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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:28,962 --> 00:00:34,176 This documentary is based on archival footage from 1969. 2 00:00:34,301 --> 00:00:39,348 Opinions expressed have not been altered in any way. 3 00:00:43,185 --> 00:00:45,479 1968 4 00:00:46,647 --> 00:00:49,274 A time of activism 5 00:00:52,778 --> 00:00:55,322 Radical student movement 6 00:00:55,739 --> 00:00:58,325 The World Revolution 7 00:01:00,410 --> 00:01:04,706 Confrontation at Yasuda Auditorium, the University of Tokyo 8 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,177 May 13, 1969 9 00:01:17,427 --> 00:01:20,430 At the University of Tokyo in Komaba 10 00:01:20,597 --> 00:01:26,436 over 1,000 students waited in Lecture Hall 900 for a man. 11 00:01:28,355 --> 00:01:34,987 They belonged to a radical leftist league called Zenkyoto. 12 00:01:37,322 --> 00:01:41,285 Here to face his archenemies was Yukio Mishima. 13 00:01:41,785 --> 00:01:47,958 The iconic right-wing novelist idolized the Emperor. 14 00:01:48,125 --> 00:01:51,211 I saw resolve in his eyes. 15 00:01:51,378 --> 00:01:54,756 He wanted to persuade those 1,000 students. 16 00:01:54,881 --> 00:01:56,216 He was a genius. 17 00:01:56,341 --> 00:01:57,884 Very sharp. 18 00:01:58,010 --> 00:01:59,052 A superstar. 19 00:01:59,177 --> 00:02:02,472 He was at his most brilliant. 20 00:02:02,597 --> 00:02:05,225 Communism is my enemy. 21 00:02:05,475 --> 00:02:07,603 For Mishima, the Emperor is... 22 00:02:07,728 --> 00:02:11,607 We struggle with the same difficulty. 23 00:02:11,732 --> 00:02:15,444 You can't transcend being Japanese. 24 00:02:15,569 --> 00:02:16,903 That's OK. 25 00:02:17,779 --> 00:02:23,493 It was a debate of polar opposite political ideologies. 26 00:02:23,744 --> 00:02:30,083 This is where the legendary debate between intellectuals begins. 27 00:02:31,043 --> 00:02:36,214 This 50-year-old footage is in TBS Television archives. 28 00:02:36,548 --> 00:02:39,426 With accounts from 13 witnesses and experts 29 00:02:39,551 --> 00:02:43,889 we attempt to reconstruct the legend. 30 00:02:49,102 --> 00:02:54,900 Mishima: The Last Debate 31 00:03:04,493 --> 00:03:11,083 In the 1960s, war was an imminent threat to the Japanese. 32 00:03:12,709 --> 00:03:14,878 As the Vietnam War raged on 33 00:03:15,963 --> 00:03:20,509 students protested against it and university bureaucracy. 34 00:03:20,634 --> 00:03:22,844 Activism spread rapidly. 35 00:03:31,270 --> 00:03:35,399 Students who rejected the existing New Left groups 36 00:03:35,565 --> 00:03:41,029 formed Zenkyoto groups at universities, with more autonomy. 37 00:03:42,322 --> 00:03:45,742 It became a nationwide political movement. 38 00:03:48,412 --> 00:03:51,665 Demanding affordable tuition and autonomy 39 00:03:51,748 --> 00:03:58,755 they became radical and confronted the school authorities. 40 00:04:02,843 --> 00:04:06,179 The students protested against the war 41 00:04:06,305 --> 00:04:08,849 on and off campus. 42 00:04:19,067 --> 00:04:23,655 The combatting students and riot police made Tokyo a war zone. 43 00:04:25,407 --> 00:04:31,705 January 1968 Protest against the nuclear-powered USS Enterprise 44 00:04:37,419 --> 00:04:42,758 October 21, 1968 Riot on Anti-War Day 45 00:04:44,092 --> 00:04:47,763 1968 was dubbed the "Political Season." 46 00:04:47,888 --> 00:04:53,852 While some feared a revolution in Japan others wanted one. 47 00:05:04,863 --> 00:05:10,243 One man who observed the riots became concerned about society. 48 00:05:11,787 --> 00:05:14,957 He was Yukio Mishima, the novelist. 49 00:05:18,335 --> 00:05:21,630 Mishima was born in 1925. 50 00:05:22,673 --> 00:05:27,427 While at Gakushuin High School the prodigy wrote a novel, 51 00:05:27,552 --> 00:05:30,597 The Forest in Full Bloom. 52 00:05:31,056 --> 00:05:35,602 He studied law at the University of Tokyo during WWII. 53 00:05:36,353 --> 00:05:40,857 He continued to write and survived the devastation of war. 54 00:05:43,151 --> 00:05:45,362 When Japan lost the war, 55 00:05:45,529 --> 00:05:50,033 the Emperor renounced his divinity. 56 00:05:52,828 --> 00:05:58,000 Mishima quit his Finance Ministry job to focus on writing. 57 00:06:01,503 --> 00:06:06,008 He explored inner turmoil in Confessions of a Mask 58 00:06:07,634 --> 00:06:11,722 and youth in The Temple of the Golden Pavilion 59 00:06:11,847 --> 00:06:14,016 among other masterpieces. 60 00:06:15,767 --> 00:06:18,562 He wrote prolifically for 25 years. 61 00:06:18,645 --> 00:06:23,650 There are 42 volumes in the complete Mishima collection. 62 00:06:23,775 --> 00:06:28,405 World-famous, his books were translated into various languages. 63 00:06:29,489 --> 00:06:31,658 For the sake of my art. 64 00:06:37,122 --> 00:06:42,753 Mishima, the "writer in action" did not only write. 65 00:06:44,379 --> 00:06:48,383 He took up bodybuilding to get a body of steel. 66 00:06:48,508 --> 00:06:52,512 He was proud of his physique and modeled for magazines. 67 00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:56,808 He wrote and directed plays and kabuki. 68 00:06:58,894 --> 00:07:02,940 Be more cunning like you have a hidden motive. 69 00:07:04,024 --> 00:07:07,069 He starred in a yakuza movie. 70 00:07:08,779 --> 00:07:10,656 He did boxing and karate. 71 00:07:12,532 --> 00:07:17,079 Also skilled in kendo, he had 4th dan ranking. 72 00:07:19,873 --> 00:07:22,250 He wielded both pen and sword. 73 00:07:24,127 --> 00:07:28,757 He trained with the Self-Defense Forces 74 00:07:30,384 --> 00:07:34,471 and flew in a jet fighter at supersonic speeds. 75 00:07:38,183 --> 00:07:44,022 During the 1960s Mishima became openly political. 76 00:07:44,815 --> 00:07:49,987 His writings reflected his political beliefs. 77 00:07:54,574 --> 00:07:59,788 In October 1968, Mishima founded a private organization named 78 00:08:01,123 --> 00:08:04,501 "Tatenokai" or the Shield Society. 79 00:08:06,378 --> 00:08:11,800 He recruited students who believed in right-wing nationalism. 80 00:08:15,721 --> 00:08:20,809 Whereas the leftist students wanted a communist revolution 81 00:08:21,435 --> 00:08:23,604 their motto was "anti-revolution". 82 00:08:25,522 --> 00:08:31,111 Mishima and his militia trained with the Self-Defense Forces as 83 00:08:31,820 --> 00:08:34,031 they anticipated conflict. 84 00:08:34,197 --> 00:08:39,911 We need young men who are trained in firearms for an emergency. 85 00:08:40,662 --> 00:08:46,793 He was also writing his magnum opus The Sea of Fertility tetralogy 86 00:08:47,085 --> 00:08:53,425 and was up against Kawabata for Japan's first Nobel Prize in Literature. 87 00:08:57,596 --> 00:09:04,645 In the spring of 1969, Mishima got a phone call. 88 00:09:05,896 --> 00:09:10,067 It was the Zenkyoto branch from the University of Tokyo. 89 00:09:13,528 --> 00:09:17,574 The Zenkyoto branch at the University of Tokyo 90 00:09:17,699 --> 00:09:23,163 was formed in 1968 to reform the school with activism. 91 00:09:25,624 --> 00:09:28,377 On January 18, 1969 92 00:09:29,378 --> 00:09:35,050 riot police dispersed students occupying Yasuda Auditorium. 93 00:09:37,636 --> 00:09:41,181 Students fought back with gasoline bombs but 94 00:09:41,807 --> 00:09:45,269 were contained by tear gas and water cannons. 95 00:09:51,984 --> 00:09:54,861 Zenkyoto was defeated. 96 00:09:57,239 --> 00:10:01,827 Zenkyoto embraced violence to fight the Establishment. 97 00:10:03,328 --> 00:10:07,541 They invited Mishima, a reactionary, to a debate. 98 00:10:07,666 --> 00:10:10,836 Their motives were unclear. 99 00:10:12,879 --> 00:10:14,464 Right vs. left. 100 00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:17,134 Conservatism vs. Radicalism. 101 00:10:18,302 --> 00:10:24,182 A public debate discussing two extreme political views 102 00:10:24,308 --> 00:10:27,144 was a dangerous yet thrilling proposition. 103 00:10:29,479 --> 00:10:34,860 It was to be held in Lecture Hall 900 in Komaba campus 104 00:10:35,777 --> 00:10:41,908 not in Hongo campus where students occupied Yasuda Auditorium. 105 00:10:44,119 --> 00:10:49,541 A poster at the door called Mishima an "Anachronistic Gorilla" 106 00:10:50,792 --> 00:10:54,046 asking for a 100 yen "to feed the beast". 107 00:10:55,714 --> 00:10:58,050 "We'll shut him up with logic and make him" 108 00:10:58,175 --> 00:11:00,385 "commit harakiri on stage." 109 00:11:00,510 --> 00:11:04,931 That's what students said, apparently. 110 00:11:08,226 --> 00:11:12,940 Mishima, the Zenkyoto members and the audience members 111 00:11:13,815 --> 00:11:18,070 waited tensely for the debate to start. 112 00:11:22,658 --> 00:11:26,495 And it started at 2:05 PM. 113 00:11:27,871 --> 00:11:34,670 Chapter 1 Mishima's resolve: Seven enemies 114 00:11:35,754 --> 00:11:39,758 Mishima's opening speech went for over 10 minutes. 115 00:11:39,883 --> 00:11:44,096 1,000 hostile students were occupying the hall. 116 00:11:45,597 --> 00:11:49,518 His conviction was surprising and provocative. 117 00:11:51,979 --> 00:11:56,483 You saw the act of having me on the podium as reactionary... 118 00:11:57,693 --> 00:12:03,699 I guess that I am qualified to be here as I am reactionary. 119 00:12:06,118 --> 00:12:12,249 As the saying goes, "When a man leaves his house he has 7 enemies." 120 00:12:12,374 --> 00:12:16,753 There are more than 7 of you so I needed resolve to come. 121 00:12:17,796 --> 00:12:23,844 On the morning of April 28, I met a man who's part of the "establishment." 122 00:12:23,969 --> 00:12:27,431 He's brilliant but not a top guy. 123 00:12:29,725 --> 00:12:33,478 There was a nationwide anti-war demonstration 124 00:12:34,354 --> 00:12:36,648 on April 28, 1969. 125 00:12:37,149 --> 00:12:42,154 Activists protested in Tokyo and cities across Japan. 126 00:12:43,488 --> 00:12:48,660 As a result, nearly 1,000 students were arrested. 127 00:12:50,954 --> 00:12:56,877 The "establishment" guy said that the protesters were deranged 128 00:12:57,294 --> 00:13:02,883 and that they were idiotic to protest like that. 129 00:13:02,966 --> 00:13:08,472 I'm not saying this to grovel but his remark bothered me. 130 00:13:08,722 --> 00:13:13,477 He can send you to a nuthouse if that's what he wants. 131 00:13:13,810 --> 00:13:20,984 But it's undignified for a government to panic over a bunch of nuts! 132 00:13:22,027 --> 00:13:26,198 I think nutcases should be looked after. 133 00:13:26,365 --> 00:13:31,036 Medicate them. Psychiatric medication has improved. 134 00:13:31,161 --> 00:13:34,122 Lock them up and look after them. 135 00:13:34,247 --> 00:13:38,251 Don't go hurting and killing them. 136 00:13:38,377 --> 00:13:43,256 That's inhumane and unacceptable. 137 00:13:43,340 --> 00:13:48,220 I don't think any of you are nutcases. 138 00:13:48,345 --> 00:13:51,640 I came here with the intention 139 00:13:51,765 --> 00:13:55,060 of seeing if words 140 00:13:55,227 --> 00:14:00,565 are still an effective method of communication. 141 00:14:00,691 --> 00:14:04,152 That's what I came here to verify. 142 00:14:06,697 --> 00:14:11,576 Keiichiro Hirano (44) Novelist 143 00:14:11,743 --> 00:14:18,292 Mishima said that he wanted to see how effective words could be 144 00:14:18,417 --> 00:14:22,087 between people with opposite beliefs. 145 00:14:22,212 --> 00:14:26,383 Which was an essential issue for Mishima. 146 00:14:26,508 --> 00:14:32,014 The impact of his words was a pressing concern for him. 147 00:14:32,139 --> 00:14:34,641 Would they affect reality? 148 00:14:34,725 --> 00:14:39,771 Would his words affect people with opposing beliefs? 149 00:14:39,896 --> 00:14:43,692 That idea intrigued him. 150 00:14:46,987 --> 00:14:51,283 Looking at that man from the establishment 151 00:14:51,408 --> 00:14:57,748 on that morning of April 28, I saw no fear in his eyes. 152 00:14:57,914 --> 00:14:58,915 Fearful eyes 153 00:14:58,999 --> 00:15:01,543 That impressed me. 154 00:15:02,085 --> 00:15:07,466 It made me wonder what it's like on your side. 155 00:15:07,924 --> 00:15:13,555 If I imagine that, I think of the novel, Therese Desqueyroux. 156 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:20,771 In the novel, Therese attempts to poison her husband. 157 00:15:21,063 --> 00:15:24,191 What was her reason? 158 00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:28,737 It's not clear. Maybe she didn't love him. 159 00:15:28,862 --> 00:15:32,032 Maybe she hated him. 160 00:15:32,199 --> 00:15:36,328 It's unclear but she felt compelled to poison him. 161 00:15:36,453 --> 00:15:41,124 The author, Francois Mauriac, explores her psyche. 162 00:15:41,249 --> 00:15:46,338 In the end Therese says, "I wanted to see fear in his eyes." 163 00:15:47,506 --> 00:15:54,805 I guess you want to see fear in the eyes of Japan's establishment. 164 00:15:55,389 --> 00:15:59,059 I do too, from a different angle. 165 00:15:59,643 --> 00:16:02,980 I don't like assured people. 166 00:16:03,105 --> 00:16:08,819 In fact, I don't like this false sense of comfort I have now. 167 00:16:10,404 --> 00:16:16,868 I heard that you all chipped in 100 yen or more for this event. 168 00:16:16,994 --> 00:16:22,624 I don't like how I'm unwittingly helping your fundraising. 169 00:16:24,626 --> 00:16:27,379 It's too political for me. 170 00:16:27,671 --> 00:16:32,509 I'd rather take my share for my Shield Society. 