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-[man] Well, uh,
before we turn to our next number,
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we've got a little bit
of tattling to do, so to speak.
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00:00:52,094 --> 00:00:55,806
Both George Meyer and,
uh, his piano player here, Billy Tipton...
4
00:00:55,889 --> 00:00:58,892
these two boys have a couple of
specialty acts, which are really terrific,
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00:00:58,976 --> 00:01:02,646
and I think we might get them to, uh,
give us an idea of that tonight.
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So first of all, we're going to
sneak right over here beside Billy Tipton,
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and, uh-- Billy, what, uh,
what business was it that you did?
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-[Billy] Well, it was
more or less monkey business, you know--
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-[man] Monkey business?
10
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-[Billy] Yeah, monkey biz,
kinda silly business here.
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-[man] Really?
12
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-[Billy] Yeah, it was really silly.
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-[man] Well look, Silly Billy,
go on and do it, will ya?
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-[Billy] [chuckles] Okay!
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#jazz piano#
16
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Something in the little vein that...
17
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suggests "Don't Be That Way."
18
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AN
19
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-[Chase] I would love to know
any reactions to receiving a call
20
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about a project about Billy Tipton.
21
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-[man] I guess, I'm a musician
and I didn't know who he was
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and I was very surprised at myself.
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Also, a little bit guilty.
24
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I was like,
"This is like a trans legend!
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Like, how-- how have I
not done my homework?"
26
00:02:01,204 --> 00:02:04,291
-[man] I know about Billy Tipton
because I listen to Bikini Kill
27
00:02:04,374 --> 00:02:07,544
and they shout out Billy Tipton
in a long list of important people
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00:02:07,628 --> 00:02:09,921
in, like, queer history in a song.
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-[man] He is kind of erased from history
when he was this amazing musician.
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It's like, I listened to his
whole album on the way here
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and I was almost in tears.
32
00:02:20,641 --> 00:02:23,852
[indistinct chatter]
33
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-[man] Here we go!
34
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-[whispering inaudibly]
35
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-[man] Is there any-- I couldn't
find any footage of him.
36
00:02:44,623 --> 00:02:45,707
-[man] There's pictures!
37
00:02:45,791 --> 00:02:47,125
-[man] There's pictures
but no-- no footage.
38
00:02:47,209 --> 00:02:50,962
-[man] 'Cause, you know,
he probably was not on testosterone.
39
00:02:51,046 --> 00:02:53,006
-[man]
Testosterone wasn't-- wasn't around.
40
00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:54,883
-[man] Back then?
-[man] I don't know.
41
00:03:08,897 --> 00:03:11,400
-I'm auditioning for the role of Billy.
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00:03:11,483 --> 00:03:13,110
-This is my audition for Billy Tipton.
43
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-Auditioning for Billy.
44
00:03:14,528 --> 00:03:15,654
-This is Billy.
45
00:03:15,737 --> 00:03:18,031
-And I'm here for the role of Billy.
46
00:03:18,532 --> 00:03:22,661
How would I summarize
the story of Billy Tipton?
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00:03:23,495 --> 00:03:27,916
He was a trans
masculine jazz musician.
48
00:03:28,291 --> 00:03:29,835
Pretty simple.
49
00:03:30,252 --> 00:03:32,045
-[Mike] The first phrase that
always comes to my mind is
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"the gentleman's gentleman."
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You know, just, uh...
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the consummate professional
and the gentleman's gentleman.
53
00:03:39,970 --> 00:03:43,515
-The first time that I learned about Billy Tipton
54
00:03:43,598 --> 00:03:48,019
was probably 2003 or 2004.
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Um...
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00:03:49,688 --> 00:03:51,648
just before I started my medical transition,
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00:03:51,732 --> 00:03:55,235
I was doing a ton of research
at that-- at that point.
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And so I wanted to
learn about, uh,
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00:03:57,904 --> 00:04:00,073
my ancestors that--
essentially that came before me.
60
00:04:00,157 --> 00:04:02,617
-In a way, Billy has been with me,
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00:04:02,701 --> 00:04:04,786
um, in sort of the background
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00:04:04,870 --> 00:04:06,329
before my transition.
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00:04:06,413 --> 00:04:08,874
And thinking about him again
from the place of being a trans man
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00:04:08,957 --> 00:04:11,501
was very interesting for me,
because I think I had held him,
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00:04:11,585 --> 00:04:14,463
um, you know, in-- in just
a sort of general context
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00:04:14,546 --> 00:04:16,548
of queerness prior to that.
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00:04:17,382 --> 00:04:19,217
-[Stephan] Billy Tipton.
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There are many stories for Billy Tipton.
I will give you one.
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00:04:21,887 --> 00:04:25,432
Billy Tipton, uh, was born--
let's say was born--
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00:04:25,515 --> 00:04:27,225
Was assigned female at birth.
71
00:04:27,309 --> 00:04:30,020
Oklahoma City, grew up there.
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00:04:30,312 --> 00:04:31,688
Was white.
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00:04:31,772 --> 00:04:32,981
Loved jazz.
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00:04:33,064 --> 00:04:37,652
Was given piano lessons, uh,
as a small person from a woman,
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00:04:37,736 --> 00:04:40,489
knew the Tea gardens,
who were sort of a jazz family--
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00:04:40,572 --> 00:04:41,823
A white jazz family.
77
00:04:41,907 --> 00:04:44,242
-Oklahoma was this musical crossroads.
78
00:04:44,326 --> 00:04:48,121
It's like from the
New Orleans jazz world to Chicago,
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00:04:48,205 --> 00:04:51,708
um, there were a lot of people
who went through Oklahoma
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00:04:51,792 --> 00:04:54,836
in the 19-teens and '20s and '30s.
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00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,088
-[Stephan] The story goes
that at this point in time,
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Billy Tipton starts wearing men's clothing
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because everybody's wearing men's clothing,
84
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,678
and so just to sort of fit in with the band,
85
00:05:03,762 --> 00:05:04,888
that's the only reason.
86
00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:07,057
This is how-- this is
how the story is written.
87
00:05:07,140 --> 00:05:10,685
Then, something happens
where Billy Tipton decides to
88
00:05:10,769 --> 00:05:15,106
basically make a break and then
present himself as-- as male full-time.
89
00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:17,901
-I'm gonna walk in a little, if that's okay.
90
00:05:17,984 --> 00:05:19,319
-[woman] Yeah, yeah,
use the space however you want.
91
00:05:19,402 --> 00:05:21,154
If you want a chair, just let us know.
92
00:05:21,238 --> 00:05:22,906
We can change things up.
93
00:05:22,989 --> 00:05:23,949
Whenever you're ready.
94
00:05:24,032 --> 00:05:25,992
-Okay, great, thanks.
95
00:05:26,076 --> 00:05:27,661
[clears throat]
96
00:05:28,578 --> 00:05:30,580
[sighs]
97
00:05:30,831 --> 00:05:34,125
Hey, I saw your ad
in The Oklahoma Herald.
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I can play.
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00:05:36,044 --> 00:05:37,504
-[woman] You can play what?
100
00:05:37,587 --> 00:05:39,798
-Saxophone, piano...
101
00:05:39,881 --> 00:05:42,300
- I saw your ad in The Oklahoma Herald.
102
00:05:42,384 --> 00:05:43,927
I can play!
103
00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:45,095
-[woman] You can play what?
104
00:05:45,178 --> 00:05:47,013
-Saxophone, piano...
105
00:05:47,097 --> 00:05:48,765
-[woman] All right,
what band are you with?
106
00:05:48,849 --> 00:05:50,767
-I'm between bands right now, but...
107
00:05:50,851 --> 00:05:52,143
I'm looking to expand.
108
00:05:52,227 --> 00:05:53,728
And I could read music!
109
00:05:54,479 --> 00:05:56,815
-[woman] Have you even seen
the inside of a club?
110
00:05:56,898 --> 00:06:00,610
-Yeah, my mom works in one and
since I'm the only man around here,
111
00:06:00,694 --> 00:06:02,737
I'm helping--
I'm helping her out.
112
00:06:02,821 --> 00:06:06,157
-My ma works in one,
so since |I'm the only man around,
113
00:06:06,241 --> 00:06:07,284
I'm helping out.
114
00:06:07,367 --> 00:06:08,660
-This is the '40s, it's the war,
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00:06:08,743 --> 00:06:10,787
so there are a number of
all-women big bands that are happening.
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00:06:10,871 --> 00:06:14,040
If Billy Tipton had wanted
to be a woman in a big band,
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00:06:14,124 --> 00:06:17,752
this is the time to do it
because it is possible.
118
00:06:18,420 --> 00:06:20,171
But Billy Tipton does not do that.
119
00:06:20,255 --> 00:06:24,384
Billy Tipton becomes what
we would call a "regional jazz musician,"
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00:06:24,467 --> 00:06:29,139
tours around in big bands
and then in smaller combos.
121
00:06:29,222 --> 00:06:30,807
He's doing well for himself.
122
00:06:30,891 --> 00:06:33,184
He's a successful
regional jazz musician.
123
00:06:33,268 --> 00:06:36,313
He was part of a particular
musical ecosystem,
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wherein we need musicians
who played at Elks Lodges,
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00:06:39,274 --> 00:06:41,985
who played at Air Force bases,
and who played at nightclubs
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00:06:42,068 --> 00:06:44,946
for people who, after work on
a Saturday night or a Friday night,
127
00:06:45,030 --> 00:06:46,239
want to go out dancing.
128
00:06:46,323 --> 00:06:48,575
And he was one of those
many bands that did that.
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00:06:48,658 --> 00:06:50,410
And he did that quite well.
130
00:06:50,952 --> 00:06:54,247
-[man] Now, number 16 on our
program tonight, with Billy on a vocal,
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it's "The Best Things in Life are Free."
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#"The Best Things in Life are Free"
by The Billy Tipton Trio#
133
00:07:03,548 --> 00:07:08,053
-[Billy]
#The moon belongs to everyone#
134
00:07:08,887 --> 00:07:11,806
#The best things in life are free...I
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00:07:11,890 --> 00:07:15,268
-[Mike] When we would talk about
the old days and where he had been
136
00:07:15,352 --> 00:07:17,270
and how it's changed over the years,
137
00:07:17,354 --> 00:07:20,857
you know, going into a town,
arriving early in the morning,
138
00:07:20,941 --> 00:07:25,070
setting up in the radio station,
playing your music to promote the show
139
00:07:25,153 --> 00:07:27,155
that you were gonna do that night, you know,
140
00:07:27,238 --> 00:07:31,409
trying to get as many people to come out
as possible, uh, play the show,
141
00:07:31,493 --> 00:07:33,453
go to the after-hours club,
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00:07:33,536 --> 00:07:39,292
play the real music with all of the other musicians
that were in town doing the same thing,
143
00:07:39,376 --> 00:07:43,088
and then move on along to another town.
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00:07:43,505 --> 00:07:45,048
-[woman] I liked the Billy attitude.
145
00:07:45,131 --> 00:07:46,633
-[Amos] Yeah.
-[woman] That was really cool!
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00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:48,635
[laughs]
147
00:07:48,718 --> 00:07:51,221
-It's hard to get a gig
as a-- I'm a musician,
148
00:07:51,304 --> 00:07:53,223
so I'm-- I'm--
I always go into it like
149
00:07:53,306 --> 00:07:54,641
"Ah, I need this gig!"
150
00:07:54,724 --> 00:07:56,309
You know? Like... [laughs]
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00:07:56,393 --> 00:07:59,646
So, I relate--
I relate to it. [laughs]
152
00:07:59,729 --> 00:08:01,898
-When I was younger, I liked
to perform for, like, family and stuff,
153
00:08:01,982 --> 00:08:03,733
but, uh-- like as a kid.
154
00:08:03,817 --> 00:08:05,276
And then as I started my transition,
155
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,278
I kinda didn't really see a path as an--
156
00:08:07,362 --> 00:08:11,157
For an actor, unfortunately, at the time,
I really didn't see anyone in TV and film,
157
00:08:11,241 --> 00:08:13,910
um, that was trans and acting,
so I didn't really think |--
158
00:08:13,994 --> 00:08:16,162
it would be a possibility
or something I could pursue.
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00:08:20,166 --> 00:08:21,292
-[woman] Welcome!
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00:08:21,376 --> 00:08:22,961
-Hello!
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00:08:23,211 --> 00:08:24,671
-[man] How's it going?
-Pretty good.
162
00:08:24,754 --> 00:08:27,298
-[woman] Marquise, if you can...
163
00:08:27,382 --> 00:08:31,511
tap into your 18-year-old self
who's walking into his first job ever,
164
00:08:31,594 --> 00:08:34,347
kind of tap into some of that nervousness.
165
00:08:35,557 --> 00:08:37,350
-[sighs]
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00:08:38,351 --> 00:08:39,519
Okay.
167
00:08:39,602 --> 00:08:42,147
Yeah, this would be very er--
early on for Billy,
168
00:08:42,230 --> 00:08:43,773
since he only...
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has been walking in his truth since 19,
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00:08:46,401 --> 00:08:47,902
so this would be very early on.
171
00:08:47,986 --> 00:08:50,697
Maybe he probably just got his
first couple of checks
172
00:08:50,780 --> 00:08:53,700
from the other job that he was doing
so he could buy male clothes
173
00:08:53,783 --> 00:08:55,160
so he could walk into this audition.
174
00:08:55,243 --> 00:08:56,327
Okay.
175
00:08:56,411 --> 00:08:57,954
Hold on a second.
176
00:09:05,253 --> 00:09:08,381
Well, I saw you ad
in The, uh, Oklahoma Herald.
177
00:09:08,465 --> 00:09:10,341
I can play.
178
00:09:10,425 --> 00:09:12,135
-[man] You can play what?
179
00:09:12,218 --> 00:09:14,929
-[Marquise] Saxophone, piano...
180
00:09:15,013 --> 00:09:16,723
-[man] What band are you with?
181
00:09:16,806 --> 00:09:19,392
-Uh, I'm-- I'm in between bands.
182
00:09:19,476 --> 00:09:21,186
I'm looking to expand.
183
00:09:21,269 --> 00:09:23,354
And I read music, too!
184
00:09:23,438 --> 00:09:26,149
-[man] Have you even seen
the inside of a club?
185
00:09:26,232 --> 00:09:28,359
-Well, my ma works at one.
186
00:09:28,443 --> 00:09:30,570
Since I'm the only man around,
I'm helping her out.
187
00:09:30,653 --> 00:09:32,822
-[man] You're a kid.
188
00:09:33,823 --> 00:09:35,950
-Well, you got a Conway.
189
00:09:36,034 --> 00:09:39,454
Well, if I can't make her sing,
the show's free.
190
00:09:40,747 --> 00:09:44,417
-[Stephan] He makes two albums
as an independent musician.
191
00:09:44,501 --> 00:09:46,086
He's got more opportunities.
192
00:09:46,169 --> 00:09:50,090
He opens for some bigger names
like Billy Eckstine.
193
00:09:51,424 --> 00:09:58,264
-In 1958, Billy was offered a job -
a long-term playing gig -- with Liberace.
194
00:09:58,348 --> 00:10:00,058
-Which could be his ticket to the big-time.
195
00:10:00,141 --> 00:10:03,311
But he says, "No," and he goes
to Spokane -- it's very dramatic --
196
00:10:03,394 --> 00:10:05,063
he gives it all up, his chance to, like,
197
00:10:05,146 --> 00:10:09,818
have this four-record deal and to be
a-- a house band in Reno, his one shot at fame.
198
00:10:09,901 --> 00:10:11,528
But he gives it up.
But why?
199
00:10:11,611 --> 00:10:15,115
And of course, the idea being
that he might be afraid of-- of being found out.
200
00:10:15,198 --> 00:10:17,325
-That's very much a turning point in Billy's life
201
00:10:17,408 --> 00:10:23,289
where he chose to start a family with Kitty
instead of uprooting again
202
00:10:23,373 --> 00:10:26,668
for perhaps one of the largest
performances of his career.
203
00:10:26,751 --> 00:10:29,629
-[Stephan] He is with Kitty Kelly,
who had been a stripper,
204
00:10:29,712 --> 00:10:30,880
and they adopt three boys.
205
00:10:30,964 --> 00:10:32,298
It's this beautiful life.
206
00:10:32,382 --> 00:10:34,092
And Billy becomes a talent agent.
207
00:10:34,175 --> 00:10:36,052
He still plays here and then.
208
00:10:36,136 --> 00:10:39,931
And then, he dies
of an untreated ulcer in 1989.
209
00:10:40,014 --> 00:10:43,268
-He died in his trailer with Billy Jr.
210
00:10:43,351 --> 00:10:46,396
Um, I believe Billy was
holding him in his arms.
211
00:10:46,479 --> 00:10:50,775
Or, you know, he was with--
Billy Jr. was with Billy Sr.
212
00:10:50,859 --> 00:10:52,360
In the final moments.
213
00:10:52,443 --> 00:10:58,199
And after he passed away,
the EMT came and that was the big reveal,
214
00:10:58,283 --> 00:11:00,285
apparently -- this is
the narrative that we're fed --
215
00:11:00,368 --> 00:11:05,498
that the big reveal is that the EMTs come
and they rip Billy's shirt open
216
00:11:05,582 --> 00:11:09,294
and they're like, "Son, your--
your dad's a woman!"
217
00:11:09,377 --> 00:11:11,462
Or something around those terms.
