:44:54,792 --> 00:44:57,458 and then it got a life of its own. 994 00:44:57,542 --> 00:45:00,375 - For years, the FBI lab has been world-renowned 995 00:45:00,458 --> 00:45:03,208 for coming up with clues that break cases. 996 00:45:03,291 --> 00:45:06,250 Now a new investigation shows that for years, 997 00:45:06,333 --> 00:45:08,583 the lab may have been turning out mistakes. 998 00:45:08,667 --> 00:45:12,083 - Scientifically flawed testimony, 999 00:45:12,166 --> 00:45:14,458 inaccurate testimony, 1000 00:45:14,542 --> 00:45:15,959 testimony beyond 1001 00:45:16,041 --> 00:45:18,250 the laboratory examiner's expertise. 1002 00:45:18,333 --> 00:45:21,667 - It just ballooned. 1003 00:45:23,417 --> 00:45:26,000 The FBI and the U.S. Department of Justice 1004 00:45:26,083 --> 00:45:27,959 reopened thousands of cases. 1005 00:45:30,834 --> 00:45:33,417 In April of 2015, 1006 00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:35,625 the FBI announced 1007 00:45:35,709 --> 00:45:39,208 that 26 of 28 hair examiners 1008 00:45:39,291 --> 00:45:41,417 had provided misleading testimony 1009 00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:43,750 95% percent of the time 1010 00:45:43,834 --> 00:45:45,792 over a 30-year period of time 1011 00:45:45,875 --> 00:45:47,041 in court. 1012 00:45:47,125 --> 00:45:49,750 26 of 28. 1013 00:45:49,834 --> 00:45:51,875 - Whitehurst is now cataloguing the files 1014 00:45:51,959 --> 00:45:53,458 and offering his opinions 1015 00:45:53,542 --> 00:45:55,125 on mistakes made in cases 1016 00:45:55,208 --> 00:45:57,000 ranging from the World Trade Center bombing 1017 00:45:57,083 --> 00:45:58,583 to Oklahoma City 1018 00:45:58,667 --> 00:46:01,625 and hundreds of local murders in between. 1019 00:46:01,709 --> 00:46:04,583 - Wayne Williams' case was worked on 1020 00:46:04,667 --> 00:46:06,000 by the same group of people 1021 00:46:06,083 --> 00:46:08,291 in the same processing areas 1022 00:46:08,375 --> 00:46:10,208 under the same black rain. 1023 00:46:21,375 --> 00:46:24,291 - It wasn't just the fiber evidence. 1024 00:46:24,375 --> 00:46:26,834 Based on victim type, 1025 00:46:26,917 --> 00:46:28,625 where the bodies were found, 1026 00:46:28,709 --> 00:46:31,750 and the eyewitnesses that saw Wayne Williams 1027 00:46:31,834 --> 00:46:33,959 with victims... 1028 00:46:34,041 --> 00:46:35,458 I'm 100% certain 1029 00:46:35,542 --> 00:46:37,333 that Wayne Williams is the killer. 1030 00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:43,583 Keep in mind, the pattern 1031 00:46:43,667 --> 00:46:46,333 of juvenile and young adult homicides 1032 00:46:46,417 --> 00:46:49,875 stopped after the arrest of Wayne Williams. 1033 00:46:49,959 --> 00:46:52,667 - The killings stopped. He can't do this anymore. 1034 00:46:52,750 --> 00:46:54,041 He's done. 1035 00:46:54,125 --> 00:46:56,375 - No, I don't think the killings stopped 1036 00:46:56,458 --> 00:46:58,291 because of Wayne Williams being arrested. 1037 00:46:58,375 --> 00:47:00,500 I think what happened is that 1038 00:47:00,583 --> 00:47:02,625 the most probable suspects went to jail 1039 00:47:02,709 --> 00:47:03,834 around the same time 1040 00:47:03,917 --> 00:47:06,166 as Wayne's arrest. 1041 00:47:06,250 --> 00:47:08,083 When the Sanders brothers were taken into custody, 1042 00:47:08,166 --> 00:47:09,458 they were told point-blank, 1043 00:47:09,542 --> 00:47:11,709 "We have information that you are connected 1044 00:47:11,792 --> 00:47:14,375 to some of the murders." 1045 00:47:14,458 --> 00:47:16,000 Well, of course then, they're on notice, 1046 00:47:16,083 --> 00:47:17,333 so they have to stop. 1047 00:47:17,417 --> 00:47:19,667 Now, at the same time, 1048 00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:22,875 the prime Clifford Jones suspect, 1049 00:47:22,959 --> 00:47:24,166 Tom Terrell, 1050 00:47:24,250 --> 00:47:26,166 David Wilcoxen, 1051 00:47:26,250 --> 00:47:28,542 they were all arrested and thrown in jail, 1052 00:47:28,625 --> 00:47:30,250 and that's why the killings stopped. 