All language subtitles for Crazy.Not.Insane.2020.720p.WEBRip.x264.AAC-[YTS.MX]

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(footsteps)

(copying)

(printing)

(tapping paper)

(keys jingling)

Okay.

Here are the two copies, Mom.

-Dorothy Lewis: Okay.
And again, by the way...
-I'm ready.

feel free to say yuck.

But, you know,
feel free to say, "Mom,

don't say that," okay? Okay.

That Joseph Paul Franklin
was crazy,

there could be
little doubt.

"The New York Times"
called me "The Slayer."

I like the word, you know,
the term "multiple slayer"

better than
"serial killer" anyway.

You know what I'm saying?

-Dorothy: Got it? Okay.
-Eric Lewis: Mm-hmm.

Dorothy:
No, not 'cause
he hated Jews.

Lots of ostensibly
sane people hate Jews.

Bigotry and insanity
are different.

-(projector clicking)
-At least my mother
thought so.

-Wait, can you hold on
one sec? (muttering)
-Yeah, do you see that?

-Then it goes from
there to my mother...
-My mother seemed to know

the names of every
anti-Semite alive and dead.

Henry Ford, Richard Wagner,

Joe Kennedy,
even Walt Disney.

And then I have in quotes,
"Not Walt Disney, Mom!"

-Unquote, okay?
Close quote.
-Eric: Mm-hmm.

Dorothy:
"Yes, Walt Disney,"
she declared.

Still, she took me
to see "Bambi"
and I cried and cried.

Now, it goes up to the upper
left-hand corner, okay?

Dot-dot, got it? (laughs)

The memories that
come back to me

when I'm, you know,
when I'm writing.

They're-- they have nothing
to do with the case,

but it's sort of fun. Okay,

now we're going back to,
"As I write this,

I ask myself why I agreed
to examine Mr. Franklin."

How are you supposed to act
if you've killed people?

You know?
You're supposed to have blood
dripping from your mouth

and all that? Fangs?

Dorothy:
How could I be certain that
I would not be prejudiced?

Looking back in time,
I think examining
Mr. Franklin

was as close as
I would ever come
to examining Hitler.

Hitler has always
been a mystery.

A man responsible for
the deaths of so many,

but someone who,
to the best of my
knowledge,

never personally
killed anyone.

My regret is that
nobody had the chance
to study him,

to find out what
made him tick.

How did he get that way?

Could I get that way?
Could anyone?

♪ ♪

I look back on the many
killers I have come to know

over the past four decades.

There are diagnoses
I make now

that I didn't
even know existed

because of my own
ignorance, comma,

because I didn't ask
the right questions.

(laughs)
It's nice to be able
to correct one's mistakes.

More often, we probably
don't even know
when we make them.

Man:
Doctor, looking at
the evidence in this case,

are you able to tell us
whether the defendant

(echoing):
is insane or not?

♪ ♪

(newsreel music)

Dorothy:
When I was very little,

I remember reading about
the Nuremberg Trials.

Newsreel Narrator:
In Berlin, the defendants

are to plead guilty

-or not guilty...
-Dorothy:
Lying on the carpet.

We lived in New York,
in an apartment,

and the newspaper
in front of me,

and seeing pictures of
Goebbels and Göring.

Judge:
Defendant Hermann
Wilhelm Göring,

the International
Military Tribunal

sentences you to
death by hanging.

Dorothy:
I was aware that

people were deliberately
killing other people.

And I was aware

of my own anger
and my own aggression.

And I remember thinking,

how come I don't kill?

How come, when I get
so angry, I don't kill?

It's fascinated me.

I've been horrified
by the fact that

I think any one of us,
myself included,

could become a Nazi.

♪ ♪

Maybe I went to
medical school
or became a psychiatrist,

in part,
to learn about why.

(bell chiming)

Don't you ever wonder
why you don't murder?

-Alex Gibney: I do.
-Yeah.

I never planned to work
with violent people,

certainly not murderers.

Dorothy and Narrator:
I went through
medical school

in order to become
a psychoanalyst.

I saw myself in
a private office,

seated behind
a supine patient...

Narrator:
listening and commenting
as he struggled

to resolve the violent
internal conflicts

between his id
and his superego.

Instead, a series
of unexpected events

drew me deeper and deeper
into the study of violence.

In the early '70s,
I was working at

the Juvenile Court Clinic
in New Haven,

examining delinquents.
Most of the delinquents

who crossed the threshold
of my office

had horrendous
backgrounds--

car accidents,
falls, burns,

even carbon monoxide
poisoning.

A good number
of the injuries

were not caused by
reckless drivers,

broken tree branches,
or overturned coffee pots.

They were
caused by parents.

♪ ♪

Gradually,
I was gathering clues.

I was discovering why
one person cried in pain,

while another lashed
out in response to it.

(siren wailing)

I managed to get
a small grant to study
the prisoners on

the Bellevue
Forensic Wards.

I examined
Mark David Chapman,

the man who shot
John Lennon.

We also saw a less famous,
but more flamboyant inmate,

who cut off his
father's head and penis,

and chucked both
out the window.

It was a...
colorful period.

(hospital chatter)

Gibney:
So how'd you first start
working with Dorothy?

By accident, yeah. So,

I saw this ad for
a research assistant.

"Juvenile delinquents,"
is what the ad says.

A grant to do a project

having to do with delinquency.

It happened to be Dorothy.

I happened to say,
you know,
I'll give it a shot.

We hit it off,
and it started everything.

Dorothy:
We became a bit of a team,
working together.

And we saw so many
children at Bellevue.

Narrator: A study
of the patients on our
children's psychiatric ward

revealed that
of 55 children
admitted in one year,

21 had been homicidal.

One child was admitted
after trying to
strangle her sister.

Another set fire
to the couch on which
his mother slept.

A 4-year-old held a knife
to his mother's throat.

-(flames burning)
-(children chattering)

We tried to look
at the variables.

Was there any difference between

the homicidal young children,

and the ones who were on

the psychiatric ward,
but had not been homicidal.

And we found that

the homicidal kids
were much more likely

to have been abused,

and they were
much more likely

to have signs of
organic impairment,

brain dysfunction.

Jonathan Pincus:
I was an ambitious academic
neurologist at the time,

on the faculty at Yale.

I thought that there was nothing

neurologically wrong
with violent people.

She convinced me to
participate in the study.

What's the relationship
between

the brain damage
and the behavior?

Dorothy:
What we saw was if you
have battered a child,

shaken it,
knocked it
against the wall,

then you could often
see little hemorrhages
in the brain.

Sometimes,
that distinguished

the super-aggressive kids

from the
psychiatrically ill
but not aggressive kids.

♪ ♪

I had written an article
in a psychiatric journal,

and Diane Sawyer,
her assistants had read it,

and they called me
and she wanted
to interview me.

We're going to take a closer
look at violent children,

-teenagers or...
-Dorothy:
It's the first time

I'd ever been
on television.

Diane Sawyer:
Dr. Lewis, thank you very
much for coming this morning.

It's a fascinating study,
and a pioneering one,

as I understand it.

We did a study of
the medical histories

from hospital records...

Dorothy:
I talked about
the brain dysfunction

and the history of
abuse that a lot of

-the violent kids had.
-46% had major
neurological problems...

Either that day or
the next day, I got a call

from Dick Burr,
just an incredible
public defender

and he said, "I saw you
on the news yesterday."

Dick Burr:
She was talking about how

you can't begin to
evaluate somebody

who's committed a violent
crime unless you have

a really thorough
and complete life history.

-Here's a family history...
-Burr: And at that point

in the death penalty
defense community,

we had always thought
mental health
was important,

but we didn't
understand it.

Dorothy:
He said, "I have a client

on death row
here in Florida."

Burr:
We had a case,
William Elledge...

♪ ♪

that I was the primary
lawyer on,

moving into the state
post-conviction process.

Dorothy:
"Would you be willing to
come down to death row

and examine him?"

Burr:
And she came and helped us
and taught us. (laughs)

-(prison chatter)
-Dorothy: Sure enough,

the guy had
brain dysfunction

and a history
of hideous abuse.

A few weeks later,
I saw I got a call again.

"We have another guy."

His name was Nollie Martin.

Apparently, someone had run
over his head with a car,

and there was
a dent in his head.

So, I wrote it up.

A colleague of mine
said to me,

"Dorothy,
think of it this way.

"If you put your
finger in a haystack

"and you get tapped
by a needle,
that's by chance.

"But if you put
your finger in the haystack
a second time,

and again you're stuck
by a needle," he said,

"there are a lot
of needles there."

Burr:
When a murder happens,
you wonder why.

I've always been of the view
that there are some reasons

that they happen.
Not because people

are inherently bad or evil.

I don't believe in evil.
(laughs)

Anybody who pulls a trigger and
squeezes a life out of somebody

for the calculated reason
of starting a race war

where other people
would be killed is evil.

Well, evil is
a religious concept.

It's not a scientific concept.

And what society wants to do

with a person like
that is up to society.

But, it at least helps
to know what motivates

a serial killer
or what motivates a...

-Right, hatred. That's
what's motivating it.
-Well, it's more than that.

There's much more than that.

Burr:
You know, we all sort
of just saw the light,

and began to realize from
working with Dorothy that

we had to get a lot
more information
about people's lives.

Yeager:
We had defense attorneys

from different parts of
the country start to call us

as a team to see
their tough cases.

These tended not to be
open-and-shut cases

of people doing
violent things.
These were puzzles.

I have now seen
22 serial killers.

A lot of other
plain-old killers,

(chuckle) but 22 serial killers.

And what we tend to find is

when you couple
either a predisposition
to psychosis

and/or some kind of
brain dysfunction,

with a history of horrible
early ongoing abuse,

you get a
super-dangerous person.