218
00:11:11,546 --> 00:11:15,216
And that that's Billy Jr.'s
first moment of being like,
219
00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:16,926
"What!?"
You know.
220
00:11:17,010 --> 00:11:20,013
And then the story is released.
221
00:11:20,096 --> 00:11:21,097
And no one knows.
222
00:11:21,181 --> 00:11:22,974
Was it the EMT
who released the story to the media?
223
00:11:23,057 --> 00:11:24,434
Was it the-- the coroner?
224
00:11:24,517 --> 00:11:26,269
There's a big fight about that.
225
00:11:26,352 --> 00:11:29,772
Um, but really, at the moment
that Billy passed away
226
00:11:29,856 --> 00:11:32,483
and the moment the EMTs
ripped his shirt open to try and,
227
00:11:32,567 --> 00:11:35,486
you know, keep him alive,
was the moment that Billy's story,
228
00:11:35,570 --> 00:11:39,282
you know, became something
completely different.
229
00:11:39,365 --> 00:11:43,703
-So I remember when
the Tipton story hit in '89.
230
00:11:43,786 --> 00:11:45,205
Um...
231
00:11:45,288 --> 00:11:47,290
It didn't make a huge
impression on me at the time.
232
00:11:47,373 --> 00:11:51,044
I mean, I-- I just thought of it as,
like, "here we go again."
233
00:11:51,127 --> 00:11:54,672
Like, some other person
who's managed to live their life and,
234
00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:57,467
uh, now they're being
outed and, you know,
235
00:11:57,550 --> 00:12:01,387
there's gonna be a, you know,
a media circus about it.
236
00:12:01,471 --> 00:12:03,681
And then people
will move on to the next thing.
237
00:12:03,765 --> 00:12:05,934
- I was still in high school.
238
00:12:06,017 --> 00:12:09,103
And I remember it happened
and it was all over the news.
239
00:12:09,187 --> 00:12:11,898
And I just
remember thinking, "Huh!"
240
00:12:11,981 --> 00:12:14,484
Right? Like, it was
a thing that you notice.
241
00:12:14,567 --> 00:12:17,904
But I didn't quite know
what to think about it.
242
00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:20,156
There was something there
that I was not,
243
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,243
at that point in time, ready to
think about [laughs] personally.
244
00:12:23,326 --> 00:12:24,994
-"A woman trying to be a man.
245
00:12:25,078 --> 00:12:33,127
"Well! Of course he died.
Of course [gibberish]."
246
00:12:33,211 --> 00:12:37,548
That was pretty much
the coverage I read about was...
247
00:12:37,632 --> 00:12:39,467
he was...
248
00:12:40,301 --> 00:12:42,428
he was a woman.
249
00:12:42,804 --> 00:12:45,390
And he was trying to fool everybody.
250
00:12:45,473 --> 00:12:46,724
And he was successful.
251
00:12:46,808 --> 00:12:49,644
But he was finally found out.
252
00:12:50,019 --> 00:12:54,148
That was the story in--
in the media in those days.
253
00:12:54,232 --> 00:13:00,238
Why? Because there was
no such thing as a trans man.
254
00:13:00,321 --> 00:13:04,492
There was no word for him
because as soon as you said "transsexual,"
255
00:13:04,575 --> 00:13:07,996
that's impossible
because that's a man who becomes --
256
00:13:08,079 --> 00:13:10,832
in their words -- "a woman."
257
00:13:11,958 --> 00:13:14,585
-It's such a common story, actually,
258
00:13:14,669 --> 00:13:16,796
to sensationalize the-- you know,
259
00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:18,631
the reveal, you know, of [gasps]!
260
00:13:18,715 --> 00:13:21,759
You know, this person had those genitals
but they used those pronouns...shock!
261
00:13:21,843 --> 00:13:23,219
You know, horror!
262
00:13:23,303 --> 00:13:25,555
In the same newspapers, you know,
263
00:13:25,638 --> 00:13:28,891
over the course of many decades,
in the middle of the 20th century,
264
00:13:28,975 --> 00:13:30,977
you would see the same story.
265
00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:32,812
It's like it was
the same narrative.
266
00:13:32,895 --> 00:13:35,023
It was like same turns of phrases.
267
00:13:35,106 --> 00:13:37,859
It's like-- it's like
that moment in 'Casablanca,'
268
00:13:37,942 --> 00:13:40,611
you know, where, you know,
the police officer is just like,
269
00:13:40,695 --> 00:13:41,821
"I am shocked!
270
00:13:41,904 --> 00:13:45,616
Shocked to find," you know,
"gambling is going on in this establishment!"
271
00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:47,952
You knew gambling was
going on in this establishment.
272
00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:50,997
It's like people know
that trans people exist.
273
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,583
You know, it's like--
it's like we're not unknown.
274
00:13:53,666 --> 00:13:56,419
It's like you-- you look at, you know,
275
00:13:56,502 --> 00:14:00,256
any small to medium-size town
and there's gonna be some trans person there
276
00:14:00,340 --> 00:14:03,092
and somebody, like, knows that they're trans.
It's like, it's a thing.
277
00:14:03,176 --> 00:14:08,097
And yet the media presents it
as this thing that nobody
278
00:14:08,181 --> 00:14:10,767
has ever heard of, every single time.
279
00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:15,855
-And whenever your story doesn't match
the kind of myths that we want,
280
00:14:15,938 --> 00:14:18,232
either we just re--
re-tell your story in a way
281
00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:21,110
that does fit the myths
or we just don't tell your story.
282
00:14:21,194 --> 00:14:22,445
-[AJ] Billy Tipton.
283
00:14:22,528 --> 00:14:24,238
The name might not ring a bell.
284
00:14:24,322 --> 00:14:27,283
But Billy's story is one of
the most intriguing you'll ever hear.
285
00:14:27,367 --> 00:14:31,245
In the 1940s and '50s, Billy Tipton
was a well-established jazz musician
286
00:14:31,329 --> 00:14:33,456
who played the American nightclub circuit.
287
00:14:33,539 --> 00:14:35,958
For a time, Billy Tipton
even had a record deal,
288
00:14:36,042 --> 00:14:39,087
cutting two albums with his group,
The Billy Tipton Trio.
289
00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:43,049
But it isn't Billy's musical talent
that makes this story unique.
290
00:14:43,132 --> 00:14:45,343
Instead, it's the almost inconceivable secret
291
00:14:45,426 --> 00:14:48,429
Billy kept for more than 50 years
that still has people
292
00:14:48,513 --> 00:14:50,098
shaking their heads in disbelief,
293
00:14:50,181 --> 00:14:52,725
Billy's ex-wives
and children among them.
294
00:14:52,809 --> 00:14:54,519
-[man] A jazzy gender-bender who,
295
00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:58,689
for nearly 60 years,
turned the entire world into a stage
296
00:14:58,773 --> 00:15:04,654
while composing for herself
a brand new life as "Mr. Billy Tipton."
297
00:15:04,737 --> 00:15:07,490
-He was the perfect husband...
298
00:15:07,573 --> 00:15:09,492
every woman dreams of.
299
00:15:09,575 --> 00:15:11,702
-In all those years,
you don't-- you don't have sex,
300
00:15:11,786 --> 00:15:15,164
but at some point, in the shower,
getting up in the morning--
301
00:15:15,248 --> 00:15:16,082
-[Kitty] No, no.
302
00:15:16,165 --> 00:15:17,708
-[Oprah] In the kitchen, somewhere--
303
00:15:17,792 --> 00:15:18,835
-No.
304
00:15:18,918 --> 00:15:21,754
-You would see that person,
some part of him, naked!
305
00:15:21,838 --> 00:15:23,089
-[Kitty] No.
306
00:15:23,172 --> 00:15:27,135
-Any indication or any faking of the shape
of a penis on the part of your--
307
00:15:27,218 --> 00:15:28,678
-All right, except...
308
00:15:28,761 --> 00:15:30,304
there was a binder...
309
00:15:30,388 --> 00:15:32,765
like a rib binder,
okay, for broken ribs--
310
00:15:32,849 --> 00:15:35,768
-Oh, that in fact,
she wore to bind breasts.
311
00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:37,562
-[Kitty] Right.
-What about on the bottom?
312
00:15:37,645 --> 00:15:40,523
That's interesting,
you still refer to she as a "he."
313
00:15:40,606 --> 00:15:42,900
When we come back,
we're gonna find out more about this.
314
00:15:42,984 --> 00:15:44,068
-Billy is a "he!"
315
00:15:44,777 --> 00:15:47,697
-Yeah, I want to ask Billy,
um, growing up, fathers and sons
316
00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:49,282
have a special bond where,
you know,
317
00:15:49,365 --> 00:15:51,951
you have football passes,
baseball passes, whatever.
318
00:15:52,034 --> 00:15:55,788
Did you that, first of all,
and if you did, did you feel any different--
319
00:15:55,872 --> 00:15:58,541
like, maybe he was
more delicate than most fathers
320
00:15:58,624 --> 00:16:00,334
or not rugged enough?
321
00:16:00,418 --> 00:16:03,087
-Growing up, my dad did
all the fatherly things
322
00:16:03,171 --> 00:16:06,507
that normal fathers would do,
and even more than that.
323
00:16:06,591 --> 00:16:10,178
We shared a relationship
that, uh-- we talked a lot.
324
00:16:10,261 --> 00:16:12,847
And I got to know him
and he got to know me.
325
00:16:13,639 --> 00:16:18,644
#jazzy piano music#
326
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:12,782
-This was a photo of,
um, him and his mother.
327
00:17:12,865 --> 00:17:15,034
This is Billy right here.
328
00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:16,869
This is, uh, his mother.
329
00:17:16,953 --> 00:17:19,247
And that is his stepfather.
330
00:17:19,330 --> 00:17:24,835
And this photo
was taken about 1943...
331
00:17:24,919 --> 00:17:26,837
during the war.
332
00:17:26,921 --> 00:17:30,424
-[Chase] Can you tell me
about his relationship with his parents?
333
00:17:30,508 --> 00:17:33,052
-You know, there's not
[sighs] a lot to tell.
334
00:17:33,135 --> 00:17:37,431
He was very, um, kind of
secretive about that too.
335
00:17:37,515 --> 00:17:41,018
And I-- |-- I mean, you know,
I guess because he--
336
00:17:41,102 --> 00:17:43,104
He didn't have
any relationship with his dad,
337
00:17:43,187 --> 00:17:47,275
because when he started, um...
338
00:17:47,358 --> 00:17:50,570
you know, went from
a woman to a man
339
00:17:50,653 --> 00:17:54,657
and his dad found out,
his-- his dad, um,
340
00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:57,660
completely black-balled him
from the family.
341
00:17:57,743 --> 00:18:00,705
This is the famous
Duke Ellington photo.
342
00:18:00,788 --> 00:18:03,708
He would hang around his clubs
or find out they were going to be
343
00:18:03,791 --> 00:18:06,669
playing at his clubs, so he
would tell me that he would k--
344
00:18:06,752 --> 00:18:07,712
Keep his ear open.
345
00:18:07,795 --> 00:18:09,880
He said there was
always somebody...
346
00:18:09,964 --> 00:18:13,759
"Oh, so-and-so can't make it
because they're sick."
347
00:18:13,843 --> 00:18:16,679
Or something happened,
he broke his arm, whatever.
348
00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:19,557
Billy would step in and say,
"I can fill his place."
349
00:18:23,811 --> 00:18:25,146
-[man] I heard a rumor.
350
00:18:25,229 --> 00:18:26,856
-Oh, the one about
how it's time for you to retire?
351
00:18:26,939 --> 00:18:28,065
Yeah, I heard that one too!
352
00:18:28,149 --> 00:18:29,692
-[man] No, clown!
353
00:18:29,775 --> 00:18:31,360
Duke's coming.
354
00:18:31,444 --> 00:18:33,362
-To the Candlelight?
355
00:18:33,446 --> 00:18:34,780
-[man] I heard a rumor.
356
00:18:34,864 --> 00:18:36,949
-The one about how
it's time for you to retire?
357
00:18:37,033 --> 00:18:37,908
I heard that one too.
358
00:18:37,992 --> 00:18:39,535
-[man] No, clown!
359
00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:40,536
Duke's coming.
360
00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:42,163
-[laughs]
361
00:18:42,246 --> 00:18:43,331
To the Candlelight?
362
00:18:43,414 --> 00:18:46,125
-Well, if he were smart,
he'd get here before our last set.
363
00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:47,710
See how the pros do it.
364
00:18:47,793 --> 00:18:49,712
-[man] You've got
something to prove to Sir Duke?
365
00:18:49,795 --> 00:18:53,382
-Hey, I was just offering to
take a few of the fancy solos off his hands,
366
00:18:53,466 --> 00:18:54,967
give those royal fingers a rest.
367
00:18:55,051 --> 00:18:56,719
-[man] Well, tonight's
your lucky night, then.
368
00:18:56,802 --> 00:18:57,970
-Why is that?
369
00:18:58,054 --> 00:18:59,305
-[man]
You can tell him yourself.
370
00:18:59,388 --> 00:19:01,182
He just walked in.
371
00:19:01,265 --> 00:19:03,184
-Duke Ellington?
372
00:19:04,393 --> 00:19:06,854
Oh, shit!
373
00:19:07,647 --> 00:19:08,773
-Oh, shit, okay.
374
00:19:08,856 --> 00:19:09,774
-[man] Come on,
let's go over there!
375
00:19:09,857 --> 00:19:10,983
-Uh, wait, um, hold on.
376
00:19:11,067 --> 00:19:12,777
Um...
377
00:19:14,987 --> 00:19:17,698
Okay, I'll go over there
but you-- you do all the talking, okay?
378
00:19:17,782 --> 00:19:21,619
And, uh, [sighs] tell
Jimmy to grab his camera.
379
00:19:22,495 --> 00:19:26,916
-Trans people's survival
through history was based on invisibility,
380
00:19:26,999 --> 00:19:30,127
based on people's ability to either
381
00:19:30,211 --> 00:19:36,008
conceal their feelings of gender dysphoria
or their ability to assimilate
382
00:19:36,092 --> 00:19:38,969
into society without being noticed.
383
00:19:39,053 --> 00:19:41,806
You see that, like--
that people, you know,
384
00:19:41,889 --> 00:19:45,768
lived an entire life as, you know,
385
00:19:45,851 --> 00:19:50,690
the other gender, as it were,
and were revealed postmortem
386
00:19:50,773 --> 00:19:54,985
to be, you know, of the other sex.
387
00:19:55,069 --> 00:20:00,116
It's scary when, like,
centuries of your survival
388
00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:03,869
have been based on not being seen.
389
00:20:03,953 --> 00:20:06,414
-I think when people, um,
390
00:20:06,497 --> 00:20:10,167
think about jazz as a-- as a genre,
391
00:20:10,251 --> 00:20:14,797
as a performance, I think the
first thing that probably comes to mind
392
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,050
is that it's a practice of improvisation.
393
00:20:18,134 --> 00:20:21,262
Improvisation is actually about
making and doing with whatever
394
00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:23,889
it is that you've got at-hand.
395
00:20:23,973 --> 00:20:27,017
So, it's ripe for thinking
through kind of questions of
396
00:20:27,101 --> 00:20:31,731
embodiment and the ways
that we're never far from performance,
397
00:20:31,814 --> 00:20:36,777
and the ways that we, um,
navigate our bodies in the world.
398
00:20:36,861 --> 00:20:40,406
-So I imagine this scene
a couple of ways.
399
00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:44,994
One: that he would kind of throw out,
400
00:20:45,077 --> 00:20:48,414
uh, the joke as just
kind of a throwaway, like,
401
00:20:48,497 --> 00:20:53,210
pretending, um, that he is not concerned.
402
00:20:53,294 --> 00:20:58,299
Or that you actually want to see
maybe a little bit of hesitancy.
403
00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:02,970
You know, because I-- I'm trying
to imagine this, at this point, he...
404
00:21:03,053 --> 00:21:03,888
[sighs]
405
00:21:03,971 --> 00:21:05,639
Where is this point in his life?
406
00:21:05,723 --> 00:21:07,892
This is 1954.
407
00:21:07,975 --> 00:21:09,059
-[woman] He's in
his m-- mid-30s.
408
00:21:09,143 --> 00:21:10,853
-He's 35.
-[woman] Yeah.
409
00:21:10,936 --> 00:21:12,646
-So he's 35 years old.
410
00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:14,648
He's been living male since...
411
00:21:14,732 --> 00:21:16,442
14.
412
00:21:16,525 --> 00:21:18,360
Well, excuse me, 19.
Since 19.
413
00:21:18,444 --> 00:21:21,113
Oh, this is a long time.
414
00:21:21,197 --> 00:21:25,618
And so this moment,
he's met with "Heard a rumor..."
415
00:21:25,701 --> 00:21:27,995
You know, what that could feel like--
I mean the moment that I read it,
416
00:21:28,078 --> 00:21:29,663
my heart was in my asshole.
417
00:21:29,747 --> 00:21:31,665
Immediately, I was like, "Oh my God!"
418
00:21:31,749 --> 00:21:33,542
like, "Is this the moment?!
419
00:21:33,626 --> 00:21:34,919
Is this gonna happen?!"
420
00:21:35,002 --> 00:21:36,545
And then it doesn't.
421
00:21:36,629 --> 00:21:40,341
Um, do you want to see
a little bit of playing with that, or...?
422
00:21:40,424 --> 00:21:41,926
-[Amos]
Yeah, I never even thought of that!