1053 00:47:30,333 --> 00:47:33,375 - No, these were outlandish rumors 1054 00:47:33,458 --> 00:47:35,375 with no substance to back them up. 1055 00:47:35,458 --> 00:47:38,750 There was nobody identified as a viable suspect 1056 00:47:38,834 --> 00:47:40,834 other than Wayne Williams. 1057 00:47:42,458 --> 00:47:45,542 The evidence in this case is airtight in my opinion, 1058 00:47:45,625 --> 00:47:48,083 and I think, if somebody looks at it objectively, 1059 00:47:48,166 --> 00:47:49,875 it should prove it to them 1060 00:47:49,959 --> 00:47:52,208 that Wayne Williams is guilty. 1061 00:47:52,291 --> 00:47:54,709 But some of the parents are still not satisfied 1062 00:47:54,792 --> 00:47:56,291 with the investigation. 1063 00:48:02,333 --> 00:48:05,750 - This is one of the favorite pictures. 1064 00:48:05,834 --> 00:48:08,500 We had just left church that Easter. 1065 00:48:11,709 --> 00:48:14,250 Patrick would be married with kids 1066 00:48:14,333 --> 00:48:15,750 and probably went on to the service 1067 00:48:15,834 --> 00:48:17,750 like his rest of his brothers. 1068 00:48:19,917 --> 00:48:22,291 Just broke my heart. 1069 00:48:24,667 --> 00:48:26,917 You know, it's--probably was a time that I said 1070 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,083 that, you know, in my heart, I really do believe 1071 00:48:29,166 --> 00:48:30,583 that Wayne Williams killed Patrick Balt-- 1072 00:48:30,667 --> 00:48:33,667 I remember saying that. 1073 00:48:33,750 --> 00:48:35,250 And then there's a time, you know, 1074 00:48:35,333 --> 00:48:36,875 I don't believe Wayne Williams killed nobody. 1075 00:48:36,959 --> 00:48:38,917 And then it was a time, yeah, maybe he did kill 1076 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,291 Nathaniel Cater and Jimmy Ray Payne, 1077 00:48:42,375 --> 00:48:45,291 because I have been put in a situation 1078 00:48:45,375 --> 00:48:49,792 that, you know, you don't know what to believe, 1079 00:48:49,875 --> 00:48:51,625 so that means that you just believe 1080 00:48:51,709 --> 00:48:53,625 every damn thing. 1081 00:48:53,709 --> 00:48:55,667 You know, so to hell with that. 1082 00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:57,250 I don't know. 1083 00:48:57,333 --> 00:48:59,458 I wasn't there. 1084 00:49:03,208 --> 00:49:06,583 - If you look at Wayne Williams' case 1085 00:49:06,667 --> 00:49:09,625 and say, "I don't know what happened," 1086 00:49:09,709 --> 00:49:12,291 "I don't know" 1087 00:49:12,375 --> 00:49:16,625 connects to "not guilty" in our system of law. 1088 00:49:16,709 --> 00:49:18,500 That does not mean he's an innocent man. 1089 00:49:30,750 --> 00:49:33,041 - Wayne has grown up in jail. 1090 00:49:35,917 --> 00:49:38,667 If Wayne got out of jail, where would he go? 1091 00:49:38,750 --> 00:49:41,834 Um, I don't--his mother's dead. His father's dead. 1092 00:49:41,917 --> 00:49:44,834 I don't know what kind of life he would have. 1093 00:49:44,917 --> 00:49:49,000 But I think he's entitled to find out. 1094 00:49:51,917 --> 00:49:56,500 - His parents were supportive of him to the end. 1095 00:49:56,583 --> 00:50:01,000 I just hate that they had to die 1096 00:50:01,083 --> 00:50:04,583 not knowing what had become of their son. 1097 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,375 - I don't think Atlanta wants him released. 1098 00:50:09,458 --> 00:50:12,834 I don't think they want the case regurgitated, 1099 00:50:12,917 --> 00:50:14,250 brought back up again, 1100 00:50:14,333 --> 00:50:16,125 and I think Wayne is-- 1101 00:50:16,208 --> 00:50:18,041 is gonna be in prison for the rest of his life. 1102 00:50:22,291 --> 00:50:23,291 - Growing up in America, 1103 00:50:23,375 --> 00:50:24,917 I thought it was the land of opportunity. 