And what is fascinating
is you can find

what were the social,
the psychological,

the biological forces that
came together to create

this murderous human being.

It's like being a detective,
which I love.

I truly love it.

(birds chirping)

(coffee machine humming)

-(cafe chatter)
-Dorothy: Thanks so much.

-Thank you. Yeah.
-Barista: You're welcome.

(cars honking)

(elevator bell dings)

Teacher:
The only way to approach
a drawing is to feel free.

If you have that
freedom in you,

it's gonna show
in your drawing.

As long as we keep in mind,

stepping back, looking
at what we're doing,

and then going back
and making changes.

Changes are very important.

I always say
to the students,

remember those first
drawings you were doing,

and then you were
unhappy with them?

Those drawings
allows you actually

to do what you have
been doing now.

And so, that's why I always
talk about the process

and making changes
all the time...

♪ ♪

Dorothy:
Any case I've worked on,

I came as a blank slate,

and saw whatever I saw.

Over time, the complete
picture came to light.

Early in my career,
I evaluated a woman,

Marie Moore.

She lived in an apartment
with her 14-year-old
daughter,

and her daughter's
boyfriend.

The boyfriend was

a particularly sadistic
kind of person.

-(woman giggling)
-Somehow, Marie got

sexually involved
with the boyfriend.

And a girlfriend of
her daughter came over,

-and Marie
and the boyfriend
-(door creaking)

-took her captive.
-(shuts)

They kept her naked,
just in diapers.

-(cuffs click)
-They handcuffed her

and toe-cuffed
her to the floor.

They shoved things
into every orifice

that a person has.

And then, one day,
the 14-year-old boy

dragged her over
to the bathroom

and knocked her head

-(thud)
-against the tub
and killed her.

(dripping)

The body was discovered
and they were arrested.

(police siren, radio chatter)

The boy ratted on Marie.

It was the boy who had
actually killed her,

but, being a juvenile,
he was offered a plea,

and Marie was tried

-for this murder.
-(phone ringing)

I got a call from
an attorney asking me

whether I would do
an evaluation of Marie.

The lawyer said
something to me about how

he thought she was a multiple.

Well, I had been trained
that there was no such thing.

♪ ♪

I went to see her,

and she reminded me of me.

I was wearing big glasses
and she was wearing
big glasses.

We were talking
and I asked her

had anyone ever
bothered her sexually,

and she said,

"No! No! No!

Absolutely not!"

I had been told that

people around her
said that she changed.

That sometimes,
her voice became gruff,

and she wanted
to be called Billy.

So I asked her about this,
and she said,

"Well, people tell me
that I get that way,

"that I become like a boy,

but I don't remember it.
I don't think so."

♪ ♪

It was getting
to be about 5:00,

and the investigator

stuck his head in the door,
and he said, you know,

"We have to go."
And I said, "Marie,

I have to stop now, but
I'll be back to see you."

And she said, "Don't go."

She said,
"There's something
I have to tell you."

In just that tone.
And so, I sat.

And, uh, sat.

And I said,
"You know, Marie,

I really have to go."

And then I gathered
up my papers,

and I turn my back
and put my hand

on the doorknob,
and I hear

behind me a voice
that said...

(gruffly):
"Don't go."

(laughs) You know,
the hairs on my arm stood up.

And I turned around
and I said...

"Billy?"
And he says...

(gruffly):
"Hello."

♪ ♪

I said, "Billy, how long
have you known Marie?"

And he said,
"I've known her
all her life."

I said to him,

"Did her father
ever bother her

in any way?"
And Billy said,

"Sure, he did.

"He used to put pencils

"in her vagina,
in her rectum.

"When she was 12 years old,
he went to bed with her

and he had sex with her."

And I said, "Billy,

I really need to
talk to Marie again."

But Billy said,

"I could kill her.

"I could make her
take pills.

I could make her
hang herself."

That turned out to be
the very first multiple that--

Not the first I've ever seen.

The first that
I ever knew I saw.

♪ ♪

I had her have
psychological testing.

And on the Rorschach test,

which is a projective test,

you look at inkblots
and see what people see,

and there are certain
normal responses

and certain psychotic
kinds of responses.

And Billy's test results
were

as psychotic as they come,

and Marie had absolutely

the most normal Rorschach
that you would expect.

I'm fascinated by
how can there be such

different functioning
in the same brain?

My daughter Gillian says,

"Mom, you're
the only one who does

group therapy with one person."

♪ ♪

Narrator:
I would never again see
people as I had before.

My innocence,
which sprang
from ignorance,

would be stripped away,

and I would learn things
about human beings

that I'd not been taught
during my training
as a psychiatrist.

Things most of us
would rather not know.

Violent alternate
personalities

are usually
caricatures of evil,

created in the minds
of tormented children

to take their pain
and defend them

against real
or imagined enemies.

They embody the strength,
courage, and wiliness

needed for a tortured
child to survive.

Though some mental
health experts say

Multiple Personality Disorder
doesn't exist,

the American Psychiatric
Association says it does,

calling it Dissociative
Identity Disorder,

and adding, in most
cases, it involves

severe abuse or trauma
in childhood.

Parts of the mind splitting
from each other...

Dorothy:
Before Freud, people
like Janet talked about

consciousness at many
different levels,

like streams running
parallel to each other.

♪ ♪

Haven't you ever driven
and been kind of

into your own thoughts
and you pass the exit

that you meant
to get off at

'cause you were really
thinking about
something else?

-We all, from time
to time, dissociate.
-(fireworks popping)

It's a continuum.

There are degrees
all the way to where,

for a period of time,
the individual

truly believes himself
to be someone else.

At Bellevue, we ran
a clinic for children

with Dissociative
Identity Disorder,

and it became clear
that it starts

very, very, very early.

I worked with one child,
let's call her Nancy,

and she had an alter
named Amanda.

Uh...

Around 7 or 8.

-7 or 8? What did
you do for her?
-Mm-hmm.

-I talked to her.
-(clicks pen)

You talked to her?

-What about?
-(clicks pen)

What happened.

Dorothy:
Nancy was referred to me

by a social worker.

She had been abused
by a relative.

Dorothy:
I have videos of
Nancy going through

so many different
kinds of stages.

♪ ♪

Also, Nancy kept a diary.

Her different personas
had different handwriting.

Different spelling!

Narrator:
Alternate personalities
leave evidence

of their existence
all over the place.

Teacher reports,
social service records,

medical charts, journals,

diaries, drawings.

All are pieces
of the puzzle
that reveal the picture

of a divided,
often fragmented mind.

These constitute
the evidence needed to show

that Multiple Personality
Disorder existed

years before the diagnosis
was even considered.

They're proof that
the interviewer

did not create
the disorder.

(applause)

Gibney: So when you
start to present
some of your findings

-to other psychiatric
colleagues...
-Dorothy: Yeah.

...what was their reaction?
Was it welcoming?

Oh sure. (laughs) No.

If you were
an esteemed clinician,

researcher, psychologist,
psychiatrist,

you did not take that seriously.

That was a bogus diagnosis.

Dorothy:
I got ridiculed a lot

at Yale, where I showed

some of the most poignant
pictures of small children,

and you saw them switch,

and you could give
the history of what
had happened to them.

Even when they saw it right
in front of their faces,

the head of one of
the departments said,

"There must be
another explanation."

(laughs) And so I thought,

"Tell me what it is.
I'm open to that." But, uh,

so, there was...

Well, I think there
still is a skepticism.

♪ ♪

At Bellevue,
we had a lot of room

to spread out our data
and to videotape

and stuff like that
and then

they hired someone who was
very hostile to our work

and took away
all our space,
and, eventually, I left.

(machine humming)

(footsteps)

H, I, J...

These files are filled
with death row inmates,

or evaluations
that we've done

on murderers who
were going to trial.

(rattling)

There are also records
of what we discovered

and then what the law
was willing to accept.

♪ ♪

-(typing)
-(indistinct chatter)

Man 1:
She was just snatched
off the street...

Man 2: Found a body...

Man 3:
Possibility of
strangulation...

Man 4: You would not
be able to recognize
the face of the body.

Man 5:
Postmortem mutilation
of the victims...

Man 6:
It is one of the most
significant arrests...

Arthur J. Shawcross...

Served 15 years in prison for
the murder of two children.

1987, he was
released on parole.

Man 7:
He is a severely
emotionally disturbed man.

Woman:

Whether this defendant
was legally insane

is a question of fact
for you to decide.

Narrator:
Arthur Shawcross was
preparing to go to trial

in Rochester, New York.

Before I even laid
eyes on the defendant,

his lawyers had obtained
an MRI of his brain.

The MRI had shown
that at the very tip

of his right temporal lobe
was a small fluid cyst.

♪ ♪

The brain is
a very sensitive organ.

The tiniest scar
or tumor or cyst

can, under certain
circumstances,

trigger abnormal
electric activity

and seizures
associated with bizarre,

animalistic behaviors.

Here is the frontal lobe,

and the frontal
lobes restrain.

They're the part
that kind of says,

"Well, I might want
another piece of cake,

but I'm not gonna have it."

Or, "I might like
to rape this lady, but
maybe I can find some...

more appropriate
(laughs) whatever."

There's a deep part
of the brain called

the limbic system.

This limbic system
has to do with food,

with sex, with anger,

with you name it.

It's the very primitive
part of the brain.

There are a lot of connections
between the lobes

and the limbic system.

I think of it as
reins on a horse.

So, with Shawcross,

the cyst in his
temporal lobe

would excite
the limbic system,

and put it out of whack.

But then, Jonathan Pincus
said, "Dorothy,

what about the scars
in the frontal lobe?"

♪ ♪

And, you know, it's incredible.

The reins on the horse
had been cut,

and he was triggered.