423
00:21:42,009 --> 00:21:43,427
-I'm just saying, I'm like--
424
00:21:43,511 --> 00:21:44,762
-"I've heard a rumor," that's amazing.
425
00:21:44,845 --> 00:21:45,846
-[woman] Yeah.
426
00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:48,140
-You know, 1954, you're a trans guy,
427
00:21:48,224 --> 00:21:51,727
you-- you know, he's clearly--
his intention is not for people
428
00:21:51,811 --> 00:21:55,773
to be seeing him as female
at all, regardless of Diane Middlebrook.
429
00:21:55,856 --> 00:21:56,816
-[woman] Right.
430
00:21:56,899 --> 00:21:58,108
-And what she has to say, anyway.
431
00:21:58,192 --> 00:21:59,068
-[woman] Right.
432
00:21:59,151 --> 00:22:01,695
-Okay. Okay.
433
00:22:01,779 --> 00:22:04,156
Sorry, 'cause I don't know--
I don't know if you were feeling
434
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,074
that or what's going on but--
435
00:22:05,157 --> 00:22:06,575
-[man] That's exactly
what I thought, actually,
436
00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:08,911
before I actually continued
on reading the scene, so...
437
00:22:08,994 --> 00:22:12,623
- I never even thought of that.
-Okay, I'm ready when you are.
438
00:22:12,998 --> 00:22:15,167
-Hey, I heard a rumor.
439
00:22:16,669 --> 00:22:19,171
-The one about how
it's time for you to retire?
440
00:22:19,255 --> 00:22:20,798
Yeah, I heard that one too.
441
00:22:20,881 --> 00:22:22,383
-[man] No, clown!
442
00:22:22,466 --> 00:22:24,134
Duke's coming.
443
00:22:24,218 --> 00:22:26,095
-[scoffs] To the Candlelight?
444
00:22:26,178 --> 00:22:28,138
-[man] He's gigging
at the Elks Club.
445
00:22:28,222 --> 00:22:31,141
Well, you know this is the spot
to get a drink after two.
446
00:22:31,225 --> 00:22:34,103
-Well, if he's smart
he'll get here sooner, catch our final set.
447
00:22:34,186 --> 00:22:35,938
See how the pros do it!
448
00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:37,731
-[man] Oh, you've got
something to prove to Sir Duke?
449
00:22:37,815 --> 00:22:40,985
-Hey, I just offered to take
over some of his fancy solos.
450
00:22:41,068 --> 00:22:42,319
Give his royal fingers a rest.
451
00:22:42,403 --> 00:22:45,197
-[man] Mm, well, tonight's
your lucky night, then.
452
00:22:45,281 --> 00:22:46,365
-Why is that?
453
00:22:46,448 --> 00:22:48,117
-[man] Well, you can tell him yourself.
454
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,536
He just walked in.
455
00:22:50,619 --> 00:22:52,413
-Duke Ellington?
456
00:22:52,496 --> 00:22:54,164
Well, shit!
457
00:22:54,248 --> 00:22:55,541
-[man] Come on,
let's go over there!
458
00:22:55,624 --> 00:22:57,668
-Wait, hold on, now!
459
00:23:00,254 --> 00:23:01,338
I'll go...
460
00:23:01,422 --> 00:23:03,591
but you do all the talking.
461
00:23:03,674 --> 00:23:06,051
Tell Jimmy to get his camera.
462
00:23:07,052 --> 00:23:11,056
-The voice is such an important,
not only metaphor,
463
00:23:11,140 --> 00:23:12,975
but actual physical thing.
464
00:23:13,058 --> 00:23:14,560
When people say
"Have you found your voice?
465
00:23:14,643 --> 00:23:16,228
Like, do you have a voice?
466
00:23:16,312 --> 00:23:17,313
Are you silenced?"
467
00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:21,984
All these questions all-- are all about
can a person say who they are?
468
00:23:22,067 --> 00:23:24,236
And you say who you are with your voice.
469
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,031
Some people will say you
can do it musically as well.
470
00:23:27,114 --> 00:23:30,910
But the ability to articulate
who you are is so fundamentally important
471
00:23:30,993 --> 00:23:33,996
and with-- for anyone.
472
00:23:34,079 --> 00:23:36,832
But with trans people,
this becomes really tricky.
473
00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:39,084
-[man] I could talk, like, down
here all the time but, like,
474
00:23:39,168 --> 00:23:40,377
it just doesn't feel natural to me.
475
00:23:40,461 --> 00:23:42,212
I feel like I'm, like, falling asleep.
476
00:23:42,296 --> 00:23:45,049
-It could damage your--
-[man] Yeah, yeah.
477
00:23:45,132 --> 00:23:47,092
You're supposed to talk,
like, where it feels natural.
478
00:23:47,176 --> 00:23:49,178
-[man] You're a singer.
-Sort of, yeah.
479
00:23:49,261 --> 00:23:50,429
My voice still squeaks!
480
00:23:50,512 --> 00:23:52,056
It keeps dropping so I
can't get used to it.
481
00:23:52,139 --> 00:23:55,142
-That's standard for anyone
going through puberty, like, cis guys too.
482
00:23:55,225 --> 00:23:59,021
-[man] I still am, like, trying to make
my voice sound deeper all the time. [laughs]
483
00:23:59,104 --> 00:24:00,522
I made it. [laughs]
484
00:24:00,606 --> 00:24:02,524
-We like to think that
you can always tell, right?
485
00:24:02,608 --> 00:24:05,778
But clearly, there's anxiety
if you look at the history of media.
486
00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:07,655
There's anxiety that
trans people can fool you,
487
00:24:07,738 --> 00:24:09,239
that your eyes can be deceived.
488
00:24:09,323 --> 00:24:11,909
So, there's a whole history of media
where you see people
489
00:24:11,992 --> 00:24:13,869
and you don't realize that they're trans.
490
00:24:13,953 --> 00:24:15,621
And then something gives it away.
491
00:24:15,704 --> 00:24:17,039
And what is it
that gives it away?
492
00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:18,165
It's one of two things:
493
00:24:18,248 --> 00:24:20,167
either they get undressed
and you see their naked body.
494
00:24:20,250 --> 00:24:22,670
But more often than not, it's the voice.
495
00:24:22,753 --> 00:24:28,300
-It's such a volatile and
complicated thing to imagine
496
00:24:28,384 --> 00:24:31,220
that we know what people's
gender is from looking at them.
497
00:24:31,303 --> 00:24:33,847
Um, and, you know...
498
00:24:33,931 --> 00:24:35,432
hair length.
499
00:24:35,516 --> 00:24:37,393
Gait. Height.
500
00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:43,190
These kinds of things which,
um, may be different based on,
501
00:24:43,273 --> 00:24:45,275
uh, if you stepped
wrong on a stair one day.
502
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,319
-I love your interpretation
of that rumor line too
503
00:24:47,403 --> 00:24:48,946
because it's a question about passing.
504
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:51,448
It's a question about how
you were reading yourself
505
00:24:51,532 --> 00:24:53,242
versus how the room is reading you.
506
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:55,077
Always negotiating that boundary.
507
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,122
-I've lived on both sides of
the coin, both being out and,
508
00:24:58,205 --> 00:25:00,290
at periods of my life, being stealth.
509
00:25:00,374 --> 00:25:03,877
And I remember, you know,
those moments of, like, secrecy,
510
00:25:03,961 --> 00:25:06,588
where somebody might be saying
something to you and you're like,
511
00:25:06,672 --> 00:25:09,466
"Shit, am I being read right now?
512
00:25:09,550 --> 00:25:11,301
Are you about to out me?
513
00:25:11,385 --> 00:25:13,971
Are you gonna tell me something
about myself that I already know?"
514
00:25:14,054 --> 00:25:16,348
You know what I mean?
Like, where is this conversation gonna go?
515
00:25:16,432 --> 00:25:19,393
So, that whole rumor thing was like...
516
00:25:20,185 --> 00:25:21,979
"Oh my god! In 1954 ..."
517
00:25:22,062 --> 00:25:25,065
First of all, I could imagine
what that's like for people present day
518
00:25:25,149 --> 00:25:27,151
as well as the time that I was in.
519
00:25:27,234 --> 00:25:33,198
'54, I could not-- there's no way
that I could imagine what that feels like.
520
00:25:33,282 --> 00:25:37,327
-In terms of thinking about the
kind of politics of disclosure
521
00:25:37,411 --> 00:25:42,583
and the common way that we come
to understand trans people in the past,
522
00:25:42,666 --> 00:25:48,505
um, at the scene of their death
is a very complex one
523
00:25:48,589 --> 00:25:53,302
where I think, um,
many would imagine that they're unsure
524
00:25:53,385 --> 00:25:56,555
if they will be honored
as trans people in death.
525
00:25:56,638 --> 00:26:00,184
When we talk about Billy Tipton
or we talk about some figures
526
00:26:00,267 --> 00:26:05,314
who end up in the media,
it is the retroactive titillation
527
00:26:05,397 --> 00:26:10,110
about their anatomy
that becomes a way for the media story
528
00:26:10,194 --> 00:26:15,074
to grow and for a kind of marketplace
to take shape.
529
00:26:15,491 --> 00:26:18,494
-There's a real sort of obsession with the women
530
00:26:18,577 --> 00:26:23,332
in the story of trans men 'cause the media
doesn't really have sympathy for trans people.
531
00:26:23,415 --> 00:26:25,000
They have sympathy for--
for cisgendered people.
532
00:26:25,084 --> 00:26:26,627
That's the one that they're focusing on.
533
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:31,256
-But I think we also have to
think about disclosure and outing,
534
00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:33,884
um, as another form of harm.
535
00:26:33,967 --> 00:26:37,387
Because people are no longer
able to speak for themselves,
536
00:26:37,471 --> 00:26:42,267
um, that harm is often
masked over by questions like
537
00:26:42,351 --> 00:26:43,685
"Well, what about the wife?"
538
00:26:43,769 --> 00:26:45,187
Or "What about the kids?"
539
00:26:46,063 --> 00:26:47,815
[phone dialing]
540
00:26:47,898 --> 00:26:48,899
-[Kitty] Hello?
541
00:26:48,982 --> 00:26:50,234
-[Diane] Hello Kitty, this is Diane.
542
00:26:50,317 --> 00:26:52,569
Ha-- Have you had
a chance to read the fax?
543
00:26:52,653 --> 00:26:55,656
-[Kitty] Oh, yes.
544
00:26:58,158 --> 00:27:00,661
-[Diane] Well, I'd like
to hear your response.
545
00:27:00,744 --> 00:27:01,995
-[Kitty] What can I tell you?
546
00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:04,206
You believe I'm a liar,
there's nothing I can say.
547
00:27:04,289 --> 00:27:05,999
-[Diane] No, there's everything
you can say.
548
00:27:06,083 --> 00:27:08,460
-[Kitty] No, there's not, Diane.
I told you the truth.
549
00:27:08,544 --> 00:27:11,255
You're saying I didn't.
Then there's nothing I can do.
550
00:27:11,338 --> 00:27:13,757
-[Diane] Well, there is Kitty.
If you-- If you--
551
00:27:13,841 --> 00:27:16,385
-[Kitty] I didn't know!
That's it, period!
552
00:27:16,468 --> 00:27:19,221
You say don't argue with you,
don't go away from the facts.
553
00:27:19,304 --> 00:27:21,473
The facts are I didn't know.
554
00:27:21,557 --> 00:27:23,058
Young Billy didn't know.
555
00:27:23,142 --> 00:27:25,018
How did we react?
556
00:27:25,102 --> 00:27:26,812
It blew us away!
557
00:27:26,895 --> 00:27:27,729
So that's the facts.
558
00:27:27,813 --> 00:27:30,440
Now, you don't believe it,
so what can I tell ya?
559
00:27:30,524 --> 00:27:33,277
You're gonna write a book
and make me a liar, then do it!
560
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,530
-[Diane] I tell you, Kitty, I-- I have, on policy,
561
00:27:36,613 --> 00:27:39,158
believed you from the beginning.
But the--
562
00:27:39,241 --> 00:27:42,828
-[Kitty] Not my policy.
You're going to destroy my life, so that's fine.
563
00:27:42,911 --> 00:27:45,914
-[Diane] Listen, I want to know the truth.
564
00:27:45,998 --> 00:27:47,457
-[Kitty] The truth is I didn't know.
565
00:27:47,541 --> 00:27:48,917
Okay, I told you I didn't know.
566
00:27:49,001 --> 00:27:52,296
-[Diane] Kitty, you told me
that you did not know--
567
00:27:52,379 --> 00:27:53,797
-[Kitty] I didn't!
568
00:27:53,881 --> 00:27:57,467
-[Diane] At the time
that you notified the funeral home,
569
00:27:57,551 --> 00:28:03,390
Don Ball, you called him
on the night that Biddy-- Billy died
570
00:28:03,473 --> 00:28:07,436
and asked for his body to be
removed from the funeral home.
571
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:10,480
-[Kitty] No, I just asked if they could--
if they could have--
572
00:28:10,564 --> 00:28:14,234
If he could take B-- Billy's body--
573
00:28:14,318 --> 00:28:15,652
-[Diane] And it was--
574
00:28:15,736 --> 00:28:18,530
-[Kitty] I don't know I--
it's so confusing, that whole thing.
575
00:28:18,614 --> 00:28:20,282
-[Diane] It was at that time, however,
576
00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:24,119
that you told Don Ball --
and there are-- are a couple of people
577
00:28:24,203 --> 00:28:26,830
who know this -- that Billy
was a woman and that you--
578
00:28:26,914 --> 00:28:29,666
-[Kitty] No, I didn't!
I didn't tell Don, he told me!
579
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:31,460
Now, I don't know
where you're getting this,
580
00:28:31,543 --> 00:28:34,755
but if you're gonna
believe everybody else, fine!
581
00:28:34,838 --> 00:28:42,721
Young Billy told you that he saw
my reaction that I didn't know.
582
00:28:42,804 --> 00:28:46,975
I searched you out
because I knew that you were
583
00:28:47,059 --> 00:28:50,103
supposed to be a person of character.
584
00:28:50,187 --> 00:28:53,315
Whatever your reason is,
Diane, I can't stop you.
585
00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:56,526
You've got the power
and you know it.
586
00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:59,488
Now, you can create me
any way you want to.
587
00:28:59,571 --> 00:29:02,324
I can't stop you.
588
00:29:02,407 --> 00:29:04,159
How sad for me.
589
00:29:04,243 --> 00:29:06,411
How sad for my husband.
590
00:29:06,495 --> 00:29:08,997
How sad that the world is gonna
know me through your eyes
591
00:29:09,081 --> 00:29:11,250
and not the truth.
592
00:29:13,502 --> 00:29:16,922
-Diane Middlebrook's' 'Suits Me:
The Double Life of Billy Tipton'
593
00:29:17,005 --> 00:29:18,590
becomes the text, right?
594
00:29:18,674 --> 00:29:21,009
This is the-- the official
text of Billy Tipton's life.
595
00:29:21,093 --> 00:29:23,345
And as a journalist,
she knows how to do her research.
596
00:29:23,428 --> 00:29:25,597
She researches everywhere.
She goes all over.
597
00:29:25,681 --> 00:29:28,934
She finds his, uh--
people from his childhood.
598
00:29:29,017 --> 00:29:31,395
I mean, she does--
she does the story.
599
00:29:31,478 --> 00:29:34,815
And I think that she does it, um...
600
00:29:35,899 --> 00:29:37,901
well...
601
00:29:38,527 --> 00:29:39,778
asterisk.
602
00:29:39,861 --> 00:29:42,239
Kitty Tipton chose her
because she thought that she would
603
00:29:42,322 --> 00:29:44,574
tell the story the way that
Kitty Tipton wanted it told.
604
00:29:44,658 --> 00:29:46,743
So we have to know that this
story is going to be--
605
00:29:46,827 --> 00:29:49,955
This biography has
multiple lenses already on it.
606
00:29:50,038 --> 00:29:54,084
Her point-of-view was not "Wow,
how would I feel had I been Billy Tipton?"
607
00:29:54,167 --> 00:29:56,128
Her point-of-view was "Wow,
608
00:29:56,211 --> 00:29:58,755
how would I feel
had I been Kitty Tipton?"
609
00:29:58,839 --> 00:30:04,803
-[sighs] Diane Middlebrook's
"Suits Me: The Double Life of Billy Tipton'
610
00:30:04,886 --> 00:30:09,266
was probably one
of the most excruciating things
611
00:30:09,349 --> 00:30:12,811
I personally have had to sit through.
612
00:30:12,894 --> 00:30:19,776
The level of disrespect alone
through the title is sheer comedy.
613
00:30:19,860 --> 00:30:21,653
It's a mock.
614
00:30:21,737 --> 00:30:24,990
I mean, literally just reading
the title, I'm like,
615
00:30:25,073 --> 00:30:28,994
"You gotta be kidding me.
I could only imagine what is in these pages."
616
00:30:29,077 --> 00:30:30,579
And sure enough...
617
00:30:30,662 --> 00:30:34,041
I mean, the amount of
flip-flopping and back-and-forth
618
00:30:34,124 --> 00:30:37,753
and pronoun usage alone
is enough to throw anyone off.
619
00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:40,464
It's important that the research
is there that she's done on her own.
620
00:30:40,547 --> 00:30:42,799
I mean, don't get me wrong,
there was tons of information
621
00:30:42,883 --> 00:30:45,010
that I found to be very useful...