171 00:16:33,093 --> 00:16:40,058 A Liberal Democratic Party politician asked me the other day 172 00:16:40,225 --> 00:16:44,605 to sign a petition against the violence. 173 00:16:46,732 --> 00:16:51,903 I've never protested violence so I told him I couldn't comply. 174 00:16:52,237 --> 00:16:56,783 Left-wing or right, I'm not against violence. 175 00:16:57,367 --> 00:17:01,747 Because of the ironic way 176 00:17:01,872 --> 00:17:05,834 violence affects our society nowadays. 177 00:17:06,001 --> 00:17:11,882 I think that unconditional denial of violence would 178 00:17:12,007 --> 00:17:16,678 only play into the hands of the Communist Party. 179 00:17:16,803 --> 00:17:17,846 I don't like that. 180 00:17:18,472 --> 00:17:25,270 Observing the LDP and the Communist Party join hands 181 00:17:25,395 --> 00:17:28,732 I knew something dreadful was happening. 182 00:17:30,067 --> 00:17:33,695 Observing the University of Tokyo student riots 183 00:17:33,862 --> 00:17:39,201 I never said that I feared violence or that we should deny it. 184 00:17:39,326 --> 00:17:43,997 You won't read that in any of my writings. 185 00:17:44,164 --> 00:17:47,376 The worst part for me was that 186 00:17:47,501 --> 00:17:53,090 after the assembly at Chichibunomiya Rugby Stadium, 187 00:17:53,173 --> 00:17:56,551 your university tried to resume entrance exams. 188 00:17:57,844 --> 00:18:01,890 On January 10, 1969 Acting Chancellor Ichiro Kato 189 00:18:02,015 --> 00:18:07,980 negotiated with communist and non-political students 190 00:18:08,146 --> 00:18:12,401 in an effort to stop the students' strikes 191 00:18:13,026 --> 00:18:16,655 at the University of Tokyo 7-faculty assembly. 192 00:18:20,826 --> 00:18:25,706 The Communist Party and the LDP fell into line. 193 00:18:25,914 --> 00:18:29,751 Not every student is combative and 194 00:18:29,876 --> 00:18:34,631 politicians saw it as an opportunity to end it. 195 00:18:34,965 --> 00:18:39,845 They know that most Japanese don't care about ideology. 196 00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:44,141 They value order over logic and integrity. 197 00:18:44,266 --> 00:18:50,480 Order is more important and the police maintain it. 198 00:18:50,606 --> 00:18:55,944 As long as the police maintain superficial order 199 00:18:56,069 --> 00:18:59,364 left and right-wingers can unify. 200 00:18:59,865 --> 00:19:02,868 A poster on the door calls me 201 00:19:02,993 --> 00:19:05,370 an "Anachronistic Gorilla". 202 00:19:05,662 --> 00:19:07,998 I admit I am primitive. 203 00:19:08,165 --> 00:19:12,961 The politicians' lack of integrity upsets me. 204 00:19:13,712 --> 00:19:18,842 I want the LDP to be reactive and the Communist Party to be violent. 205 00:19:19,009 --> 00:19:21,053 But they hesitate. 206 00:19:22,179 --> 00:19:25,474 That's what frustrates me the most. 207 00:19:25,766 --> 00:19:30,979 I don't know which one of your sects I'll have to fight. 208 00:19:31,104 --> 00:19:34,232 I don't know who my enemy is. 209 00:19:34,399 --> 00:19:37,694 I write about my ideology everywhere 210 00:19:37,819 --> 00:19:40,948 and when the time comes, one must rise. 211 00:19:41,073 --> 00:19:45,410 I don't really agree with the concept of 212 00:19:45,535 --> 00:19:48,956 lawful killings. 213 00:19:49,122 --> 00:19:49,998 Illegal violence 214 00:19:50,248 --> 00:19:53,502 I'm not opposed to the death penalty outright but 215 00:19:53,627 --> 00:19:59,341 I don't want to be the one who kills lawfully. 216 00:19:59,466 --> 00:20:02,970 You see me as part of the establishment 217 00:20:03,095 --> 00:20:08,642 but only the Self-Defense Forces can open fire to disperse a riot. 218 00:20:08,767 --> 00:20:13,772 I'm not one of them but they've been good to me. 219 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,776 I am a civilian. 220 00:20:17,901 --> 00:20:22,906 If I were to act, it would have to be illegal as it is for you. 221 00:20:23,323 --> 00:20:28,745 If I took someone's life in a duel, it'd be murder. 222 00:20:28,870 --> 00:20:35,460 In that case I'd kill myself before I was arrested. 223 00:20:35,585 --> 00:20:38,672 But I don't know when that chance will come 224 00:20:38,797 --> 00:20:42,968 so I work out in preparation to become 225 00:20:43,093 --> 00:20:46,305 the best Anachronistic Gorilla I can be. 226 00:20:47,222 --> 00:20:48,849 That's my resolve. 227 00:20:51,226 --> 00:20:55,522 Mishima at the time said illegal violence was acceptable. 228 00:20:56,481 --> 00:21:01,194 At a debate with Hitotsubashi University students a year earlier 229 00:21:02,029 --> 00:21:05,407 he said, "Political assassination is acceptable" 230 00:21:05,824 --> 00:21:09,494 "in accordance with duel ethics." 231 00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:11,830 This became controversial. 232 00:21:15,042 --> 00:21:18,587 Before I came here today 233 00:21:18,712 --> 00:21:22,466 one of you said that we had something in common. 234 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:26,303 The Mishima and Zenkyoto connection Let me explain what it is. 235 00:21:26,595 --> 00:21:29,431 It's about perceptions of violence. 236 00:21:29,556 --> 00:21:31,850 You League members 237 00:21:32,225 --> 00:21:35,938 theorize physicality through ideology 238 00:21:36,104 --> 00:21:41,360 then find a logical connection with violence. 239 00:21:41,485 --> 00:21:46,531 That's what you said and I agree with you. 240 00:21:46,657 --> 00:21:53,080 We might be able to have a constructive discussion on that point. 241 00:21:53,205 --> 00:21:55,290 That's why I'm here. 242 00:21:55,707 --> 00:21:59,503 In terms of political orientation 243 00:21:59,670 --> 00:22:04,341 you and I are supposed to be polar opposites. 244 00:22:04,466 --> 00:22:07,386 We are but let me tell you this. 245 00:22:07,511 --> 00:22:12,015 Japanese intellectuals believe in ideologies. 246 00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:13,392 Anti-intellectualism 247 00:22:13,684 --> 00:22:16,603 They believe in the superiority of the intellect. 248 00:22:16,812 --> 00:22:23,318 I don't like their belief that they're above humanity, like rulers. 249 00:22:24,361 --> 00:22:29,533 There are many accomplished professors and 250 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:33,662 I always hated seeing their faces. 251 00:22:33,829 --> 00:22:37,791 It might be because I lack intellect and ideology. 252 00:22:37,958 --> 00:22:41,753 I could always smell that snobbery 253 00:22:41,878 --> 00:22:45,340 all over the University of Tokyo. 254 00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:50,637 I don't approve of all of your activism 255 00:22:50,762 --> 00:22:56,226 but you undermine those snobs who act intellectually superior. 256 00:22:56,351 --> 00:22:59,396 I absolutely recognize that. 257 00:23:01,106 --> 00:23:07,195 I'd like to understand what anti-intellectualism means. 258 00:23:07,321 --> 00:23:10,824 Are you so intelligent you're against intellect? 259 00:23:10,991 --> 00:23:16,288 Are you anti-intellect because you're unintelligent? 260 00:23:16,913 --> 00:23:18,999 I don't know which it is. 261 00:23:22,461 --> 00:23:28,133 If Professor Masao Maruyama advocated anti-intellectualism 262 00:23:28,258 --> 00:23:31,261 everyone would be convinced. 263 00:23:31,345 --> 00:23:35,849 But he wouldn't so you guys punched him in the face! 264 00:23:36,892 --> 00:23:40,729 Maruyama was a leading political theorist 265 00:23:40,896 --> 00:23:46,026 whose views on democracy were influential in the post-war years. 266 00:23:46,652 --> 00:23:53,825 The University of Tokyo professor was seen as authoritarian by Zenkyoto. 267 00:23:56,161 --> 00:24:01,875 Where in our mind does anti-intellectualism derive? 268 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,089 Who is entitled to practice anti-intellectualism? 269 00:24:07,214 --> 00:24:10,968 I've always wondered about that. 270 00:24:12,052 --> 00:24:13,345 Tatsuru Uchida (68) 271 00:24:13,428 --> 00:24:15,639 Professor emeritus at Kobe College joined the University of Tokyo in 1970 272 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,227 Mishima talked about anti-intellectualism 273 00:24:20,352 --> 00:24:22,854 which reflects his beliefs. 274 00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:25,524 He praises the students 275 00:24:25,691 --> 00:24:30,821 for deconstructing early 20th century intellectualism. 276 00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:39,037 Then the mic was handed over to a Zenkyoto member. 277 00:24:41,248 --> 00:24:45,961 Unfortunately "violence" is not only defined 278 00:24:46,086 --> 00:24:51,800 on its primitive and visceral origins. 279 00:24:52,009 --> 00:24:55,804 The problem of post-war intellectuals 280 00:24:55,887 --> 00:24:58,724 as Mr. Mishima pointed out 281 00:24:58,849 --> 00:25:02,102 We're not supposed to be deferential... 282 00:25:06,398 --> 00:25:08,859 But hear my excuse. 283 00:25:08,984 --> 00:25:14,448 Mr. Mishima deserves our respect more than our professors. 284 00:25:15,324 --> 00:25:18,076 I hope you can accept my excuse. 285 00:25:20,495 --> 00:25:24,333 I think his critique is spot on. 286 00:25:24,458 --> 00:25:26,710 But he hasn't proven yet 287 00:25:26,835 --> 00:25:32,549 Osamu Kimura was an organizer and the master of ceremony. 288 00:25:32,758 --> 00:25:37,137 He was a 2nd-year student at the University of Tokyo. 289 00:25:39,097 --> 00:25:45,187 I couldn't help being deferential. He was so mild-mannered. 290 00:25:45,395 --> 00:25:47,689 Osamu Kimura (72) Former Zenkyoto member 291 00:25:47,856 --> 00:25:52,110 Mr. Mishima was not at all brash when he talked to us. 292 00:25:52,694 --> 00:25:56,949 He was different from how I expected. 293 00:25:59,701 --> 00:26:04,373 After the monumental defeat at Yasuda Auditorium 294 00:26:04,831 --> 00:26:07,960 Zenkyoto's existence was at stake. 295 00:26:10,504 --> 00:26:14,925 Kimura and the organizers were based at Komaba campus. 296 00:26:15,467 --> 00:26:18,178 As a part of the "bonfire festival" 297 00:26:18,971 --> 00:26:23,016 they planned a public debate. 298 00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:29,189 And they chose Mishima as their guest of honor. 299 00:26:31,817 --> 00:26:36,113 After the occupation of Yasuda Auditorium 300 00:26:36,530 --> 00:26:39,074 Osamu Kimura 301 00:26:39,616 --> 00:26:41,910 Zenkyoto was weakening. 302 00:26:42,619 --> 00:26:46,415 But we wanted to continue as an organization 303 00:26:46,832 --> 00:26:51,586 and we didn't want our activism to be nullified. 304 00:26:52,004 --> 00:26:56,049 So we discussed our strategies and came up with 305 00:26:56,383 --> 00:27:00,345 the idea of the bonfire festival, which Kosaka named. 306 00:27:00,512 --> 00:27:03,849 Shuhei Kosaka A University of Tokyo student 307 00:27:04,224 --> 00:27:06,184 Daisaburo Hashizume (70) Sociologist/Former Zenkyoto member 308 00:27:06,393 --> 00:27:12,274 It was their attempt to have a cultural win after their political defeat. 309 00:27:12,399 --> 00:27:17,154 Our bonfire festival had religious symbolism too. 310 00:27:18,447 --> 00:27:24,369 We were in the mood to burn stale intellectualism. 311 00:27:25,954 --> 00:27:32,127 Mr. Mishima was invited to join us with that intention. 312 00:27:32,252 --> 00:27:38,342 I called at midday but his wife said that he slept during the day. 313 00:27:38,467 --> 00:27:41,928 He'd wake up to write at night 314 00:27:42,095 --> 00:27:46,224 so I was told to call back in the evening. 315 00:27:47,059 --> 00:27:50,854 I called again at around 1 AM... 316 00:27:51,563 --> 00:27:56,860 I thought it'd be late enough. And he answered. 317 00:27:57,903 --> 00:28:01,031 I read his Culture Defense Theory 318 00:28:01,156 --> 00:28:03,408 so I proposed that 319 00:28:03,533 --> 00:28:07,287 we had a public discussion about Japan. 320 00:28:07,829 --> 00:28:09,206 Culture Defense Theory (1968) 321 00:28:09,289 --> 00:28:11,083 Mishima outlines the Emperor's role in restoring Japan's traditions. 322 00:28:11,291 --> 00:28:17,881 Initially I'm sure he thought of us as a bunch of hooligans so 323 00:28:17,965 --> 00:28:20,801 like he said in his speech 324 00:28:20,926 --> 00:28:24,888 he felt like a man who'd accepted a duel. 325 00:28:27,474 --> 00:28:31,603 I'd like to know what the Other means to Mishima. 326 00:28:31,728 --> 00:28:35,899 He called himself an Anachronistic Gorilla. 327 00:28:36,024 --> 00:28:40,487 I think we're all scared of big, hairy gorillas. 328 00:28:40,612 --> 00:28:43,615 No offence intended. 329 00:28:43,699 --> 00:28:47,244 Violent acts cause anxiety. 330 00:28:48,412 --> 00:28:53,417 By merely directing oneself to be violent 331 00:28:54,001 --> 00:29:00,132 would it be effective politically and socially? 332 00:29:00,257 --> 00:29:05,095 What are "Others" in relation to our effectiveness, Mr. Mishima? 333 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:06,179 On others 334 00:29:06,346 --> 00:29:09,558 Killing someone is easy but 335 00:29:09,725 --> 00:29:13,604 you may be killed by someone else. 336 00:29:13,979 --> 00:29:19,776 If you say your identity is ultimately maintained by violence 337 00:29:19,901 --> 00:29:23,322 what are "others" to you? 338 00:29:25,866 --> 00:29:31,204 I hate Jean-Paul Sartre but in Being and Nothingness he asked 339 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:34,750 what is obscene? 