If somebody said,
"I'll tell the police,"

or, "I'll tell
your mother."

That would snap him,
and he would kill.

-Dorothy: Do you know me?
No? I'm Dr. Lewis.
-No.

Would it be okay to talk
with you a little bit? Yeah?

I videotaped
Arthur Shawcross, yes.

Yeah. Oh, he was a character.

Dorothy:

And, you know...

(birds chirping,
animals calling)

I just...

Dorothy:
From day one, I said,

"I think he has
temporal lobe seizures

from everything
he told me."

The person may see
very bright lights,

the person may get nauseated,
the person...

may feel a headache
or dizzy,

followed by sleep.

Dorothy:
What would happen is
the girl would be in his car

or his van,

and he would kill her,

and he'd fall sound asleep.

And he'd wake up,

and it was kinda, "Oops.
I must've done it again."

Shawcross:

(police chatter)

Yeager:
Something that was telling
about how his brain worked

was we interviewed
the wife separately,

and she did not believe
he had done anything bad.

She saw him as
this loving man

who worked nights.
He was a cook
in a cafeteria.

And then he would be done
early in the morning,

and our best guess was if he
was gonna commit a murder,

it would be sometime
in the dark in
the middle of the night

or towards dawn.

And he would tell his wife,

"You know, there's
a serial murderer around.
Don't go out."

(laughs) So,
when she told us that,

you know, at that point,
we had an inkling

that there was
something not right.

Dorothy:

(in falsetto): Bessie.

Bessie!

(paper crinkling)

Narrator:
It became clear that
Arthur Shawcross experienced

dissociative states.

At these times, he would
hear his mother in his head,

berating him and the women
he was seeing.

No one was good enough
for Artie. They should die.

Dorothy:

-I hurt all of them.
-Dorothy: What?

(scoffs)

Dorothy:

Dorothy:
He lifted up his fist.

There was no way
that I could get out,

and I thought that he
was going to attack me.

Dorothy:
A knife?

(sighs)

Dorothy:

(sighs)

Dorothy:
Who are you cutting?

Dorothy:
One of his victims

had been sliced
from her neck

all the way down
to her pubic area.

-(police chatter)
-(siren)

Dorothy:

(in childish voice):

Dorothy:

(whimpers)

Where is she biting you, Art?

Art, Art, where is she--

Dorothy:

(whimpers)

Narrator:
I had no question
that Mr. Shawcross

had been severely abused.

School records
described his mother

as punishing and rejecting.

In grade school,
the young Arthur
cowered under radiators

-while the other
children sang songs.
-(distant singing)

Psychological tests revealed

a seriously disturbed child,

lost in a fantasy in
which he perceived himself

a new person.

(normal voice):

Opening arguments
began today

in the Shawcross murder trial,
and late this afternoon,

the first witnesses
were called to the stand.

Defense Attorney
Thomas Cocuzzi

contends that his
client's sanity

is in question.
Cocuzzi told jurors

that he will put
an expert psychiatrist,

Dr. Dorothy Lewis,
on the stand.

Thomas Cocuzzi:
And you're going to hear aspects

of his medical records
and his school records

and his prison records...

reflecting his behavior

not since his arrest,

but throughout his life.

-Gibney: You were
testifying for the defense.
-Yes, I was.

But what's
interesting with him--

Gibney:
To keep him from
being executed?

Well, not really
'cause it was New York,

and they don't execute
people in New York.

But the defense was arguing

he should be
in an institution,
not in prison.

And I had said
to the lawyers,

"We're gonna be
educating the public.

"Look, you can show
the jury pictures

"of the MRI.

"You can see the cyst.

"You can see the scars
in the frontal lobe.

Go with that."
And they didn't.

Instead, they ran with
the dissociative symptoms.

Dorothy (on video):

(in falsetto):

But that's a much tougher
diagnosis for a jury.

I mean, it, it
just seems so fantastic.

Dorothy (on video):

Dorothy: 11?

-Shawcross (on video):
-Dorothy (on video): No?

Narrator:
I had been tricked.

What about
the neurological findings?

By the time
I took the stand,

it was clear that
Shawcross' attorneys

were not going to
produce a neurologist.

Your Honor, I was lied to,
and therefore,

I cannot credibly testify

without clarifying
what I was told,

what I was told
was being done,

-and then what I...
-Burr: Dorothy had a hard
time on the witness stand.

She was always involved
in so many things.

She would come to
wherever the hearing was,

and she wouldn't have sort of

gathered her thoughts and,

you know, kinda
systematized her thinking.

Dorothy's not linear, um.

And that's part of her genius.

But it's also part of...

frustration in trying to,

to bring her into a system

that requires linearity,
like the legal system.

-(indistinct)
-Dorothy: Your Honor,
may I please request

a recess for 15 minutes

because I do not feel
prepared to go on right now.

Narrator:
I was repeatedly
chastised by the judge

for not responding
directly to questions
with a succinct

yes or no.

I looked clumsy
and disorganized.

This is not the way
psychiatry works.
It is not the way...

Narrator:
The prosecution hired
Park Dietz, one of the most

highly regarded forensic
psychiatrists in the nation,

a man who had been
a consultant
at the FBI and CIA.

He was a handsome,
confident man who
never appeared hassled.

It was very clear what was
happening on the videotapes,

that Dr. Lewis was inviting him

to play various performances.

She invited him
to play the role

of his mother,
even telling him that

he can take on the role of his
mother and talk like his mother,

and he even does it in
a falsetto voice.

Gibney:
Do you buy the whole idea of
Multiple Personality Disorder?

No. (laughs)
I think it's a hoax.

I think it is a sad fact

that people in my profession

were so eager
to find something

that they did a form
of interviewing

that can cause
vulnerable people

to believe they have more
than one personality.

Dorothy:

Dietz:
Dr. Lewis subjected
Shawcross

to a kind of a hypnosis
during part of her
interview.

Dorothy:

Dorothy: You don't like
to use hypnosis
if you can avoid it.

But it was early
in my career
at the Shawcross trial.

Hypnosis is questionable.

People who can be hypnotized
can also-- are very suggestible.

If you do use hypnosis,
you want to

confirm what was said,

either from other relatives,

friends, hospital records,
school records.

You just can't
believe everything.

Dietz:
During a hypnotic session,

he identified himself as
a 13th century cannibal.

Yeah?

Dorothy:

He exhibited none
of that with me.

Dietz:

Dietz:
He answered to his name,

as he had to everybody else
throughout his entire life,

except Dorothy Lewis.

And he understood how,
where, when, and why

he did every one
of those murders.

Any popular notion
that serial killers

are crazy people is just wrong.

We have no way to
know how many men

have as their favorite
sexual fantasy

strangling a woman to death

until her tongue
protrudes from her mouth

and you hear the last breath
leave her body.

But I bet it isn't related
only to those few men

who do that routinely.

Gibney:
This was a guy who did

some pretty grisly
things to his victims.

Well, he...

ate the vagina of one of them,

and, uh, you know,

I thought that was pretty
bizarre, and I've seen a lot.

Nobody with
a taste for that.

Dorothy:
On the stand,

Park Dietz said
he ate the vagina

to hide the DNA.

Surely, Doctor,
there must be an easier way

to get rid of
the evidence. (laughs)

♪ ♪

Dietz:
Ultimately,
it was my opinion

that Shawcross
was not insane

under the law, and that
he knew what he was doing,

knew it was wrong.

Gibney:
"What kind of sane person

would eat the vaginas
of his victims?"

I guess would be what
an average person
like me might say.

One has nothing
to do with the other.

Whether you are responsible
for a murder you did

is unrelated to whether
you once ate a raw rabbit

or a raw vagina.

Cold, calculating,

and remorseless.

For whom killing

was not an emotional
disturbance.

Yeager:
Siragusa was the prosecutor
on the case,

and he was running
for office.

And so, I think
she was the recipient

of his need to

show that he's
a tough guy on crime.

-And you said--
-Dorothy: Said that they
might've been caused...

-by a stroke.
-Excuse me, Doctor.
Can you answer--

Can you try, Doctor,
just to answer our question?

-Shh.
-Can you hear me, Doctor?

Yeager:
And he was gonna put her
into the mud because that

would help his cause,
and he did get elected.

I would never say anything

about Dr. Lewis other
than to comment that

I think her performance in
court speaks for itself.

You know, Dorothy paved the way

for a whole generation

of mental health professionals
who followed in her steps.

But she was a pioneer,
and pioneers are often...

you know, not treated well.

I think there was
an intuitive recognition

on the part of prosecutors, uh,

that what she had to say

bore heavily on the truth.

And the truth is not

what some prosecutors wanted.

She swallowed
the stories he told
hook, line, and sinker.

Gibney:
So when you were
on the stand,

the attorney
on the other side,
the prosecuting attorney

-was making fun of you
for thinking that there was
-Yes.

-such a thing
as multiple personalities.
-Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Or for anything else
(laughs) you know.

The local radio station
made up jingles about me.

DJ:
The boys have written
a song in Dorothy's honor

and I hope it
comes out alright.

♪ Hey, look who's
on the stand again ♪

(country music)

♪ Back to defend
her killer friend ♪

♪ Got her
psychiatry degree ♪

♪ Hoo Lord! ♪

♪ Now, she's on
Arthur's side you see ♪

♪ She tries to
justify what's wrong ♪

♪ Because his mother played
with his dong, hey, hey! ♪

♪ Yakety yak,
Dorothy's back ♪

-Yeah.
-Gibney: They were making
fun of you because--

just because
you were on his side,
or because

you were evincing
a particular theory about him?

How about all of the above?

All of the above,
you know, uh...

Yeah.

Members of the jury,

how do you find
in the matter of

the People of the State of
New York vs. Arthur Shawcross?

Foreman:
Guilty.