622
00:30:45,093 --> 00:30:46,845
minus her own opinion.
623
00:30:47,554 --> 00:30:49,639
She could have left it to herself.
624
00:30:49,723 --> 00:30:54,353
-So, Billy Tipton is a way into
the story of a-- of a musician's life,
625
00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,606
on the road in the '30s
when music meant a lot.
626
00:30:57,689 --> 00:30:59,524
Partly because he was a
better musician than most of
627
00:30:59,608 --> 00:31:03,195
the musicians he was playing with,
he could assume leadership positions.
628
00:31:03,278 --> 00:31:07,407
And he could also explore
the new field of jazz,
629
00:31:07,491 --> 00:31:09,701
which was utterly dominated by men.
630
00:31:09,785 --> 00:31:12,829
Women were absolutely excluded
from it unless they married into it
631
00:31:12,913 --> 00:31:17,667
like some-- some jazz musicians,
uh, female jazz musicians did.
632
00:31:17,751 --> 00:31:21,546
And the decision to dress
as a guy just strikes me as,
633
00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:25,258
um, ev-- evidence of how
confident she was in herself.
634
00:31:25,342 --> 00:31:28,220
That is that she-- she knew what she wanted,
which was to play music.
635
00:31:28,303 --> 00:31:30,347
She knew that she
couldn't play music of the kind
636
00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:32,307
she wanted to do if she was a female.
637
00:31:32,391 --> 00:31:34,518
So, she solved the problem
by becoming a guy.
638
00:31:34,601 --> 00:31:36,019
[laughs] And just-- that was it.
639
00:31:36,103 --> 00:31:38,688
-There was this sense
of excitement about--
640
00:31:38,772 --> 00:31:42,275
It's like, "Here's a well-known biographer
who's a professor at Stanford
641
00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:46,154
and she's taking this very seriously
and even if she doesn't get it,
642
00:31:46,238 --> 00:31:48,865
you know, 100 percent, it's gonna be positive
643
00:31:48,949 --> 00:31:53,161
and it's gonna raise
the profile of the issue, and, uh..."
644
00:31:53,245 --> 00:31:54,496
It-- It was more like
"She might not get it right
645
00:31:54,579 --> 00:31:56,123
but we're being taken seriously."
646
00:31:56,206 --> 00:32:00,669
I mean, she thought of Billy Tipton as,
like, because he was female-bodied,
647
00:32:00,752 --> 00:32:04,589
it's like, she's a woman
who's engaged in a form of deception.
648
00:32:04,673 --> 00:32:07,843
And m-- maybe, you know, like,
maybe there was a legitimate reason
649
00:32:07,926 --> 00:32:11,721
to do this bad thing of lying to people,
you know, let's figure it out.
650
00:32:11,805 --> 00:32:15,892
I found it a kind of
emotionally violent book to read.
651
00:32:15,976 --> 00:32:19,688
It's like, I felt like,
"I am reading very well-heeled,
652
00:32:19,771 --> 00:32:22,232
very polite transphobia."
653
00:32:22,315 --> 00:32:26,153
-I was contacted by
Diane Middlebrook's research assistant
654
00:32:26,236 --> 00:32:31,783
as she was, uh,
preparing to write Billy's story.
655
00:32:31,867 --> 00:32:37,789
And Diane really wanted to
know mostly about "What is FTM" --
656
00:32:37,873 --> 00:32:41,835
as the language of the day --
"FTM experience like?"
657
00:32:41,918 --> 00:32:47,799
There are trans men who are upset
by any mention that Billy
658
00:32:47,883 --> 00:32:51,720
might have been doing this
just to find work.
659
00:32:51,803 --> 00:32:55,724
I-- and, first, personally,
I don't believe that at all.
660
00:32:55,807 --> 00:32:57,559
- I did read Diane Middlebrook's book,
661
00:32:57,642 --> 00:32:59,436
um, 'Suits Me.'
662
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:01,813
And you know, at the time
when I read that --
663
00:33:01,897 --> 00:33:10,947
so, I'm like maybe 20 max --
I was so inundated by cis culture, right?
664
00:33:11,031 --> 00:33:14,367
Like, I had no other way of thinking.
665
00:33:14,451 --> 00:33:17,787
I knew myself to be
this kind of mix of things.
666
00:33:17,871 --> 00:33:22,709
I knew that I was a-- a "he"
and what everybody else thought was a "she,"
667
00:33:22,792 --> 00:33:24,461
and I knew that there was, you know,
668
00:33:24,544 --> 00:33:27,214
this secrecy,
this huge secrecy about it for myself
669
00:33:27,297 --> 00:33:30,133
because if-- if I-- the one time
that I ever tried to tell anybody about it,
670
00:33:30,217 --> 00:33:31,760
I was shut down so fast I didn't --
671
00:33:31,843 --> 00:33:35,430
so I just kind of had to live with this, like,
knowledge of myself.
672
00:33:35,514 --> 00:33:40,435
And so the confusion in her book, right,
also made sense to me.
673
00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:43,104
Although I would have never
called myself an "ambitious woman."
674
00:33:43,188 --> 00:33:47,400
-One of the-- the core
and central stories of trans people
675
00:33:47,484 --> 00:33:50,946
is that trans people are liars,
that they aren't who they say they are.
676
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:54,658
And this particular narrative
of trans deceit is generally used
677
00:33:54,741 --> 00:33:56,785
to justify violence
against trans people.
678
00:33:56,868 --> 00:34:02,207
And one of the main struggles
and sort of points of activism
679
00:34:02,290 --> 00:34:05,627
is to challenge this notion
of the trans deception.
680
00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:08,797
To say, "No, no, we are not
lying to you about who we are.
681
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,423
We are who we are."
682
00:34:10,507 --> 00:34:13,301
If-- if I say to you that I'm a man,
I'm not lying.
683
00:34:13,385 --> 00:34:15,679
And I'm not really a woman.
I actually am a man.
684
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:21,142
-[Diane] Kitty, have you ever imagined
what Billy must have thought
685
00:34:21,226 --> 00:34:26,690
about what you would think
when his truth emerged after--
686
00:34:26,773 --> 00:34:28,984
-[Kitty] Yeah. I do.
687
00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:32,028
-[Diane] And he expected you
to understand it, I guess.
688
00:34:32,112 --> 00:34:33,446
-[Kitty] Yes.
689
00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:34,823
-[Diane] In the way that you have.
690
00:34:34,906 --> 00:34:36,032
-[Kitty] Yes.
691
00:34:36,116 --> 00:34:38,159
Because they asked me a question:
692
00:34:38,243 --> 00:34:42,872
if you had known,
would you have stayed with Billy?
693
00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:45,792
And my automatic truth was "No."
694
00:34:46,376 --> 00:34:51,506
But I would have listened
and tried to understand.
695
00:34:51,590 --> 00:34:53,925
But I could not have lived with Billy
696
00:34:54,009 --> 00:34:59,306
because Billy would have expected me
to live with the lie and to lie to people.
697
00:34:59,389 --> 00:35:00,724
-[Diane] Mm-hm.
698
00:35:00,807 --> 00:35:02,684
-[Kitty] So, no.
699
00:35:02,767 --> 00:35:04,561
Do I understand?
700
00:35:04,644 --> 00:35:05,895
Yes.
701
00:35:05,979 --> 00:35:08,857
Do I approve of what
Billy did to the children?
702
00:35:08,940 --> 00:35:10,358
No.
703
00:35:10,442 --> 00:35:11,901
Or why Billy did it?
704
00:35:11,985 --> 00:35:12,902
No.
705
00:35:13,361 --> 00:35:18,700
-[Diane] Tell me, is it your analysis
that the reason the--
706
00:35:18,783 --> 00:35:23,705
That John and Scott became so rebellious
707
00:35:23,788 --> 00:35:26,875
was because they didn't have a strong,
masculine presence in Billy?
708
00:35:26,958 --> 00:35:28,501
-[Kitty] Yes.
-[Diane] Is that your analysis?
709
00:35:28,585 --> 00:35:29,919
-[Kitty] Yes, it's-- it's very simple--
710
00:35:30,003 --> 00:35:31,296
-[Diane] First time I've asked you this.
711
00:35:31,379 --> 00:35:32,881
It's only been in the last, you know,
712
00:35:32,964 --> 00:35:39,929
several days to be able to try to get
to that layer of your analytical take on it.
713
00:35:40,013 --> 00:35:43,099
-[Kitty] Yes, I know,
it's positive because even Billy,
714
00:35:43,183 --> 00:35:45,060
sort of a lot of things come out of me
715
00:35:45,143 --> 00:35:50,106
that he really hadn't wanted to hear,
and he admitted it,
716
00:35:50,190 --> 00:35:56,112
I mean, again,
Billy's been having to struggle
717
00:35:56,196 --> 00:36:01,117
with a lot of things within himself,
which is normal.
718
00:36:01,201 --> 00:36:06,039
Because you gotta remember,
here he was and then all of the sudden, blam!
719
00:36:06,122 --> 00:36:06,998
-[Diane] Yeah.
720
00:36:07,082 --> 00:36:08,541
-[Kitty] He's into this other world,
721
00:36:08,625 --> 00:36:12,754
and-- and he's learning all
these things and-- and his--
722
00:36:12,837 --> 00:36:14,923
And this is no-- I'm not downing Billy,
723
00:36:15,006 --> 00:36:18,802
but this fantasy world that Billy...
724
00:36:18,885 --> 00:36:20,804
wove for this one--
-[Diane] Mm-hm.
725
00:36:20,887 --> 00:36:26,893
-[Kitty] And wove around him and--
and didn't prepare him for life, unfortunately.
726
00:36:26,976 --> 00:36:29,604
First of all, he was numb.
727
00:36:29,688 --> 00:36:30,980
Okay?
728
00:36:31,064 --> 00:36:34,192
And of course,
there again, um, I took over.
729
00:36:34,275 --> 00:36:36,820
Young Billy was not prepared for this.
730
00:36:36,903 --> 00:36:38,822
Cruel? Yes.
731
00:36:38,905 --> 00:36:43,910
I believe that that last act of Billy's was cruel...
732
00:36:44,661 --> 00:36:46,204
to me.
-[Diane] Mm-hm.
733
00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:48,748
-[Kitty] Okay, and to Billy.
734
00:36:48,832 --> 00:36:50,375
-[Kitty] Uh...
735
00:36:50,458 --> 00:36:52,585
deliberately cruel?
736
00:36:52,669 --> 00:36:53,670
I don't know.
737
00:36:53,753 --> 00:36:55,213
I don't think so.
738
00:36:56,131 --> 00:37:00,885
#moody piano#
739
00:37:05,932 --> 00:37:10,937
- I have no anger
about anything that happened...
740
00:37:11,354 --> 00:37:14,983
because I understand that he...
741
00:37:15,066 --> 00:37:17,902
his love of something...
742
00:37:19,863 --> 00:37:21,740
is why he did what he did.
743
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:33,752
-[Billy Jr.] And here we are.
744
00:37:36,713 --> 00:37:41,718
It took me a long time to,
um, come to grips with things.
745
00:37:42,552 --> 00:37:46,514
But the more I researched
about him and about the family,
746
00:37:46,598 --> 00:37:49,142
and then we--
we heard from his brother and--
747
00:37:49,225 --> 00:37:51,394
And found out a little bit more,
748
00:37:51,478 --> 00:37:54,063
and then we decided--
me and Kitty decided
749
00:37:54,147 --> 00:37:57,817
"Okay, well, let's just write
this book because it's such a phenomenal thing,
750
00:37:57,901 --> 00:37:59,861
that way people,� you know...
751
00:37:59,944 --> 00:38:02,822
And so we did and--
and the book writer went out and--
752
00:38:02,906 --> 00:38:04,991
And did a lot of research and--
753
00:38:05,074 --> 00:38:08,912
And discovered so many things
and let us know about it.
754
00:38:08,995 --> 00:38:15,293
And when I realized that--
what exactly had transpired,
755
00:38:15,376 --> 00:38:20,089
um, you know,
I-- I-- I wasn't really mad at him.
756
00:38:20,173 --> 00:38:21,716
I just, um...
757
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:22,717
I just started understanding.
758
00:38:22,801 --> 00:38:24,886
It's like, "Oh, okay, well...
759
00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:29,891
you did this, I just happened to
come into your life and-- and, so..."
760
00:38:29,974 --> 00:38:31,351
[deep breath]
761
00:38:31,434 --> 00:38:35,605
It wasn't something that, you know,
he intended to hurt anybody.
762
00:38:39,025 --> 00:38:40,944
-[Chase] When you were on the talks how tour,
763
00:38:41,027 --> 00:38:47,450
did you feel like people were--
telling the story like he was trying to hurt people?
764
00:38:47,534 --> 00:38:49,285
Was that a way it was being framed?
765
00:38:49,369 --> 00:38:51,120
-No, not really. [sighs]
766
00:38:51,204 --> 00:38:53,957
It was just, um... [sighs]
767
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,254
You know, that people were just
hooked up and obsessed with the idea that,
768
00:38:59,337 --> 00:39:01,381
"Oh my goodness,
well, you know, you-- you--
769
00:39:01,464 --> 00:39:03,091
He was a woman,
your mom's a woman,
770
00:39:03,174 --> 00:39:04,551
so they must have been lesbians.
771
00:39:04,634 --> 00:39:06,553
That makes you gay."
[clears throat]
772
00:39:06,636 --> 00:39:10,348
"That means, you know--
and you people are all sick."
773
00:39:10,431 --> 00:39:14,185
-Billy Tipton was a man
in every sense of the word.
774
00:39:14,269 --> 00:39:16,187
He will always be a man.
775
00:39:16,271 --> 00:39:18,314
He will be nothing more than a man.
776
00:39:18,398 --> 00:39:21,943
Everybody who cares
and loves and touched--
777
00:39:22,026 --> 00:39:24,904
Even those who are
throwing mud on his grave--
778
00:39:24,988 --> 00:39:26,531
-You're kissing on another lady.
779
00:39:26,614 --> 00:39:28,825
You might as well have
been a lesbian too, then!
780
00:39:28,908 --> 00:39:32,745
-It was, I thought, so hard
back in the '90s
781
00:39:32,829 --> 00:39:36,958
trying to sort out these conversations
about who's a what.
782
00:39:37,041 --> 00:39:38,585
And, you know,
how do you decide?
783
00:39:38,668 --> 00:39:40,920
And, um, what does it mean?
784
00:39:41,004 --> 00:39:43,965
- I think it's really interesting
that people conflate gender and sexuality
785
00:39:44,048 --> 00:39:45,133
because I-- I don't.
786
00:39:45,216 --> 00:39:46,551
And I don't think I ever have.
787
00:39:46,634 --> 00:39:48,386
So it's sort of confusing for me,
788
00:39:48,469 --> 00:39:50,513
actually, to--
to really understand the impulse.
789
00:39:50,597 --> 00:39:53,349
But I think a lot of people
who are not trans
790
00:39:53,433 --> 00:39:58,062
identify, um, their--
when they think about their sexuality,
791
00:39:58,146 --> 00:40:00,398
they just think about it
through the lens of gender
792
00:40:00,481 --> 00:40:02,358
and then their sense of gender is so binary.
793
00:40:02,442 --> 00:40:04,861
If you're not straight, you're gay.
794
00:40:04,944 --> 00:40:07,405
If you're gay,
you're a man attracted to a man.
795
00:40:07,488 --> 00:40:11,242
You know, it's all a lot of, like, to me,
very rudimentary understandings of, like,
796
00:40:11,326 --> 00:40:15,371
the body, um, and the relationship
between the body and the gender identity
797
00:40:15,455 --> 00:40:18,082
of the body and the,
you know, sexual things the body does,
798
00:40:18,166 --> 00:40:20,960
uh, as being literally the same thing.
799
00:40:21,044 --> 00:40:24,964
Gender is both distinct from sexuality,
but also in some ways
800
00:40:25,048 --> 00:40:28,593
inter playing with, um, you know,
h-- who-- who we are in--
801
00:40:28,676 --> 00:40:31,262
In the bedroom and who we are
as an identity in our bodies.
802
00:40:31,346 --> 00:40:34,223
Like, they are interconnected
and also completely distinct.
803
00:40:34,307 --> 00:40:36,267
And that's a paradox that |--
I can hold,
804
00:40:36,351 --> 00:40:39,020
but I can see that it's challenging
for other people to hold.
805
00:40:39,103 --> 00:40:42,899
-Before there's medical intervention,
what the--
806
00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:47,487
The line between a butch woman
and a trans man becomes tricky,
807
00:40:47,570 --> 00:40:49,113
because many people will think of, uh,
808
00:40:49,197 --> 00:40:51,240
a trans man as somebody
who medically transitions.
809
00:40:51,324 --> 00:40:52,700
And so, therefore, the question between
810
00:40:52,784 --> 00:40:55,828
"Are you and butch lesbian
or are you a trans man?"
811
00:40:55,912 --> 00:40:58,164
That is a question of "Is this
a sexual identity, what you're doing,
812
00:40:58,247 --> 00:41:00,249
or is this a gender identity,
what you're doing?"
813
00:41:00,333 --> 00:41:03,294
And for that question to make sense,
those things need to be separate.
814
00:41:03,378 --> 00:41:08,216
-Discovering my-- my gender
and my sexuality so young and--
815
00:41:08,299 --> 00:41:12,595
And so close in time, one of the--
the first immediate spaces
816
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:15,306
that I attempted to navigate
was lesbian space.