1104 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,917 I thought that my people, black people, 1105 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,542 had made our strides during the Civil Rights era. 1106 00:50:30,625 --> 00:50:32,542 We had made progress. 1107 00:50:32,625 --> 00:50:34,917 But after years of this nightmare, 1108 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,709 I have found out that 1109 00:50:36,792 --> 00:50:38,875 there is no justice 1110 00:50:38,959 --> 00:50:40,834 in the criminal justice system 1111 00:50:40,917 --> 00:50:42,875 in the United States of America. 1112 00:50:42,959 --> 00:50:46,417 Nobody's concerned about whether you're innocent 1113 00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:48,125 or whether you're guilty. 1114 00:50:52,667 --> 00:50:54,750 - He's truly an evil person 1115 00:50:54,834 --> 00:50:57,417 because he presents himself now as being so innocent 1116 00:50:57,500 --> 00:50:59,250 and he's victimizing the families again. 1117 00:50:59,333 --> 00:51:01,875 He killed their kids. Now he's using them again 1118 00:51:01,959 --> 00:51:03,208 to put himself out there and say, 1119 00:51:03,291 --> 00:51:04,417 "Hey, I'm innocent. I didn't do it. 1120 00:51:04,500 --> 00:51:07,792 It's not me." And, you know, it's just... 1121 00:51:07,875 --> 00:51:10,375 They were throwaways. 1122 00:51:10,458 --> 00:51:12,750 You know, their families didn't want them 1123 00:51:12,834 --> 00:51:14,750 or they're out on their own. 1124 00:51:14,834 --> 00:51:15,959 It was sad, you know. 1125 00:51:16,041 --> 00:51:18,875 They're just kids, but they didn't have a chance, 1126 00:51:18,959 --> 00:51:20,792 most of them, and they fell prey 1127 00:51:20,875 --> 00:51:24,083 to this lunatic. 1128 00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:31,125 - I don't want this investigation 1129 00:51:31,208 --> 00:51:32,458 to become 1130 00:51:32,542 --> 00:51:34,875 a "Free Wayne Williams" campaign. 1131 00:51:34,959 --> 00:51:36,625 To the extent that there's evidence 1132 00:51:36,709 --> 00:51:40,083 that shows that it was not him, 1133 00:51:40,166 --> 00:51:43,667 I think that justice will take its course. 1134 00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:47,250 But I really want this to be about the children 1135 00:51:47,333 --> 00:51:51,667 and the unanswered questions for many of the families. 1136 00:51:54,125 --> 00:51:56,667 - I'm hopeful we find some evidence. 1137 00:51:56,750 --> 00:51:58,500 You know, it's a long shot. 1138 00:51:58,583 --> 00:52:00,500 This is really about being able 1139 00:52:00,583 --> 00:52:03,458 to look at the families, the moms, the dads, 1140 00:52:03,542 --> 00:52:06,625 and say, "We have done everything possible." 1141 00:52:06,709 --> 00:52:09,667 And so we are just very methodically 1142 00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:11,834 pulling in the boxes of evidence, 1143 00:52:11,917 --> 00:52:14,375 looking at the cases chronologically. 1144 00:52:14,458 --> 00:52:17,208 It's gonna take time. 1145 00:52:17,291 --> 00:52:19,959 - 2020, it'll be 40 years. 1146 00:52:20,041 --> 00:52:23,458 They should've did that 40 years ago, 1147 00:52:23,542 --> 00:52:26,000 not 40 years... 1148 00:52:26,083 --> 00:52:28,625 They should've been did it. 1149 00:52:28,709 --> 00:52:30,500 They should've been done something. 1150 00:52:30,583 --> 00:52:33,667 - Come on. 29 to 30 kids, 1151 00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:35,375 and you mean to tell me 1152 00:52:35,458 --> 00:52:37,834 nobody had an answer for 30 kids? 1153 00:52:40,959 --> 00:52:42,375 We're not worth it, 1154 00:52:42,458 --> 00:52:45,333 is what you're telling me. 1155 00:52:45,417 --> 00:52:47,667 I want my brother, and I want all the other children, 1156 00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:49,125 to be worth something 1157 00:52:49,208 --> 00:52:51,166 so they can sleep. 