Narrator:
It took the jury
less than two hours

to find Mr. Shawcross sane

and guilty of
the murders of 10 women.

It took me three years
to recover

from my three weeks
on the stand.

No one had believed
a word I said.

-Reporter: Do you think
Dorothy Lewis let you down?
-Don't block me, please.

I have no comment
on Dr. Dorothy Lewis.

-Thank you.
-(door shutting)

Dorothy:
What are you doing?
What's happening?

(whimpering) No more.

Narrator:
Was Arthur Shawcross crazy
when he murdered his victims

and consumed
their genitalia?

Of course. He had to be.

Insane?

Not necessarily.

(birds chirping)

-Gibney: When a defense
attorney hires you...
-Dorothy: Yeah? Mm-hmm.

-in the legal system, for what
purpose do they hire you?
-Dorothy: Yeah.

Well, uh, you know,

I don't really care
for what purpose

'cause I do
the same evaluation.

They're probably
hoping that I will find

the person is stark
raving mad. (laughs)
But, uh...

The law has a lot to learn
from psychiatry.

And instead, psychiatry
accepts the legal definition

of what's crazy
and what isn't crazy.

They have a notion
of competence,

and a notion of insanity,

both of which don't make
sense psychiatrically.

There are different
levels of competence.

"Oh, well, I know
what a courtroom is.

A courtroom is where there's
a judge and there's a jury."

"And do you know what
you're accused of?"

"Oh yeah.
I'm accused of robbery,

of murder, and..."

Done, you know?
He's competent.

This is the law, period.

Burr:
In the Middle Ages
in England,

they had the death penalty,
and the legal system

had the view if
somebody had become mad,

that madness itself
was enough punishment.

That's part of
the English common law

that came with the English
colonists to North America.

At some point though,

in death penalty cases
in the United States,

that notion got lost.

That madness was
punishment enough,

and people could be executed

despite being very psychotic.

And as late as the 1950s,

the US Supreme Court had
examined a case like that,

and said that doesn't
offend the Constitution.

It's not cruel
and unusual to do that.

Dorothy:
You're competent
to be executed

if you know what you've
been found guilty of,

and if you know what
it is to be executed.

Now, that's a pretty low bar,
wouldn't you say?

By and large,
the law has taken on

the very simple-minded
criterion

that ignores all
that we know now

about how
the human brain works,

about some of the genetics
of disorders.

(applause, cheering)

When Clinton was
running for president,

he was called back
to Arkansas

to sign a death warrant
because he was governor.

Apparently, Ricky Ray was
used to having his dinner

at a certain time and saving
the dessert for later.

And he...

saved his pecan pie

for after the execution.

Now, I would say he didn't know
what it meant to be executed.

But my colleagues found
him perfectly competent

to be executed.

And I don't know
who ate the pie.

(applause, cheering)

♪ ♪

Max (singing):
♪ Mrs. Mooney
has a pie shop ♪

♪ Does good business,
but I've noticed
something weird ♪

♪ Lately, all the neighbors'
cats have disappeared ♪

♪ Wouldn't do in my shop ♪

♪ Just the thought of it's
enough to make you sick ♪

♪ And I'm telling you
them pussycats is quick ♪

♪ No denying times
is hard, sir ♪

♪ Even harder than the worst
pies in London-- ♪

More pies.

More pies.

More pies.

More pies.

Eat the flesh.

♪ Eat his body,
drink his blood ♪

Narrator:
I am haunted by
the prospect of condemning

to death a person
whose upbringing

and brain function
have made it hard,

if not impossible,
for him to control his acts.

Granted, the person
may be a menace.

I have no problem
locking him up

and throwing away the key.

Until we know how to
treat such individuals,

the public
must be protected.

Dorothy:

(bird chirping)

Max was brought to
the prison ward at Bellevue

because this was
the second time

that he had tried
to kill a lover.

♪ ♪

I was called by
one of the doctors

because they
believed that he had

Multiple Personality
Disorder.

I was asked to
confirm the diagnosis,

and then we kinda clicked.

-(Dorothy laughs)
-So, I went to see
him frequently.

Party tonight.

As far as we could tell,
Max had been

tortured by his mother.

Dorothy:
Where would she hit you?

She punched...

she punched and she...

She had big long nails,
and she used to break...

-Dorothy: Really?
-She used to dig
them into your skin.

Do you have any marks
where she hurt you?

Do I have any marks
where she hurt me?

I see marks here,

-little bit I think here, yeah.
-Max: Yeah.

-And also right here.
-Dorothy: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Marks where I had
to kneel on glass.

-Dorothy: What do
you mean, kneel on glass?
-I had broken some,

and she said,
"Well, clean it up."

And so, she pushed me
down on the floor, and I,

you know, there was glass
on the floor, and I said,

"Well, let me get up."
She said, "Clean it up.

You broke it.
Clean it up," she said.

-(slapping, growl)
-Dorothy: Stop it!

-(gibberish)
-Dorothy: ...terrible things.

(gibberish)

(in haughty voice):
But you cannot see him?

Why is that we can see him--
Can you see him?

-Mm, no.
-He's there.

-Who?
-You...

-You cannot see him?
-Dorothy: There was

a very strong, often cruel,

part of him, Kalki,

who was almost
god-like in the way
he viewed himself.

Whatever I do is good.

Dorothy:

He was the one who
stabbed Max's lovers.

It was the game.

(gibberish)

(mumbling)

Dorothy:
And then there's Jabreel,

and Jabreel was an old man.

A Zen monk.

(lightly):
You see? That is love there.
That is love.

She would hold him sometimes...

Dorothy:
He seemed to have developed
as a comforter for Max.

-Max also talked
about a baby.
-(whining)

(whining continues)

Yeager:
He was a very
bright young man

and had some insight

into what was going on
in his head.

So we would say to him,
"Max,

"if a 12-year-old kid
had the same kinds

"of switching that you have,

what kinds of questions
would you ask him?"

I would ask them...

if they had a place...

-(water flowing)
-they can go

that nobody else can go to.

A place inside themselves

where nobody else
could go to.

-(birds chirping)
-That would seem like
that no one else is there.

And I would say,
"Is it a beach?
Is it trees?"

I would say, "What is it?
Where do you go?

"Where do you go when

you just feel like
going someplace else?"

♪ ♪

It's a very special thing to do,
and not many people can do that.

-Dorothy: So you'd
say it's very special?
-I'd say it's very special.

Yeager:
And then we would try
it out on the kids,

and he was spot on.

That's how bright
and insightful he was,

but he couldn't help himself.

-Dorothy: What games
are you playing?
-Hm.

Dorothy:
The last time
you played games,

-you got him into
a lot of trouble.
-Hm.

-Dorothy: What are you
doing, Kalki?
-Hm.

Don't pull that
"hm" on me.

-Hello, Kalki. Yeah,
I know you're there.
-I am here.

I know you're there,
and I know
most people don't

-talk to you straight.
-Hm.

But I am miffed.
I thought we had
an agreement.

You and Jabreel
had an agreement.

-I thought we did.
I thought we did!
-We did not.

I thought that went--

Do you speak any French?

You know ça va sans dire.

-It goes without saying.
-Saying. (laughs)

Maybe we clicked because
I didn't play favorites.

If you notice, I'm empathic
to every one of them.

Well, Kalki certainly
has a lot of strength.

(lightly):
Yes, he is very
strong, isn't he?

Dorothy:
You never badmouth,
especially the abuser.

That is-- that's an invitation
to murder.

-(ominous music)
-(thunder rumbling)

♪ ♪

One day,
I came into my office,

and my secretary
handed me one of these
telephone slips,

and it said,

"Mr. Scorsese's
office has called,

and would like
you to call back."

So I called back,

and an assistant
of his said,

"Mr. Scorsese has discovered
that you see murderers.

"Robert De Niro is going
to be in a remake

"of 'Cape Fear,'
and he would like

"to meet some murderers.

Can you arrange that?"

It was so funny.
I felt like,

would you say,
a casting director?

So I asked Max.

He really had attempted
to murder twice.

Oh yes,
I could talk to him.

Dorothy: Max said sure,
he would talk with him.

-I said, "Well,
how about Kalki?"
-(haughty): Yes.

-"And Jabreel?"
And Jabreel said...
-(lightly): Oh, yes.

Dorothy:
So we made an arrangement
for De Niro

to go into the prison ward.

At first,
Max seemed puzzled.

And I said, "Max,
you must know him.

You've seen 'Taxi Driver.'"

And he said,
"I've never seen 'Taxi Driver.'"

I said, "Max,
Mr. De Niro's going to make

"a movie out of a man

who has trouble
with his temper."

Oh! (grunts)

(Dorothy laughing)

And I said, "I know

"Kalki has had trouble
with his temper.

"I would like very much

for Mr. De Niro
to meet Kalki."

♪ ♪

And the next thing I know,
Max really metamorphoses

to this haughty--

The chin came up.

You know,
he really looks different.

The whole visage is,
you know, different.

The muscles.

I said, "Kalki,
this is Mr. De Niro.

Mr. De Niro,
this is Kalki."

And Kalki says,

"Oh, you were so
good in 'Taxi Driver'!"

Dorothy:
Tell me, what has happened
to your case since--

No, nothing's happened.
It will take a long time.

I do not care what happens.

-I wish they had
the death penalty.
-Oh!

I wish they had
the death penalty.
I would happily have it.

-Since wha--
Because when...
-Dorothy: Why?

(voice breaking):
I-I will tell you why.
Because...

when a dog goes mad,
you shoot it, don't you?

And a person's worth
more than a dog,

and if, and if...

if you were that kind to a dog,

why not be that kind
to a human being

and just shoot him or something?

