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DAVID PAULIDES: How do you
put this behind you
and move forward?
2
00:00:23,823 --> 00:00:27,026
That's something I ask
each missing person family
3
00:00:27,060 --> 00:00:29,496
because I don't understand
how you can do that.
4
00:00:29,529 --> 00:00:31,297
-I can't.
-Yeah.
5
00:00:31,331 --> 00:00:34,834
I mean, you know,
I want some type of closure.
6
00:00:34,868 --> 00:00:36,669
I want him to be found.
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00:00:39,572 --> 00:00:41,841
DAVID:
One of the most
confusing and frustrating
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00:00:41,875 --> 00:00:43,309
investigations
by law enforcement
9
00:00:43,343 --> 00:00:45,078
is related to people
who disappear
10
00:00:45,111 --> 00:00:47,147
in highly rural locations,
11
00:00:47,180 --> 00:00:51,351
forests, plains,
deserts and regions
with few residences.
12
00:00:52,352 --> 00:00:54,287
These cases
offer no witnesses,
13
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,724
few clues
and a strange lack of
evidence.
14
00:00:57,757 --> 00:00:59,225
Where are these people?
15
00:00:59,259 --> 00:01:01,828
How did they disappear
without leaving a scent trail,
16
00:01:01,861 --> 00:01:05,632
no tracks
and a distinct
lack of physical evidence.
17
00:01:05,665 --> 00:01:07,801
The investigators left
with the distraught family
18
00:01:07,834 --> 00:01:11,204
grieving about a missing
loved one, wanting them found,
19
00:01:11,237 --> 00:01:13,039
where many times
the search area
20
00:01:13,072 --> 00:01:14,841
is the size
of a national forest.
21
00:01:16,342 --> 00:01:17,644
My name is David Paulides.
22
00:01:17,677 --> 00:01:19,679
I'm a former
San Jose police officer
23
00:01:19,712 --> 00:01:22,649
who has worked with complex
and long term investigations,
24
00:01:22,682 --> 00:01:25,251
while being assigned
to Vice & Intelligence,
25
00:01:25,285 --> 00:01:28,721
street crimes, SWAT,
and various detective roles.
26
00:01:29,389 --> 00:01:30,590
I'm a bestselling author,
27
00:01:30,623 --> 00:01:33,693
investigating missing people
in national parks, forests
28
00:01:33,726 --> 00:01:36,529
and rural locations
for over 20 years.
29
00:01:36,563 --> 00:01:38,698
The investigative process
has led me to interview
30
00:01:38,731 --> 00:01:41,167
incredible witnesses
that tell a fantastic story
31
00:01:41,201 --> 00:01:43,436
that challenges
the investigative protocols
32
00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:45,271
every detective follows.
33
00:01:45,305 --> 00:01:48,041
We are staring
at unconventional
possibilities
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00:01:48,074 --> 00:01:49,776
supported by witnesses, video
35
00:01:49,809 --> 00:01:52,312
and most recently,
our own government.
36
00:01:59,018 --> 00:02:02,388
The human species
has been watching the Earth
for thousands of years.
37
00:02:02,422 --> 00:02:04,524
Hunting, gathering
and observing.
38
00:02:05,725 --> 00:02:07,794
From the moment
we left our cave,
39
00:02:07,827 --> 00:02:09,128
we have looked to the skies
40
00:02:09,162 --> 00:02:10,296
in amazement and wonder
41
00:02:10,330 --> 00:02:12,432
about unidentified objects.
42
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,535
MAN 1: Are you recording?
43
00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:18,605
MAN 2: What's that?
44
00:02:18,638 --> 00:02:20,807
DAVID:
In just
the last 100-plus years,
45
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,009
we have left the ground
and flown into the clouds
46
00:02:23,042 --> 00:02:25,845
with a different perspective
about our life in this world.
47
00:02:29,816 --> 00:02:32,986
DAVID: We've
continued to be amazed
and perplexed by flying
objects
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00:02:33,019 --> 00:02:34,787
that have capabilities
far beyond
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00:02:34,821 --> 00:02:37,156
what our government
says is ours.
50
00:02:37,190 --> 00:02:39,225
Are these crafts
piloted by entities
51
00:02:39,259 --> 00:02:40,727
that have our best interests?
52
00:02:42,495 --> 00:02:44,531
Is our planet
merely the ant farm
53
00:02:44,564 --> 00:02:47,233
for complex societies
light years from Earth?
54
00:02:48,368 --> 00:02:51,704
Could it be we offer
other worlds new DNA
55
00:02:51,738 --> 00:02:55,008
that's needed to refurbish
their existence?
56
00:02:55,041 --> 00:02:59,846
Or are they driven by a plan
that is so far beyond
our capability to comprehend
57
00:02:59,879 --> 00:03:02,515
that the human mind
isn't programmed to accept
58
00:03:02,549 --> 00:03:04,651
and live with
the consequences?