1158 00:52:54,125 --> 00:52:55,208 - It's 40 years ago. 1159 00:52:55,291 --> 00:52:57,208 How many people have handled this over the years? 1160 00:52:57,291 --> 00:52:59,417 I don't think they're gonna find anything. 1161 00:53:02,250 --> 00:53:04,041 - You think that this is really trying 1162 00:53:04,125 --> 00:53:05,417 to get to the bottom of all this? 1163 00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:07,250 - N... 1164 00:53:09,792 --> 00:53:12,291 No. 1165 00:53:14,625 --> 00:53:19,083 This reinvestigation is about cleaning up, 1166 00:53:19,166 --> 00:53:21,667 just trying to clean up 1167 00:53:21,750 --> 00:53:24,417 the legacy of Atlanta. 1168 00:53:27,792 --> 00:53:29,291 - The man considered the main suspect 1169 00:53:29,375 --> 00:53:30,709 in the Atlanta child murders 1170 00:53:30,792 --> 00:53:31,875 will stay in prison. 1171 00:53:31,959 --> 00:53:34,083 The state denied Wayne Williams' appeal 1172 00:53:34,166 --> 00:53:35,250 for parole. 1173 00:53:35,333 --> 00:53:39,000 - His next opportunity will be in 2027. 1174 00:53:40,667 --> 00:53:43,417 - Atlanta's a city of images. 1175 00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:45,458 It's a PR place. 1176 00:53:45,542 --> 00:53:47,750 It's what looks good and what we can project 1177 00:53:47,834 --> 00:53:50,250 to the world-- "World's busiest airport." 1178 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,917 - When this took place, 1179 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,417 Atlanta was on the rise. 1180 00:53:57,500 --> 00:54:02,083 They felt like Atlanta was being attacked 1181 00:54:02,166 --> 00:54:04,625 by us defending Wayne Williams. 1182 00:54:06,959 --> 00:54:09,250 Everything we brought out, 1183 00:54:09,333 --> 00:54:11,458 people thought about it 1184 00:54:11,542 --> 00:54:13,792 as a reflection on Atlanta. 1185 00:54:23,709 --> 00:54:26,625 - It's a very different Atlanta now 1186 00:54:26,709 --> 00:54:28,000 because there was a plan 1187 00:54:28,083 --> 00:54:31,291 of what Atlanta was gonna be. 1188 00:54:37,208 --> 00:54:39,750 - It's kind of crass. 1189 00:54:39,834 --> 00:54:43,458 We want to have the clout and the class, 1190 00:54:43,542 --> 00:54:45,291 but none of the public housing projects 1191 00:54:45,375 --> 00:54:46,834 remain at all. 1192 00:54:48,125 --> 00:54:50,959 They've all been torn down, 1193 00:54:51,041 --> 00:54:52,959 black folks pushed out. 1194 00:54:54,834 --> 00:54:57,000 And few, if any, of the people who lived there 1195 00:54:57,083 --> 00:54:58,875 found homes there again. 1196 00:55:18,208 --> 00:55:21,333 - After Clifford passed away, 1197 00:55:21,417 --> 00:55:22,792 we moved across town, 1198 00:55:22,875 --> 00:55:25,041 and then we moved back to Chattanooga. 1199 00:55:26,250 --> 00:55:28,542 I would never move to Atlanta again. 1200 00:55:31,250 --> 00:55:33,500 I'm mad at Atlanta. 1201 00:55:33,583 --> 00:55:37,166 I'm pissed off at Atlanta, for real. 1202 00:55:37,250 --> 00:55:39,208 I just feel like they did our family wrong. 1203 00:55:41,583 --> 00:55:44,542 When Clifford passed away, 1204 00:55:44,625 --> 00:55:46,417 I almost tried to, like, block it out 1205 00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:48,083 like it was a bad dream. 1206 00:55:50,834 --> 00:55:53,750 I guess I went into a deep depression. 1207 00:55:57,125 --> 00:55:59,917 Clifford was buried at the National Cemetery 1208 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,041 in Chattanooga, Tennessee. 