Dorothy:
Max had some good lawyers
who cared about him,

and they asked me
if I would write

a note saying that he
was no longer dangerous

and that he should be
discharged from there,

and I said no.

He had twice,
in his altered states,

tried to kill.

And I had
no reason to believe

that he wouldn't
do it again.

And even though we had
a lovely relationship,

you know, I've seen
enough to know that

people can turn on a dime.

They were very,
very angry at me,

but they found another
psychiatrist who was willing

to write a note,
and he was discharged.

I think Max never
really forgave me.

(cars honking)

♪ ♪

(snow falling)

Where is Dad? Where is he?

-Gillian Lewis: Oh, there he is.
-Eric: Here's Dad.

-Dorothy: Is this Dad? Yay.
-Eric: Yeah.

Dorothy:
I like that Royal Army
Medical Corps, huh?

-Eric: It looks great.
-Yes.

-Gillian: Design is so nice.
-Beautifully done.

-Yeah.
-Eric: It says, "scholar,
editor, teacher."

-I forgot that we put that.
-Gillian: You left out,
you know,

-husband, father.
-Dorothy: Husband, father.

-Gillian: Cool dude.
-Eric: Funny guy.

Dorothy:
I bought four places.

So which-- now which one
of you wants to be where?

I wanna be there.
I think we have that.

Eric:
Yeah, you have to
be next to dad.

And then the one back there,
one back there.

-Eric: That works.
-Dorothy: Yeah. Okay.

-Gillian: This is
the weirdest conversation.
-(laughs)

♪ ♪

(projector clicking)

Dorothy:
I first met Mel in
medical school at Yale.

I was a student,
and he was

an assistant professor
in psychiatry.

I bumped into him in
the medical school library.

That night, I got a call.

He asked me out.

And I remember
sitting in my chair,

and it spun, and just
spinning around in it,

going, "Whee!"

I knew in a week I really,
really liked this person,

and I didn't forgive Mel

because it took him
two weeks to ask me
to marry him.

(baby crying)

You know,
he was a lot older than I.

And so, I spent
a fair amount of time

when he was going
off to meetings
and things like that,

I was back here.

Gillian:
When we were little,
Mom brought us

to our music lessons,

and we'd do art
projects with her.

Whereas my father,
I remember

climbing over him
and wrestling

in the living room,
or stuff like that.

They were two very
complementary forms

of bringing up a kid.

My father was
the very playful one...

and my mom was kinda
the inspirational one.

My career took off in a way
I hadn't planned it.

♪ ♪

My work on juveniles
condemned to death was cited

in several
Supreme Court decisions,

but success did
affect my family.

I made some teaching tapes
of Arthur Shawcross.

And some of the things
that he went through...

(childish):
She squeezed my thingy.

...were terribly
unsettling to my kids.

Now, they're kind
of interested in it.

(typing)

My mom does her writing by hand,

and then I type up
what she's given me.

I'm like a fast hunt-
and-peck-type typist,

so it could be worse.

(printing)

-(footsteps)
-Dorothy: Hey, Eric?

-Eric: Hey, Mom!
-Dorothy: Yeah?

-Eric: I'm done.
-That's beautiful.

Thanks, Mom,
but read it over

because I probably
made a few mistakes.

-Dorothy: Okay.
-I love you.

I love you.

Oh, thank you so much.

-You're so welcome.
I'll be back soon.
-Yeah, okay.

-Alright, I love you, Ma.
-I love you.

-Uber carefully!
-I will.

(door shuts)

Woman 1: I will never
forget that moment,

-or never forget that day.
-(glass breaking)

Woman 2:
The loss, the tragedy.

♪ ♪

Woman 3:

Woman 4:
The guy oughta
just be killed.

Dorothy:
Johnny Frank Garrett
had climbed into

the window of a convent,

and he had gotten into
the room of a nun.

He left all the
fingerprints,

he left the knives.

This was not a genius
we were dealing with.

(laughs) And an arch-criminal?
Uh-uh.

Narrator:
It was not always easy to
understand Johnny Garrett.

He was forever changing.

Shortly after confessing,

he insisted that
he had nothing to do
with the murder.

Hence, he refused to
sign the confession

he had just provided.

To the trial court, he was
a liar, pure and simple.

Johnny Frank Garrett,

thief, rapist,
murderer, liar,

was not crazy.
He was bad.

Johnny was dispatched to
death row in Huntsville

to await execution.

♪ ♪

We were doing a study

of 14 juveniles
under the age of 18

who were sentenced to death.

Johnny related in
a bizarre fashion,

and he talked to voices.

He clearly was
hallucinating.

We wrote reports
on everybody we saw

and sent them to lawyers,

but this one,
I was more detailed about

because at that point,
he was the sickest

of the death row people
I had ever seen.

I'd never seen somebody
so flamboyantly psychotic.

I diagnosed schizophrenia
with brain damage

and a history of seizures.

But then, I saw a video.

"48 Hours" interviewed him.

You're saying you didn't
commit the murder?

No, I didn't. I didn't
commit neither one of 'em,

rape or murder.

The hell would I go and do
somethin' like that for?

Reporter:
Johnny Garrett
claims he talks

to his dead
Aunt Barbara...

Sometimes she'll answer,
sometimes she won't.

Reporter:
...who he says often appears
in his death row cell.

-What does she tell you?
-That they're not gonna kill me.

That they can't kill me.

Dorothy:
Immediately, I realized
he's a multiple.

That's all she'll say
is they cannot kill me.

Dorothy:
Years later,
I was reading the "Times."

"Pope asks for clemency

for death row inmate
Johnny Frank Garrett."

And I couldn't believe it.

(church bell ringing)

Narrator:
Ann Richards,
the governor of Texas,

found herself in a quandary.

According to the material
she had read,

the condemned was
obviously demented.

Texas was about to
execute a crazy man

for an act committed
as a crazy boy.

If there was ever a case
deserving of clemency,

this was it.

On the other hand, Texas was
still the no-nonsense state.

♪ ♪

In fact, Texas was running
neck-and-neck with Florida

for the distinction
of executing

the greatest
number of criminals

since the death penalty
was re-instituted

in 1976.

No governor of Texas

who granted clemency
outright

could rely on reelection.

The Texas governor would
convene a clemency board.

It would act as
another jury.

If, after pondering
all the evidence,

it voted to spare
the prisoner,

so be it.

Nobody could then accuse

this governor of
being soft on crime.

Who was the political pawn
whose life hung
in the balance?

Johnny Frank Garrett.

He was coming up for
a clemency trial.

Dorothy:
See, you can see
a light in here,

and you can see if it's playing.

So I found out
who his lawyer was,

and called her, and I said,

"I goofed. I made a mistake.

"I will come down to Texas,

no fee, no charge, nothing."

It's pretty clear
that he dissociates.

He had a persona,
a violent one,
Aaron Shockman.

Dorothy:

(low whistle)

On about--
I guess I had to be

in fifth grade
'cause I met him--

Well, didn't meet him. I...

-Dorothy: How did you
meet him first?
-I got beat up.

And what happened
when you got beat up?

-I became Aaron Shockman.
-At that time?

And what did you do?

-Well, he beat them up.
-Really?

He's older than me...

-mentally.
-He's older than you?

-Intellectually.
-Mm-hmm.

-He's smarter than I am.
-Mm-hmm.

Dorothy:
He would pause between
what he was telling me,

and his eyes would
kind of go up,

and you see that often

with people who are
talking to someone

in their head.

Dorothy:

Dorothy: That's right.

Dorothy: Yeah.

Johnny:

♪ ♪

Dorothy:
He needed someone to take pain.

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy: Yes?

Dorothy: Yes? Yes?

Dorothy:

(indistinct)

Narrator:
I'd once heard a lecture
by an FBI agent.

He talked about how
children used in pornography

feared for the rest of their
lives that their identities

and the perverted acts they
were once forced to perform

will someday come to light.

Johnny was more terrified
of being recognized

in the pornographic films
he had made as a child

than he was of his
impending execution.

Dorothy: Mm-hmm.

Aaron was talking with me.

Again, Johnny's eyes

kinda looked up,

and I said,
"What's happening?"

Dorothy:
Is someone talking to you now?

Who's talking to you, Aaron?

-What's go--
What's happening?
-That bitch.

Dorothy:
Aaron said,
"That bitch Barbara,

she wants to get rid of me."

-Gibney: Aunt Barbara?
-Yeah. There was Aunt Barbara.

She was another
alter of Johnny's,

and she was near-sighted.

-I can't see you.
-Dorothy: What?

I can't see you.

-Dorothy: What do you mean,
you can't see me?
-You're blurred.

-Dorothy: And what's your name?
-Barbara.

Narrator:
A condemned person
must understand

the nature of the crime for
which he is being executed.

He must also
understand the fact

that he is about
to die for it.

In Johnny's case,
Aunt Barbara
had promised repeatedly

that Johnny would not die.

I'm not gonna let
that happen to him.

-Dorothy: What do you mean?
-I'm gonna stop it.

Dorothy:
How could you do that?

They will kill me, not him.

Dorothy:
Really? They would kill you,

and then what would
happen with him?

He would still be alive.

♪ ♪

Dorothy:
I testified the
following day.

We had reams of data

about his intelligence,
his mental condition.

This is how you create
a psychotic individual.

And we had clips

of him in some of
these states.

When he doesn't
want to remember...

he gives me the memories.

Dorothy:
But the clemency board
didn't give a damn.

Reporter:
Board members came
out to vote 17-to-1

to carry out the execution.

Garrett's only real hope now

is a personal pardon
from the governor.

That's unlikely,
and he faces death
by lethal injection...

Dorothy: Yeah.

Dorothy: Yeah.

(door slams)

Narrator:
To no one's surprise,

Aunt Barbara's plan
did not come off,

and the poison flowed
into Johnny's veins.