817
00:41:15,390 --> 00:41:17,183
Um...
818
00:41:17,517 --> 00:41:19,686
it seemed to fit or make sense.
819
00:41:19,769 --> 00:41:24,524
And I think more of that was
about my attractions to women.
820
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:31,781
Um, so coming out at 14
and then having to come out again at 16,
821
00:41:31,864 --> 00:41:37,078
realizing that that coming out
at 16 had nothing to do
822
00:41:37,161 --> 00:41:40,248
with my attractions to another human being,
it was about the way that I saw myself.
823
00:41:40,331 --> 00:41:44,877
- I don't think that Billy Tipton
was thinking about his gender at all
824
00:41:44,961 --> 00:41:46,671
the way that we are right now.
825
00:41:46,754 --> 00:41:49,632
The way that I was seeing
Billy's life was someone
826
00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,094
who was living authentically,
who was a private person,
827
00:41:53,177 --> 00:41:56,264
who was a family man, um,
who was doing what he could do
828
00:41:56,347 --> 00:41:59,142
to survive during that time period.
829
00:42:05,064 --> 00:42:07,358
-[Billy on recording]
Merry Christmas, Grandma.
830
00:42:07,442 --> 00:42:11,487
This is coming to you from
the living room of your former home
831
00:42:11,571 --> 00:42:14,198
in Spokane, Washington.
832
00:42:16,784 --> 00:42:19,287
It's a mighty gloomy night out tonight.
833
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:24,125
We've had some snow,
and it's kind of foggy out there
834
00:42:24,208 --> 00:42:28,337
and it's, uh, oh,
probably around 32 degrees,
835
00:42:28,421 --> 00:42:30,381
which isn't too bad
for this time of the year.
836
00:42:30,465 --> 00:42:32,925
We've been very lucky
with the weather,
837
00:42:33,009 --> 00:42:36,763
and we've had, uh, some snow
and some ice and some stuff
838
00:42:36,846 --> 00:42:39,223
but it's all fairly mild now.
839
00:42:39,307 --> 00:42:41,309
In fact, it's good pneumonia weather,
840
00:42:41,392 --> 00:42:44,270
if that's any consolation to anybody.
841
00:42:44,604 --> 00:42:46,481
The family seems to be okay.
842
00:42:46,564 --> 00:42:49,233
Billy's had, oh,
a few things happen to him
843
00:42:49,317 --> 00:42:54,781
and Santa Claus is, uh,
gonna be here pretty soon,
844
00:42:54,864 --> 00:42:57,158
if they're good boys.
845
00:42:57,241 --> 00:42:58,993
[soft coughing]
846
00:42:59,077 --> 00:43:01,329
Excuse me, I've still got my cough,
as you can notice,
847
00:43:01,412 --> 00:43:04,373
and some of these days,
I'm gonna give up these darn cigarettes.
848
00:43:04,457 --> 00:43:07,251
So have a very merry Christmas
and hoist one for me;
849
00:43:07,335 --> 00:43:09,212
I'm not drinking this year.
850
00:43:09,295 --> 00:43:11,464
Okay, who wants to talk next to grandm--
851
00:43:11,547 --> 00:43:13,174
Do you want to talk to your grandmother?
852
00:43:13,257 --> 00:43:14,467
Okay.
853
00:43:17,095 --> 00:43:22,600
-[Kitty on recording] And now, presenting the star
of the Tipton family, little Billy Tipton.
854
00:43:22,683 --> 00:43:24,685
-[Billy Jr. on recording] Yes?
855
00:43:26,479 --> 00:43:27,772
-[woman] You lived with your dad.
856
00:43:27,855 --> 00:43:28,856
-Yes, I did.
857
00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:32,026
-[woman] Okay, and dad passed on last month.
858
00:43:32,110 --> 00:43:33,069
-Yes, he did.
859
00:43:33,152 --> 00:43:36,280
-[woman] Now, you were with him
the day that he died.
860
00:43:36,364 --> 00:43:37,990
Could you tell me what happened?
861
00:43:38,074 --> 00:43:41,452
-[Billy Jr.]
Well, uh, the morning he...passed away,
862
00:43:41,536 --> 00:43:46,541
he, uh-- he'd been ill for,
uh, about a little over a month.
863
00:43:47,291 --> 00:43:50,670
-[Billy Jr.]
It was January 21st, 1989.
864
00:43:51,963 --> 00:43:53,798
[inhales deeply]
865
00:43:53,881 --> 00:43:57,218
I had woken up kind of early, um,
866
00:43:57,301 --> 00:43:59,470
I don't know,
maybe around eight or nine.
867
00:43:59,554 --> 00:44:03,307
-I had taken care of him
during this whole time and,
868
00:44:03,391 --> 00:44:09,063
uh, we-- we, uh, cooperated with
each other as much as we could
869
00:44:09,147 --> 00:44:12,233
but, uh, the morning in particular,
870
00:44:12,316 --> 00:44:16,237
he, uh-- it was quite early, around nine.
871
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:23,369
And...he asked to go sit
in the living room of our home.
872
00:44:23,452 --> 00:44:26,330
And so I-- I was helping him
from one room to another
873
00:44:26,414 --> 00:44:31,043
at that point in time for-- because he
has grown so weak at this time.
874
00:44:31,127 --> 00:44:34,463
And he, uh-- I got him
into the living room,
875
00:44:34,547 --> 00:44:36,424
sat him down, turned on the TV.
876
00:44:36,507 --> 00:44:39,844
I said, uh,
"I'll cook you some breakfast.
877
00:44:39,927 --> 00:44:43,639
Sit there, you know, and just relax."
878
00:44:43,723 --> 00:44:46,309
He had several colds on and of, uh,
879
00:44:46,392 --> 00:44:49,061
pneumonia and bleeding ulcers.
880
00:44:49,145 --> 00:44:52,231
-I went back and checked on him
and-- and he-- he goes,
881
00:44:52,315 --> 00:44:55,860
"Well, I need to
go to the bathroom and-- and stuff,"
882
00:44:55,943 --> 00:44:57,320
so I-- I helped him.
883
00:44:57,403 --> 00:45:00,323
And at that point, I was
literally picking him up,
884
00:45:00,406 --> 00:45:02,742
carrying him from room to room.
885
00:45:02,825 --> 00:45:05,494
Uh, he had lost so much weight.
886
00:45:05,578 --> 00:45:07,788
Um, he goes,
"No, I think I wanna go back to bed."
887
00:45:08,956 --> 00:45:11,167
- I was really upset with him
because for the main fact
888
00:45:11,250 --> 00:45:15,963
is that I had asked him for...
weeks to go see a physician,
889
00:45:16,047 --> 00:45:19,091
a doctor, some kind of medical help.
890
00:45:19,175 --> 00:45:23,346
And he simply refused everyone.
-[woman] Yeah.
891
00:45:23,429 --> 00:45:25,097
-I went into the
kitchen and, uh,
892
00:45:25,181 --> 00:45:30,311
made a phone call because...
I know he'd want me to hang up
893
00:45:30,394 --> 00:45:35,107
if he heard it but, um, I--
I started making a phone call and...
894
00:45:35,191 --> 00:45:37,193
I looked over and...
895
00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:39,904
he kind of slouched over.
896
00:45:39,987 --> 00:45:42,323
And so I hung up the phone,
I-- I ran over to him,
897
00:45:42,406 --> 00:45:44,909
I said, "Are you okay?"
898
00:45:44,992 --> 00:45:48,871
And he just kind of gave me this...
a look that I had never experienced before
899
00:45:48,955 --> 00:45:51,582
and collapsed into my arms.
900
00:45:51,666 --> 00:45:54,877
-He gave this horrendous sigh...
901
00:45:54,961 --> 00:45:58,923
and literally vomited blood all over me.
902
00:45:59,006 --> 00:46:04,345
And, uh-- and basically
just died right in my arms, so...
903
00:46:06,639 --> 00:46:13,479
-He let out a great sigh
and...passed away.
904
00:46:14,313 --> 00:46:16,691
-In your arms?
-[Billy Jr.] Yes. Mm-hm.
905
00:46:16,774 --> 00:46:17,775
-Okay.
906
00:46:17,858 --> 00:46:20,569
Can you-- can I get a producer
to just bring me a Kleenex?
907
00:46:20,653 --> 00:46:21,612
That's all right...
908
00:46:22,530 --> 00:46:27,535
#soft ethereal musics
909
00:46:29,328 --> 00:46:32,623
-Imagine...Billy...
910
00:46:32,707 --> 00:46:37,628
being terrified of not having
medical care at all.
911
00:46:37,712 --> 00:46:40,881
He would not see a doctor.
912
00:46:42,174 --> 00:46:48,639
Trans people going into
emergency rooms in the late 1980s, uh...
913
00:46:50,558 --> 00:46:55,521
People were told
"We don't treat people like you.
914
00:46:56,647 --> 00:46:59,859
We don't understand your body.
915
00:46:59,942 --> 00:47:05,990
We don't--" You know, you become
someone that you are not automatically...
916
00:47:07,533 --> 00:47:09,368
if you're not thrown out.
917
00:47:09,452 --> 00:47:12,288
And that's-- you know,
when you're an older person,
918
00:47:12,371 --> 00:47:15,416
you-- and you're vulnerable
because you're weaker
919
00:47:15,499 --> 00:47:18,419
than you used to be and y--
and when you're ill,
920
00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:24,008
you are even more vulnerable
because you have no capacity to defend yourself.
921
00:47:27,136 --> 00:47:30,681
That's actually one of the things that--
the idea of that
922
00:47:30,765 --> 00:47:34,268
was one of the things
that made me into an activist:
923
00:47:34,352 --> 00:47:38,606
of being unable to stand up for myself.
924
00:47:38,689 --> 00:47:44,320
What would happen to me...
if people didn't understand my body?
925
00:47:51,744 --> 00:47:54,747
-The degree to which trans life
926
00:47:54,830 --> 00:47:59,960
seems to be sutured to
mediatized representations of death,
927
00:48:00,044 --> 00:48:02,546
I think it's a--
it's both a heavy and true,
928
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:08,636
um, uh, way of-- of thinking about
how it is that we come to mark trans life.
929
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,972
-I guess my consciousness
of trans masculine people
930
00:48:12,056 --> 00:48:15,810
probably started with 'Boys Don't Cry.'
931
00:48:16,769 --> 00:48:19,688
It was widely seen
932
00:48:19,772 --> 00:48:23,901
and potentially the first time a,
933
00:48:23,984 --> 00:48:31,492
you know, movie-going audience
was exposed to the story of a trans guy.
934
00:48:32,785 --> 00:48:33,869
-No.
935
00:48:33,953 --> 00:48:35,538
-[Brandon] Why not? You're beautiful.
936
00:48:36,956 --> 00:48:38,332
-Come over here.
937
00:48:38,416 --> 00:48:41,502
-[C. Riley] In the winter
of 1993, Brandon Teena,
938
00:48:41,585 --> 00:48:46,841
along with Phil and Lisa,
were murdered in a farmhouse.
939
00:48:46,924 --> 00:48:48,551
It was a macabre scene.
940
00:48:48,634 --> 00:48:51,345
They were murdered by
two people that they knew.
941
00:48:51,429 --> 00:48:57,476
These two folks who murdered them
were also avowedly white supremacists.
942
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,187
Phil DeVine, who was
also murdered that night,
943
00:49:00,271 --> 00:49:03,983
was a black disabled man,
um, non-trans.
944
00:49:04,066 --> 00:49:10,531
Uh, and I was curious about how a figure
like Phillip DeVine and Brandon Teena
945
00:49:10,614 --> 00:49:12,575
would sit alongside each other.
946
00:49:12,658 --> 00:49:15,828
Media representations of trans masculinity
947
00:49:15,911 --> 00:49:20,916
have often centered around
forms of white trans masculinity
948
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:26,964
but often involve proximities
to black community, black folks,
949
00:49:27,047 --> 00:49:29,216
black cultural expression.
950
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:34,430
In the space of that and the both
immediate and long-term erasure of,
951
00:49:34,513 --> 00:49:37,808
uh, Phillip DeVine,
I was curious about all the things
952
00:49:37,892 --> 00:49:41,604
that got sustained,
that white supremacy is not also,
953
00:49:41,687 --> 00:49:43,981
um, related to transphobia.
954
00:49:44,064 --> 00:49:48,777
Um, and I think
it's fascinating that,
955
00:49:48,861 --> 00:49:51,197
uh, you know, Middlebrook's biography
956
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:57,620
drops a year before the kind of
Brandon Teena death, uh,
957
00:49:57,703 --> 00:50:00,456
becomes a kind of
national conversation again.
958
00:50:00,539 --> 00:50:03,834
-I was 18 in '99.
959
00:50:05,252 --> 00:50:10,883
And here was an example
of what it could look like
960
00:50:10,966 --> 00:50:17,181
to be completely open and honest
about who I was.
961
00:50:17,264 --> 00:50:20,559
And that was an experience
where that wasn't necessarily
962
00:50:20,643 --> 00:50:23,187
Brandon Teena's case,
but it made me feel like
963
00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:25,981
if that's something that could potentially
happen to this person,
964
00:50:26,065 --> 00:50:28,609
that could also possibly happen to me.
965
00:50:28,692 --> 00:50:30,319
Um...
966
00:50:31,529 --> 00:50:33,113
it was scary.
967
00:50:33,197 --> 00:50:35,616
-The time between '89 and '93.
968
00:50:35,699 --> 00:50:41,163
This moment is an important,
massively important moment sort of historically.
969
00:50:41,247 --> 00:50:44,333
It's in this moment where people
start sort of struggling about
970
00:50:44,416 --> 00:50:48,712
how to understand these historical figures
while they're trying to understand themselves.
971
00:50:49,380 --> 00:50:50,881
-[sighs]
972
00:50:54,093 --> 00:50:56,804
I'm looking for the announcer,
Buck something.
973
00:50:56,887 --> 00:50:58,097
-[woman] You're looking at him.
974
00:50:58,180 --> 00:51:00,266
Can I help you?
975
00:51:00,558 --> 00:51:01,809
-Yeah, I'm Billy Tipton.
976
00:51:01,892 --> 00:51:05,020
Um, my band's here for the noon show.
977
00:51:05,104 --> 00:51:07,856
-I'm looking for the announcer, uh,
978
00:51:07,940 --> 00:51:09,024
Buck something.
979
00:51:09,108 --> 00:51:10,359
-[man] You're looking at him.
980
00:51:11,193 --> 00:51:12,444
Can I help you?
981
00:51:14,113 --> 00:51:15,531
-I'm Billy Tipton.
982
00:51:15,614 --> 00:51:17,950
My band is here for the...
983
00:51:18,742 --> 00:51:20,869
the noon show.
984
00:51:21,537 --> 00:51:23,247
Sorry, I-- I wasn't expecting you to be a--
985
00:51:23,330 --> 00:51:25,749
-[man] Well, same to you, buddy.
986
00:51:25,833 --> 00:51:27,126
-Hey, you don't gotta yell.
987
00:51:27,209 --> 00:51:28,252
-[man] This ain't a yell.
988
00:51:28,335 --> 00:51:30,045
This is my regular voice.
989
00:51:30,129 --> 00:51:31,547
-You got any tips?
990
00:51:32,339 --> 00:51:34,049
-[woman] It's all in the gut.
991
00:51:34,133 --> 00:51:39,263
KFXR Radio, Buck Thomason
coming to you live and in hi-fi!
992
00:51:39,346 --> 00:51:41,724
-[laughs]
-[woman] You hear that?
993
00:51:41,807 --> 00:51:43,851
-Well, gee, I-- I sure do.
994
00:51:43,934 --> 00:51:45,477
-Who is Buck?
995
00:51:45,561 --> 00:51:46,729
Why is he so surprising?
996
00:51:46,812 --> 00:51:47,980
-Please tell me. I'd love to know.
997
00:51:48,063 --> 00:51:51,817
-[Amos] Buck, um-- Buck's father
owned the radio station and Buck was
998
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:54,153
a trans masculine potentially trans man--
999
00:51:54,236 --> 00:51:57,740
-Oh.
-[Amos] Um, visibly trans, you could say.
1000
00:51:57,823 --> 00:51:59,533
-I'm obsessed with Buck Thomason,
1001
00:51:59,617 --> 00:52:02,494
the idea of Buck and--
and the character of Buck.
1002
00:52:02,578 --> 00:52:08,459
A boisterous, loud, large, um,
masculine-presenting child of
1003
00:52:08,542 --> 00:52:11,879
a radio station owner
who gave Billy his first shot.
1004
00:52:11,962 --> 00:52:14,923
-[Amos] This was probably the first --
and maybe only -- time
1005
00:52:15,007 --> 00:52:17,092
Billy interacted with another trans guy.
1006
00:52:17,176 --> 00:52:18,594
-Buck was, too?
-[Amos] Buck.
1007
00:52:18,677 --> 00:52:20,179
So, like--
-Whoa.
1008
00:52:20,262 --> 00:52:22,473
-[Amos] The idea is that this--
-Oh!
1009
00:52:22,556 --> 00:52:24,642
-[Amos] Could potentially
be the first time that they are
1010
00:52:24,725 --> 00:52:25,934
seeing someone like--
-They recognize--
1011
00:52:26,018 --> 00:52:28,103
I understand now. I thought--
-[Amos] They're kind of reading each other,
1012
00:52:28,187 --> 00:52:29,355
you know?
-I see.