59
00:03:04,684 --> 00:03:06,819
Join me
on a fact finding journey
60
00:03:06,853 --> 00:03:08,288
that has never been disclosed.
61
00:03:08,321 --> 00:03:10,390
Keep an open mind
on the possibilities
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00:03:10,423 --> 00:03:12,191
and a warm
and compassionate heart
63
00:03:12,225 --> 00:03:13,493
for the missing.
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00:03:17,864 --> 00:03:19,933
GEORGE KNAPP:
In multiple
Missing 411
books,
65
00:03:19,966 --> 00:03:23,670
it looks like people
are snatched out of
off the ground
66
00:03:23,703 --> 00:03:25,838
and then some of them
are dropped back
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00:03:25,872 --> 00:03:27,340
into these locations.
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00:03:27,373 --> 00:03:29,275
The little kids
that are suddenly,
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00:03:29,309 --> 00:03:30,944
miles and miles away.
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00:03:30,977 --> 00:03:33,646
It seems like, I know
you don't want to commit
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00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,150
to any particular explanation
72
00:03:37,183 --> 00:03:41,387
because you don't
have enough evidence to
to point at one in particular.
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00:03:41,421 --> 00:03:42,922
But some of this stuff
74
00:03:42,956 --> 00:03:46,192
certainly ventures
into the area of the
paranormal
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00:03:46,225 --> 00:03:48,428
and, uh, and one
of the stories
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00:03:48,461 --> 00:03:51,431
that I was able to
break earlier this year
was about Skinwalker Ranch,
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00:03:51,464 --> 00:03:55,535
that, a program that had been
created by the Pentagon
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00:03:55,568 --> 00:03:58,204
uh, to look at UFOs
79
00:03:58,237 --> 00:04:01,174
also went much further
than it studied,
80
00:04:01,207 --> 00:04:04,644
we would call
paranormal events,
unexplained mysteries
81
00:04:04,677 --> 00:04:07,447
at places like
Skinwalker Ranch
and elsewhere.
82
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,749
And earlier this year
I was invited to go back
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00:04:09,782 --> 00:04:13,753
by Senator Harry Reid
to meet with two people
whose names I cannot,
84
00:04:14,387 --> 00:04:15,688
cannot make public.
85
00:04:15,722 --> 00:04:17,957
One of these guys
pulls me aside
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00:04:17,991 --> 00:04:19,759
and then he said,
87
00:04:19,792 --> 00:04:21,861
"You know, we think
that that guy David Paulides
88
00:04:21,894 --> 00:04:25,765
"that uh, that his mystery
with these missing people
89
00:04:25,798 --> 00:04:28,134
"might be related
to the phenomenon
at the ranch."
90
00:04:28,868 --> 00:04:30,903
But the idea that
the phenomena
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00:04:30,937 --> 00:04:32,205
that's been seen there,
92
00:04:32,238 --> 00:04:34,073
which is sometimes playful
93
00:04:34,107 --> 00:04:35,541
and sometimes dangerous,
94
00:04:35,575 --> 00:04:38,378
might be related
to yours, startled me.
95
00:04:38,411 --> 00:04:40,213
And I don't know
how you react to that,
96
00:04:40,246 --> 00:04:42,682
but maybe
it makes you uncomfortable
97
00:04:42,715 --> 00:04:45,418
uh, being associated
with anything as weird as
that,
98
00:04:45,451 --> 00:04:47,020
but your stuff's
pretty weird, too.
99
00:04:47,053 --> 00:04:48,388
[RECORDER CLICK OFF]
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00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:54,427
DAVID:
So after reviewing
several thousand
missing person cases,
101
00:04:54,460 --> 00:04:57,697
several distinct facts
started to come up.
102
00:04:57,730 --> 00:05:00,700
And I started to put
piles of these reports
103
00:05:00,733 --> 00:05:02,435
in different areas
of my room
104
00:05:02,468 --> 00:05:07,140
that indicated
certain points of importance.
105
00:05:07,173 --> 00:05:09,842
And after a while I started
to call these, "profile
points".
106
00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:15,381
As an example, in 97%
of the cases that I research,
107
00:05:15,415 --> 00:05:16,716
one of the profile points,
108
00:05:16,749 --> 00:05:19,185
is that canines
brought to the scene
109
00:05:19,218 --> 00:05:21,688
can't pick up a scent trail.
110
00:05:21,721 --> 00:05:25,692
They bring trackers
to the scene
and they can't find tracks
111
00:05:25,725 --> 00:05:28,728
leaving the location
that the person
was last seen at.
112
00:05:28,761 --> 00:05:30,730
So the number
one profile point
113
00:05:30,763 --> 00:05:33,366
in our work
is lack of scent trail.