Witness accounts of the
execution lead me to believe

that before the poison
was injected,

it was Aaron, someone
far tougher than Johnny,

who came to help him
through his final ordeal.

Dorothy:
His last words were
something like,

"I'm sorry to my mother,

"sorry to the family
of the nun,

and the rest of you can
go fuck yourselves."

And I said, "Way to go."

Crowd (singing):
♪ Na-na, na, na! ♪

♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪

♪ Goodbye ♪

Reporter:
To this group of mostly
college students,

Johnny Frank Garrett
represented

all that's wrong
with our legal system.

With chants and candles,

they applauded Garrett's
death by lethal injection,

saying the punishment
must fit the crime.

Crowd (chanting):
Texas, you know!

Death row has got to go!

Reporter:
On the same side
of the street,

but with an opposite view,

were members of
Amnesty International.

The human rights group argue

that by executing
a mentally unstable convict,

a greater crime
was committed.

These hardened criminals

will never again murder,
rape, or deal drugs.

As governor,
I made sure they received

the ultimate punishment, death.

And Texas is a safer
place for it.

Yeager:
Back when we were doing
a lot of this work,

the tenor of our culture
at that time was really

crime and punishment,
and not rehabilitation.

They are not just
gangs of kids anymore.

They are often the kinds of kids
that are called super predators.

No conscience, no empathy.

So I don't wanna ask

what made them do this.

They must be taken
off the street.

Commercial:
She's the only Democrat
for governor

for the death penalty.

She's Dianne Feinstein.

When Dorothy and I first
started working together,

and we were seeing our
juveniles that were growing up,

so these were kids that
she had seen at 14.

I saw them when they
were in their 20s.

Man:
Picture of a bird with a long...

Yeager:
And, initially,

the state prisons had
a rehabilitative model.

So they were teaching
people how to read, write,

balance a checkbook,
get a job, write a resume.

And then as we were
getting more and more

into the work we were doing,
the culture was changing

and the politicians
were getting the message

that crime and punishment
is what's important.

We don't want to rehabilitate.

It's too expensive,
and who cares anyway?

If you come into our state

and you kill
one of our children,

you kill a police officer,

you're involved
with another crime

and you kill
one of our citizens,

you will face
the ultimate justice

in the state of Texas, and that
is you will be executed.

-Moderator:
What do you make of--
-(applause)

Burr:
The rationales for
the death penalty

have always been
retribution and deterrence.

Keeping other people from
engaging in the same behavior.

And all the studies,
social science studies,
have shown that

there's no deterrent effect
from executions.

In fact,
executions sort of bring

the act of killing into, uh,

the mainstream
as acceptable.

In states where
executions have gone up,

homicide rates
have often gone up.

Dorothy:
The legal system
at this point

is most interested in
incapacitating these people,

and you can't really
blame them for that.

Their interest is in
the public safety.

But, if you have
that and only that,

and you don't try to figure
out what it is that creates

these very dangerous people,

then you just run
the risk of making

more and more
and more prisons,
and never preventing.

♪ ♪

Narrator:
Ever since 1976,

juries have been obliged
to consider the mitigating

as well as the aggravating
circumstances of a murder.

Aggravating
circumstances focus,

for the most part,
on the grotesqueness
of the crimes.

Was the victim tortured
or raped or mutilated?

Was there more
than one victim?

Then there are
the mitigating
circumstances.

These often focus
on the defendant's
abusive childhood

and on the issues
of mental health.

Herein lies
the contradiction.

The gruesomeness
of the murder

is directly proportional

to the craziness
of the murderer.

Now, ask a jury to wrestle
with that equation

and come up with an answer.
It can't be done.

Burr:
The Supreme Court has always
used that word "compassion"

in describing what's
important about mitigation.

That it's something that allows

a compassionate impulse
to work in jurors.

My hope, and others' hope,

in our community
was that it would

expand to...

a view that serious
mental illness

would exempt people from

even being sentenced
to death to start with.

It hasn't,
hasn't moved that direction.

Are the courts becoming
more receptive?

Are juries becoming
more receptive to this?

-Dorothy: No.
-No.

Sawyer:
This is Yale psychiatrist
Dorothy Lewis

and her partner,
neurologist Jonathan Pincus
of Georgetown University.

They're trying to get courts
to give Multiple Personality

different treatment
under the law.

Which brings us
to David Wilson,

convicted of
murdering a stranger

who stopped to help
when he thought

Wilson's car was broken
down on the highway...

Man 1:
Was shot point-blank with
a 12-gauge shotgun...

Man 2:
...wallet still
in the glove box.

-A savage act...
-Man 3: What can you
say after something

so shocking happens?

♪ ♪

Dorothy:
David went into

some kind of state,

and he mistook

the guy who'd
stopped to help him

for somebody dangerous,
somebody in his life,

-and shot him
and killed him.
-(gunshot)

David: Wilson:
Personally, I remember
being in, in the car,

-but in the backseat
sleeping.
-Dorothy: Okay.

Wilson:
I didn't know
anybody got killed.

(video static)

-Dorothy: Is it working?
-Man: Mm-hmm.

Dorothy:
I went and examined him

after he was found guilty
and sentenced to death.

I was quite startled

when I saw he had scars

all over his chest
and all over his back,

and there was a burn scar.

Wilson:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:
He had an alter named Juan.

Man:

Man: Juan?

Man: Lee?

Dorothy:
And then he had
another alter.

I think there were
three of them.

Man:

-Man:
-Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy: I do.

Dorothy:

Dorothy:
David's father used
to hang David up

by his stomach,
with his trousers off.

Dorothy: Yeah?

-Dorothy: You...
-(heavy breathing)

(sniffling)

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

(sniffles)

Dorothy:

Dorothy: You don't remember...

What is, to you,
the most telling thing

that convinces you?

-It's a constellation
of things--
-And you've documented

-this independently?
Not just his word?
-Oh, yes.

No. Absolutely.

Because again, people
sitting at home would say

he's got a lot to gain here.

-Well here, you know...
-What? What does
he have to gain?

-Getting hospitalized
instead of jailed.
-Dorothy: He doesn't want that.

I had a different
impression from yours,

which was that he
really did not want us

to see these switches.

And indeed,
he doesn't really
believe that they occur.

Dorothy:
David touched me.

There's something about him
that was so vulnerable and, uh,

and so innocent.
There was a part that was...

♪ ♪

I got called to
testify at the appeal.

And David was there.

And I was explaining
his dissociative states,

and I stopped myself,
and I said, "Your Honor,

"may I interrupt
for a moment?

"Because David is
not here right now,

but Juan has come."

He switched.

It was after that hearing

that the judge reduced
the sentence to life.

-Dorothy: Do you remember me?
-Yes.

-Yeah? What's my name?
That's right.
-Dorothy.

Dorothy:
No civilized nation
throughout history

has executed its insane.

So from a moral
point of view,

you don't kill people who,

because of an illness,

act in an
uncontrollable way.

Sawyer:
But does this really mitigate

the horrible crime he committed?

He should be punished
and punished severely,

but should he be put
to death for that

if the main operative factors

in producing his violence were
completely out of his control?

But under the law,
he is still competent enough

to know right from wrong.

The issue is really
whether the individual

has that degree of control

to conform his behavior

to the requirements of law.

♪ ♪

(banging)

Narrator:
My daughter believes that
the judge who sentences

a person to death
should be responsible

for carrying out
his sentence.

He should spring
the trapdoor
under the gallows,

press the button to
deliver the current,

inject the poison.

-(church bells ringing)
-She thinks then there
would be fewer executions.

Most people, she believes,

would have trouble
doing those things.

I'm not so sure.

Game Voice:
Do you wonder what it is like
to witness an electrocution?

Insert 25 cents,

then quickly pull
the control handles

to administer
capital punishment.

(electricity buzzing)

(clanking, banging)

Narrator:
My question is,
within our own society,

are there individuals
who are able

to kill repeatedly,

and whose only
psychopathology,
if you could call it that,

is a lack of empathy
for other human beings?

Are there real sociopaths?

♪ ♪

Reporter (on TV):
The man on the left
has killed almost

20 men in Louisiana

since December 1983.

He is sought after
by the authorities,

-but only when it is
time to kill again.
-(chuckles)

Sam Jones is an executioner.

How many people do you
think you've executed?

Sam Jones (on TV):
Uh, I don't know
the exact number.

Eighteen to 19,
I'm not sure.
I lose track.

Reporter:
Sam usually works out
of the death house

at the Angola State
Prison in Louisiana,

but today, he's some
1,148 miles away,

up in Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania,
where he's working

at his other job as
a licensed electrician.

Yeager:
He was a traveling
executioner.

So he would go wherever
the execution needed to be.

"People" magazine
had found this guy,

and I think he was
probably advertising

his services pretty widely.

(laughs)

Jones (on TV):
Warden, this is Sam Jones.

I was checking to see if
I had any dates coming up.

Dorothy:
He executed some
of my clients.

He lived in a trailer
park in Louisiana.

Cathy and I go down,
and we meet this guy.

Yeager:
I think I had said
to you before,

not too many people
have made me frightened.

He did.

Dorothy:
Sam came with,
I think, a six-pack,

and he opened for me

and for him,
and we started talking.

Are you ready?

Dorothy:

Dorothy: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

He had no insight into
what this was doing to him...

He, uh...

Narrator:
Now, I had met
someone who told me

he had no qualms
about killing anyone,

man, woman, or child.

Dorothy:

Narrator:
Was Sam Jones the character

I'd been seeking for years?

The cool, premeditated
killer without a trace

of psychosis
or brain damage?

♪ ♪

I did all this stuff that I do
with my murderers.

Dorothy:

Dorothy: Yeah. Like what?

Why? Oh really?