1013
00:52:29,438 --> 00:52:30,314
-[laughing] This must have really just, like,
1014
00:52:30,397 --> 00:52:33,400
blown his hair back,
just having this exchange, so...
1015
00:52:33,484 --> 00:52:35,903
I was going into real-time
what that might feel like for me in--
1016
00:52:35,986 --> 00:52:38,781
In a room like that, like "Oh, my gosh."
1017
00:52:38,864 --> 00:52:41,700
Seeing myself,
an example of myself, you know?
1018
00:52:41,784 --> 00:52:43,786
- I wish there was more information on Buck.
1019
00:52:43,869 --> 00:52:45,537
-I mean, the most I know when eventually,
1020
00:52:45,621 --> 00:52:48,624
he identifies at some point as just, like, "ML."
1021
00:52:48,707 --> 00:52:50,292
You know?
He ch-- he totally changes his name,
1022
00:52:50,376 --> 00:52:54,088
so we don't know, like, who he is
or what happens afterwards, I don't know.
1023
00:52:54,171 --> 00:52:55,381
-[Amos] He disappeared.
-[Marquise] Yeah.
1024
00:52:55,464 --> 00:52:58,050
Some of us just want to be under-the-radar.
1025
00:52:58,133 --> 00:53:01,220
-[Amos] Well, I feel like Billy
did want to be under-the-radar.
1026
00:53:01,303 --> 00:53:04,098
-His-- [sighs] his experience
is really interesting to me in that
1027
00:53:04,181 --> 00:53:06,141
he was hiding in plain sight.
1028
00:53:06,225 --> 00:53:09,144
It actually made him as normal
and as simple as possible.
1029
00:53:09,228 --> 00:53:12,189
He was giving, he was kind,
he was just like anyone else,
1030
00:53:12,272 --> 00:53:15,693
just not everyone had access
to this small piece of information
1031
00:53:15,776 --> 00:53:18,028
that, quite honestly,
was none of their business.
1032
00:53:18,112 --> 00:53:20,030
-He had the opportunity to be like Buck,
1033
00:53:20,114 --> 00:53:21,990
but he just wasn't.
-[Amos] Yeah.
1034
00:53:22,074 --> 00:53:23,409
-That's-- that's an interesting to understand:
1035
00:53:23,492 --> 00:53:26,453
that it's not just 'cause he was trans
that he was actually introverted.
1036
00:53:26,537 --> 00:53:27,788
-[Amos] Mm-hm.
-[woman] Yeah.
1037
00:53:27,871 --> 00:53:30,040
-Well...
[laughter]
1038
00:53:30,124 --> 00:53:31,166
Nice.
[laughter]
1039
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:33,377
Nice-- nice highlight.
1040
00:53:33,460 --> 00:53:35,045
Um, thank you for giving me that.
1041
00:53:35,129 --> 00:53:36,004
-[Amos] Yeah.
-Uh--
1042
00:53:36,088 --> 00:53:37,005
-[Amos] Do you wanna try it again?
1043
00:53:37,089 --> 00:53:37,965
-It changes everything.
-[Amos] Yeah.
1044
00:53:38,048 --> 00:53:40,008
-Yeah, yeah.
1045
00:53:40,092 --> 00:53:49,309
-Choosing to get onstage is also
wanting to control how people look at you
1046
00:53:49,393 --> 00:53:55,482
and wanting to create something
1047
00:53:55,566 --> 00:54:00,904
where you require your spectator
to look at you differently.
1048
00:54:00,988 --> 00:54:05,659
-Performances always offer
this opportunity for exception,
1049
00:54:05,743 --> 00:54:11,165
for people to, um,
step outside of the cultural norms
1050
00:54:11,248 --> 00:54:13,625
and-- for the sake of entertainment.
1051
00:54:13,709 --> 00:54:21,175
You know, trans and queer people
have always found refuge in those spaces.
1052
00:54:22,134 --> 00:54:25,637
-I'm looking for the announcer,
uh, Buck something.
1053
00:54:25,721 --> 00:54:26,889
-[woman] You're looking at him.
1054
00:54:26,972 --> 00:54:28,098
Can I help you?
1055
00:54:29,099 --> 00:54:30,642
-Oh...
1056
00:54:30,726 --> 00:54:32,269
I'm Billy Tipton.
1057
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:38,025
Um, my band's here for the...
uh, the noon show.
1058
00:54:39,151 --> 00:54:41,069
Sorry, I wasn't expecting--
1059
00:54:41,153 --> 00:54:42,654
-[woman] Well, same to you, buddy.
1060
00:54:42,738 --> 00:54:43,655
-Hey.
1061
00:54:43,739 --> 00:54:45,115
You don't gotta yell.
1062
00:54:45,199 --> 00:54:48,368
-[woman] That ain't a yell, this is my--
this is my regular voice.
1063
00:54:50,370 --> 00:54:51,538
-[chuckles]
1064
00:54:53,791 --> 00:54:55,292
Got any tips?
1065
00:54:56,627 --> 00:54:58,086
-[woman] It's all in the gut.
1066
00:54:59,171 --> 00:55:04,134
KFXR Radio, Buck Thomason
coming to you live and in hi-fi.
1067
00:55:04,843 --> 00:55:06,678
You hear that?
1068
00:55:06,762 --> 00:55:09,097
-Well, gee, I sure do.
1069
00:55:10,349 --> 00:55:11,391
[chuckles]
1070
00:55:12,434 --> 00:55:14,686
-[woman] I've seen you around.
1071
00:55:14,770 --> 00:55:18,982
-Nah, I... think I'd
remember a face like yours.
1072
00:55:21,151 --> 00:55:24,655
-[woman] I know the old lady
you follow around, the-- the famous one.
1073
00:55:24,738 --> 00:55:26,907
-Ah...
-[woman] I have seen her on postcards.
1074
00:55:26,990 --> 00:55:32,120
-[chuckling] Oh, yeah, well, hey,
now, that's, uh, my better half, Non Earl.
1075
00:55:32,204 --> 00:55:34,122
-[woman] I need me a better half.
1076
00:55:34,206 --> 00:55:36,291
I only got worse halves.
1077
00:55:36,375 --> 00:55:37,543
-Huh.
1078
00:55:39,169 --> 00:55:41,964
Maybe practice being a gentleman.
1079
00:55:42,047 --> 00:55:43,715
-[woman] A gentleman, huh?
1080
00:55:45,217 --> 00:55:47,010
I guess I might need some tips.
1081
00:55:48,512 --> 00:55:50,722
[both chuckle]
1082
00:55:50,806 --> 00:55:52,099
-All right.
1083
00:55:52,182 --> 00:55:53,559
-[woman] Come on, this way.
1084
00:55:53,642 --> 00:55:56,603
-Thank you, okay, wow.
1085
00:55:56,687 --> 00:55:58,355
[laughs]
1086
00:55:59,815 --> 00:56:02,234
Ah, that was kinda hard to get through.
1087
00:56:02,317 --> 00:56:03,068
-[Amos] Yeah?
1088
00:56:03,151 --> 00:56:06,989
-Yeah, it's, uh-- yeah, I just wasn't-- yeah.
1089
00:56:07,823 --> 00:56:10,742
And he walks in and he feels like
he's the only person in the world
1090
00:56:10,826 --> 00:56:12,953
who's like him, you know?
1091
00:56:13,036 --> 00:56:14,162
I've had that moment.
1092
00:56:14,246 --> 00:56:15,622
I had that moment with you.
1093
00:56:15,706 --> 00:56:17,749
-[Amos] Yeah?
-God, I r-- I'm just realizing that.
1094
00:56:17,833 --> 00:56:20,210
Yeah, I saw you-- I saw your magazine,
1095
00:56:20,294 --> 00:56:22,838
my w-- you know my wife did all the research.
1096
00:56:22,921 --> 00:56:24,673
-[Amos] Oh, right.
-Just stop me if I'm taking up too much time.
1097
00:56:24,756 --> 00:56:25,591
-[Amos] No.
1098
00:56:25,674 --> 00:56:29,344
-Yeah, my wife-- well,
I'm-- |-- |-- I transitioned like,
1099
00:56:29,428 --> 00:56:34,349
uh, 12 years ago, and my wife--
I was really nervous about it
1100
00:56:34,433 --> 00:56:37,185
and there wasn't in--
any information out that was, like,
1101
00:56:37,269 --> 00:56:39,187
accessible to me, and she
started watching YouTube videos
1102
00:56:39,271 --> 00:56:41,148
and she found 'Original Plumbing.'
1103
00:56:41,231 --> 00:56:43,817
And so, she was like,
"Read this magazine," and I was like, "No."
1104
00:56:43,901 --> 00:56:46,111
I just didn't want to be trans,
I didn't want to be in
1105
00:56:46,194 --> 00:56:50,032
the trans community, the queer community,
I just didn't want any of it.
1106
00:56:50,115 --> 00:56:54,244
Um, and she was like,
"No, you should really look at this magazine."
1107
00:56:54,328 --> 00:56:58,373
And I did and I saw the--
Amos and Rocco were the ones making it
1108
00:56:58,457 --> 00:57:01,168
and they just seemed
so cool and laid-back and honest,
1109
00:57:01,251 --> 00:57:02,628
and the guys in it were honest.
1110
00:57:02,711 --> 00:57:05,213
I thought, "Okay, well, maybe I could do this.
1111
00:57:05,297 --> 00:57:07,674
Maybe I could be like this."
1112
00:57:07,758 --> 00:57:10,802
And I feel like that's what just happened.
You know?
1113
00:57:10,886 --> 00:57:14,056
Like, he just walked in the room
and saw himself.
1114
00:57:14,681 --> 00:57:16,016
And that's what...
1115
00:57:16,099 --> 00:57:17,476
God.
[cries softly]
1116
00:57:17,559 --> 00:57:18,852
Yeah.
[sighs]
1117
00:57:18,936 --> 00:57:21,313
So he-- so he got to have a life, you know?
1118
00:57:21,396 --> 00:57:23,982
And he was a little more open
than he probably would have been.
1119
00:57:25,776 --> 00:57:27,444
You never know the impression
you're gonna make
1120
00:57:27,527 --> 00:57:28,904
or the effect you're gonna have on people.
1121
00:57:28,987 --> 00:57:30,238
-[Amos] Wait, do you know
what I have with me, actually?
1122
00:57:30,322 --> 00:57:31,698
-What?
-[Amos] You made this for me.
1123
00:57:31,782 --> 00:57:33,825
[laughs]
-Oh, Amos!
1124
00:57:33,909 --> 00:57:35,661
-[Amos] Do you remember that?
-Yes!
1125
00:57:35,744 --> 00:57:38,830
-It's like this New Kids on the Block,
um, thing, which I use in, you know,
1126
00:57:38,914 --> 00:57:40,248
my-- wherever |--
-You use it?
1127
00:57:40,332 --> 00:57:41,083
-Yeah.
-I am so moved.
1128
00:57:41,166 --> 00:57:42,960
-And it says, "For Amos. Love, Alex."
1129
00:57:43,043 --> 00:57:45,212
And it's just so funny, 'cause
we were talking about boy bands, I think.
1130
00:57:45,295 --> 00:57:47,297
-Uh-huh, boy bands.
-Yeah, which is like all I ever talk about.
1131
00:57:47,381 --> 00:57:49,091
-'Cause we were '90s guys, yeah.
[laughter]
1132
00:57:49,174 --> 00:57:51,051
-What did you think
when you saw this casting call?
1133
00:57:51,134 --> 00:57:53,303
-What did I think when I s--
[laughs]
1134
00:57:53,387 --> 00:57:55,055
"Who are these crazy people?"
1135
00:57:55,138 --> 00:57:58,225
Um, I thought it was really cool, though.
1136
00:57:58,308 --> 00:58:01,853
I thought it was amazing to see
that someone was taking interest
1137
00:58:01,937 --> 00:58:05,941
in trans masculine history, and our story,
1138
00:58:06,024 --> 00:58:07,943
and in someone like Billy.
1139
00:58:08,026 --> 00:58:11,446
Um, of course, I thought it was a little odd --
1140
00:58:11,530 --> 00:58:13,782
"cause clearly I am not white --
1141
00:58:13,865 --> 00:58:18,745
um, coming in to read for a part like Billy Tipton.
But then again, at the same time,
1142
00:58:18,829 --> 00:58:22,165
I think the casting process
looks like as many different
1143
00:58:22,249 --> 00:58:27,587
versions and variations of transness
walking into a casting director's office.
1144
00:58:27,671 --> 00:58:31,049
There are so few accounts
of us having access to, like,
1145
00:58:31,133 --> 00:58:36,138
history that belongs to us
that is being created by us,
1146
00:58:36,221 --> 00:58:38,682
that is being curated by us,
that allows our--
1147
00:58:38,765 --> 00:58:41,309
Our voice and our vision
to be a part of the process.
1148
00:58:41,393 --> 00:58:42,894
-We are learning how to tell our own stories.
1149
00:58:42,978 --> 00:58:44,521
Trans people -- especially trans men --
1150
00:58:44,604 --> 00:58:48,316
have not existed in a cul--
the cultural imagination, you know, at all, really.
1151
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,362
Uh, and so the idea of now
having this process of looking back
1152
00:58:52,446 --> 00:58:56,199
and trying to-- trying to
figure out what our lineage is,
1153
00:58:56,283 --> 00:58:59,536
it makes a lot of sense to be looking at--
at-- at these sorts of stories.
1154
00:58:59,619 --> 00:59:02,789
But to be fair to Billy,
Billy probably never would have
1155
00:59:02,873 --> 00:59:06,710
even been a person we even knew who he was
if the media hadn't made him a tabloid story.
1156
00:59:07,210 --> 00:59:11,548
-History tells you who matters,
who counts as a human being and as a person.
1157
00:59:11,631 --> 00:59:13,717
So people who--
whose history has been erased,
1158
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,345
they've gotten very good
at finding people like them in the past
1159
00:59:17,429 --> 00:59:20,265
because you know they're there, you know it.
1160
00:59:20,348 --> 00:59:23,769
Imagine you're a butch lesbian,
and you know that you're a butch lesbian,
1161
00:59:23,852 --> 00:59:26,855
you exist in the world,
people make fun of you, they treat you poorly,
1162
00:59:26,938 --> 00:59:28,815
and you have no models, you have no history,
1163
00:59:28,899 --> 00:59:31,526
it's like you never existed
but you know you must have.
1164
00:59:31,610 --> 00:59:33,528
And then, you see Billy Tipton and you think,
1165
00:59:33,612 --> 00:59:35,781
"Billy Tipton's just like me:
another butch lesbian.
1166
00:59:35,864 --> 00:59:37,324
I mean, okay, Billy Tipton passed,
1167
00:59:37,407 --> 00:59:39,701
but I know that I'm not alone,
I know that people like me existed
1168
00:59:39,785 --> 00:59:41,411
and they did things,
they were jazz musicians,
1169
00:59:41,495 --> 00:59:43,163
maybe one of the greatest jazz musicians ever.
1170
00:59:43,246 --> 00:59:44,247
But, like, they-- they couldn't--
1171
00:59:44,331 --> 00:59:46,374
But no one can know about it
because of this thing, right?"
1172
00:59:46,458 --> 00:59:48,960
So, like, you're looking
for someone who exists like you
1173
00:59:49,044 --> 00:59:51,004
so you're not alone.
1174
00:59:51,088 --> 00:59:53,215
But trans people also
need those figures, right?
1175
00:59:53,298 --> 00:59:55,050
So they're also like,
"But, well, hold on a second.
1176
00:59:55,133 --> 00:59:58,261
You can't have all of the people, right?
Because this one I think is different.
1177
00:59:58,345 --> 01:00:01,056
I think this one is like me, right?
I think this one is mine."
1178
01:00:01,139 --> 01:00:05,227
And then, there are those straight women
who always wanted to be jazz musicians,
1179
01:00:05,310 --> 01:00:07,854
but they couldn't because
they were sort of shut down.
1180
01:00:08,772 --> 01:00:11,775
And they're like, "Well, maybe, actually,
Billy Tipton is like me, right?
1181
01:00:11,858 --> 01:00:14,569
Maybe he's also a straight woman like me and--
1182
01:00:14,653 --> 01:00:16,446
And wanted to be a jazz musician
just like me but--
1183
01:00:16,530 --> 01:00:19,658
But he went and did something about it and |--
and I couldn't do something about it."
1184
01:00:19,741 --> 01:00:21,201
-When I encountered Billy Tipton,
1185
01:00:21,284 --> 01:00:24,871
that was the first time I "encountered"
trans masculinity [laughs], right?
1186
01:00:24,955 --> 01:00:27,707
Like, I en-- I encountered
another trans man who was
1187
01:00:27,791 --> 01:00:31,628
living a life that I could see myself in, right?
1188
01:00:32,587 --> 01:00:34,422
He didn't consent to that visibility,
1189
01:00:34,506 --> 01:00:36,883
which sucks, but I'm grateful.
1190
01:00:36,967 --> 01:00:39,970
-I think most of us
need to see models of things
1191
01:00:40,053 --> 01:00:42,222
in order to help imagine new realities.
1192
01:00:42,305 --> 01:00:46,977
The way that identities get framed by others
really can dictate truly how you see yourself.
1193
01:00:47,310 --> 01:00:50,730
-It's not possible to create
any kind of social changes
1194
01:00:50,814 --> 01:00:55,402
or justice or movement without
doing something that we haven't done before.