114
00:05:33,399 --> 00:05:35,535
Some of the most
common profile points
115
00:05:35,568 --> 00:05:37,603
would be
weather related issues,
116
00:05:37,637 --> 00:05:39,939
either just as
the person disappears
117
00:05:39,972 --> 00:05:42,141
or just after they're,
they're missing,
118
00:05:42,175 --> 00:05:46,012
or when the search starts,
there's a weather incident
119
00:05:46,045 --> 00:05:50,750
that inhibits
the searchers ability
to find the individual.
120
00:05:50,783 --> 00:05:54,153
Another one is
the victim's found in an area
121
00:05:54,187 --> 00:05:55,988
that was previously searched.
122
00:05:56,022 --> 00:05:58,958
Oftentimes an area
will be searched
123
00:05:58,991 --> 00:06:01,027
five, six, seven times,
124
00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:03,396
and then all of a sudden
when they're getting
ready to pull out,
125
00:06:03,429 --> 00:06:05,198
the search and rescue
says we give up,
126
00:06:05,231 --> 00:06:07,867
they find the person
in the middle of the area
127
00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:11,003
that had been searched
many, many times.
128
00:06:11,037 --> 00:06:12,772
Oftentimes when
somebody goes missing,
129
00:06:12,805 --> 00:06:15,575
they go missing
in an area near water,
130
00:06:15,608 --> 00:06:18,678
or boulders or
swamps and bogs.
131
00:06:18,711 --> 00:06:21,748
And once
these profile points
were established,
132
00:06:21,781 --> 00:06:25,985
and this is after reading
thousands of reports,
I started to document them.
133
00:06:26,018 --> 00:06:29,756
And say, "Okay, if these
are gonna be the profile
points
134
00:06:29,789 --> 00:06:32,158
"that we use moving forward,
then these will be the ones
135
00:06:32,191 --> 00:06:34,927
"that we have to look for
in the reports
as they come in."
136
00:06:34,961 --> 00:06:39,432
This has become
the overshadowing criteria
137
00:06:39,465 --> 00:06:41,501
for a Missing 411 case.
138
00:06:43,302 --> 00:06:44,837
And in this instance
139
00:06:44,871 --> 00:06:46,973
we're in Vancouver,
British Columbia,
140
00:06:47,006 --> 00:06:50,109
and we are researching
a case of a missing hunter,
141
00:06:50,143 --> 00:06:53,613
someone who had visited
the same location,
142
00:06:53,646 --> 00:06:55,948
20 times in 20 years.
143
00:06:55,982 --> 00:06:58,951
It's a location
that he and his wife
have come to many times.
144
00:06:58,985 --> 00:07:02,288
In this instance,
he came out alone.
145
00:07:02,321 --> 00:07:04,924
He brought his dogs,
his camper,
146
00:07:04,957 --> 00:07:07,493
and his raft,
to do a little fishing,
147
00:07:07,527 --> 00:07:10,797
sightseeing
and just relaxing in nature.
148
00:07:10,830 --> 00:07:15,034
And he disappeared
on the shores of Harrison
Lake.
149
00:07:15,067 --> 00:07:19,138
And we still don't know
what really happened
to Ray Salmen.
150
00:07:19,172 --> 00:07:22,508
DANIELA SALMEN:
Ray
was an outdoor
camper-hunter-fisherman.
151
00:07:22,542 --> 00:07:25,077
Grew up in the woods,
northern Ontario.
152
00:07:25,111 --> 00:07:30,116
Uh, very experienced
and a safe outdoorsman.
153
00:07:30,149 --> 00:07:31,984
Thirty-two years,
we were married together.
154
00:07:32,018 --> 00:07:34,020
For about
a year-and-a-half
before that,
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00:07:34,053 --> 00:07:36,689
he would have rather gone
hunting, camping with me
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00:07:36,722 --> 00:07:37,690
than with anyone else.
157
00:07:37,723 --> 00:07:38,925
He was always telling me that.
158
00:07:38,958 --> 00:07:41,060
But I am a fair
weather camper.
159
00:07:41,093 --> 00:07:42,962
I would not have been
out in the bush
160
00:07:42,995 --> 00:07:45,798
if it wasn't for Ray,
Ray made it wonderful.
161
00:07:48,267 --> 00:07:51,170
JOHN MILES:
At the time
I met him, he was about 65.
162
00:07:52,071 --> 00:07:54,373
Just recently retired.
163
00:07:54,407 --> 00:07:56,676
He worked
for Rogers Sugar in Vancouver
164
00:07:56,709 --> 00:07:59,946
as chief maintenance man.
165
00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:02,915
He was empathetic.
He was concerned about
166
00:08:02,949 --> 00:08:07,587
what you felt about something,
which is rare today.
167
00:08:07,620 --> 00:08:10,623
And I liked that,
I enjoyed his company.