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Dorothy:
Sam was as confused
and muddle-headed,

as battered and beaten,
as the violent men

I had interviewed
on death row.

And by his own admission,
he had a violent past.

His serial executions
were but the latest
manifestations

of his paranoid rage.

He had served time only
for assault and battery,
not for murder.

But that seemed more
the luck of the draw

than a reflection
of mental health.

By his 19th execution,

he had a lot
of experience.

I suspect each
press of the button
further inured him,

making it easier and easier
over time to do his job.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh-huh.

Yeager:
When he was really
talking about himself

and really getting
into his philosophy

on executions
and he's just doing a job,

he told us that...

Dorothy:

Dorothy:

Yeager:
He would blank out, and he
would do a piece of artwork.

(indistinct chatter)

Dorothy:
The pictures got more
and more bizarre,

more and more psychotic,

and more and more
violent.

Jones:

Yeager: There, you saw
the real person who had

this facade that
he was a cool guy
'cause he was doing this

terrifying work, which
should upset anybody.

Although he was very
cool about, you know,
"Oh, no big deal."

His paintings
showed his humanity.

You could see the upset.

Dorothy: Mm-hmm.

Dorothy:
Yeah.

Dorothy:

It's puzzling. It's...

you know, you,
you certainly wonder was--

did he dissociate or, uh,

did he think killing is
different from executing?

Dorothy: Your grandchild?
How old is your grandchild?

Dorothy:

Dorothy:
(laughs) He does?

♪ ♪

(birds chirping)

(grunts)

(coughing)
There's mold on these things.

(clacking)

Oh for... God's sake.

Hey, Eric?

-Eric! Eric,
guess what I found?
-Eric: Yeah?

"1/23/89, tape 2."

(Eric laughs)

You know what that is?
I wouldn't even put

Bundy's name on it
'cause I thought

in case anyone
got hold of these,

I didn't want them
to know what it was.

That's my last
interview with him.

Take a look.
Don't get DNA on it!

(laughs)

♪ ♪

Narrator:
It is now 30 years
since Theodore Bundy,

arguably the most notorious

American serial murderer
of the 20th century,

was electrocuted.

Crowd (singing):
♪ Fry, fry! ♪

♪ Ted Bundy, goodbye ♪

Narrator:
For readers unfamiliar
with this case,

Theodore Bundy
was a young male

sexual predator who
terrorized the United States

from coast to coast
during the 1970s.

He committed over
30 homicides of young women,

decapitating some

and saving their
skulls as trophies.

Attractive, articulate,
and charismatic,

he convinced the court

to allow him to
represent himself,

turning his trials more
into performance pieces

than serious legal
proceedings.

After numerous
unsuccessful appeals,

Bundy was executed
in Starke, Florida,

on January 24th, 1989.

(typing)

Why write about Bundy
decades after his death?

Hasn't everything of
importance already
been said?

No.

The authors
resurrect this case

to call into question
the widely held belief

that Bundy had
a normal childhood,
and that he simply had

an innate predisposition
to extreme violence.

That he was simply
born evil.

Bundy himself perpetuated
the fantasy

that he came from this
perfectly normal childhood,

and so, he must be evil.

I grew up in a wonderful
home with two...

dedicated and loving parents,

one of five brothers
and sisters.

Yeager:
That's fodder for us to say,
now, wait a minute.

We know that people
are not born evil.

That has to develop somehow.

I hope no one will try
to take the easy way out

and to try to blame
or otherwise accuse

my family of contributing
to this because...

Gibney:
So I'm interested in
particular of why you,

you're so interested in him,
even today.

Uh-huh. Well, uh,

first of all,
'cause I got it wrong.

♪ ♪

In '86, Bundy's attorneys
asked, "Would you

work with the defense team?"
Because they were appealing.

And I said sure.

We had our psychologist,

our neurologist,
our neuropsychologist,

and did a computerized EEG.

We did not find any gross
neurological problems,

but we did find
some abnormalities

that are often seen
in depressed people.

Bundy had already
been evaluated by several
other professionals.

They diagnosed psychopathy.

They said he was
just a psychopath.

-Did you ever see
the Dobson tapes?
-Gibney: Yes.

You know? (laughs)

James Dobson:
Ted, how did it happen?

Take me back.
What are the antecedents

of the behavior?

The basic...

humanity and basic spirit
that God gave me was intact,

but, unfortunately,
it became overwhelmed at times

through the kind of fantasy
life that was fueled...

largely,
by pornography.

Do you realize how many

serial killers you
would have out there

if pornography could do that?

It's so simple-minded.

I think it's clear that sexual
sadists, like Ted Bundy,

are very much interested
in pornography.

Research I've recently done
with Roy Hazelwood of the FBI

indicated that more than 50%
of sexually sadistic offenders,

like Bundy, had sizable
pornography collections.

Would curbing pornography
make our society any safer?

It would do more good than
banning assault rifles would do.

Bryant Gumbel:
What kinds of materials
are, perhaps,

-more harmful?
-Well, number one on my list,

as of 1986, was the covers
of "Detective" magazines.

♪ ♪

Dorothy:
Bundy's grandfather
had a real collection

of pornography that he
was exposed to very young,

pulp fiction,

sex and murder
and stuff like that.

And he would fantasize about
these sexual, murderous

kinds of things.

And he said
it would build and build,

and then,
it had to be released.

Ted Bundy:
Those of us who have been

so much influenced by
pornographic violence

are not some kind of
inherent monsters.

We are your sons
and we are your husbands.

We grew up in regular families,

and pornography can reach out

and snatch a kid out
of any house today.

Dorothy:
Clearly, it had
some influence on him,

but I think there were
other explanations.

♪ ♪

And so, I interviewed
family members.

His aunts, an uncle,
his mother.

I learned that his
grandmother suffered

from a depressive disorder.

She was psychiatrically
hospitalized

and treated with
electroconvulsive therapy.

(electricity buzzing)

I was talking to
Aunt Julia, and I said,

"What was he like
as a little boy?"

And she said, "Well,
when he was 3 years old,

"he used to come up
with kitchen knives,

"and he'd stand

at the door,
then he'd come in."

He picked up the blanket

and put the knives
around her on the bed.

And he had that
glint in his eye.

This was the first,
the very, very first time

that we realized
how aberrant he had been.

I was so stunned.

Reporter 1:
Convicted murderer
Theodore Bundy

is taking new steps to avoid
Florida's electric chair.

Reporter 2:
Armed guards brought Bundy

to the Orlando Federal
Building for a hearing

to determine his
mental competency.

♪ ♪

Dorothy:
When I testified,
I had enough data

to make a diagnosis
of a bipolar disorder.

He had episodes of highs
where he could keep

going and going and going
and he was grandiose,

but these were
interspersed with periods

of terrible depression,

when he'd drop out
of school,

he would weep,
he would go off by himself.

On the stand,
I said he was not competent

either to represent himself,

or, really, to go to trial.

I'm not going through this
and you knew that, Your Honor.

Dorothy:
But the judge ruled that
he was competent enough,

and he upheld
the death sentence.

(static)

Reporter:
Salvador Dali was 84.

In Florida,
a convicted serial killer

is continuing his string
of 11th hour confessions.

As NBC's Ed Ravel reports,
Ted Bundy is apparently trying

to delay his execution scheduled
for the electric chair tomorrow.

Dorothy:
A few years after
I first saw him,

I got a call
from his lawyer,

saying he wanted to meet with
me before he was executed.

So I did go.

The attorney, she said,

"Ted wants to know
if you can

say that he is incompetent
to be executed."

And I said, "I would
be laughed out of town.

I just can't do that."
And I said,

"And all the work
that we've done

"to understand people who

"do these kinds of things
will not be considered valid

if I say something
as ridiculous as that."

Gibney:
But he clearly knew he
was going to be executed.

-Yes.
-He knew what
an execution meant.

That's right,
and he knew what he had done.

♪ ♪

And I said,
"Besides, the warden

"has three other
psychiatrists out there,

waiting to refute this."

Gibney:
What was his reaction?

He said he, he could
understand that.

Dorothy (on tape):
Testing.

Dorothy:
He gave me permission
to tape the conversation.

Dorothy (on tape):

Dorothy:
I asked him why did
he ask to see me.

And he said...

Bundy (on tape):

I was not fascinated
by his perversions.

I was far more interested in
how he got the way he was.

Narrator:
Whatever his motives for
asking me to come to Starke

and mine for coming,

our four and a half
hours together

on the day before his
execution were riveting.

Dorothy (on tape):

Bundy (on tape):

Bundy (on tape):

(door creaking)

Narrator:
When the tape recorder
was off,

Bundy told me
that he had had

a sexual encounter
with one of his sisters.

Later, his mother told me

that Bundy
had told his sister

that she should be careful

because there was
someone out in the world

who was killing women
who looked just like her.

Bit by bit, I was beginning

to see
a very different story
in Bundy's family life.

One that would upend
the myth of pure evil.

(horn blaring, train roaring)

♪ ♪

(rumbling)

(doorbell rings)

(door opens)

-Dr. Lewis, how are you?
-Hello!

Dorothy:
The last interview
I did tape,

and there was a point
in that interview

when he said, "I want you to
turn the tape off." Only once.

And that was when
he talked about

his relationship
with his sister.

I didn't talk to him
about his sisters.

I was basically talking
about crimes with him.

Really? Did you--
But even earlier on,

-he didn't tell
you that he had--
-No, I didn't...

He was always protective
with his family. I mean,

he would tell me things that
I wouldn't even ask him about.

Dorothy:
Bill Hagmaier,
he was the major

FBI agent on the case.

He had spent
a lot of time with Bundy,

much more time than I did.

So, that's why
I wanted to see him.

Each of us was close to Bundy

in a different kind of capacity.

We were the ones that
Bundy trusted.