1195
01:00:55,485 --> 01:00:57,612
-[Chase] Are there any
downsides to visibility?
1196
01:00:57,696 --> 01:00:58,655
-Absolutely.
1197
01:00:58,738 --> 01:01:01,408
Retaliation is a downside.
1198
01:01:01,491 --> 01:01:04,452
Um, targeting, violence.
1199
01:01:04,536 --> 01:01:08,832
Was I willing [sighs]
to live a life that was a lie...
1200
01:01:08,915 --> 01:01:13,003
you know, or did I want
to live a life that made me happy,
1201
01:01:13,086 --> 01:01:16,339
that I could feel good about,
even if it meant that I could be hurt?
1202
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:20,051
The decision was pretty simple,
you know what I mean?
1203
01:01:20,135 --> 01:01:24,723
I'd rather live my life standing
up on my own two-- two feet
1204
01:01:24,806 --> 01:01:28,935
than being on my knees,
pretending to be something that I'm not,
1205
01:01:29,019 --> 01:01:31,646
simply because other people
are uncomfortable about my experience.
1206
01:01:31,730 --> 01:01:33,190
-You know, often, people would say,
1207
01:01:33,273 --> 01:01:38,695
"Well, uh, how do you square
that Laverne Cox and-- and Janet Mock
1208
01:01:38,778 --> 01:01:41,781
are household names
and black trans women are
1209
01:01:41,865 --> 01:01:44,659
the most vulnerable population
to premature death?"
1210
01:01:44,743 --> 01:01:47,287
And I was like,
"Right, those exist at the same time.
1211
01:01:47,370 --> 01:01:50,123
Like, visibility doesn't equal safety."
1212
01:01:51,625 --> 01:01:56,338
#delicate piano#
1213
01:01:58,006 --> 01:02:02,385
-I know that when he-- after he passed away,
1214
01:02:02,469 --> 01:02:06,139
they didn't find his bindings
or anything like that around the house.
1215
01:02:06,223 --> 01:02:08,683
Um, so...
1216
01:02:08,767 --> 01:02:12,729
to me, that says the he was
fully aware that he was dying
1217
01:02:12,812 --> 01:02:17,400
and that he was doing
whatever he had to do to get rid of
1218
01:02:17,484 --> 01:02:22,447
things that would, um,
make people question or wonder.
1219
01:02:23,782 --> 01:02:29,371
He was just trying to, you know,
get rid of that part of-- that-- that part of him.
1220
01:02:30,914 --> 01:02:36,211
-It makes me wonder whether
he had an inkling that he was dying
1221
01:02:36,294 --> 01:02:40,006
and-- and didn't want that found, you know?
1222
01:02:40,090 --> 01:02:44,511
If I had ever found out the secret myself,
I probably would have kept it.
1223
01:02:44,594 --> 01:02:48,014
Um, and had he been alive,
I probably would have
1224
01:02:48,098 --> 01:02:49,975
not talked to him about it for a while.
1225
01:02:50,058 --> 01:02:53,144
But eventually, I, you know-- I would have.
1226
01:02:53,228 --> 01:02:55,939
-[Chase] How does it feel
to know that you're the last person
1227
01:02:56,022 --> 01:02:57,732
who's carrying the story in this way?
1228
01:02:57,816 --> 01:02:59,818
-Lonely, very lonely.
1229
01:02:59,901 --> 01:03:02,445
Gosh, [laughs] I look back on it and think,
1230
01:03:02,529 --> 01:03:06,366
you know, "How did I ever get through all that?"
You know, so...
1231
01:03:10,704 --> 01:03:13,790
-[Chase] Yeah, it's so much to carry... alone.
1232
01:03:13,873 --> 01:03:15,542
Or to feel like you can't--
don't have a community.
1233
01:03:15,625 --> 01:03:18,545
-Well, you know, it-- it's...
1234
01:03:18,628 --> 01:03:21,423
[sighs]
better now, you know?
1235
01:03:21,506 --> 01:03:24,384
I've answered these
questions thousands of times,
1236
01:03:24,467 --> 01:03:28,388
but you'll ask them in--
in such a way that I'm like, "Oh, wow."
1237
01:03:28,471 --> 01:03:31,766
[laughs]
Like, you know? So, um...
1238
01:03:31,850 --> 01:03:36,813
And-- and actually having
to make me think of a lot of things
1239
01:03:36,896 --> 01:03:41,735
from back then again, you know?
Just-- I roll it off, so...
1240
01:03:44,529 --> 01:03:49,200
-[Chase] Yeah, your--
your dad's story is very important to me.
1241
01:03:49,284 --> 01:03:54,080
And it makes me feel emotional
and I feel very grateful to be here with you.
1242
01:03:54,164 --> 01:03:57,459
You know, I'm a trans person.
I don't know if you know that.
1243
01:03:57,542 --> 01:03:59,836
And I think about--
-Really?
1244
01:03:59,919 --> 01:04:01,296
-[Chase] Yeah.
1245
01:04:01,379 --> 01:04:06,801
And I think about how lots of people
in my world and my community
1246
01:04:06,885 --> 01:04:10,305
look to your dad as a-- a kind of hero.
-Oh, really?
1247
01:04:10,388 --> 01:04:15,518
-[Chase] As someone who was able
to live an incredibly successful and vibrant life
1248
01:04:15,602 --> 01:04:19,439
at a time when people
didn't have any resources.
1249
01:04:24,319 --> 01:04:28,615
-[Scott] You know,
I hope Billy Jr. doesn't feel lied to.
1250
01:04:28,698 --> 01:04:32,702
I hope that he's been able
to see his way out of that trope
1251
01:04:32,786 --> 01:04:41,878
to understand that, like, his dad was a person
going through a really complicated thing...
1252
01:04:41,961 --> 01:04:45,673
in order to be a person that he would-- I hope,
1253
01:04:45,757 --> 01:04:48,218
and I don't know what their--
I don't know their family situation
1254
01:04:48,301 --> 01:04:54,099
but in my grandest hopes could be
someone that his son would look up to.
1255
01:04:56,643 --> 01:04:57,852
-Yeah.
1256
01:04:57,936 --> 01:05:00,522
There are so many things that
we don't know about our family members.
1257
01:05:00,605 --> 01:05:02,857
Everybody has a private life.
1258
01:05:02,941 --> 01:05:10,365
It's okay for us to have private,
internal lives and to kind of like,
1259
01:05:10,448 --> 01:05:14,869
um, accept that there are
mysterious parts of other people.
1260
01:05:14,953 --> 01:05:18,665
You know, we are enigmatic, even to ourselves.
1261
01:05:18,748 --> 01:05:21,668
-Knowing that he was gonna die,
like, was he thinking
1262
01:05:21,751 --> 01:05:23,294
"Now, everybody's gonna find out?"
1263
01:05:23,378 --> 01:05:25,296
Was he thinking
"What are my kids gonna think?"
1264
01:05:25,380 --> 01:05:29,175
I can't imagine how unbearable
it must have been to know
1265
01:05:29,259 --> 01:05:31,177
that, like, in your last moments--
1266
01:05:31,261 --> 01:05:33,555
And I suppose that's what
death is all about anyway, right?
1267
01:05:33,638 --> 01:05:37,684
But is that-- in your last moments,
to know that you...
1268
01:05:37,767 --> 01:05:41,229
that your life is out of your own control, right?
1269
01:05:41,312 --> 01:05:42,522
-Yeah.
1270
01:05:42,605 --> 01:05:45,692
- I started my transition in 1988.
1271
01:05:45,775 --> 01:05:48,695
So I had to tell my daughter "I'm gonna change."
1272
01:05:48,778 --> 01:05:52,532
At first, she was not happy about it,
and she goes...
1273
01:05:52,615 --> 01:05:56,327
[sighs] "I don't want you to do it
because you'll grow very tall
1274
01:05:56,411 --> 01:05:58,204
and I won't recognize you."
1275
01:05:59,414 --> 01:06:06,880
And I said, "Well, actually, I'm done growing tall,
I'm not gonna get any taller.
1276
01:06:06,963 --> 01:06:09,549
You know, you are going to grow very tall.
1277
01:06:10,467 --> 01:06:14,721
You are gonna be much,
much taller than you are now.
1278
01:06:14,804 --> 01:06:18,933
And that change will happen
very slowly over time
1279
01:06:19,017 --> 01:06:21,561
and we will always recognize each other.
1280
01:06:23,062 --> 01:06:28,276
So if I go through this change,
you will still-- it will still be slow and gradual
1281
01:06:28,359 --> 01:06:30,987
and we will always recognize each other."
1282
01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:36,034
#gentle ethereal musics
1283
01:06:36,326 --> 01:06:40,205
-When we adopted three children,
he was a doting,
1284
01:06:40,288 --> 01:06:43,625
loving, caring, ordinary father.
1285
01:06:43,708 --> 01:06:45,585
-[man] Father.
-Father.
1286
01:06:46,127 --> 01:06:48,588
He was their father.
1287
01:06:48,671 --> 01:06:54,344
He gave me a warmth and a love and support
1288
01:06:54,427 --> 01:06:57,388
that every woman dreams of.
1289
01:06:57,472 --> 01:06:59,182
And this is what I got.
1290
01:07:00,767 --> 01:07:02,852
-At first, it was a-- it was a great shock.
1291
01:07:02,936 --> 01:07:09,984
I-- I-- my-- you know,
I could not believe that this had happened.
1292
01:07:10,068 --> 01:07:12,779
But it was only moments later that...
1293
01:07:15,490 --> 01:07:19,494
I told myself, I said,
"Hey, this-- nothing's changed."
1294
01:07:19,577 --> 01:07:23,289
No matter what he was,
I loved him just the way he was.
1295
01:07:26,376 --> 01:07:30,004
-As quickly as we can
get to a point where being human
1296
01:07:30,088 --> 01:07:32,298
is the fundamental way in which
we understand trans bodies,
1297
01:07:32,382 --> 01:07:33,716
like, the-- the better.
1298
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,845
I think we have to recognize
that the culture has not totally
1299
01:07:37,929 --> 01:07:39,430
figured out how to be ready for us yet,
1300
01:07:39,514 --> 01:07:41,641
so those of us who are in this generation,
1301
01:07:41,724 --> 01:07:44,269
you know, we are in a much
different place than Billy Tipton.
1302
01:07:44,352 --> 01:07:47,480
You know, we're-- we are--
we are public in a way that so many
1303
01:07:47,564 --> 01:07:49,399
trans people before us haven't been able to be
1304
01:07:49,482 --> 01:07:52,443
or have been able to be
but have died for being, you know?
1305
01:07:52,527 --> 01:07:56,030
And this is a really unique period of time,
1306
01:07:56,114 --> 01:07:58,157
and it's still not a time
where we get to have a-- a--
1307
01:07:58,241 --> 01:08:00,034
like, the lives that we should get to have.
1308
01:08:00,118 --> 01:08:02,912
We-- you know, and certainly,
those of us who are not white
1309
01:08:02,996 --> 01:08:04,789
and who are not passing
and all of-- you know,
1310
01:08:04,872 --> 01:08:07,250
all these other privileges
that I personally have, like,
1311
01:08:07,333 --> 01:08:12,463
there's so much we aren't able to experience
in-- in the full human spectrum,
1312
01:08:12,547 --> 01:08:15,550
the way to change that is for--
to shine a light back on cis people,
1313
01:08:15,633 --> 01:08:17,051
which is what my interest always is.
1314
01:08:17,135 --> 01:08:18,720
Why are you asking these questions?
1315
01:08:18,803 --> 01:08:21,723
Why are you so invested
in-- in-- in this story,
1316
01:08:21,806 --> 01:08:24,851
and is there a way we can
create a partnership where we can
1317
01:08:24,934 --> 01:08:27,061
talk about gender together, rather than,
1318
01:08:27,145 --> 01:08:31,357
you know, we are the metaphor
and you're the status quo?
1319
01:08:31,441 --> 01:08:34,068
-[Marquise] Creating your own
identity just for yourself,
1320
01:08:34,152 --> 01:08:36,779
to me, that's-- that's just
uniquely what transness is,
1321
01:08:36,863 --> 01:08:39,490
and it looks different for every single person.
1322
01:08:39,574 --> 01:08:42,869
There's no cookie-cutter,
one-size-fits-all to say that
1323
01:08:42,952 --> 01:08:45,496
"This is what is trans."
1324
01:08:45,580 --> 01:08:47,915
I know it's probably frustrating
to folks in the community too
1325
01:08:47,999 --> 01:08:51,919
who want to pin-point it and identify it,
but I just don't believe that that is possible.
1326
01:08:52,003 --> 01:08:54,505
I don't think that's ever
gonna be possible to do.
1327
01:08:55,632 --> 01:08:57,550
It's part of the problem in the first place.
1328
01:08:57,634 --> 01:09:01,763
Human experience is just way,
way more limitless than that.
1329
01:09:01,846 --> 01:09:05,767
It's impossible to be 100 percent anything.
1330
01:09:07,935 --> 01:09:10,521
-[Chase] If you could sit down
and be in conversation with
1331
01:09:10,605 --> 01:09:13,733
Billy Tipton right now, what
kind of questions would ask him?
1332
01:09:13,816 --> 01:09:16,611
If you could have a conversation
with Billy or ask him questions,
1333
01:09:16,694 --> 01:09:18,946
what would you talk about
or what would those questions be?
1334
01:09:19,030 --> 01:09:20,156
-Hm.
1335
01:09:23,826 --> 01:09:25,119
I mean...
1336
01:09:26,329 --> 01:09:31,209
if I could have a conversation with Billy,
like, I-- I'm-- I would really...
1337
01:09:31,292 --> 01:09:34,962
I don't think I would ask him anything
about his gender identity or, you know.
1338
01:09:35,046 --> 01:09:36,422
I would be curious about making music.
1339
01:09:36,506 --> 01:09:37,590
Like, what drew him to it?
1340
01:09:37,674 --> 01:09:40,843
You know, I-- like, what excites him about it?
1341
01:09:40,927 --> 01:09:43,680
Um, and I would definitely want to,
like, get confirmation,
1342
01:09:43,763 --> 01:09:45,473
which I think would be for-- very much there,
1343
01:09:45,556 --> 01:09:49,310
that, like, you know, he was a man
and he also liked making music,
1344
01:09:49,394 --> 01:09:50,937
and those things were not actually interrelated.
1345
01:09:51,020 --> 01:09:53,773
I mean, maybe that helped him
get an audition once to wear,
1346
01:09:53,856 --> 01:09:54,816
you know, men's clothes or whatever,
1347
01:09:54,899 --> 01:09:57,235
but I'm positive that somebody
doesn't live a whole life,
1348
01:09:57,318 --> 01:10:01,739
um, you know, and sacrifice everything
just to be able to play the piano,
1349
01:10:01,823 --> 01:10:03,991
as much as you might love playing the piano.
1350
01:10:04,075 --> 01:10:08,287
- I would just, like,
want to sit at Billy Tipton's feet
1351
01:10:08,371 --> 01:10:11,791
and ask stories about all those, like, old-time,
1352
01:10:11,874 --> 01:10:16,629
you know, jazz musicians that he
would've known and played with.
1353
01:10:16,713 --> 01:10:19,590
I would just be really fascinated as a Okie.
1354
01:10:19,674 --> 01:10:20,633
-Oh.
1355
01:10:20,717 --> 01:10:23,386
I mean, I would need
to know all the tea about, like,
1356
01:10:23,469 --> 01:10:25,638
what people did after the show was over.
1357
01:10:25,722 --> 01:10:27,181
I would just be, like, "Please tell me."
1358
01:10:27,265 --> 01:10:29,809
I know the stories would be overflowing.
1359
01:10:29,892 --> 01:10:32,186
-We would also probably talk about Buck,
1360
01:10:32,270 --> 01:10:35,189
um, and their relationship, their friendship,
"cause I just wanna know more.
1361
01:10:35,273 --> 01:10:38,067
Like, did he have-- was Buck a friend?
1362
01:10:38,151 --> 01:10:39,402
Or a frenemy?
1363
01:10:39,485 --> 01:10:42,822
- I think Billy Tipton was so ahead of his years.
1364
01:10:44,115 --> 01:10:49,912
To be bold enough and brave enough
to hide in plain sight,
1365
01:10:49,996 --> 01:10:53,583
to-- to totally have
a spotlight on him in many ways
1366
01:10:53,666 --> 01:10:58,880
and fulfill the dream of--
of being in the arts, in-- in music.
1367
01:10:59,964 --> 01:11:01,924
Like, doing that thing that way.
1368
01:11:02,008 --> 01:11:06,512
I'd be very curious did he ever
imagine the world being this way?
1369
01:11:06,971 --> 01:11:09,432
-Oh, if I could be at this booth,
1370
01:11:09,515 --> 01:11:13,102
in this club, sitting here with Billy,
1371
01:11:13,186 --> 01:11:15,229
I'd want to talk about performing.
1372
01:11:15,313 --> 01:11:20,943
Where were you when it happened
that you knew you could do that for people?
1373
01:11:21,027 --> 01:11:24,947
What was your favorite moments of that power?
1374
01:11:25,198 --> 01:11:27,200
-I'd have to ask Billy...
1375
01:11:28,618 --> 01:11:30,953
what's your great joy?
1376
01:11:31,037 --> 01:11:35,333
And... depending on what his answer was,
1377
01:11:35,416 --> 01:11:40,379
I would say
"How does gender relate to that to you?"
1378
01:11:41,464 --> 01:11:48,137
I'd like to know where his neither/nor place was.