340 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,463 He wrote that a woman tied-up defines obscenity. 341 00:29:39,671 --> 00:29:42,758 In Being and Nothingness Sartre analyses 342 00:29:44,259 --> 00:29:48,722 the relation between oneself and the Other. 343 00:29:49,264 --> 00:29:53,101 We only find eroticism in the Other. 344 00:29:53,226 --> 00:29:58,148 And violence is deeply connected to eroticism. 345 00:29:58,273 --> 00:30:01,944 Attraction to the Other is core to eroticism 346 00:30:02,110 --> 00:30:05,864 but the Other is subjective and has a mind. 347 00:30:05,989 --> 00:30:08,951 That gets in the way of eroticism. 348 00:30:09,076 --> 00:30:12,287 So, loving a being with a will 349 00:30:12,412 --> 00:30:16,625 makes equality between genders contradictory. 350 00:30:16,792 --> 00:30:21,505 Because the relationship of achieved love isn't erotic. 351 00:30:21,922 --> 00:30:27,678 When one of them is not free to act or think 352 00:30:28,095 --> 00:30:32,391 it's the most obscene and erotic situation. 353 00:30:32,975 --> 00:30:39,022 I think this is essential to interpersonal relationships. 354 00:30:39,147 --> 00:30:44,111 Let's say the Prime Minister was bound up and sitting here. 355 00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:45,946 It's not erotic. 356 00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,156 Former Prime Minister Eisaku Sato In office 1964-1972 357 00:30:48,448 --> 00:30:51,326 But to treat him violently 358 00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:54,788 isn't something you'd do willingly. 359 00:30:54,955 --> 00:30:59,293 You acknowledge hostility from the Sato administration. 360 00:30:59,418 --> 00:31:03,213 You acknowledge that they have their own mind. 361 00:31:03,297 --> 00:31:09,094 By acknowledging it, you put yourself in a relationship 362 00:31:09,219 --> 00:31:14,600 with others on a nonerotic basis. 363 00:31:14,725 --> 00:31:16,643 Which in my opinion 364 00:31:16,768 --> 00:31:22,566 is not an essential conflict between the self and others 365 00:31:23,025 --> 00:31:25,319 that defines human relationships. 366 00:31:25,402 --> 00:31:30,240 Because technically we want others to be 367 00:31:30,365 --> 00:31:35,996 like a kind of malleable object. 368 00:31:36,163 --> 00:31:39,708 That's how we believe others should be. 369 00:31:39,833 --> 00:31:44,338 We all want others to fit in with us. 370 00:31:44,463 --> 00:31:46,923 So if others don't 371 00:31:47,215 --> 00:31:51,053 the relationship between you and others sours. 372 00:31:51,303 --> 00:31:53,096 It's nonerotic. 373 00:31:53,555 --> 00:32:00,312 But a nonerotic relationship shouldn't result in violence. 374 00:32:00,437 --> 00:32:06,652 It's not violence but the beautiful word you use, "conflict." 375 00:32:07,819 --> 00:32:11,573 A confrontation that involves the self and others. 376 00:32:11,698 --> 00:32:14,910 It's based on the mentality of a duel. 377 00:32:15,410 --> 00:32:21,625 That's why violence committed by students is not really violence. 378 00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:26,129 Let's try to imagine how the police view you. 379 00:32:26,254 --> 00:32:31,760 As I said if you were a bunch of nuts who have no sense of self 380 00:32:31,885 --> 00:32:34,012 the police shouldn't be violent. 381 00:32:34,137 --> 00:32:38,642 But they are, because they acknowledge that you're a subject. 382 00:32:38,767 --> 00:32:42,437 To create such a situation 383 00:32:42,521 --> 00:32:48,568 in which the self and others are forced to relate 384 00:32:48,694 --> 00:32:54,491 and form a relationship without objectifying each other. 385 00:32:54,616 --> 00:32:58,620 This is the only way for the self and others 386 00:32:58,745 --> 00:33:01,665 to enter a relationship. 387 00:33:01,957 --> 00:33:06,461 What I mean is that eroticism is not a relationship. 388 00:33:06,586 --> 00:33:11,383 What it is, is obscenity or lust as Sartre puts it. 389 00:33:11,508 --> 00:33:14,303 You lust for "an object." 390 00:33:14,428 --> 00:33:17,472 But when the self and others 391 00:33:17,597 --> 00:33:22,936 form a relationship there's inevitably conflict. 392 00:33:23,145 --> 00:33:26,565 You asked about my view of the Other. 393 00:33:26,690 --> 00:33:30,235 It's something I've come to crave. 394 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:36,617 As a novelist I aspired to relate to the world erotically. 395 00:33:36,783 --> 00:33:42,039 I did that with my earlier novels. That's why they're 396 00:33:42,164 --> 00:33:45,125 like Kenzaburo Oe's novels. 397 00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:48,962 Then I became tired of it 398 00:33:49,129 --> 00:33:53,550 so I needed a relationship. 399 00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:57,054 A relationship yields conflict 400 00:33:57,179 --> 00:34:00,974 so I had to have a hypothetical Other. 401 00:34:01,141 --> 00:34:06,688 So I decided that communism is my enemy. 402 00:34:08,190 --> 00:34:11,652 And it must remain that way. 403 00:34:11,818 --> 00:34:14,529 Communism is my enemy. 404 00:34:14,696 --> 00:34:18,325 Communism is my subjective Other. 405 00:34:21,370 --> 00:34:27,292 The audience was unaware that the core members of the Shield Society 406 00:34:27,584 --> 00:34:31,922 sneaked in the hall to protect him from assault. 407 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:34,549 Akihiro Hara (71) 408 00:34:34,633 --> 00:34:35,801 Former Shield Society member He was in the front row. 409 00:34:35,884 --> 00:34:40,430 Mr. Mishima would be amongst hostile activists 410 00:34:41,181 --> 00:34:43,183 on their turf. 411 00:34:43,392 --> 00:34:46,561 We thought that something terrible 412 00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:51,024 could happen to him. 413 00:34:51,191 --> 00:34:55,279 We thought it'd be extraterritorial 414 00:34:56,780 --> 00:34:58,407 in a way. 415 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:06,081 The Shield Society opposed communists and their revolution. 416 00:35:06,665 --> 00:35:10,752 They felt hostile towards leftist movements. 417 00:35:13,088 --> 00:35:16,842 The communists wanted a communal society... 418 00:35:16,967 --> 00:35:19,886 That's what the left-wing activists 419 00:35:19,970 --> 00:35:20,721 Yutaka Shinohara (71) 420 00:35:20,804 --> 00:35:21,847 Former Shield Society member Waseda University graduate 421 00:35:21,930 --> 00:35:25,892 The student leagues wanted to achieve that. 422 00:35:27,394 --> 00:35:31,523 So for us they were mortal enemies. 423 00:35:33,942 --> 00:35:37,738 The left-wingers had a big presence 424 00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:42,200 and there were those who didn't like that. 425 00:35:42,326 --> 00:35:43,243 Yukitomo Miyazawa (72) 426 00:35:43,327 --> 00:35:44,494 Former Shield Society member Waseda University graduate 427 00:35:44,661 --> 00:35:46,455 Like us. 428 00:35:47,414 --> 00:35:48,707 Akihiro Hara Former Shield Society member 429 00:35:48,874 --> 00:35:54,421 The University of Tokyo campus was barricaded off that day. 430 00:35:54,546 --> 00:36:00,260 Tokyo University of Foreign Studies graduate Zenkyoto had a security check at the gate, 431 00:36:00,385 --> 00:36:04,222 checking everyone's identification. 432 00:36:07,142 --> 00:36:14,191 Once inside it was their turf. Their signs were everywhere. 433 00:36:14,483 --> 00:36:18,278 Did a communism revolution seem imminent? 434 00:36:18,403 --> 00:36:20,447 Yes. 435 00:36:20,572 --> 00:36:22,824 All university students thought 436 00:36:22,908 --> 00:36:26,161 it might happen any time. 437 00:36:27,204 --> 00:36:31,541 It felt that way when you entered the school gate. 438 00:36:31,708 --> 00:36:34,419 There was danger of a civil war. 439 00:36:35,963 --> 00:36:40,968 I know it sounds like a joke but there really was. 440 00:36:42,594 --> 00:36:46,598 They were called "toy soldiers" but 441 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:52,688 Mishima planned to deploy them when the police failed to contain 442 00:36:52,813 --> 00:36:54,898 the New Left radicals. 443 00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:59,861 Their Self-Defense Force training was genuine. 444 00:37:03,198 --> 00:37:05,534 It was real military training. 445 00:37:06,952 --> 00:37:09,037 What we did... 446 00:37:11,498 --> 00:37:17,671 We did things that Self-Defense recruits wouldn't do. 447 00:37:18,130 --> 00:37:22,259 I'm telling you because enough time has passed. 448 00:37:25,012 --> 00:37:27,973 We used live ammunition. 449 00:37:29,891 --> 00:37:31,560 I don't think 450 00:37:31,685 --> 00:37:37,649 we were allowed to use live ammo. 451 00:37:39,276 --> 00:37:44,031 If the left-wing activists came at us with batons 452 00:37:44,281 --> 00:37:50,662 we thought we could overcome them with our samurai swords. 453 00:37:53,665 --> 00:37:57,878 Zenkyoto also thought that they'd be attacked. 454 00:37:59,046 --> 00:38:00,672 Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member 455 00:38:00,797 --> 00:38:05,052 We had to be prepared for possible violence so 456 00:38:05,177 --> 00:38:07,888 we had around the stage 457 00:38:08,764 --> 00:38:10,599 guys we could trust. 458 00:38:11,016 --> 00:38:15,646 We were afraid of the communists and the Democratic Youths. 459 00:38:15,979 --> 00:38:21,485 It was quite possible that they'd storm in with batons. 460 00:38:24,404 --> 00:38:30,869 The Democratic Youth League was organized by the Communist Party. 461 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:38,418 They opposed Zenkyoto in ideology and sided with the university. 462 00:38:39,461 --> 00:38:44,007 The Democratic Youth League ran Komaba campus. 463 00:38:45,926 --> 00:38:50,973 It was like we were under martial law. 464 00:38:51,098 --> 00:38:55,727 But there weren't enough of them to cover the campus 465 00:38:57,396 --> 00:39:03,443 so we had a little freedom around Lecture Hall 900. 466 00:39:06,321 --> 00:39:12,953 Lecture Hall 900 was miraculously a neutral territory. 467 00:39:18,125 --> 00:39:23,630 Chapter 2 A duel 468 00:39:25,757 --> 00:39:30,262 One of the Zenkyoto members made a proposition. 469 00:39:32,097 --> 00:39:35,392 ...let me present this question. 470 00:39:35,809 --> 00:39:39,896 Man's relationship with nature Let's discuss the idea of man vs. nature. 471 00:39:40,022 --> 00:39:43,025 Based on what he's said so far, 472 00:39:43,150 --> 00:39:45,652 Mr. Mishima's idea of nature 473 00:39:45,819 --> 00:39:49,156 is restricted to the human body 474 00:39:49,281 --> 00:39:53,952 and the will to put one's body to use. 475 00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:59,499 To me, nature isn't tied to humans. It exists before our eyes. 476 00:39:59,625 --> 00:40:04,630 Maybe we can't see it in the city but I believe that it's there. 477 00:40:04,755 --> 00:40:08,383 The kind of nature that rejects humans. 478 00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:11,678 What matters for us is how humans 479 00:40:11,803 --> 00:40:16,850 make the most of nature which can't be controlled. 480 00:40:17,309 --> 00:40:18,727 Excuse me. 481 00:40:19,061 --> 00:40:24,232 In your rhetoric, nature has many definitions. 482 00:40:24,358 --> 00:40:27,569 One is nature, found in rural Nagano. 483 00:40:27,694 --> 00:40:31,865 Another is found in Tokyo's high-rise buildings. 484 00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:35,994 Or do the riot police batons embody nature? 485 00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:39,957 Or an environment where production occurs...? 486 00:40:40,082 --> 00:40:46,672 So if we are to access production via an object 487 00:40:46,797 --> 00:40:51,343 we may also access production through a riot police baton. 488 00:40:51,468 --> 00:40:56,348 If the riot police officer beating you is a farmer's son, 489 00:40:56,473 --> 00:41:00,227 you might find nature in his spirit 490 00:41:00,352 --> 00:41:05,565 through the object he beats you with. 491 00:41:05,857 --> 00:41:08,527 Don't understand nature at all. 492 00:41:08,652 --> 00:41:10,028 Who doesn't? 493 00:41:10,737 --> 00:41:12,990 What do you mean? 494 00:41:13,115 --> 00:41:16,702 You dropped the subjective noun. 495 00:41:16,827 --> 00:41:20,580 That's correct Japanese, but who do you mean? 496 00:41:20,956 --> 00:41:22,291 You don't? 497 00:41:22,416 --> 00:41:26,128 - Or me? - I know what you mean but 498 00:41:27,087 --> 00:41:30,507 you can't clarify anything with that rhetoric. 499 00:41:31,008 --> 00:41:32,884 It's elusive. 500 00:41:33,051 --> 00:41:35,178 I see your point. 501 00:41:38,598 --> 00:41:41,727 The man on stage with his daughter is 502 00:41:41,852 --> 00:41:47,566 Masahiko Akuta, the University of Tokyo-Zenkyoto's best debater. 503 00:41:49,985 --> 00:41:55,282 Take this desk for example. An ordinary, dirty desk. 504 00:41:55,407 --> 00:42:00,996 It's here at the University of Tokyo to be used in lectures. 505 00:42:01,079 --> 00:42:05,751 But it can be repurposed to build a barricade. 506 00:42:05,876 --> 00:42:09,713 Which the desk never dreamed it would be. 507 00:42:09,838 --> 00:42:16,678 Its new purpose is detached from what it was originally. 