1209 00:56:03,125 --> 00:56:04,417 I've never been back over there 1210 00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:06,500 since we buried him. 1211 00:56:07,458 --> 00:56:09,583 I got past it, and... 1212 00:56:19,166 --> 00:56:21,375 Just holding onto this, it was 1213 00:56:21,458 --> 00:56:23,625 mentally tearing me down. 1214 00:56:27,625 --> 00:56:29,750 I finally felt like it was time 1215 00:56:29,834 --> 00:56:31,709 to come and see him. 1216 00:56:48,959 --> 00:56:51,750 I just want the world to know we love Clifford. 1217 00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:09,667 - Me, personally, myself, 1218 00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:14,083 nothing would give me a peace of mind or closure. 1219 00:57:14,166 --> 00:57:17,917 Just want to know who and why. 1220 00:57:26,875 --> 00:57:29,750 - I think that the notion of closure 1221 00:57:29,834 --> 00:57:33,917 is something that people who are not directly involved 1222 00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,875 make up. 1223 00:57:37,583 --> 00:57:39,500 I don't know what constitutes closure 1224 00:57:39,583 --> 00:57:41,250 for a murdered child. 1225 00:57:49,125 --> 00:57:51,291 - People always talking about closure 1226 00:57:51,375 --> 00:57:53,875 and... mm-mm. 1227 00:57:53,959 --> 00:57:58,041 I can't get with this thing about closure. 1228 00:57:58,125 --> 00:58:00,959 I don't think I'll ever have peace about that, 1229 00:58:01,041 --> 00:58:02,709 about my son. 1230 00:58:08,917 --> 00:58:11,875 - It's been an emotional kind of afternoon 1231 00:58:11,959 --> 00:58:13,834 because a lot of families are seeing each other 1232 00:58:13,917 --> 00:58:17,875 for the first time in almost 40 years. 1233 00:58:23,417 --> 00:58:25,917 - Good afternoon. - Good afternoon. 1234 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,542 - My name is Catherine Leach Bell. 1235 00:58:28,625 --> 00:58:30,625 I'm the mother of Curtis Walker. 1236 00:58:31,792 --> 00:58:34,959 Curtis was very important. 1237 00:58:35,041 --> 00:58:39,041 He was a black America child. 1238 00:58:39,125 --> 00:58:41,875 And someone took him from me. 1239 00:58:41,959 --> 00:58:45,667 Now, that's a pain that no one will ever forget. 1240 00:58:47,792 --> 00:58:49,375 'Cause seemed like nobody cared 1241 00:58:49,458 --> 00:58:52,417 nothing about what I was going through, not nobody. 1242 00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,542 But I didn't give up. 1243 00:58:56,625 --> 00:58:58,917 I kept going. 1244 00:59:01,500 --> 00:59:03,083 - It hurts. 1245 00:59:03,166 --> 00:59:05,166 You're losing a child and being killed like that, 1246 00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:07,709 and you don't know why he being killed like that. 1247 00:59:07,792 --> 00:59:08,959 - It hurts. 1248 00:59:09,041 --> 00:59:10,417 - You don't know why would anybody 1249 00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:12,041 do something to a child like that. 1250 00:59:12,125 --> 00:59:14,959 That's a sick maniac. - Come on now, come on. 1251 00:59:15,041 --> 00:59:16,375 - That's right. - We went through it 1252 00:59:16,458 --> 00:59:18,917 40 long years, but guess what. 1253 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,542 We can go through it 40 more long years. 1254 00:59:20,625 --> 00:59:21,750 - That's right. 1255 00:59:21,834 --> 00:59:23,083 - Until the end. 1256 00:59:23,166 --> 00:59:24,667 - Till the end. - Till the end. 1257 00:59:24,750 --> 00:59:26,041 Until he be caught. 1258 00:59:26,125 --> 00:59:27,583 - Say it! 1259 00:59:27,667 --> 00:59:28,583 - We can't give up. 1260 00:59:28,667 --> 00:59:30,959 When we die, we can't do nothing about it. 1261 00:59:31,041 --> 00:59:33,542 But long as breath is in our body, 1262 00:59:33,625 --> 00:59:36,083 we got our rights to find out who did this. 92255

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