168
00:08:10,656 --> 00:08:13,559
He is the type of guy
who is from the old school.
169
00:08:13,593 --> 00:08:15,261
He had this
adventurous spirit.
170
00:08:15,294 --> 00:08:19,398
He had a map of British
Columbia in a booklet form.
171
00:08:19,432 --> 00:08:22,835
Very seldom would I find
a blank page
172
00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:26,639
part of this province
that Ray hadn't visited.
173
00:08:32,745 --> 00:08:35,181
DAVID:
So he drove
up to Harrison Lake
174
00:08:35,214 --> 00:08:37,850
-from your home here.
-DANIELA:
Right.
175
00:08:37,884 --> 00:08:40,453
DAVID:
In a truck
with a camper?
DANIELA:
Right.
176
00:08:40,486 --> 00:08:42,889
And what else
did he have with him?
177
00:08:42,922 --> 00:08:46,492
DANIELA:
A fridge, a furnace,
air conditioner, a few rifles
178
00:08:46,525 --> 00:08:48,461
and maybe
a couple of pistols with him.
179
00:08:48,494 --> 00:08:51,998
And he took his Zodiac with
him and a motor on the
Zodiac.
180
00:08:52,031 --> 00:08:55,468
He had a complete life jacket.
Good flotation device.
181
00:08:55,501 --> 00:08:56,736
So fully equipped.
182
00:08:56,769 --> 00:08:58,271
He had the two dogs,
183
00:08:58,304 --> 00:09:00,740
and if anything comes around,
they would bark.
184
00:09:00,773 --> 00:09:02,775
DAVID:
He'd been to the spot
many times before?
185
00:09:02,808 --> 00:09:05,211
DANIELA:
Many times
because you can get there,
186
00:09:05,244 --> 00:09:07,780
when he was still working,
he could go a Friday after
work
187
00:09:07,813 --> 00:09:10,082
and get there and set up camp
188
00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:12,084
and I've been with him
a couple of times.
189
00:09:12,118 --> 00:09:14,387
We've gone
for a week at a time.
190
00:09:14,420 --> 00:09:16,722
DAVID:
And again
for clarity, he doesn't go
191
00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:19,225
-and just sit
at his camper all day?
-No.
192
00:09:19,258 --> 00:09:22,628
DAVID:
He's out
going over the hillsides,
walking around.
193
00:09:22,662 --> 00:09:26,732
So he's been all through
the mountain sides in this
area
194
00:09:26,766 --> 00:09:28,935
-many times in the past.
-Correct.
195
00:09:28,968 --> 00:09:31,003
JOHN:
He says, "Oh, yeah,
I'm gonna camp down
196
00:09:31,037 --> 00:09:33,506
"by the lake
in this certain spot."
197
00:09:33,539 --> 00:09:35,207
So he says,
"I gotta get going now
198
00:09:35,241 --> 00:09:37,643
"because I've got to
set up camp before dark."
199
00:09:37,677 --> 00:09:39,078
That's the last time
I've seen him.
200
00:09:40,613 --> 00:09:43,416
We were planning
to go out of the lake
201
00:09:43,449 --> 00:09:46,218
and look for old gold mines.
202
00:09:46,252 --> 00:09:50,856
He says, "I'll come down
in the Zodiac and pick you up
on Monday morning."
203
00:09:50,890 --> 00:09:54,994
On Sunday afternoon,
I was doing some repair work
204
00:09:55,027 --> 00:09:58,364
on a trailer up here
and we heard three gunshots.
205
00:09:58,397 --> 00:10:02,001
[GUNSHOTS]
206
00:10:03,469 --> 00:10:07,039
Home alone downstairs,
watching TV
and the doorbell rings.
207
00:10:07,073 --> 00:10:09,675
And it was
a Vancouver City police
officer,
208
00:10:09,709 --> 00:10:12,545
and she was asking
if Ray Salmen is home.
209
00:10:12,578 --> 00:10:14,947
So I went, "What is it?
What's wrong?
Why are you asking me this?"
210
00:10:14,981 --> 00:10:18,751
And she said she didn't
have any information,
211
00:10:18,784 --> 00:10:20,186
and I couldn't contact Ray
212
00:10:20,219 --> 00:10:21,587
even though
he had a cell phone.
213
00:10:21,620 --> 00:10:25,024
There isn't any, uh,
cell phone coverage
at Harrison Lake.
214
00:10:25,057 --> 00:10:27,760
I think I phoned the RCMP
at about five in the morning
215
00:10:27,793 --> 00:10:29,295
and they were very brief.
216
00:10:29,328 --> 00:10:31,564
They never gave me
any details at the time.
217
00:10:31,597 --> 00:10:33,733
They just said he is missing.
218
00:10:33,766 --> 00:10:35,134
So I didn't know if he was
219
00:10:35,167 --> 00:10:38,604
walking with the dogs
somewhere and didn't make it
back.