508 00:42:16,803 --> 00:42:19,139 It has become combative. 509 00:42:19,264 --> 00:42:25,395 When an object is detached from the purpose it was produced for 510 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,858 you awaken to its true modern meaning. 511 00:42:29,983 --> 00:42:35,197 Because you are detached from the chain of production. 512 00:42:35,781 --> 00:42:42,120 And that's how you return to nature, the basis of labor and production. 513 00:42:42,329 --> 00:42:45,415 Is that the impetus for your violence? 514 00:42:45,540 --> 00:42:47,125 Violence... 515 00:42:47,918 --> 00:42:50,879 can't be clearly defined unless it's 516 00:42:51,213 --> 00:42:53,465 Relationality and objects detached from other meanings. 517 00:42:53,590 --> 00:42:54,841 Relationality and objects Sorry? 518 00:42:55,258 --> 00:42:59,554 A desk is a desk in the space defined as university so 519 00:42:59,888 --> 00:43:02,432 no university, no desk. 520 00:43:03,350 --> 00:43:05,185 - An object. - Indeed. 521 00:43:05,310 --> 00:43:08,522 In relational theory, an object 522 00:43:08,647 --> 00:43:12,901 could be a weapon or what we determine it to be. 523 00:43:13,110 --> 00:43:16,863 When relations are inverted it's revolutionary. 524 00:43:17,906 --> 00:43:20,826 A space emerges in those relations. 525 00:43:21,118 --> 00:43:27,040 When you write about a desk, your words weigh the same as the desk 526 00:43:27,165 --> 00:43:29,418 - or it becomes recit or roman. - You're right. 527 00:43:29,584 --> 00:43:30,794 recit = story roman = novel 528 00:43:30,961 --> 00:43:33,213 That's where you were defeated. 529 00:43:33,338 --> 00:43:34,840 Not yet! 530 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,385 That's how it seems to me. 531 00:43:38,552 --> 00:43:39,845 For Mishima 532 00:43:40,095 --> 00:43:44,850 he saw perception as the antithesis of action. 533 00:43:45,601 --> 00:43:50,522 He reached adulthood when Japan lost WWII 534 00:43:50,647 --> 00:43:53,692 and his impression of the survivors 535 00:43:53,817 --> 00:43:58,822 was that they put their perceptions before action. 536 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,828 Keiichiro Hirano Novelist He believed that action should come first. 537 00:44:05,495 --> 00:44:10,459 He thought that by prioritizing perceptions 538 00:44:10,584 --> 00:44:13,253 you'd never touch "actuality." 539 00:44:13,337 --> 00:44:17,716 And as a survivor, he compensated for that tendency. 540 00:44:17,841 --> 00:44:20,969 So Akuta told him he was defeated. 541 00:44:21,136 --> 00:44:24,765 And that highlighted Mishima's dilemma. 542 00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:31,146 Akuta told Mishima that his perceptions weren't real to him. 543 00:44:31,271 --> 00:44:34,191 He was provoking Mishima. 544 00:44:35,817 --> 00:44:40,405 A writer writes. His writings are the objects he produces. 545 00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:44,034 That's the reality of a writer. 546 00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:47,746 Like you say, it has nothing to do with production. 547 00:44:47,913 --> 00:44:48,622 Right. 548 00:44:49,206 --> 00:44:54,336 Writing is detached from the act of production, so existentially 549 00:44:54,461 --> 00:44:56,755 it doesn't relate to us. 550 00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:58,048 Right. 551 00:44:58,215 --> 00:45:00,509 You spoke of "space"... 552 00:45:00,884 --> 00:45:02,844 It's mere Form. 553 00:45:04,930 --> 00:45:07,015 - So I - OK, go on. 554 00:45:07,182 --> 00:45:11,895 That's where I think you lost the game. 555 00:45:12,229 --> 00:45:15,274 The Form you use to express yourself 556 00:45:15,399 --> 00:45:19,236 has as little impact on us as violence. 557 00:45:20,362 --> 00:45:25,784 Our action is Form and content at the same time. 558 00:45:25,909 --> 00:45:30,580 It's just an expression, not a revolution 559 00:45:30,706 --> 00:45:36,920 but history's potential is in the space our action embodied. 560 00:45:37,921 --> 00:45:44,886 That's what we do. Anything you say as a writer is embarrassing. 561 00:45:45,012 --> 00:45:48,348 You want to turn your game into demagogy. 562 00:45:48,473 --> 00:45:51,143 You don't exist without Japan. 563 00:45:51,518 --> 00:45:53,061 - That's me. - Yes. 564 00:45:56,315 --> 00:46:01,862 But my ancestors can not be found in Japan or anywhere else. 565 00:46:01,987 --> 00:46:02,904 Right. 566 00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:07,993 But I'm not a "Stranger." Everyone else became "Strangers." 567 00:46:08,118 --> 00:46:08,910 Right. 568 00:46:09,036 --> 00:46:12,831 So we are ready to advance to the 21st century. 569 00:46:13,915 --> 00:46:17,085 Why kill in order to protect culture? 570 00:46:21,173 --> 00:46:23,592 Masahiko Akuta (73) Former Zenkyoto member 571 00:46:23,717 --> 00:46:26,219 Does the Emperor symbolize culture? 572 00:46:28,555 --> 00:46:35,729 Without addressing those questions Mishima is just a demagogue. 573 00:46:39,358 --> 00:46:42,611 Akuta led an experimental theater group. 574 00:46:42,736 --> 00:46:48,742 He wrote, directed and acted in productions. 575 00:46:50,369 --> 00:46:55,582 He co-published Underground Theatre with Shuji Terayama 576 00:46:55,958 --> 00:46:59,378 and was a pioneer in experimental theater. 577 00:47:00,253 --> 00:47:02,172 I'm an actor. 578 00:47:02,297 --> 00:47:07,135 Changing theater means changing what it means to be human. 579 00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:09,596 It's also about changing the arts. 580 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,556 That's avant-garde. 581 00:47:11,807 --> 00:47:16,561 If the arts can't change, nothing can. 582 00:47:17,437 --> 00:47:22,776 Revolution is the purest form of poetry. 583 00:47:23,443 --> 00:47:25,821 How can you turn 584 00:47:26,488 --> 00:47:29,700 the transcendental into a theory? 585 00:47:29,866 --> 00:47:31,952 With theater. 586 00:47:33,245 --> 00:47:36,039 Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member What Akuta does... 587 00:47:36,832 --> 00:47:38,750 How can I put it? 588 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,547 He deconstructs all established concepts. 589 00:47:44,214 --> 00:47:48,385 He was cutting-edge avant-garde. 590 00:47:49,511 --> 00:47:51,680 Daisaburo Hashizume was with Akuta's theater company 591 00:47:51,847 --> 00:47:54,891 He was also a talented painter. 592 00:47:55,934 --> 00:47:57,769 A true artist. 593 00:47:58,312 --> 00:47:59,313 Akuta Hashizume 594 00:47:59,313 --> 00:48:00,939 Everyone knew that. 595 00:48:07,988 --> 00:48:10,449 Thoughts are a liberated zone. 596 00:48:10,866 --> 00:48:15,287 Intellectuals cultivate beautiful liberated zones 597 00:48:15,412 --> 00:48:21,335 so we felt a responsibility to cultivate it. 598 00:48:21,460 --> 00:48:26,006 We invited Mishima to foster that environment. 599 00:48:26,715 --> 00:48:28,425 To make a liberated zone 600 00:48:28,592 --> 00:48:31,637 we need both new and old ideas. 601 00:48:33,305 --> 00:48:37,142 Let's talk about simpler things. 602 00:48:37,351 --> 00:48:39,770 Something easier to grasp, like a "liberated zone." 603 00:48:40,020 --> 00:48:41,605 Liberated zones 604 00:48:41,855 --> 00:48:43,649 Let's discuss that. 605 00:48:44,232 --> 00:48:50,447 In the moment that an object collides with another object 606 00:48:50,572 --> 00:48:54,826 does a liberated zone emerge in that space? 607 00:48:56,620 --> 00:48:57,913 - Yes. - OK. 608 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:07,214 A "liberated zone" is a place under the revolutionists' control 609 00:49:08,548 --> 00:49:15,555 such as the Yasuda Auditorium during the University of Tokyo riots. 610 00:49:17,265 --> 00:49:21,228 The space, whether it's created or distorted 611 00:49:21,353 --> 00:49:23,605 will temporarily persist 612 00:49:23,730 --> 00:49:26,692 There's no time or relation in space. 613 00:49:26,817 --> 00:49:29,111 - No relation? - Or distortion. 614 00:49:29,236 --> 00:49:34,074 It's the original state. "Returning to nature" as Rousseau put it. 615 00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:35,784 Nature. 616 00:49:36,285 --> 00:49:40,289 So whether the space persists or not 617 00:49:40,372 --> 00:49:42,833 is not important? 618 00:49:43,875 --> 00:49:46,795 There's no time so it can't persist. 619 00:49:46,962 --> 00:49:50,090 Then whether it lasted for 3 minutes 620 00:49:50,215 --> 00:49:54,011 or if it lasted as long as 10 days 621 00:49:54,177 --> 00:49:57,472 there is essentially no difference? 622 00:49:57,597 --> 00:50:01,435 It's wrong to even compare them. 623 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,645 Dimensionally? 624 00:50:03,770 --> 00:50:08,442 Is your work comparable to thousands of years of time? 625 00:50:08,609 --> 00:50:09,985 I think not. 626 00:50:10,110 --> 00:50:15,490 But it's a part of that continuum of time. 627 00:50:15,782 --> 00:50:19,620 I intend to express time, if not space. 628 00:50:19,745 --> 00:50:22,372 If liberated zones express space 629 00:50:22,497 --> 00:50:26,335 I'd like to know how that intersects with time. 630 00:50:26,460 --> 00:50:29,671 So in terms of the tactics of revolution 631 00:50:29,796 --> 00:50:34,217 it'd be good if the liberated zone lasted a week. 632 00:50:34,384 --> 00:50:39,181 So if it lasted for 3 or 4 hours, does that mean 633 00:50:39,306 --> 00:50:42,851 it didn't last or didn't it have to? 634 00:50:42,935 --> 00:50:45,938 Shouldn't revolution be persistent? 635 00:50:46,063 --> 00:50:49,358 I'm not a leader but if I may... 636 00:50:49,483 --> 00:50:54,112 Those who created the zone were failed by it. 637 00:50:54,446 --> 00:50:57,741 Not by the riot police? 638 00:50:57,866 --> 00:50:58,617 No. 639 00:50:58,742 --> 00:51:01,703 Did the zone fail because of objects 640 00:51:01,828 --> 00:51:03,747 or time? 641 00:51:04,164 --> 00:51:09,878 It's the reification of objects and/or space. 642 00:51:10,003 --> 00:51:17,260 Don't reified objects or space negate the existing condition? 643 00:51:17,678 --> 00:51:20,597 It never fails to negate 644 00:51:20,764 --> 00:51:24,977 I disagree because it's relational. Like civilization... 645 00:51:25,102 --> 00:51:30,732 History is an existential way for us to deal with reification. 646 00:51:30,857 --> 00:51:34,319 - History is persistent. - No 647 00:51:35,946 --> 00:51:39,157 It's a space of potential, it's freedom. 648 00:51:39,324 --> 00:51:42,577 However when freedom is given 649 00:51:43,537 --> 00:51:49,710 we often fail, it's a habit reinforced by civilization. 650 00:51:49,835 --> 00:51:55,173 But what we do with barricades is a form of perceiving history. 651 00:51:55,299 --> 00:52:00,137 But we don't perceive like a sniper. We do it with a shotgun. 652 00:52:00,262 --> 00:52:02,514 That's post-Sartre. 653 00:52:03,223 --> 00:52:05,976 So your action is a new perception. 654 00:52:06,310 --> 00:52:10,981 And there is no room for persistence in that perception? 655 00:52:11,064 --> 00:52:13,317 No intention to make it last? 656 00:52:13,442 --> 00:52:16,278 Let's say a cigarette pack is made 657 00:52:16,445 --> 00:52:20,949 and if it disappeared the same moment, you couldn't smoke one! 658 00:52:21,074 --> 00:52:25,912 Time has passed since it was manufactured and sold to me. 659 00:52:26,038 --> 00:52:30,334 Now I can smoke one and pretend to look relaxed. 660 00:52:32,961 --> 00:52:36,423 Due to the time passed since production 661 00:52:36,548 --> 00:52:40,761 You smoke to force time to persist. 662 00:52:42,012 --> 00:52:44,681 I don't have to force it to persist. 663 00:52:44,806 --> 00:52:48,435 But it doesn't persist. And you feel lost because 664 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,813 you're other-directed. 665 00:52:52,898 --> 00:52:56,109 Daisaburo Hashizume Former Zenkyoto member Let me elaborate on what Akuta means. 666 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,571 For him art is above everything. 667 00:52:59,738 --> 00:53:03,867 He has a primal drive to create liberated zones. 668 00:53:05,077 --> 00:53:11,375 Because Akuta believes humanity has become corrupt and tainted. 669 00:53:12,125 --> 00:53:16,630 It's warped and damaged and can't be left like that. 670 00:53:16,755 --> 00:53:20,008 That's not the human truth. 671 00:53:20,717 --> 00:53:25,472 To restore what makes humanity distinct. 672 00:53:26,223 --> 00:53:30,227 And restore our primal condition. 673 00:53:31,353 --> 00:53:36,858 We need a zone where we're liberated and that's what art is. 674 00:53:40,112 --> 00:53:45,951 We may fail but that doesn't make our attempt meaningless. 675 00:53:47,577 --> 00:53:52,791 Akuta wanted to say to Mishima that he lacked faith in his art 676 00:53:52,916 --> 00:53:56,962 so how could he call himself an artist? 677 00:53:58,588 --> 00:54:02,134 Keiichiro Hirano Novelist That was a very remarkable scene. 678 00:54:02,259 --> 00:54:06,555 Mishima gave a lot of thought to the issue of "persistence." 679 00:54:07,973 --> 00:54:14,187 His novels are characterized with moments of ecstasy. 680 00:54:14,313 --> 00:54:21,194 His characters might dream of a momentary achievement. 