♪ ♪

Bill Hagmaier:
I was assigned to
the Behavioral Science Unit,

and they had already
started to do

some research
on murderers,

and Bundy's name came up.

So I wrote him a letter,
just general letter,

and Ted invited
me to visit him.

Gibney:
Were you able to get
Bundy to talk much

about his family
and his childhood?

Hagmaier:
We talked about it
quite a bit.

He wasn't telling the truth
on all this, I know.

Everything was cotton candy
for him and his family.

He didn't want to say anything
bad about his family at all.

Or his mother.

Dorothy:
Bundy's mother
was impregnated

by someone,
we're not sure who it is.

I asked her something
about how she felt

when she knew
she was pregnant.

And I don't know if
I actually said abortion

or if she brought it up,
but she said, "He,"

now meaning the father,

"He took me to a doctor.

"The doctor gave me
pills for an abortion,

but nothing happened."

-Gibney: So it was an attempted
abortion that didn't succeed?
-Yeah, yeah.

Which is not supposed
to be so good for the baby.

Her father made
arrangements

for her to go up to
a home for unwed mothers,

called the Lund Home.

She was at the Lund Home
for two months,

and then gave birth to him.

She wouldn't allow her
father to come up at all

until after the baby
was born,

and she signed papers

saying he could be
put up for adoption.

And then,
her father came up

and brought her home,
back to Philadelphia.

However, for two months,
he kept saying,

"We have to get
the baby back.
We want the baby back."

And finally, she gave in.

She went and picked
the baby up,
brought the baby home,

and then her father
insisted

that he be known
as the baby's father,

and that the baby
call him Father,

and that Louise be
known as his sister.

♪ ♪

He was an incredibly
violent man,

and, apparently,
a very, very disturbed man,

according to interviews that
I've had with relatives.

Dorothy (on tape):

Bundy (on tape):

(traffic noise)

Dorothy:
The whole family

knows the story
that in the car

while the grandfather
was driving,

one of his younger
brothers, I believe,

said, "Oh! Tell us about
Ted's real father."

And, apparently,

the grandfather was out of
his mind, filled with rage.

He had total control
over Bundy's mother.

He had total control over
how this child was
gonna be raised,

and, um, and the family
told Dorothy that

they had to help the mother
and the child, Ted,

escape from the father
and go cross-country

to get away from him.

Dorothy:
Things were horrendous
for Bundy

from conception onward.

♪ ♪

(birds chirping)

(papers rustling)

Several years after
Bundy was executed,

I got a phone call
from his wife, and--

who I had never spoken to,
never heard from before,

and I think I couldn't even
contact her while he was alive.

And she said a friend of
hers was coming to New York.

She was going to give her
a packet of love letters

that Bundy had
written to her.

The handwriting was
all very much alike.

But the signatures
were different.

See look. This would be a--
an ordinary thing.

An ordinary writing, yeah.

But, uh, here,
look at the difference.

That is so aberrant

and out of control
and, uh, different.

He often signed different
names to his letters,

but the most important one
is that some of them

are signed "Sam."

Oh look, here's Sam.

Here's Sam.

Here's another Sam.

No, it's a Sambo.
It's a version of Sam.

Sambo.

It turns out that

Sam was the name
of his grandfather.

People who are multiples,
or who have DID,

it's very common for
them to have an alter

who is the abuser.

When I saw that, I thought,
how did I so miss this?

We realized that Sam
was the grandfather,

and that he had taken
on this persona...

With all the work that
we have been doing,

there are numerous
data that show

he is somewhere on the continuum

of Dissociative
Identity Disorder.

When he was going
to be sentenced,

-he said to the judge...
-Bundy: I'm not
asking for mercy,

for I find it
somewhat absurd

to ask for mercy for
something I did not do.

Dorothy:
And there was one time
after he had told me

about many of the murders.

He came in and he sat down,

and his demeanor
was different.

And he said, "The person
sitting before you

never killed anyone."

I don't think
that he is kidding

or pretending that
he's innocent.

I think that there
is a Bundy state

where he did not do
any of those murders.

♪ ♪

In fact, he referred
to the person who killed,

he called that The Entity.

Bundy (on tape):

(indistinct tape chatter)

Dorothy:
I had a clue then

that he might suffer from
a dissociative disorder,

but then when I saw the writing,

and I saw that he did, at times,

seem to become his grandfather,

who was a very violent
kind of person,

that's when I got interested.

So yeah, uh...

I'm not the first to have

wondered whether his grandfather
was indeed his father.

♪ ♪

May I ask you
a question?

There are a lot of reasons
that I think this would--

and you've heard
this also before.

Other people who
have thought that--

I've said he's his own
father, but he isn't.

I-I think the grandfather
may have...

Hagmaier:
I-I don't know.

I know that was one of
the first things that
Louise said to me

when she met me.
She just said,
"I just want you to know

right now that my father
is not his father."

-(laughing)
-I didn't-- I didn't even
ask her the question.

That is amazing
'cause I did not...

(voice fading)

A number of people
have suspected

that there was incest,
but nobody has ever come out

and said that there is
incest in the family.

If we were to get blood,

we could look at the genes

in the blood sample,
the DNA.

We all have a
certain number of
identical matching genes.

But, if you have more than

a certain number
of identical genes,

it is an indication
of incest

because you have too much
from the same family.

♪ ♪

Basically, what you're
getting to, does incest

influence serial
killer development?

(stammers):
I doubt that the FBI's lab

is going to give out
that for that purpose.

Not saying it wouldn't
help us understand behavior

in people with it,
but it's just...

Gibney:
So were you able to
get DNA from the FBI?

Dorothy:
Oh no. The FBI isn't
generous that way.

But I was able
to get a sample

elsewhere, and according
to that report,

his grandfather
was not his father.

He was not
the product of incest.

Gibney:
Was there some actual
disappointment when you--

-Dorothy: Oh yes.
Oh, oh yes.
-Gibney: And why would it be

so important to know
whether or not
Bundy's grandfather

was also his father?

I don't think
genetically it matters.

That I really don't believe.

Uh, you know, it might.

It may be
that he had more, uh,

a greater likelihood of
having a bipolar disorder,

but, uh, I think that--

I think he was treated

throughout his
lifetime as though

he were some
kind of child that

you don't want
to have around.

♪ ♪

His mother,
when I spoke with her,

she said, "I can't wait
till it's all over."

-Gibney: You mean the execution?
-Yeah.

I-I find it hard to
interpret it any other way.

Yeah. But can you imagine?
"I can't wait
till it's all over."

Uh...

Reporter:
There was the atmosphere
of a public hanging as

hundreds of singing,
chanting
death penalty supporters

gathered at
the Florida State Prison,

demanding the execution
of serial killer

Ted Bundy be carried out.

And when the
official witnesses
came out of the prison,

signaling the death
of Bundy,

-there were cheers.
-(crowd cheering)

(rumbling)

Dorothy:
You know,
it's taken me 30 years

to get to this point,

but we could've learned
a whole lot more from him.

If he were not killed,
we could've learned a lot about

serial murderers, but, uh...

they killed him.
They, uh...

♪ ♪

(wind blowing)

Female Reporter (on TV):
And we have
breaking news today

from the
Justice Department.

A new directive
from Attorney General
Bill Barr to reinstate

executions of federal
death penalty prisoners

for the first time in
nearly two decades.

But Attorney General Barr
says it's time to restore

the death penalty for
the sake of victims

and their families.
He points out that

under administrations
of both parties,

attorneys general
have approved seeking...

Dorothy:
When I heard that,
I thought that all of

the advances that
we had made in terms of

being humane,
uh, were lost.

♪ ♪

Barr, he puzzles me.

These five people.
If indeed,

they've done the most
grotesque things,

we know that
the most disturbed,
the most psychotic,

or the most brain-damaged
killers,

do the most bizarre,
grotesque, horrendous
kinds of things.

So he was picking

the sickest of the sick
to execute.

You know, I'm not sure
that we've come as far as
we think we have.

It feels as if all the work

that I had done,
that Dick Burr had done,

that, for the moment,
it had been--

It was like flushed
down the toilet.

(mob chattering)

As if we'd gone back
to like the Middle Ages.

(chatter continues)

♪ ♪

I remember one time,
someone asked me,

"When you see in a movie

"or read about
a witch being burned,

are you watching it,
or are you the witch?"

(inaudible)

I'm always the witch.

-I think, what a horrible,
horrible thing.
-(flames roar)

And picture the flames
coming up around me,

and wondering how
someone could do that
to someone else.

It appalled me
and it fascinated me.

It reminds me of taking
a tour of death row.

First, it was the area
where the visitors watch.

And then,
they took us around

to go right into
the execution room.

This wooden chair
with leather belts.

I did picture
myself there.

♪ ♪

Narrator:
Ted Bundy, Johnny Garrett,

Marie Moore, Jonathan, me.

Could any of us
become a murderer?

Could anyone in the world
become a murderer?

I think so.

Murderers are made,
not born.

The more we understand
about the genesis
of violence,

the harder it is
to draw a line between
guilt and innocence,

sanity and insanity.

(click, electricity zapping)

Dorothy:
As human beings,
we struggle to cope

with the need
for protection,

the desire for revenge,

and decency and morality.

But to understand
sometimes means to forgive,

and these days,
people aren't in a
very forgiving mood.

Maybe Ted Bundy was right.

We are all far more
curious about what
the murderer did,

the gory details
of the crime,

than about why they did it.

It's the act of murder
that fascinates us

and tickles our
own limbic systems.

No wonder people fight
for seats at executions.

(fireworks blasting)

Is that, at least in part,
why I do the work I do?

-(projector clicking)
-Maybe.

I wouldn't be surprised.

(projector stops)

♪ ♪

♪ ♪