220
00:10:38,637 --> 00:10:41,107
And as he said to me,
221
00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:43,609
"If you're injured,
if you're in the woods
and you're injured,
222
00:10:43,642 --> 00:10:45,478
"you wait for them
to come to you.
223
00:10:45,511 --> 00:10:48,781
"Don't start trying
to crawl around
wasting energy if you can't.
224
00:10:48,814 --> 00:10:50,216
"They will come
and they will look for you."
225
00:10:50,249 --> 00:10:52,685
And I thought, "Okay,
I know what's happened now."
226
00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:56,722
ADAM PALMER:
A call came in
about going out to search
227
00:10:56,756 --> 00:11:00,659
for a possible missing person
at this spot.
228
00:11:00,693 --> 00:11:04,163
The team knew, I was
actually, I had a lot of
experience in this area.
229
00:11:04,196 --> 00:11:05,998
So I was one
of the first team members
230
00:11:06,032 --> 00:11:07,566
to arrive
at that scene that day.
231
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,636
When we showed up,
his truck and camper
were right at this very spot.
232
00:11:10,669 --> 00:11:13,839
All his belongings
were kind of laid out
under the tarp.
233
00:11:13,873 --> 00:11:15,641
His truck and camper
looked in great shape.
234
00:11:15,674 --> 00:11:20,012
The RCMP goes up,
they find the truck
and the camper locked.
235
00:11:20,046 --> 00:11:24,216
Dogs inside, two dogs,
and nobody is around.
236
00:11:25,418 --> 00:11:27,520
If Ray went out for a hike,
237
00:11:27,553 --> 00:11:29,555
-would he take the dogs?
-Definitely.
238
00:11:29,588 --> 00:11:32,124
-So he wouldn't leave them in?
-Never leave the dogs in.
239
00:11:32,158 --> 00:11:34,293
This is what he's got
the dogs for.
240
00:11:34,326 --> 00:11:37,830
So in your mind, why would
he lock the camper door?
241
00:11:39,598 --> 00:11:41,100
Unless there
was a danger to the dogs.
242
00:11:41,133 --> 00:11:44,370
But what kind of danger
would be there to the dogs.
243
00:11:44,403 --> 00:11:46,505
ADAM:
It was
the strangest thing.
244
00:11:46,539 --> 00:11:49,809
I've never
showed up to a search
where we had full E.R.T
members
245
00:11:49,842 --> 00:11:52,311
and there was guys
with fully automatic weapons
246
00:11:52,344 --> 00:11:54,213
and I remember it
very specifically
247
00:11:54,246 --> 00:11:55,681
because I've never
showed up to a search
248
00:11:55,714 --> 00:11:57,149
where we're
searching alongside
249
00:11:57,183 --> 00:11:59,285
the Emergency
Response Team members.
250
00:12:00,586 --> 00:12:03,055
I was with the RCMP
for 31 years,
251
00:12:03,089 --> 00:12:06,425
and back here
where I'm from,
in the Fraser Valley,
252
00:12:06,459 --> 00:12:08,894
I was here for 22 years.
253
00:12:08,928 --> 00:12:10,362
DAVID: Are you familiar
with the Ray Salmen
254
00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:12,832
-disappearance on Harrison
Lake? -Yes.
255
00:12:12,865 --> 00:12:17,536
DAVID:
So on
a disappearance of a,
a missing person case,
256
00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:20,873
can you fathom in your own
mind why they would send out
257
00:12:20,906 --> 00:12:23,409
an RCMP SWAT team?
258
00:12:23,442 --> 00:12:25,077
For the unanswered questions.
259
00:12:25,111 --> 00:12:27,913
Are we looking at someone
who got murdered?
260
00:12:27,947 --> 00:12:30,416
Are we looking at somebody
who got kidnapped?
261
00:12:30,449 --> 00:12:34,253
Or they may have a tip
that nobody knows about.
262
00:12:34,286 --> 00:12:36,922
I don't know about,
top-secret kind of stuff.
263
00:12:36,956 --> 00:12:38,791
I remember
an officer telling me,
264
00:12:38,824 --> 00:12:41,727
kids showed up
at the Agassiz RCMP
detachment,
265
00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,864
saying that
their vehicle was shot at.
266
00:12:44,897 --> 00:12:47,299
And I remember later
talking to the RCMP officer
267
00:12:47,333 --> 00:12:49,969
saying that kids
reported their headlights
being shot out.
268
00:12:50,002 --> 00:12:53,038
If he shot out
somebody's headlights,
269
00:12:54,306 --> 00:12:57,176
and he was that good of a shot
to shoot out the headlights,
270
00:12:57,209 --> 00:12:59,545
then he was probably trying
271
00:12:59,578 --> 00:13:02,815
to get attention
to where he was?