681 00:54:21,361 --> 00:54:27,367 They rarely spent decades achieving their goal. 682 00:54:29,036 --> 00:54:31,455 Your action falls short. 683 00:54:31,580 --> 00:54:36,335 Everything concludes within relationality, without actuality. 684 00:54:37,294 --> 00:54:42,299 Indeed. Inherently words can not affect actual material. 685 00:54:42,424 --> 00:54:46,261 So I take actions in the attempt to 686 00:54:46,386 --> 00:54:49,139 But as long as you can write 687 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:54,770 you don't have to try demagogy with other activities. 688 00:54:54,978 --> 00:54:57,898 Your writing is autonomous so 689 00:54:58,398 --> 00:55:03,445 But I'm saying that I'm not content with an autonomous space. 690 00:55:03,570 --> 00:55:06,323 I think you're just bluffing! 691 00:55:17,501 --> 00:55:24,174 Ogawa, a TBS reporter, was covering the debate from the front row. 692 00:55:24,633 --> 00:55:26,259 Kunio Ogawa (75) Former TBS Reporter 693 00:55:26,385 --> 00:55:29,179 There's this man who came in with a baby. 694 00:55:29,346 --> 00:55:33,934 Everyone in the hall responded strongly to it. 695 00:55:34,142 --> 00:55:40,482 I still remember how it lightened the tense atmosphere. 696 00:55:40,941 --> 00:55:45,279 Mishima spoke with a lot of humor. My overall impression 697 00:55:45,696 --> 00:55:51,159 of the debate was that it progressed in an unexpected direction. 698 00:55:51,285 --> 00:55:55,414 I was so engaged in the whole thing. 699 00:55:58,166 --> 00:56:03,588 Armed with unique arguments, Akuta didn't hesitate to criticize Mishima. 700 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,843 Why do all writers write like critics today? 701 00:56:07,968 --> 00:56:11,888 The answer relates to where you are and what you see. 702 00:56:12,014 --> 00:56:13,515 And you, Mishima. 703 00:56:14,891 --> 00:56:19,229 We're at a university but if we deny relationality 704 00:56:19,354 --> 00:56:22,316 of all objects 705 00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:25,360 we can't answer the question. 706 00:56:25,485 --> 00:56:29,197 We won't even be able to call this a desk. 707 00:56:29,364 --> 00:56:32,659 There'd be no Lecture Hall 900... 708 00:56:35,537 --> 00:56:39,124 So we pretend that 709 00:56:39,541 --> 00:56:43,795 everything is unavoidably related so that 710 00:56:44,338 --> 00:56:48,216 we can invert that relationality. 711 00:56:49,343 --> 00:56:54,681 That's why we make barricades, to deny relationality. 712 00:56:54,806 --> 00:57:01,939 Then we'd have to define everything in relation to a new viewpoint. 713 00:57:02,898 --> 00:57:07,319 Next time we stage a blockade, there'll be many Blanquists. 714 00:57:07,486 --> 00:57:12,032 It'll be the era of agitators and demagogues. 715 00:57:14,159 --> 00:57:18,163 A revolution on a national scale might fail but 716 00:57:18,288 --> 00:57:25,170 those who are both Blanquists and Trotskyists will succeed. 717 00:57:25,545 --> 00:57:31,176 Then we'd deal with time's actual persistence, as you mentioned. 718 00:57:31,677 --> 00:57:34,304 Then it'll be a form of fiction 719 00:57:36,139 --> 00:57:39,768 that would dominate in the end. 720 00:57:40,102 --> 00:57:42,521 That's why I do theater. 721 00:57:42,854 --> 00:57:45,983 It's one or the other. 722 00:57:46,108 --> 00:57:50,028 Your book, Sun and Steel is what I call "The testicle's spirit." 723 00:57:50,153 --> 00:57:52,239 Sun and Steel (1968) A semi-autobiographical essay 724 00:57:52,364 --> 00:57:54,950 It's about distribution of values. 725 00:57:55,284 --> 00:58:00,038 Excess produce allows a hippy like me to make a baby, 726 00:58:00,163 --> 00:58:01,915 with no job. 727 00:58:03,500 --> 00:58:08,588 Distribution is unequal to objects and people. 728 00:58:10,632 --> 00:58:15,012 Sun and Steel points to that in an infantile way. 729 00:58:16,722 --> 00:58:19,308 Proper distribution of values 730 00:58:19,433 --> 00:58:23,937 can't be realized with our consciousness. 731 00:58:24,062 --> 00:58:26,356 We exist. Objects exist. 732 00:58:26,481 --> 00:58:30,402 Sartre's understanding of image is obsolete. 733 00:58:30,986 --> 00:58:35,490 What we have to do is transcend image with objects. 734 00:58:37,993 --> 00:58:42,706 We tend to see things as images because it's easier. 735 00:58:42,873 --> 00:58:47,794 We try to deal with things with our eyes closed. 736 00:58:48,712 --> 00:58:53,508 Light helps us see beyond an object. 737 00:58:53,675 --> 00:58:58,305 The first step is to realize anything around you is a weapon. 738 00:58:58,972 --> 00:59:02,476 A glass, at a glance, can be a weapon. 739 00:59:02,768 --> 00:59:05,729 It's easier. Some people prefer that. 740 00:59:05,854 --> 00:59:11,234 Is your body a weapon? You have to pursue that potential. 741 00:59:12,778 --> 00:59:16,573 What lies between objects and us? 742 00:59:16,698 --> 00:59:18,617 I can't see anything. 743 00:59:18,909 --> 00:59:25,332 There's supposed to be a nation and people in power but I can't see them. 744 00:59:25,958 --> 00:59:29,753 So that's where I want to start. 745 00:59:32,297 --> 00:59:34,967 That was very interesting. 746 00:59:35,092 --> 00:59:37,219 I have 2 questions. 747 00:59:37,344 --> 00:59:40,847 One is when nothing has a name. 748 00:59:40,973 --> 00:59:46,144 Names are a form of continuation so 749 00:59:46,436 --> 00:59:53,277 without them could we be relationally defined? 750 00:59:53,652 --> 00:59:55,153 And also 751 00:59:55,279 --> 00:59:59,825 we exist, objects exist and we use them. 752 00:59:59,992 --> 01:00:04,830 But can we disregard the teleological point of view? 753 01:00:05,163 --> 01:00:07,457 When we see a spoon 754 01:00:07,582 --> 01:00:12,170 we see its purpose which is to eat food with. 755 01:00:12,379 --> 01:00:16,717 "Can we use things without purpose?" is the question. 756 01:00:18,635 --> 01:00:23,890 Answering the 1st question. Should things be relational? 757 01:00:24,016 --> 01:00:28,478 Not necessarily. It depends. 758 01:00:28,604 --> 01:00:31,690 I mean, why do unnamed objects 759 01:00:31,982 --> 01:00:36,069 end up relational only to be transcended again? 760 01:00:36,194 --> 01:00:39,489 Because we rely on the walker called civilization. 761 01:00:39,865 --> 01:00:43,118 That's exactly how Trotsky failed. 762 01:00:43,452 --> 01:00:44,661 Keiichiro Hirano Novelist 763 01:00:44,786 --> 01:00:49,666 Let's say Akuta managed to create a liberated zone... 764 01:00:49,791 --> 01:00:53,128 if he really wanted to change society, 765 01:00:53,253 --> 01:00:57,674 he'd have to rely on words to systematically change it. 766 01:00:57,799 --> 01:01:05,098 Without words we have no assessment and ability to procure food. 767 01:01:05,265 --> 01:01:09,436 If each object or phenomenon had no name 768 01:01:09,561 --> 01:01:14,983 the system couldn't persist with no logical organization. 769 01:01:15,108 --> 01:01:19,071 That's why Mishima asked about persistency. 770 01:01:19,196 --> 01:01:25,410 If you want your creation to persist you need words. 771 01:01:25,535 --> 01:01:30,791 In that sense, what Mishima did with words has actuality. 772 01:01:31,124 --> 01:01:32,584 Masahiko Akuta Former Zenkyoto member 773 01:01:32,709 --> 01:01:37,214 In a liberated zone, you'd also be liberated from time. 774 01:01:40,008 --> 01:01:44,346 It's dangerous to think that time is absolute. 775 01:01:44,805 --> 01:01:46,390 You mean, history? 776 01:01:46,515 --> 01:01:49,268 History and also power. 777 01:01:51,019 --> 01:01:53,730 A man in power sees things his way. 778 01:01:54,439 --> 01:01:55,565 Right? 779 01:01:55,774 --> 01:02:03,532 Only Mishima would be happy to be trapped in an unliberated time. 780 01:02:07,119 --> 01:02:10,247 An audience member yelled, 781 01:02:10,914 --> 01:02:13,292 "It's all philosophical nonsense!" 782 01:02:13,417 --> 01:02:18,880 "I'm here to see Mishima get beaten up!" 783 01:02:23,468 --> 01:02:24,678 Go on then. 784 01:02:28,015 --> 01:02:32,561 Don't just say that from back there... 785 01:02:35,397 --> 01:02:38,942 Come up here if you want to beat him! 786 01:02:39,192 --> 01:02:40,277 Come on! 787 01:02:41,111 --> 01:02:44,031 - Come on! - Right here. 788 01:02:46,116 --> 01:02:47,659 Go ahead! 789 01:02:50,287 --> 01:02:51,622 Beat him. 790 01:02:52,331 --> 01:02:54,249 Don't back off. 791 01:02:58,170 --> 01:02:59,296 Who do you want? 792 01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:00,922 Me? 793 01:03:01,298 --> 01:03:04,009 - Not you. - I'm game. 794 01:03:05,052 --> 01:03:07,721 - Generally - Use the mic! 795 01:03:08,347 --> 01:03:12,309 By abstracting relationality with no boundaries 796 01:03:12,476 --> 01:03:16,188 you're just toying with ideas. 797 01:03:16,313 --> 01:03:19,316 When there is Man 798 01:03:20,108 --> 01:03:23,654 We inevitably have the Other. 799 01:03:23,779 --> 01:03:26,949 How you formulate an argument is 800 01:03:27,074 --> 01:03:30,327 Relationality is obscenity, moron! 801 01:03:30,577 --> 01:03:34,623 Turning relations upside down is revolutionary! 802 01:03:34,748 --> 01:03:35,499 No. 803 01:03:35,999 --> 01:03:41,463 Existential relations in actual society come first. 804 01:03:41,588 --> 01:03:47,052 You have to build your argument on them, expanding your consciousness. 805 01:03:47,177 --> 01:03:49,221 - But you do it by rejecting - Boring! 806 01:03:49,346 --> 01:03:53,183 the spatial coexistence of the Other. 807 01:03:53,308 --> 01:03:56,937 You give Zenkyoto a bad name! 808 01:03:57,104 --> 01:03:59,898 Don't call yourself a member. 809 01:04:02,484 --> 01:04:05,570 Let me rephrase the point of the argument. 810 01:04:05,696 --> 01:04:08,657 We acknowledge actual relations. 811 01:04:08,782 --> 01:04:12,744 On that condition, when we focus on objects... 812 01:04:12,911 --> 01:04:16,373 When we focus on relationality 813 01:04:16,540 --> 01:04:20,294 and we behave... 814 01:04:22,045 --> 01:04:28,552 as active subjects we can't ignore actual relations. 815 01:04:29,636 --> 01:04:30,721 Masahiko Akuta Former Zenkyoto member 816 01:04:30,846 --> 01:04:35,642 I had 2 Short Peace cigarettes. Mishima had 4. 817 01:04:35,767 --> 01:04:41,106 I finished mine so I took one of his. We smoked 3 each. 818 01:04:41,690 --> 01:04:46,445 I meant to return it but... 819 01:04:49,615 --> 01:04:52,242 Media and World Revolution 820 01:04:52,242 --> 01:04:55,954 In 1968 many political movements were underway 821 01:04:56,413 --> 01:04:59,541 May '68 in Paris all across the world. 822 01:04:59,875 --> 01:05:00,876 The Prague Spring 823 01:05:00,876 --> 01:05:03,545 The televised accounts spread 824 01:05:03,545 --> 01:05:06,131 The American civil rights movement across the world 825 01:05:06,298 --> 01:05:08,258 which roused the activists. 826 01:05:08,383 --> 01:05:12,054 Protesting against the US Army Oji Field Hospital 827 01:05:12,679 --> 01:05:16,099 Eiji Oguma (56) Sociologist Author of 1968 828 01:05:16,350 --> 01:05:21,647 In my opinion, if television didn't exist in 1968 829 01:05:22,147 --> 01:05:26,109 the University of Tokyo student riots 830 01:05:26,234 --> 01:05:30,948 wouldn't have gained national attention. 831 01:05:31,156 --> 01:05:35,911 Because the riots were at the University of Tokyo 832 01:05:36,036 --> 01:05:40,123 it attracted the attention of the news media. 833 01:05:40,248 --> 01:05:45,545 If it had been elsewhere, it wouldn't have been newsworthy. 834 01:05:49,174 --> 01:05:52,928 The news media was present in Lecture Hall 900. 835 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:58,183 Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member I had been interviewed by TBS. 836 01:05:59,017 --> 01:06:04,064 That's why I asked them to come. 837 01:06:04,189 --> 01:06:10,279 The University of Tokyo graduates have their futures mapped out. 838 01:06:10,404 --> 01:06:17,452 But I reject that because it's unfair to taxpayers. 839 01:06:17,577 --> 01:06:23,500 They brought in a powerful light for their camera. 840 01:06:24,334 --> 01:06:26,253 It was blinding. 841 01:06:27,212 --> 01:06:29,298 Kunio Ogawa Former TBS Reporter 842 01:06:29,423 --> 01:06:34,136 Student activism attracted national attention so 843 01:06:34,261 --> 01:06:37,723 we created a team to cover it. 844 01:06:37,848 --> 01:06:43,395 The crew would ask the students about their intentions. 845 01:06:46,648 --> 01:06:49,818 Mishima called Shinchosha Publishing. 846 01:06:50,819 --> 01:06:55,699 They sent a photographer named Hiroshi Shimizu. 847 01:06:57,034 --> 01:06:59,870 Hiroshi Shimizu (84) Photographer 848 01:06:59,995 --> 01:07:04,541 I entered from the right and crossed the stage behind Mishima. 849 01:07:05,542 --> 01:07:09,338 Then I closed in on him from the left. 850 01:07:09,463 --> 01:07:12,966 I got him to look at my camera. 851 01:07:13,925 --> 01:07:20,057 He was very conscious of the camera, as if to say "Go on, shoot more." 852 01:07:20,557 --> 01:07:26,688 So I instinctively snapped more photos. 853 01:07:31,735 --> 01:07:35,447 So the monumental occasion was recorded. 854 01:07:36,281 --> 01:07:41,536 Mishima had a lot of media exposure so he knew the power of media. 855 01:07:41,662 --> 01:07:45,832 He knew how to dazzle people with his looks. 856 01:07:46,708 --> 01:07:49,753 Mishima's strength was his use of photos and the printed word. 857 01:07:49,878 --> 01:07:51,922 Eiji Oguma Sociologist 858 01:07:52,214 --> 01:07:59,429 They enhanced his image as a great literary figure. 