1379
01:11:48,221 --> 01:11:52,308
Where's the place
where it doesn't fucking matter?
1380
01:11:52,975 --> 01:11:56,312
- I would just say,
"If you want, we can just sit here.
1381
01:11:56,395 --> 01:11:59,565
That's it."
And then maybe we would have, uh,
1382
01:11:59,649 --> 01:12:03,069
a hot chocolate and just sit around
and just-- just-- I would be there.
1383
01:12:03,152 --> 01:12:05,571
I would-- maybe, what I would hope is that he--
1384
01:12:05,655 --> 01:12:08,157
I would let him know
that he could ask me questions.
1385
01:12:08,241 --> 01:12:11,118
And I have a bunch of answers
to those questions that he might have,
1386
01:12:11,202 --> 01:12:13,538
and I could-- I hope that I could--
if he asked me questions,
1387
01:12:13,621 --> 01:12:18,543
I could help him out in some way
or make him feel a little bit better.
1388
01:12:18,626 --> 01:12:21,128
I could tell him about
testosterone if he wanted it,
1389
01:12:21,212 --> 01:12:23,089
or I could tell him about
some doctors who would be safe.
1390
01:12:23,172 --> 01:12:25,174
No one would have to know
that he was talking to me.
1391
01:12:25,258 --> 01:12:28,386
Like, it could be a private conversation
that nobody even knows about.
1392
01:12:28,469 --> 01:12:32,223
But I would hope that I could--
I could give him answers to his questions.
1393
01:12:33,474 --> 01:12:34,642
-Hm.
1394
01:12:35,393 --> 01:12:36,686
Interesting.
1395
01:12:40,648 --> 01:12:42,733
Um, it kind of blows me away that,
1396
01:12:42,817 --> 01:12:47,029
you know, after all these years,
anybody even remembers him, you know?
1397
01:12:50,908 --> 01:12:54,328
-[Scott] I think for all of us,
there's this need to be seen.
1398
01:12:54,412 --> 01:12:56,831
It's from the very beginning
when we know who we are
1399
01:12:56,914 --> 01:13:01,919
and we say, you know, "Mommy, I'm a boy,"
and we get shut-down or not.
1400
01:13:02,003 --> 01:13:07,258
I think that so much of my
not being seen as a small person
1401
01:13:07,341 --> 01:13:11,846
has led me to this role of somebody
who desperately wants to be seen,
1402
01:13:11,929 --> 01:13:16,058
uh, as a-- as an adult, right?
As an-- as an artist.
1403
01:13:16,225 --> 01:13:18,060
-Trans bodies have always existed,
1404
01:13:18,144 --> 01:13:20,354
and the way in which they've
been understood by culture,
1405
01:13:20,438 --> 01:13:22,732
you know, is so much more
about culture than it is about
1406
01:13:22,815 --> 01:13:24,358
the individual people telling the stories,
1407
01:13:24,442 --> 01:13:28,321
and so I sort of default now
to the individual telling the story
1408
01:13:28,404 --> 01:13:30,740
or the source materials
or documents that tell us,
1409
01:13:30,823 --> 01:13:32,783
like, who this person saw themselves as.
1410
01:13:32,867 --> 01:13:35,703
-If you exist in the present only --
and this is one of the big problems
1411
01:13:35,786 --> 01:13:38,331
for marginalized people
whose history are-- are-- are erased --
1412
01:13:38,414 --> 01:13:41,584
they might say, "Oh, well, you exist now.
1413
01:13:41,667 --> 01:13:43,252
But you don't exist in the past.�
1414
01:13:43,336 --> 01:13:46,047
So you only get to be in the present,
which means you get no tradition,
1415
01:13:46,130 --> 01:13:49,467
you get no roots, which means
this place doesn't belong to you.
1416
01:13:49,550 --> 01:13:51,594
This place -- whatever place--
1417
01:13:51,677 --> 01:13:53,638
Whoever is watching the documentary
is gonna be in a place,
1418
01:13:53,721 --> 01:13:57,975
and that place where they're at,
that place was built by queer people,
1419
01:13:58,059 --> 01:14:00,686
by trans people, by women,
1420
01:14:00,770 --> 01:14:02,605
by people of color...
1421
01:14:02,688 --> 01:14:04,523
They built that place.
1422
01:14:04,607 --> 01:14:07,360
They built the roads, they built the culture,
1423
01:14:07,443 --> 01:14:11,697
they created the music, the fashion,
the clothes, in the past to today.
1424
01:14:11,781 --> 01:14:15,868
But if we erase that history,
then you think that you have no--
1425
01:14:15,952 --> 01:14:20,206
No ground to stand on,
that you are rootless and homeless,
1426
01:14:20,289 --> 01:14:24,418
and that you are only here
as a guest in a place that is not your own.
1427
01:14:24,502 --> 01:14:27,296
But this is our place as well.
1428
01:14:27,797 --> 01:14:32,760
#Gentle uplifting music'
1429
01:14:39,475 --> 01:14:40,726
-[Jamison] Hello.
-[Billy Jr.] How are you?
1430
01:14:40,810 --> 01:14:41,602
-Billy--
-Great.
1431
01:14:41,686 --> 01:14:42,645
-Jamison.
1432
01:14:42,728 --> 01:14:44,730
-[Billy Jr.] Welcome to my home.
-Yeah.
1433
01:14:44,814 --> 01:14:46,941
-[Chase] Did you just
recognize that off the top of...?
1434
01:14:47,024 --> 01:14:48,317
-Well, he saw my hat, and he goes--
1435
01:14:48,401 --> 01:14:53,280
-I saw his hat, and I said, "Well,
Billy's got a, um, you know, cap just like that."
1436
01:14:53,364 --> 01:14:54,699
-[Chase] Yeah.
-Mm-hm.
1437
01:14:54,782 --> 01:14:58,577
-Yeah, that is so, so interesting
that it's the same maker.
1438
01:14:58,661 --> 01:15:00,079
-Yeah.
-I mean, you know...
1439
01:15:00,162 --> 01:15:01,288
Almost the same kind of hat.
1440
01:15:01,372 --> 01:15:03,874
-What-- yeah, it's the same--
generally the same same design.
1441
01:15:03,958 --> 01:15:05,960
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah, same [inaudible], yeah.
1442
01:15:06,043 --> 01:15:07,086
-That's such a trip.
1443
01:15:07,169 --> 01:15:08,921
-[Billy Jr.] That is-- that is really, yeah.
1444
01:15:09,005 --> 01:15:10,297
-[laughs]
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah.
1445
01:15:10,381 --> 01:15:12,717
This is a photo of him with the fedora.
1446
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:14,510
-[Jamison] Yeah.
-[Billy Jr.] You know.
1447
01:15:14,593 --> 01:15:17,304
-[Jamison] Yeah, I've seen this photo.
This is in 'Suits Me,' right?
1448
01:15:17,388 --> 01:15:18,764
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah, mm-hm.
-[Jamison] Yeah.
1449
01:15:18,848 --> 01:15:19,974
-[Billy Jr.] Yeah.
1450
01:15:21,017 --> 01:15:24,103
- I wonder if I could ask you
to introduce what this is.
1451
01:15:24,186 --> 01:15:25,312
-Okay, sure.
1452
01:15:26,230 --> 01:15:27,273
This is the real photo.
1453
01:15:27,356 --> 01:15:29,316
-[Chase] This is one of my favorite...
1454
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,529
-So this issue number seven
of 'FTM,' which is the newsletter
1455
01:15:33,612 --> 01:15:37,366
for the female-to-male support group--
1456
01:15:37,450 --> 01:15:42,163
-Oh, really?
-That a guy named Lou Sullivan was producing,
1457
01:15:42,246 --> 01:15:47,752
and, uh, he was struck by
Billy's story and so he says...
1458
01:15:49,420 --> 01:15:52,923
"Tipton lived in a time when
there were no gender counselors,
1459
01:15:53,007 --> 01:15:55,301
no doctors to prescribe hormones,
1460
01:15:55,384 --> 01:15:58,971
no surgeons to perform chest or genital surgery.
1461
01:15:59,055 --> 01:16:03,559
If you wanted to live as a man,
you just had to make do with what you had.
1462
01:16:03,642 --> 01:16:05,311
Tipton did it on his own.
1463
01:16:05,394 --> 01:16:09,940
At age 74, he died as one of our grandfathers.
1464
01:16:10,024 --> 01:16:13,152
Men like Billy proved that we, as FTMs,
1465
01:16:13,235 --> 01:16:16,030
are not a bizarre recent phenomenon;
1466
01:16:16,113 --> 01:16:20,159
that throughout history,
there have been females who knew deep down
1467
01:16:20,242 --> 01:16:23,662
that they were men
and did whatever they had to do
1468
01:16:23,746 --> 01:16:25,539
to live their lives honestly."
1469
01:16:25,623 --> 01:16:27,833
-Mm-hm.
-"Our hats off to Billy Tipton."
1470
01:16:27,917 --> 01:16:30,169
-Oh, wow. That's really-- that's really nice.
1471
01:16:30,252 --> 01:16:31,337
-Yeah.
1472
01:16:32,463 --> 01:16:35,549
-It's really great to talk to people
that actually like what he did.
1473
01:16:35,633 --> 01:16:38,219
-[Jamison] Yeah.
-And I've never-- until now, I have never,
1474
01:16:38,302 --> 01:16:40,846
ever known anything about that.
1475
01:16:40,930 --> 01:16:42,807
I thought I was, like, totally alone in this.
1476
01:16:42,890 --> 01:16:44,767
-[Jamison] Mm-hm, nope.
1477
01:16:44,850 --> 01:16:49,021
Hardly anybody is ever
really alone in this world.
1478
01:16:49,105 --> 01:16:51,440
No matter how strange things are,
1479
01:16:51,524 --> 01:16:55,861
there's gonna be somebody
who understands the experience.
1480
01:16:57,279 --> 01:16:59,198
-It's all hit-- hitting me, you know.
1481
01:16:59,281 --> 01:17:00,658
-Yeah.
-How [inaudible].
1482
01:17:00,741 --> 01:17:02,243
-Yeah.
1483
01:17:02,326 --> 01:17:07,414
-There will always be resistance
to our identities because we
1484
01:17:07,498 --> 01:17:13,671
really threaten the structures of patriarchy,
1485
01:17:13,754 --> 01:17:18,843
which is essentially the structure of society.
1486
01:17:18,926 --> 01:17:23,597
Like, you know,
the whole world revolves around...
1487
01:17:24,515 --> 01:17:25,724
a penis.
1488
01:17:26,183 --> 01:17:28,727
-When you present
a trans masculine person as a--
1489
01:17:28,811 --> 01:17:32,231
An object of desire for
people of maybe all genders,
1490
01:17:32,314 --> 01:17:34,859
um, but certainly
an object of desire for women,
1491
01:17:34,942 --> 01:17:40,239
I think you are undermining this sort of idea
of, like, you know, only certain kinds of men,
1492
01:17:40,322 --> 01:17:43,492
you know, have-- have that kind
of status of being desirable in that way.
1493
01:17:43,576 --> 01:17:48,247
And that-- and that isn't just about,
then, sexuality and-- and, um, and sexiness,
1494
01:17:48,330 --> 01:17:51,292
that's about saying, like, "Trans men are men."
1495
01:17:51,375 --> 01:17:56,255
And that's a really big threat, I think,
to-- to folks who wish we didn't exist.
1496
01:17:56,338 --> 01:17:59,967
-It's an assumption that
you don't come from trans experience
1497
01:18:00,050 --> 01:18:03,304
and passing is somehow about fooling.
1498
01:18:04,555 --> 01:18:07,266
You know, "trying to pass." Pass as what?
1499
01:18:07,349 --> 01:18:08,726
Regular?
1500
01:18:08,809 --> 01:18:10,644
I don't wanna fuckin' be regular.
1501
01:18:11,353 --> 01:18:15,065
-One of my favorite passages
in Lou's journals is he was,
1502
01:18:15,149 --> 01:18:18,903
you know, like 13 or 14 years old and he said,
1503
01:18:18,986 --> 01:18:24,241
"I'm not sure what somebody like me looks like.
1504
01:18:25,117 --> 01:18:28,913
But when people look at me, I want them to say,
1505
01:18:28,996 --> 01:18:33,459
'There's one of those people who
has their own interpretation of happiness.
1506
01:18:33,542 --> 01:18:37,922
It's not a question about passing, you know,
1507
01:18:38,005 --> 01:18:42,676
and that it's not about transition
from man to woman or woman to man,
1508
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,721
it's a transition story about
somebody who's unhappy
1509
01:18:45,804 --> 01:18:48,724
about something in their life
and they figure out the way to make
1510
01:18:48,807 --> 01:18:51,894
themselves happy,
and sometimes it involves gender
1511
01:18:51,977 --> 01:18:53,145
and sometimes it doesn't.
1512
01:18:53,229 --> 01:18:58,317
It's like, are you being your own
interpretation of happiness, yes, no?
1513
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:00,986
You know?
And I'm always gonna be on "yes," you know?
1514
01:19:01,070 --> 01:19:02,529
Whatever that is.
1515
01:19:02,613 --> 01:19:04,949
And if you're not being your own
interpretation of happiness,
1516
01:19:05,032 --> 01:19:06,450
it's like, why aren't you?
1517
01:19:06,533 --> 01:19:07,993
You know? That's on you.
1518
01:19:08,661 --> 01:19:13,582
#Delicate jazz/
1519
01:19:13,666 --> 01:19:15,918
-[Billy on recording]
The Little Pinto's running fine.
1520
01:19:17,419 --> 01:19:21,715
And I think we've had a
little problem with the, uh, heater.
1521
01:19:21,799 --> 01:19:23,384
So we have to straighten that out,
1522
01:19:23,467 --> 01:19:27,513
but outside of that, it's got its little snow tires on
and it's running real good.
1523
01:19:27,596 --> 01:19:31,976
Of course, the old Barracuda is forever amber,
I guess; she just keeps going.
1524
01:19:33,018 --> 01:19:35,896
And Kiki's fine, the dogs are fine.
1525
01:19:37,356 --> 01:19:40,317
And everything seems to be
going pretty well in the house.
1526
01:19:40,401 --> 01:19:43,237
We've been very, very lucky;
God's been awful good to us.
1527
01:19:45,698 --> 01:19:49,660
So, I'll sign off for right now, and Mommy'll
1528
01:19:49,743 --> 01:19:51,662
have some of the boys talk to you.
1529
01:19:53,664 --> 01:19:57,501
But let me say we love ya and
sure wish you were here with us.
1530
01:19:58,836 --> 01:20:00,337
Okay, light up the cigarettes!
1531
01:20:00,421 --> 01:20:02,172
Everybody have a go at it again!
1532
01:20:02,256 --> 01:20:04,174
-[Kitty on recording] All right,
are you two gonna sing together?
1533
01:20:06,051 --> 01:20:07,469
Are you gonna sing together?
1534
01:20:08,095 --> 01:20:13,058
###
1535
01:20:58,312 --> 01:21:03,275
#delicate emotional music#
1536
01:21:07,363 --> 01:21:12,326
#I knew a boy who was swallowed by the sky#
1537
01:21:14,703 --> 01:21:17,956
#By the flashing lights#
1538
01:21:19,416 --> 01:21:24,380
#I knew a man
who got lost in the deep dark blue#
1539
01:21:26,715 --> 01:21:29,760
#And came out alive#
1540
01:21:31,553 --> 01:21:36,517
#I knew a boy, I knew a man
who looked a lot like you#
1541
01:21:39,770 --> 01:21:44,358
#I knew a time you could stand still beside#
1542
01:21:47,152 --> 01:21:49,988
# Never rushing by #
1543
01:21:51,782 --> 01:21:57,621
#I knew a place you could go
when you had to explode#
1544
01:21:59,039 --> 01:22:01,917
#Into peace of mind#
1545
01:22:03,752 --> 01:22:08,549
#I knew a time, I knew a place
that felt a lot like you#
1546
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:15,722
#I knew a boy, I knew a man who looked a lot...#
1547
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,643
#A lot like you#
1548
01:22:22,855 --> 01:22:25,524
#Oooh#
1549
01:22:28,819 --> 01:22:31,947
#Oooh#
1550
01:22:34,408 --> 01:22:37,786
#Ahhh#
1551
01:22:37,870 --> 01:22:40,956
#A lot like you#
1552
01:22:42,791 --> 01:22:47,379
#Whoaaa#
1553
01:22:51,008 --> 01:22:55,971
#Ohhh, I knew a man who looked a lot like you#
1554
01:23:07,316 --> 01:23:12,196
#I knew a friend
who could hold onto the flames#
1555
01:23:14,072 --> 01:23:17,576
#Keep them from burning you#
1556
01:23:19,453 --> 01:23:25,584
#I knew a smile you could see
through all of the stones#
1557
01:23:26,543 --> 01:23:29,671
#That the war had thrown#
1558
01:23:31,548 --> 01:23:33,800
#I knew a smile, I knew a friend#
1559
01:23:33,884 --> 01:23:36,428
#Who looked a lot like you#
1560
01:23:39,681 --> 01:23:43,685
#I knew a boy, I knew a man who looked a lot...#
1561
01:23:44,353 --> 01:23:47,606
#A lot like you#
1562
01:23:50,484 --> 01:23:54,613
#Oooh#
1563
01:23:56,490 --> 01:24:00,285
#Ahhh#
131731
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