272
00:13:02,848 --> 00:13:04,216
I don't know if I would shoot
273
00:13:04,250 --> 00:13:05,684
at someone's car
to get attention,
274
00:13:05,718 --> 00:13:07,319
because what's going
in my mind is,
275
00:13:07,353 --> 00:13:09,955
"Oh, my God, what if
I accidentally hit someone?"
276
00:13:09,989 --> 00:13:12,158
Now we know Ray
was a responsible hunter,
277
00:13:12,191 --> 00:13:14,293
had a license to
have his guns,
278
00:13:14,326 --> 00:13:17,229
had hunted for decades,
so, yeah, I am with you.
279
00:13:17,263 --> 00:13:19,832
I believe that,
that is very strange behavior.
280
00:13:19,865 --> 00:13:22,434
I remember thinking, "Well
that, that wouldn't have been
Ray."
281
00:13:22,468 --> 00:13:24,403
Ray wouldn't be shooting,
if he did anything,
282
00:13:24,436 --> 00:13:27,673
as he told me, "You shoot
three times in the air for
SOS."
283
00:13:27,706 --> 00:13:31,977
Now, there is more to the
story than just Ray missing.
284
00:13:32,011 --> 00:13:34,513
But not knowing what.
285
00:13:34,547 --> 00:13:37,116
Right directly behind him
was the grad party.
286
00:13:37,149 --> 00:13:39,685
So the party was
happening up over here.
287
00:13:39,718 --> 00:13:41,687
There was estimated to be
above 50,
288
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,589
50 people at that party,
and there was
289
00:13:43,622 --> 00:13:46,825
a massive amount of garbage
we cleaned up when we got
here.
290
00:13:46,859 --> 00:13:51,463
And they didn't consider
that possible evidence as
well?
291
00:13:51,497 --> 00:13:54,400
Something seemed wrong,
um, at that point.
292
00:13:54,433 --> 00:13:57,303
DAVID:
When you hear
the search and rescue persons
293
00:13:57,336 --> 00:13:59,572
rendition of
what just happened,
294
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,176
I don't think in 7,000 cases
295
00:14:04,210 --> 00:14:07,379
that I've ever heard
anything so strange
296
00:14:07,413 --> 00:14:11,617
as telling a search
and rescue group
to go pick up a grad party's
297
00:14:11,650 --> 00:14:13,352
remains of what they left
298
00:14:13,385 --> 00:14:15,421
and then,
coupled with the fact that
299
00:14:15,454 --> 00:14:18,424
there were shots
fired at the scene
300
00:14:18,457 --> 00:14:22,895
and they bring in
a special weapons team
to the area.
301
00:14:23,963 --> 00:14:26,465
But that wasn't it.
302
00:14:26,498 --> 00:14:29,568
The more you hear,
the stranger this story gets.
303
00:14:29,602 --> 00:14:32,738
ADAM:
We would hike
for a couple hours in here
and start grid searching,
304
00:14:32,771 --> 00:14:37,243
and we would
just basically come back
to this point then go again.
305
00:14:37,276 --> 00:14:40,279
Then we also got on ATVs,
and so we had boats.
306
00:14:40,312 --> 00:14:43,315
We had two watercraft
in the lake at that time,
307
00:14:43,349 --> 00:14:46,018
searching the shoreline,
air support as well.
308
00:14:46,051 --> 00:14:47,453
DAVID: And I remember
when I first talked to you,
309
00:14:47,486 --> 00:14:49,355
you said you were told
not to go into the bush?
310
00:14:49,388 --> 00:14:50,656
On the second day,
311
00:14:50,689 --> 00:14:52,758
his belongings
were found by air.
312
00:14:52,791 --> 00:14:54,693
They spotted his clothes.
313
00:14:54,727 --> 00:14:56,462
Now, this is a day,
314
00:14:56,495 --> 00:14:58,497
if not two days
after the initial search.
315
00:14:58,530 --> 00:15:01,333
It wasn't even probably
an hour or two after that,
316
00:15:01,367 --> 00:15:06,338
I remember the corporal,
the RCMP members,
still in uniform,
317
00:15:06,372 --> 00:15:10,109
coming out of the bush,
saying it's unsearchable.
318
00:15:10,142 --> 00:15:13,178
We found his, his clothes.
319
00:15:13,212 --> 00:15:15,347
Um, it's not
worth it to go in there.
320
00:15:15,381 --> 00:15:18,083
It's so clear
because I was like,
"Nothing is unsearchable."
321
00:15:18,117 --> 00:15:20,753
Why would they all of a sudden
just call it that quickly?
322
00:15:20,786 --> 00:15:24,657
DAVID:
I asked Adam
to show me the location
where Ray's clothes were
found.
323
00:15:25,591 --> 00:15:27,993
Strangely, there
was even a worn out
324
00:15:28,027 --> 00:15:30,562
search and rescue tag
on a tree.