859 01:07:59,638 --> 01:08:03,892 He was a world renowned author who also worked out. 860 01:08:04,351 --> 01:08:11,358 He was also anti-intellectual so young people thought he was cool. 861 01:08:11,483 --> 01:08:13,694 "Mishima: Japan's dandiest man. Toshiro Mifune: 2nd place" 862 01:08:13,819 --> 01:08:18,740 Shiine was Mishima's editor so they knew each other very well. 863 01:08:19,241 --> 01:08:21,034 Yamato Shiine (77) 864 01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:23,829 Mishima's editor at Heibon Punch magazine He recounts his first meeting with Mishima. 865 01:08:23,996 --> 01:08:29,835 I'd arrived at the Imperial Hotel first so I waited for him. 866 01:08:30,002 --> 01:08:37,384 When he entered the ballroom, 100 guests turned to look at him. 867 01:08:37,968 --> 01:08:43,223 All eyes were on Mishima. 868 01:08:44,433 --> 01:08:46,685 There was total silence. 869 01:08:46,810 --> 01:08:51,356 The clink of cutlery on plates suddenly stopped and 870 01:08:51,481 --> 01:08:54,234 everyone focused on Mishima. 871 01:08:55,068 --> 01:09:00,240 That's how he was. He was a star. 872 01:09:05,245 --> 01:09:07,706 Jakucho Setouchi (97) Novelist/Buddhist monk Mishima's friend 873 01:09:07,914 --> 01:09:11,501 Before she became a novelist she wrote Mishima fan letters 874 01:09:11,627 --> 01:09:13,920 through which they became friends. 875 01:09:14,379 --> 01:09:18,759 He wrote me back and explained why. 876 01:09:18,884 --> 01:09:23,805 He said it was because he found my letters interesting. 877 01:09:23,889 --> 01:09:29,645 So I tried to make each letter more interesting. 878 01:09:29,811 --> 01:09:32,314 He had a great sense of humor. 879 01:09:32,522 --> 01:09:35,609 I could tell he was a genius. 880 01:09:35,734 --> 01:09:40,405 I have never seen such lively eyes as his! 881 01:09:40,530 --> 01:09:47,162 He was very lean and slight but he had this power. 882 01:09:47,329 --> 01:09:51,291 I'd never seen eyes like his. 883 01:09:51,458 --> 01:09:55,796 When I looked at him I saw the eyes of a genius. 884 01:09:58,924 --> 01:10:04,805 Chapter 3 Mishima and the Emperor 885 01:10:06,890 --> 01:10:11,687 Kosaka, a Zenkyoto member made a bold move 886 01:10:11,770 --> 01:10:17,025 by directing the debate towards Mishima's views on the Emperor. 887 01:10:18,402 --> 01:10:22,823 What is the Emperor to Mishima and the nation to us? 888 01:10:22,948 --> 01:10:27,369 I think we'll get somewhere on that topic. 889 01:10:27,619 --> 01:10:28,870 For example, quite seriously 890 01:10:28,870 --> 01:10:30,372 On Emperor For example, quite seriously 891 01:10:30,580 --> 01:10:34,793 when you guys barricaded off Yasuda Auditorium 892 01:10:34,918 --> 01:10:38,422 if you'd mentioned "Emperor" just once 893 01:10:38,547 --> 01:10:41,842 I'd have joined your cause. 894 01:10:42,009 --> 01:10:44,136 Gladly. 895 01:10:44,261 --> 01:10:48,265 I'm not kidding. I always say this. 896 01:10:48,515 --> 01:10:54,104 The direct democracy of the 1920s and the 30s...that's not right. 897 01:10:54,229 --> 01:10:59,568 The principles of imperial sovereignty and direct democracy 898 01:10:59,693 --> 01:11:02,863 are almost identical. 899 01:11:03,113 --> 01:11:06,033 It's a fantastical concept but 900 01:11:06,158 --> 01:11:10,412 there is one thing both systems have in common. 901 01:11:10,495 --> 01:11:12,623 I'll tell you what it is. 902 01:11:12,748 --> 01:11:15,792 The people 903 01:11:15,959 --> 01:11:19,796 without going through any system of authority, 904 01:11:19,921 --> 01:11:23,467 dreamed of being one with the nation. 905 01:11:23,717 --> 01:11:29,222 There were coups before WWII to achieve this but they failed. 906 01:11:29,473 --> 01:11:34,227 Before WWII, the word, "Emperor" prefaced intentions. 907 01:11:34,353 --> 01:11:39,942 You don't have it today. You think it'd serve no purpose. 908 01:11:40,067 --> 01:11:44,404 Have you thought about how the word "Emperor" 909 01:11:44,529 --> 01:11:48,033 affects Japan's lower class? 910 01:11:48,158 --> 01:11:53,747 If you think about it, the word, "Emperor" is unambiguous. 911 01:11:53,872 --> 01:11:58,001 It might make the impossible possible. 912 01:11:58,418 --> 01:12:02,631 I guess it's clear that when I mention the "Emperor" 913 01:12:02,756 --> 01:12:09,304 it isn't His Majesty who I have in mind as that entity. 914 01:12:10,305 --> 01:12:14,309 - I want to change that. - He's the establishment! 915 01:12:14,434 --> 01:12:16,228 Good point! 916 01:12:16,353 --> 01:12:19,648 - To do it - Bandits should die in prison! 917 01:12:19,773 --> 01:12:23,110 That's true. However 918 01:12:23,235 --> 01:12:25,904 I, the Emperor, have plenty to eat. 919 01:12:26,071 --> 01:12:28,532 Only communists would say 920 01:12:28,657 --> 01:12:30,826 such a vulgar thing. 921 01:12:30,951 --> 01:12:34,246 Yes, the people you don't like. 922 01:12:34,413 --> 01:12:39,209 The Emperor is not as bourgeois as you'd assume. 923 01:12:39,334 --> 01:12:45,799 If he was bourgeois, your revolution would've been easier. 924 01:12:45,924 --> 01:12:48,969 That's why it's difficult. 925 01:12:49,428 --> 01:12:55,058 Both you and I struggle with the same difficulty. 926 01:12:55,183 --> 01:12:57,769 It involves all social classes. 927 01:12:57,894 --> 01:13:00,939 Is the solution's name, Emperor? 928 01:13:01,106 --> 01:13:03,817 I don't know, but I call it that. 929 01:13:03,942 --> 01:13:07,863 None of us will succeed unless we understand this. 930 01:13:08,572 --> 01:13:12,034 To him, the Emperor represented power. 931 01:13:13,243 --> 01:13:17,748 He saw it as a way of bringing salvation to Japan. 932 01:13:18,582 --> 01:13:21,960 As an embodiment of Japanese culture. 933 01:13:22,628 --> 01:13:27,924 Culminating with the Emperor. 934 01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:32,471 A source of energy that compels us unconsciously. 935 01:13:32,596 --> 01:13:38,644 A symbol that would be the focus of energy. 936 01:13:38,769 --> 01:13:44,816 A political symbol, I suppose. Mishima called it "the Emperor." 937 01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,613 You think what I do is embarrassing. 938 01:13:49,738 --> 01:13:54,952 Wearing military gear and training with SDF soldiers. 939 01:13:55,077 --> 01:14:00,582 But to me, you're just as embarrassing, dressed like cleaners. 940 01:14:01,124 --> 01:14:08,131 I believe that your action is just as invalid as mine. 941 01:14:09,091 --> 01:14:12,844 Killing one another might bring validity. 942 01:14:12,970 --> 01:14:15,847 If this is the time, we'll do that. 943 01:14:15,973 --> 01:14:20,978 That'd be the only way for us to reach a conclusion. 944 01:14:24,898 --> 01:14:28,402 Survivor's guilt 945 01:14:28,527 --> 01:14:34,700 Those born in the 1930s all shared similar issues. 946 01:14:34,825 --> 01:14:38,620 They were teenagers when Japan lost the war. 947 01:14:38,745 --> 01:14:43,292 Boys were resigned to dying in the war. 948 01:14:43,417 --> 01:14:48,797 They grew up accepting that's how their life would be. 949 01:14:48,922 --> 01:14:54,469 In their childhood, the fate of the nation was tied to their own. 950 01:14:54,594 --> 01:14:57,180 But that ended on August 15, 1945. 951 01:14:57,306 --> 01:15:01,852 Suddenly you and the nation were separate entities. 952 01:15:01,935 --> 01:15:06,398 Japan lost its sovereignty and was subordinate to America. 953 01:15:06,773 --> 01:15:09,192 Tatsuru Uchida Professor emeritus at Kobe College 954 01:15:09,401 --> 01:15:14,323 They want it how it was before. Their own fate was synchronized with that of the nation. 955 01:15:14,448 --> 01:15:20,662 It gave them a sense of elation. They missed that euphoria 956 01:15:20,787 --> 01:15:25,125 and wanted to experience it again. 957 01:15:26,168 --> 01:15:27,919 Keiichiro Hirano Novelist 958 01:15:28,045 --> 01:15:33,592 Mishima spent his teenage years towards the end of WWII. 959 01:15:33,884 --> 01:15:40,932 Many of Mishima's contemporaries sacrificed their lives for the Emperor. 960 01:15:41,058 --> 01:15:48,565 He wondered about his role as a survivor, which became his theme. 961 01:15:48,690 --> 01:15:53,654 In his 30s Mishima made a tremendous effort to adapt 962 01:15:53,779 --> 01:15:58,742 to the transforming post-war society. 963 01:15:58,867 --> 01:16:05,415 Then in his 40s he started to think about the Emperor again. 964 01:16:05,540 --> 01:16:10,921 He reconsidered the Emperor's role and had a paradigm shift. 965 01:16:11,046 --> 01:16:14,341 He used to think that the Emperor 966 01:16:14,466 --> 01:16:18,804 presented an obstruction to reality. 967 01:16:18,929 --> 01:16:23,392 But then he saw that inherent conflict with reality 968 01:16:23,517 --> 01:16:29,940 could be used as a basis to criticize reality. 969 01:16:31,108 --> 01:16:35,112 Japanese culture as symbolized by the Emperor 970 01:16:35,237 --> 01:16:41,118 could be used to criticize post-war corruption in Japan. 971 01:16:41,201 --> 01:16:45,080 That was Mishima's new viewpoint in his 40s. 972 01:16:45,205 --> 01:16:52,170 That's why he told the students to consider what the Emperor stands for, 973 01:16:52,254 --> 01:16:55,882 before criticizing reality. 974 01:16:57,092 --> 01:16:58,135 Eiji Oguma Sociologist 975 01:16:58,260 --> 01:17:03,140 The student activists could only laugh in reaction. 976 01:17:03,223 --> 01:17:05,517 Why was that? 977 01:17:05,809 --> 01:17:11,064 It was so abrupt that they didn't even feel disturbed. 978 01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:16,903 Laughing released their tension as they didn't know how to respond. 979 01:17:17,029 --> 01:17:19,531 I think that's how it was. 980 01:17:21,575 --> 01:17:24,286 The mortal Emperor 981 01:17:24,411 --> 01:17:29,249 is just a political symbol in his role now. 982 01:17:29,374 --> 01:17:31,293 Your point is...? 983 01:17:31,418 --> 01:17:34,379 So I want Emperors to 984 01:17:34,504 --> 01:17:38,550 restore the divine roots of the past. 985 01:17:38,675 --> 01:17:42,304 I want to restore how it was back then. 986 01:17:42,429 --> 01:17:45,849 And you want to be at one with that ethos? 987 01:17:45,974 --> 01:17:46,725 Yes. 988 01:17:46,850 --> 01:17:51,355 That's onanistic, of image and the self. 989 01:17:51,688 --> 01:17:54,441 You'd be defenseless against objects. 990 01:17:54,650 --> 01:17:58,320 Let me tell you about Japanese culture 991 01:17:58,403 --> 01:18:02,407 You can't transcend being Japanese. 992 01:18:02,532 --> 01:18:04,451 - That's OK. - Is it? 993 01:18:04,576 --> 01:18:09,623 I am Japanese. I was born that way and I'll die that way. 994 01:18:09,748 --> 01:18:12,334 I don't want to go beyond that. 995 01:18:12,876 --> 01:18:13,877 I don't. 996 01:18:15,045 --> 01:18:18,382 - You might pity me for that - I do. 997 01:18:18,507 --> 01:18:20,550 - As a Japanese - It's fantasy. 998 01:18:20,717 --> 01:18:23,720 I don't want to be anything besides Japanese. 999 01:18:23,887 --> 01:18:28,767 So where is this object known as Japanese? 1000 01:18:29,017 --> 01:18:31,436 Go abroad and you'll find it. 1001 01:18:31,561 --> 01:18:37,317 If you're fluent in English, you forget that you're Japanese. 1002 01:18:37,442 --> 01:18:40,028 You see a reflection of a man 1003 01:18:40,153 --> 01:18:43,824 in a shop window with a long torso and a flat nose. 1004 01:18:43,949 --> 01:18:46,952 There's a Japanese...it's me! 1005 01:18:47,577 --> 01:18:49,496 Every time I go abroad 1006 01:18:49,663 --> 01:18:53,875 But that's impossible unless you're an object. 1007 01:18:54,001 --> 01:18:56,128 To escape your nationality? 1008 01:18:56,253 --> 01:18:59,214 You don't have nationality. 1009 01:19:00,215 --> 01:19:04,845 In that case, you are free which I admire. 1010 01:19:04,970 --> 01:19:09,182 But I can't escape my nationality as Japanese. 1011 01:19:09,308 --> 01:19:11,268 I think it's my fate. 1012 01:19:11,393 --> 01:19:15,022 You can't escape what you're related to. 1013 01:19:15,314 --> 01:19:17,149 Nor history. 1014 01:19:17,274 --> 01:19:21,028 - No, I'd rather - Stay in history? 1015 01:19:21,153 --> 01:19:23,280 I find it delightful. 1016 01:19:24,573 --> 01:19:26,742 - In a fantasy? - Yes. 1017 01:19:27,075 --> 01:19:30,621 You take action only after you kill someone. 1018 01:19:30,746 --> 01:19:33,582 - But maybe you won't. - I agree. 1019 01:19:33,707 --> 01:19:36,627 I've come to have that mentality. 1020 01:19:37,961 --> 01:19:40,297 I'm leaving. I'm bored. 1021 01:19:41,590 --> 01:19:44,051 Sorry. See you. 1022 01:19:44,551 --> 01:19:49,181 Let's discuss perception further. 1023 01:19:49,306 --> 01:19:54,603 Mr. Mishima said beauty goes beyond time and space 1024 01:19:55,020 --> 01:19:56,939 Tatsuru Uchida Professor emeritus at Kobe College 1025 01:19:57,064 --> 01:20:01,360 He was very earnest about persuading those 1,000 students. 1026 01:20:01,485 --> 01:20:05,906 Mishima remained very fair to the students. 1027 01:20:06,031 --> 01:20:11,328 He never tried to corner them or trick them with rhetoric 1028 01:20:11,453 --> 01:20:14,247 or point out their contradictions. 1029 01:20:14,331 --> 01:20:17,668 That can't be underrated. 1030 01:20:21,797 --> 01:20:25,050 Mishima and young people 1031 01:20:25,175 --> 01:20:30,097 Mishima sought out young people's company around this time. 1032 01:20:31,014 --> 01:20:34,184 He attended debates at universities. 1033 01:20:35,978 --> 01:20:42,150 And he trained, interacted and ate with the Shield Society. 1034 01:20:42,901 --> 01:20:45,279 Yutaka Shinohara Former Shield Society member 1035 01:20:45,404 --> 01:20:48,240 He threw himself into whatever he did. 1036 01:20:50,909 --> 01:20:55,622 We were around 20 whereas he was in his 40s. 1037 01:20:55,747 --> 01:20:59,001 We had more stamina than him but 1038 01:20:59,710 --> 01:21:04,548 he trained as hard as us no matter how intense it was. 1039 01:21:05,132 --> 01:21:07,926 Often he did better than any of us young members. 1040 01:21:08,135 --> 01:21:10,262 Hara Mishima Shinohara Miyazawa 1041 01:21:10,470 --> 01:21:16,476 He never went easy on himself. We were drawn to his integrity. 1042 01:21:19,021 --> 01:21:20,897 Yukitomo Miyazawa Former Shield Society member 1043 01:21:21,023 --> 01:21:22,774 Let me explain my impression of Mr. Mishima. 1044 01:21:22,899 --> 01:21:28,947 I'd heard that he disliked young people. 1045 01:21:29,072 --> 01:21:34,620 But then I learned that wasn't true at all. 1046 01:21:34,745 --> 01:21:41,251 It was impressionable young people that he didn't like. 1047 01:21:43,045 --> 01:21:47,341 Those who were susceptible to trends. 1048 01:21:48,008 --> 01:21:50,260 Followers. 1049 01:21:51,136 --> 01:21:55,682 He didn't like young people without personal awareness. 1050 01:21:59,353 --> 01:22:02,481 Shiine, Mishima's editor for Heibon Punch 1051 01:22:02,606 --> 01:22:06,151 mocked Mishima's swordsmanship in an article. 1052 01:22:06,568 --> 01:22:09,821 Mishima's response surprised him. 1053 01:22:10,656 --> 01:22:12,199 Yamato Shiine 1054 01:22:12,324 --> 01:22:16,036 I wrote that he was only as good as the 1st dan. 1055 01:22:16,161 --> 01:22:19,748 That his 4th dan ranking was just honorary. 1056 01:22:19,915 --> 01:22:24,169 The moment the magazine was out he phoned me. 1057 01:22:25,212 --> 01:22:30,509 With no mention of my article, he invited me to kendo practice. 1058 01:22:30,634 --> 01:22:36,515 I said OK and he offered to be my kendo mentor. 1059 01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:41,770 So we practiced at Himonya dojo for 150 minutes 1060 01:22:42,062 --> 01:22:47,276 every Sunday for 2 years. 1061 01:22:48,068 --> 01:22:49,528 Akihiro Hara Former Shield Society member 1062 01:22:49,695 --> 01:22:53,615 We'd go to the dojo at Itabashi Police Department. 1063 01:22:54,491 --> 01:22:56,118 To practice. 1064 01:22:56,243 --> 01:23:01,581 After every practice we went to a sushi restaurant 1065 01:23:01,790 --> 01:23:05,460 in front of the police station. 1066 01:23:06,128 --> 01:23:11,466 I was a university student so it was a luxury 1067 01:23:11,675 --> 01:23:15,887 that I couldn't normally afford. 1068 01:23:16,013 --> 01:23:17,597 Big fatty tuna... 1069 01:23:19,766 --> 01:23:20,976 on rice. 1070 01:23:21,602 --> 01:23:23,729 A lot of it! 1071 01:23:24,938 --> 01:23:28,734 I'd never had anything so delicious. 1072 01:23:28,859 --> 01:23:33,864 He treated us after every practice. 1073 01:23:34,406 --> 01:23:36,325 Yukitomo Miyazawa Former Shield Society member 1074 01:23:36,450 --> 01:23:39,036 He said that we were inexperienced with women 1075 01:23:39,161 --> 01:23:42,706 so we met him at a designated place. 1076 01:23:42,831 --> 01:23:48,337 We wondered what it was... Then we arrived to find 1077 01:23:48,712 --> 01:23:54,593 that he'd invited many stewardesses to join us! 1078 01:23:54,718 --> 01:23:56,845 We had no uniforms then... 1079 01:23:59,097 --> 01:24:01,642 He stayed with us all night. 1080 01:24:04,436 --> 01:24:09,107 Sometimes he showed a strict side. 1081 01:24:10,442 --> 01:24:13,070 Yutaka Shinohara Former Shield Society member 1082 01:24:13,195 --> 01:24:16,073 There was a guy who wrapped his torso with a cloth 1083 01:24:16,365 --> 01:24:21,745 and died after stabbing himself in the heart. 1084 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:27,876 He was my schoolmate's friend. So I told the story 1085 01:24:28,001 --> 01:24:30,337 to Mr. Mishima. 1086 01:24:30,712 --> 01:24:34,424 He asked me why he killed himself. 1087 01:24:34,675 --> 01:24:39,596 I told him maybe because he had a nervous breakdown. 1088 01:24:42,474 --> 01:24:44,059 That enraged him. 1089 01:24:48,438 --> 01:24:53,902 "That's what everyone says when they commit suicide!" 1090 01:24:57,698 --> 01:25:00,784 "It's never that easy!" he shouted. 1091 01:25:03,287 --> 01:25:05,914 He was red with anger. 1092 01:25:08,250 --> 01:25:10,711 Jakucho Setouchi was Mishima's friend 1093 01:25:10,836 --> 01:25:14,381 I think he was very fond of young people. 1094 01:25:14,548 --> 01:25:17,843 He was gentle. The way he looked at them... 1095 01:25:17,968 --> 01:25:23,724 He listened to them carefully and responded earnestly. 1096 01:25:23,890 --> 01:25:26,351 He was a gentle soul. 1097 01:25:30,230 --> 01:25:34,234 Mishima talked about something unexpected. 1098 01:25:34,818 --> 01:25:38,447 At the risk of being mocked by you 1099 01:25:38,572 --> 01:25:41,575 please hear me out. 1100 01:25:41,992 --> 01:25:45,037 When I was young the war started. 1101 01:25:45,162 --> 01:25:47,289 His memory of the Emperor 1102 01:25:47,414 --> 01:25:51,501 I saw the Emperor sit perfectly still for 3 hours on a stage. 1103 01:25:51,627 --> 01:25:55,797 It was at my graduation. He was like a statue. 1104 01:25:55,922 --> 01:25:59,009 And he gave me a silver watch. 1105 01:26:01,136 --> 01:26:05,807 When Mishima graduated from Gakushuin as a valedictorian 1106 01:26:06,099 --> 01:26:09,853 he received a silver watch from the Emperor. 1107 01:26:10,771 --> 01:26:13,273 So I feel a connection. 1108 01:26:13,398 --> 01:26:20,072 I didn't want to tell you this but that's my personal history. 1109 01:26:20,238 --> 01:26:23,033 I can't deny its impact. 1110 01:26:23,158 --> 01:26:26,578 The Emperor was so regal. 1111 01:26:26,870 --> 01:26:33,210 Mishima was emotionally ambivalent about the Showa Emperor. 1112 01:26:33,710 --> 01:26:38,799 In the debate and in The Voices of the Heroic Dead 1113 01:26:38,924 --> 01:26:45,222 he had critical things to say about the Emperor. 1114 01:26:45,472 --> 01:26:47,891 The Voices of the Heroic Dead (1966) Soldier spirits put a curse on the Emperor 1115 01:26:48,308 --> 01:26:49,893 Keiichiro Hirano Novelist 1116 01:26:50,018 --> 01:26:52,187 On the other hand he repeatedly talked about 1117 01:26:52,312 --> 01:26:55,857 how the Emperor was absolutely still 1118 01:26:55,983 --> 01:27:01,071 at Mishima's school and how impressive it was. 1119 01:27:01,238 --> 01:27:05,784 His ambivalence makes it hard to relate to his story. 1120 01:27:05,867 --> 01:27:12,582 But when Mishima was a boy, the Emperor did have an impact on him. 1121 01:27:12,749 --> 01:27:18,588 That impression stayed with him all those years. 1122 01:27:20,090 --> 01:27:23,302 Then Kosaka struck back. 1123 01:27:25,178 --> 01:27:30,475 He said that if everyone shared the concept of "Emperor" 1124 01:27:30,726 --> 01:27:34,730 then the concept wouldn't need a name. 1125 01:27:36,273 --> 01:27:39,359 Emperor as a concept My logic is consistent so 1126 01:27:39,901 --> 01:27:42,487 I demand an answer. 1127 01:27:44,948 --> 01:27:48,160 I recognize that you're being logical 1128 01:27:48,285 --> 01:27:51,580 but I follow persistence, not logic. 1129 01:27:51,705 --> 01:27:54,082 I've come this far so... 1130 01:27:56,251 --> 01:27:58,629 I won't budge. 1131 01:27:58,754 --> 01:28:02,382 You didn't defeat me with logic. 1132 01:28:02,507 --> 01:28:05,636 I kept saying "Emperor" and 1133 01:28:05,761 --> 01:28:09,431 if you'd said "Emperor" I'd have joined you. 1134 01:28:09,556 --> 01:28:15,020 But you didn't, so I have to keep saying "fight to death." 1135 01:28:17,731 --> 01:28:19,816 Tatsuru Uchida Professor emeritus at Kobe College 1136 01:28:19,983 --> 01:28:23,737 Mishima knew that their political differences weren't the issue. 1137 01:28:23,904 --> 01:28:27,199 The Zenkyoto movement 1138 01:28:27,324 --> 01:28:32,829 was less left-wing than the Communist and Socialist Parties. 1139 01:28:34,039 --> 01:28:37,709 So it wasn't really about "right" or "left." 1140 01:28:37,793 --> 01:28:41,880 Their activism in 1968 and 1969 was an extension 1141 01:28:42,005 --> 01:28:46,635 of protests against Japan's Security Treaty with US. 1142 01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:49,846 It was anti-US patriotism. 1143 01:28:50,514 --> 01:28:54,351 Mishima was an insightful man 1144 01:28:54,476 --> 01:28:59,523 so he knew that the student activists were nationalists. 1145 01:28:59,648 --> 01:29:01,817 They had that in common. 1146 01:29:02,276 --> 01:29:04,569 Masahiko Akuta Former Zenkyoto member 1147 01:29:04,695 --> 01:29:06,989 I guess it was never about who was left or right-wing. 1148 01:29:07,114 --> 01:29:12,995 Mishima was upset because the right-wingers turned to America. 1149 01:29:13,412 --> 01:29:17,916 He considered joining Zenkyoto because 1150 01:29:18,041 --> 01:29:20,627 we both wanted independence. 1151 01:29:21,295 --> 01:29:26,383 But on the ridiculous condition that we accept his Emperor. 1152 01:29:26,508 --> 01:29:31,847 If it wasn't about being right or left who was your mutual enemy? 1153 01:29:32,681 --> 01:29:33,890 It was... 1154 01:29:35,559 --> 01:29:38,312 the ambiguous and obscene Japan. 1155 01:29:47,029 --> 01:29:50,282 They thought they were mortal enemies 1156 01:29:50,490 --> 01:29:53,493 but they were fighting a mutual enemy. 1157 01:29:55,996 --> 01:30:01,710 Final Chapter Passion 1158 01:30:04,087 --> 01:30:08,967 After discussing various topics the debate was coming to an end. 1159 01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:15,349 Let's conclude the debate. We'll ask Mr. Mishima his thoughts 1160 01:30:15,474 --> 01:30:17,851 and wrap up today's debate. 1161 01:30:17,976 --> 01:30:19,353 And then 1162 01:30:20,270 --> 01:30:24,691 I'd like to ask a personal favor, Mr. Mishima. 1163 01:30:24,816 --> 01:30:27,277 I want you to join our cause. 1164 01:30:27,402 --> 01:30:30,280 Remember what you told us. 1165 01:30:30,405 --> 01:30:36,662 If we'd responded to you and said "Emperor" you'd join us. 1166 01:30:38,580 --> 01:30:40,582 He continued. 1167 01:30:42,542 --> 01:30:47,464 He said that he'd mentioned "Emperor" in the debate 1168 01:30:48,131 --> 01:30:51,093 so if Mishima was to keep his word 1169 01:30:51,510 --> 01:30:54,304 he should join Zenkyoto and fight together. 1170 01:30:58,058 --> 01:31:02,854 What you've said has impressed me deeply. 1171 01:31:02,980 --> 01:31:08,860 In terms of deconstructing established concepts 1172 01:31:08,986 --> 01:31:13,991 I've been a part of it for a long time 1173 01:31:14,116 --> 01:31:17,619 with my literature. 1174 01:31:17,744 --> 01:31:24,209 And now you treat me as an embodiment of established concepts. 1175 01:31:24,376 --> 01:31:28,547 That makes me feel... 1176 01:31:28,672 --> 01:31:32,759 Happy? No, but whatever it is I feel it. 1177 01:31:34,636 --> 01:31:40,017 In regard to you mentioning the word "Emperor" 1178 01:31:40,142 --> 01:31:43,604 it shows the spiritual effect of words. 1179 01:31:43,729 --> 01:31:47,899 For you, saying the word "Emperor" aloud was despicable 1180 01:31:48,066 --> 01:31:52,029 but during the 2-hour long debate 1181 01:31:52,195 --> 01:31:56,950 many of you repeated "Emperor," whatever the intention. 1182 01:31:57,075 --> 01:32:02,205 My word flew in the hall with wings and invited your words. 1183 01:32:02,331 --> 01:32:06,835 I don't know how the spirit of my word resonated with you 1184 01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:11,965 but I leave now with the resonance of the word. 1185 01:32:12,090 --> 01:32:15,177 It's a question unanswered. 1186 01:32:15,302 --> 01:32:20,432 I believe in your passion, if nothing else. 1187 01:32:20,557 --> 01:32:24,937 I believe in it and I want you to understand that. 1188 01:32:27,105 --> 01:32:29,775 Will you join our cause? 1189 01:32:30,108 --> 01:32:31,860 Will you? 1190 01:32:33,528 --> 01:32:37,115 That question is mere sophistry. 1191 01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:41,286 I'm very tempted but I refuse to join you. 1192 01:32:43,622 --> 01:32:45,248 That concludes it. 1193 01:32:53,674 --> 01:32:56,969 Mishima leaving Lecture Hall 900 1194 01:32:57,135 --> 01:33:00,889 "Meeting Zenkyoto members" 1195 01:33:01,014 --> 01:33:05,143 "was pleasurable," Mishima wrote in an article. 1196 01:33:06,186 --> 01:33:12,693 He directly took on the 1,000 student activists. 1197 01:33:13,777 --> 01:33:17,155 Daisaburo Hashizume Former Zenkyoto member 1198 01:33:17,281 --> 01:33:24,121 This big name in the literary world called Yukio Mishima came to visit us. 1199 01:33:24,413 --> 01:33:29,167 He came to our turf to have a debate with us. 1200 01:33:29,501 --> 01:33:34,464 To see who'd win the argument or be persuaded. 1201 01:33:34,589 --> 01:33:37,509 And he did it very seriously. 1202 01:33:38,343 --> 01:33:43,932 We had different opinions but he was very respectful. 1203 01:33:44,141 --> 01:33:48,937 I'm sure everyone felt that it was a big present. 1204 01:33:49,688 --> 01:33:51,940 Yukitomo Miyazawa Former Shield Society member 1205 01:33:52,316 --> 01:33:54,151 He said that it was exciting. 