325
00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:34,199
ADAM: This is where his
clothes were probably most
likely found.
326
00:15:34,233 --> 00:15:38,003
It's very old.
It's, yeah, that would be
from that time period.
327
00:15:38,037 --> 00:15:42,374
DAVID:
The search
uncovered via helicopter
328
00:15:42,408 --> 00:15:45,344
some folded items
under a log,
329
00:15:45,377 --> 00:15:49,248
and his rifle 400 yards
north of his truck,
330
00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,383
right on the beach.
331
00:15:51,417 --> 00:15:56,155
And then over a small hill
quite a distance away,
332
00:15:56,188 --> 00:15:58,424
they found his pistol
laying in a meadow.
333
00:15:58,457 --> 00:16:00,959
DANIELA:
They would,
they would give me
bits and pieces.
334
00:16:00,993 --> 00:16:02,328
They would call,
they would say,
335
00:16:02,361 --> 00:16:04,430
"Oh, we found Ray's
backpack under a tree."
336
00:16:04,463 --> 00:16:06,398
And then later
on they told me,
337
00:16:06,432 --> 00:16:09,335
somewhere in a field
they found his nine
-millimeter.
338
00:16:09,368 --> 00:16:14,173
And I thought Ray would never
leave a pistol anywhere.
339
00:16:14,206 --> 00:16:18,210
So you're into it a few days,
they found these items,
340
00:16:18,243 --> 00:16:22,614
uh, I read that it was
the feeling of the RCMP
that he must be in the water.
341
00:16:22,648 --> 00:16:24,416
Is that true?
342
00:16:24,450 --> 00:16:28,487
As they were saying,
"Oh, we think
he must have drowned,"
343
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,989
and I thought, "Well,
that doesn't make any sense."
344
00:16:31,023 --> 00:16:33,392
His boat is at the campsite,
345
00:16:33,425 --> 00:16:34,993
so he wouldn't
have fallen off the boat.
346
00:16:35,027 --> 00:16:36,295
And if he was on the boat,
347
00:16:36,328 --> 00:16:38,797
he would have had
his life jacket on.
348
00:16:38,831 --> 00:16:40,065
The official report says,
349
00:16:40,099 --> 00:16:42,368
he was injured
and got into the water
350
00:16:42,401 --> 00:16:44,703
and was trying to swim back,
and that's how he drowned.
351
00:16:44,737 --> 00:16:46,739
But it was hard to believe.
352
00:16:46,772 --> 00:16:49,208
DAVID: If anybody said, "Well,
he was stripping his clothes
353
00:16:49,241 --> 00:16:50,542
because he had hypothermia"?
354
00:16:50,576 --> 00:16:52,911
It wasn't raining
and it was June.
355
00:16:52,945 --> 00:16:54,146
It was, it was warm
356
00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:57,916
and I was even up
at 6,000-feet elevation,
357
00:16:57,950 --> 00:16:59,885
and I was
in a T-shirt, sweating.
358
00:16:59,918 --> 00:17:00,886
DANIELA:
They never found
359
00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:04,323
any traces of any blood,
animal or human.
360
00:17:04,356 --> 00:17:05,624
They even said
it was unusual
361
00:17:05,657 --> 00:17:08,293
that they had
that many tracking dogs
362
00:17:08,327 --> 00:17:10,162
and never found a track.
363
00:17:10,195 --> 00:17:12,231
DAVID:
Or a scent?
DANIELA:
Or a scent.
364
00:17:13,132 --> 00:17:14,700
DAVID:
That's
an important point.
365
00:17:14,733 --> 00:17:17,302
When you go
from the point of the pistol,
366
00:17:18,237 --> 00:17:22,207
from the camper to the beach,
367
00:17:22,241 --> 00:17:28,380
you have an established area
to start from, to go to.
368
00:17:28,414 --> 00:17:30,482
It's not like you're going
blindly at this point.
369
00:17:30,516 --> 00:17:32,351
So the dogs
should have been able
370
00:17:32,384 --> 00:17:35,821
to track Ray
point-to-point-to-point
pretty easily,
371
00:17:35,854 --> 00:17:37,423
and they didn't.
372
00:17:37,456 --> 00:17:41,326
The RCMP had a search boat,
combing the shoreline.
373
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,997
Ray's wife also hired
a private response team
374
00:17:45,030 --> 00:17:47,266
to come in
and also search the area.
375
00:17:47,299 --> 00:17:49,101
No body was ever recovered.
376
00:17:49,134 --> 00:17:51,737
So Daniela went out
with the search boat
377
00:17:51,770 --> 00:17:55,407
and actually spent
hours on scene
looking for her husband.
378
00:17:55,441 --> 00:17:56,942
I had arranged
with the Ralston's
379
00:17:56,975 --> 00:17:59,545
to come down
and search for Ray.