1206 01:33:56,403 --> 01:34:01,533 He kept saying that. He sounded very satisfied. 1207 01:34:02,868 --> 01:34:04,536 Tatsuru Uchida Professor emeritus at Kobe College 1208 01:34:04,786 --> 01:34:06,163 He said he believed in their passion. 1209 01:34:06,330 --> 01:34:09,958 He had a big expectation of the students. 1210 01:34:10,083 --> 01:34:14,463 He wanted them to come closer to his point of view. 1211 01:34:14,588 --> 01:34:19,509 He invited them in, in his provocative way. 1212 01:34:19,635 --> 01:34:23,680 Like he confessed his love to them. 1213 01:34:24,139 --> 01:34:25,849 Keiichiro Hirano Novelist 1214 01:34:25,974 --> 01:34:29,561 Ultimately we need words to change society. 1215 01:34:30,187 --> 01:34:34,733 Only words can modify the system of a society. 1216 01:34:34,858 --> 01:34:39,196 The debaters explored the meaning of words... 1217 01:34:39,863 --> 01:34:45,744 That was the most significant aspect of the debate. 1218 01:34:45,869 --> 01:34:50,999 It's remarkable that they didn't stick to one side of the argument 1219 01:34:51,124 --> 01:34:54,503 or antagonize their opponent. 1220 01:34:54,670 --> 01:34:59,716 They acknowledged when their opponent had a point. 1221 01:34:59,883 --> 01:35:04,596 They admitted when they didn't quite get it. 1222 01:35:07,265 --> 01:35:11,311 With objectivity we can help each other 1223 01:35:12,020 --> 01:35:15,732 present our thoughts and ideas. 1224 01:35:16,275 --> 01:35:18,944 Masahiko Akuta Former Zenkyoto member 1225 01:35:19,152 --> 01:35:24,074 I was an artist more than a student. And I was proud to be an artist. 1226 01:35:25,325 --> 01:35:26,868 And him... 1227 01:35:28,662 --> 01:35:34,293 He earned his place in this world, no matter how vulgar it is. 1228 01:35:34,876 --> 01:35:37,087 With a pencil. 1229 01:35:38,547 --> 01:35:40,841 And yet... 1230 01:35:41,925 --> 01:35:48,015 He empathized with our ideals despite our differences. 1231 01:35:52,185 --> 01:35:56,315 A conversation requires respect. 1232 01:35:57,024 --> 01:36:00,694 You can't engage with someone you hate. 1233 01:36:00,986 --> 01:36:07,159 Words were more powerful in connecting people in those days. 1234 01:36:07,284 --> 01:36:09,244 - Like media? - Yes. 1235 01:36:15,834 --> 01:36:20,839 Kimura, the MC, called Mishima a while after the debate. 1236 01:36:21,798 --> 01:36:25,385 And he received an unexpected proposition. 1237 01:36:25,510 --> 01:36:29,848 He asked me to join the Shield Society. 1238 01:36:31,433 --> 01:36:37,522 And I didn't answer in a straightforward manner. 1239 01:36:37,648 --> 01:36:43,403 I was making excuses about our different political views. 1240 01:36:43,528 --> 01:36:48,367 But I didn't just say "No." 1241 01:36:48,700 --> 01:36:53,747 I remember I couldn't be honest. I was evasive. 1242 01:36:53,830 --> 01:36:58,877 And Mr. Mishima was sharp! He asked me, "Where are you?" 1243 01:37:00,921 --> 01:37:05,008 He guessed that I was with someone. 1244 01:37:05,258 --> 01:37:08,887 I was with the woman I would marry. 1245 01:37:09,096 --> 01:37:14,685 So I told him that I was calling from my girlfriend's place. 1246 01:37:16,478 --> 01:37:21,275 He told me to hand her the phone and they spoke for 5 minutes. 1247 01:37:22,693 --> 01:37:26,863 My wife didn't tell me what they talked about. 1248 01:37:27,531 --> 01:37:31,326 Only recently, after nearly 50 years of marriage 1249 01:37:31,702 --> 01:37:35,247 she remembered what Mishima told her. 1250 01:37:39,334 --> 01:37:42,212 He asked her if she loved me. 1251 01:37:42,587 --> 01:37:45,382 And she answered that she did. 1252 01:37:45,674 --> 01:37:50,220 She never told me that! I had to wait 50 years. 1253 01:37:55,851 --> 01:38:00,397 November 25, 1970 One and a half years after the debate 1254 01:38:01,023 --> 01:38:03,942 Listen to me! 1255 01:38:04,067 --> 01:38:08,905 Mishima took the commanding general hostage at Ichigaya Camp 1256 01:38:09,156 --> 01:38:12,451 to persuade the 1,000 SDF soldiers 1257 01:38:13,118 --> 01:38:19,499 to join his cause in a coup and revise the Constitution. 1258 01:38:22,544 --> 01:38:27,883 The soldiers ignored his appeal. 1259 01:38:30,260 --> 01:38:35,140 Mishima hailed the Emperor and committed ritual suicide. 1260 01:38:37,935 --> 01:38:44,816 A Shield member who'd guarded him at the debate also killed himself. 1261 01:38:44,942 --> 01:38:47,110 Morita was his name. 1262 01:38:47,736 --> 01:38:53,241 Masakatsu Morita Shield Society member 1263 01:38:53,367 --> 01:38:57,621 The two of them committed suicide. 1264 01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:00,749 - Where? - In the Commandant's office. 1265 01:39:01,833 --> 01:39:04,711 They both killed themselves. 1266 01:39:04,836 --> 01:39:06,129 How? 1267 01:39:06,463 --> 01:39:09,341 Did they slash their stomachs? 1268 01:39:16,473 --> 01:39:17,641 Yutaka Shinohara Former Shield Society member 1269 01:39:17,766 --> 01:39:19,768 No one... 1270 01:39:21,228 --> 01:39:26,316 No one thought that would happen at that time. 1271 01:39:30,612 --> 01:39:32,990 Akihiro Hara Former Shield Society member 1272 01:39:33,699 --> 01:39:38,245 I was listening to the radio when they went to Ichigaya Camp to carry it out. 1273 01:39:38,370 --> 01:39:40,080 I was like, "What?" 1274 01:39:40,664 --> 01:39:45,711 I was so shocked I returned to Tokyo immediately. 1275 01:39:46,169 --> 01:39:48,463 Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member 1276 01:39:48,588 --> 01:39:50,841 He often said that he'd die when the time came. 1277 01:39:51,675 --> 01:39:53,093 So... 1278 01:40:00,559 --> 01:40:04,896 I was told by someone that I was pale... 1279 01:40:05,022 --> 01:40:07,149 like I'd seen a ghost. 1280 01:40:08,275 --> 01:40:10,235 Jakucho Setouchi Novelist/Buddhist monk 1281 01:40:10,527 --> 01:40:14,573 I was shocked and I thought what a waste of talent... 1282 01:40:16,366 --> 01:40:18,577 I cried. 1283 01:40:19,036 --> 01:40:21,204 Yamato Shiine Mishima's editor 1284 01:40:21,538 --> 01:40:25,667 What can I say... I wasn't disappointed or sad. 1285 01:40:25,792 --> 01:40:28,253 All I felt was... 1286 01:40:29,379 --> 01:40:34,968 Emptiness. That everything had gone... 1287 01:40:35,552 --> 01:40:37,638 Masahiko Akuta Former Zenkyoto member 1288 01:40:37,763 --> 01:40:40,349 Mishima had a headband on. I thought he was up to his silly stuff. 1289 01:40:40,557 --> 01:40:43,560 Then he died. I thought, "Good." 1290 01:40:43,685 --> 01:40:44,853 Good? 1291 01:40:45,187 --> 01:40:47,272 His wish had come true! 1292 01:40:48,273 --> 01:40:51,902 That was his finale and he'd done it right. 1293 01:40:56,907 --> 01:40:59,826 At Lecture Hall 900 on that day 1294 01:41:00,035 --> 01:41:04,456 Mishima actually prophesied his future. 1295 01:41:04,998 --> 01:41:10,128 If I were to act, it would have to be illegal as it is for you. 1296 01:41:10,337 --> 01:41:15,842 If I took someone's life in a duel, it'd be murder. 1297 01:41:15,968 --> 01:41:22,391 In that case I'd kill myself before I was arrested. 1298 01:41:24,518 --> 01:41:26,561 He killed himself 1299 01:41:27,938 --> 01:41:31,441 in the apolitical mood of 1970 1300 01:41:31,608 --> 01:41:35,821 in the wake of Osaka Expo's success. 1301 01:41:37,823 --> 01:41:41,410 The New Left groups feuded among themselves 1302 01:41:41,994 --> 01:41:45,998 resulting in the Asama mountain lodge siege. 1303 01:41:48,583 --> 01:41:52,713 After that, radical activism lost its momentum 1304 01:41:53,088 --> 01:41:57,009 and the Zenkyoto movement was defeated. 1305 01:41:58,927 --> 01:42:02,889 How did the members reflect on their activism? 1306 01:42:05,267 --> 01:42:06,935 Kunio Ogawa Former TBS Reporter 1307 01:42:07,060 --> 01:42:11,982 I wonder that, too. I'd love to ask your interview subjects. 1308 01:42:12,524 --> 01:42:14,776 Kunio Ogawa Former TBS Reporter 1309 01:42:15,277 --> 01:42:18,155 What did those revolutionaries think about the whole thing? 1310 01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:22,284 I'm fascinated to know. I'd like to ask them. 1311 01:42:23,285 --> 01:42:25,662 Tatsuru Uchida Professor emeritus at Kobe College 1312 01:42:25,787 --> 01:42:29,541 In taverns in the mid 70s, young drunk office workers 1313 01:42:29,666 --> 01:42:35,172 would grumble that they used to be revolutionaries. 1314 01:42:35,297 --> 01:42:38,634 Probably 90% of those eager activists 1315 01:42:38,759 --> 01:42:45,515 grew out of it and got ahead with a slight sense of guilt. 1316 01:42:45,641 --> 01:42:49,019 I don't know what they were thinking. 1317 01:42:49,311 --> 01:42:52,689 What moral code they followed 1318 01:42:52,814 --> 01:42:57,361 and what they made of their youth is a mystery to me. 1319 01:42:57,819 --> 01:43:00,697 Some describe it as a "defeat." 1320 01:43:00,864 --> 01:43:03,116 Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member 1321 01:43:03,867 --> 01:43:10,123 I don't think so, in general it was just that it dispersed. 1322 01:43:10,874 --> 01:43:12,918 It took me years. 1323 01:43:15,212 --> 01:43:16,838 For a while... 1324 01:43:20,634 --> 01:43:26,223 I kept asking myself, "What am I doing with my life?" 1325 01:43:44,616 --> 01:43:46,618 Osamu Kimura Former Zenkyoto member 1326 01:43:46,743 --> 01:43:49,830 Any movement eventually ends in success or failure. 1327 01:43:50,664 --> 01:43:55,752 It ends but those who participated in it will go on. 1328 01:43:56,044 --> 01:43:58,130 Society goes on. 1329 01:43:58,297 --> 01:44:04,136 The results of a social movement might disappoint its participants. 1330 01:44:04,553 --> 01:44:09,474 It might make them feel defeated or ruin their lives. 1331 01:44:09,641 --> 01:44:14,813 They might look back and play down its significance. 1332 01:44:14,938 --> 01:44:21,695 Some might find other things to pursue in their lives. 1333 01:44:21,903 --> 01:44:25,657 There's not one way to deal with its results but 1334 01:44:26,491 --> 01:44:29,369 they should remember what happened. 1335 01:44:31,330 --> 01:44:35,250 How can you remember it if you're dead? 1336 01:44:36,251 --> 01:44:41,340 It didn't end with Zenkyoto members killing themselves. 1337 01:44:41,965 --> 01:44:45,552 If a battle ends in inevitable loss 1338 01:44:45,719 --> 01:44:50,057 we have to ponder what we'll do after that. 1339 01:44:50,932 --> 01:44:55,062 I'm dealing with it in my own way. 1340 01:44:56,229 --> 01:44:57,314 Masahiko Akuta Former Zenkyoto member 1341 01:44:57,481 --> 01:45:00,317 It was generally regarded as a defeat 1342 01:45:00,442 --> 01:45:04,321 Who cares how you regard it in your country! 1343 01:45:05,364 --> 01:45:07,407 Not in my country. 1344 01:45:08,241 --> 01:45:12,788 I'm living proof. I exist in my country. 1345 01:45:12,913 --> 01:45:15,791 I don't exist in your country. 1346 01:45:16,333 --> 01:45:18,210 You're proof because 1347 01:45:18,543 --> 01:45:20,212 I'm here, breathing. 1348 01:45:21,296 --> 01:45:25,050 I'm speaking here, I'm not imitating anyone. 1349 01:45:26,218 --> 01:45:27,260 You see? 1350 01:45:38,480 --> 01:45:42,276 Lecture Hall 900 is still standing. 1351 01:45:43,777 --> 01:45:48,407 On that day the hall was filled with 1352 01:45:49,324 --> 01:45:53,912 Mishima's, the Zenkyoto debaters' and the 1,000 audience members' 1353 01:45:54,162 --> 01:45:59,126 passion, respect and words. 1354 01:46:02,379 --> 01:46:06,717 How will you confront the world and choose to live? 1355 01:46:06,842 --> 01:46:12,889 They explored meaning by exchanging words. 1356 01:46:15,017 --> 01:46:17,477 50 years have passed. 1357 01:46:27,404 --> 01:46:32,034 What would Mishima say to us if he was here today? 1358 01:46:35,912 --> 01:46:41,043 I believe in your passion, if nothing else. 1359 01:46:41,209 --> 01:46:45,589 I believe in it and I want you to understand that. 1360 01:46:49,301 --> 01:46:55,724 Times change but what remains is a passion to improve. 1361 01:46:57,142 --> 01:46:59,519 All we need is 1362 01:47:00,103 --> 01:47:04,983 passion, respect and words. 1363 01:47:06,485 --> 01:47:13,825 That's the truth we found in Lecture Hall 900, 50 years later. 1364 01:47:26,046 --> 01:47:32,094 Osamu Kimura became a civil servant for a Tokyo ward. 1365 01:47:32,219 --> 01:47:38,267 Now retired, he mulls over the mystery of Mishima's death. 1366 01:47:44,439 --> 01:47:50,404 Shuhei Kosaka became a cram school lecturer and wrote philosophy books. 1367 01:47:50,529 --> 01:47:56,493 He died at 60 in 2007 from acute heart failure. 1368 01:48:03,292 --> 01:48:09,339 Masahiko Akuta is a director for Homofictus theatre troupe. 1369 01:48:09,464 --> 01:48:15,512 Multi-talented Akuta still writes, directs, performs and dances. 1370 01:48:21,810 --> 01:48:34,281 Yukio Mishima died in 1970 at 45. 1371 01:48:40,162 --> 01:48:45,000 The members of the Shield Society hold a memorial 1372 01:48:45,125 --> 01:48:51,298 for Mishima and Masakatsu Morita every year on November 25. 1373 01:49:01,558 --> 01:49:04,645 Yukio Mishima 1374 01:49:49,648 --> 01:49:53,610 Development & Produced by Takashi Hirano 1375 01:49:54,653 --> 01:49:58,615 Produced by Mei Takeuchi, Tetsuhiro Tone 1376 01:51:15,025 --> 01:51:20,030 Directed by Keisuke Toyoshima 1377 01:51:24,910 --> 01:51:29,623 c2020 "Mishima: The Last Debate" Film Partners 112103

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