380
00:17:59,578 --> 00:18:01,246
DAVID:
Daniela told us
from the beginning
381
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,616
that she thought
that the RCMP was pushing
382
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:08,020
this probability
that Ray was in the water.
383
00:18:08,053 --> 00:18:09,855
And talking to
search and rescue people
384
00:18:09,888 --> 00:18:13,325
they didn't necessarily
believe Ray was in the water.
385
00:18:13,358 --> 00:18:14,927
And I'm not sure
if you guys were aware,
386
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,363
but they found his pistol
on top of a mountain,
387
00:18:18,397 --> 00:18:20,666
not even anywhere
near the water.
388
00:18:20,699 --> 00:18:23,402
-And Daniela said
there is no way...
-
{end-italic} GENE RALSTON:
Yeah.
389
00:18:23,435 --> 00:18:25,237
-...Ray would
lose such a pistol.
-Yeah.
390
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:27,573
-Had you heard that?
-We hadn't heard that, no.
391
00:18:27,606 --> 00:18:29,641
So it's interesting.
Initially, I don't think
392
00:18:29,675 --> 00:18:34,480
they wanted to give me back
his, um, guns and rifles.
393
00:18:34,513 --> 00:18:35,914
DAVID:
What about
the backpack?
394
00:18:35,948 --> 00:18:37,316
No, I didn't get that back.
395
00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:39,618
DAVID:
Don't you
think that's odd?
396
00:18:42,354 --> 00:18:45,290
They weren't there
to explain themselves to me.
397
00:18:45,324 --> 00:18:48,794
DAVID: Ever be a reason
to lie to the victim family?
398
00:18:48,827 --> 00:18:52,397
No, not from police, no.
399
00:18:53,932 --> 00:18:55,868
-Ever?
-No, never.
400
00:18:57,302 --> 00:18:59,037
DAVID:
It became
blatantly obvious
401
00:18:59,071 --> 00:19:02,774
that the RCMP was withholding
information from Daniela.
402
00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:05,143
Files obtained through
the Freedom of Information Act
403
00:19:05,177 --> 00:19:07,246
turned up
blacked out paragraphs.
404
00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:09,014
I have encountered
similar issues
405
00:19:09,047 --> 00:19:10,482
through
the Freedom of Information Act
406
00:19:10,516 --> 00:19:12,117
and the release of details.
407
00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:15,587
Some of the off-the-record
interviews that we were doing,
408
00:19:15,621 --> 00:19:18,357
alluded to a connection
to some of the local legends
409
00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:20,759
and bizarre sightings
within this area.
410
00:19:20,792 --> 00:19:23,896
People that go missing
or these things that happen
that don't quite make sense.
411
00:19:23,929 --> 00:19:25,497
It happens in an area where
412
00:19:25,531 --> 00:19:27,633
a lot of time,
there's gold
or there's a history.
413
00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:29,268
There's a legacy.
There's legends.
414
00:19:29,301 --> 00:19:31,336
There are stories
of past occurrences.
415
00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:33,472
There's a reason why
they're called sky ancestors.
416
00:19:33,505 --> 00:19:38,777
DAVID: We heard that the RCMP
has a policy about UFOs?
417
00:19:38,810 --> 00:19:39,878
Yes.
418
00:19:39,912 --> 00:19:41,547
Tell us about that.
419
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:44,583
If you get involved
with the UFO investigation,
420
00:19:44,616 --> 00:19:47,219
it is, you hand
that information over.
421
00:19:47,252 --> 00:19:48,987
I don't know where it goes.
422
00:19:49,021 --> 00:19:50,656
-So somebody somewhere...
-Yeah.
423
00:19:50,689 --> 00:19:53,358
...is collecting
and tracking this information?
424
00:19:53,392 --> 00:19:55,994
I would say so. Yes.
You have to.
425
00:19:56,995 --> 00:19:58,530
You cannot let that stuff go.
426
00:19:58,564 --> 00:20:01,533
-And they take it seriously?
-Yep. Yeah.
427
00:20:01,567 --> 00:20:03,235
That information is collected,
428
00:20:03,268 --> 00:20:07,272
and wherever it goes
into some secret something.
429
00:20:08,941 --> 00:20:13,078
So during the interview
with the RCMP officer
that was retired,
430
00:20:13,111 --> 00:20:14,880
yeah, it reminded me
431
00:20:14,913 --> 00:20:17,816
of a document that I saw
several years ago.
432
00:20:17,849 --> 00:20:19,851
In March of 1960,
433
00:20:19,885 --> 00:20:22,487
the RCMP had a document
434
00:20:22,521 --> 00:20:24,856
that would have been
classified as restricted,
435
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:28,026
that had to do with
the Athabaskan Indians,
436
00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:33,332
seeing a UFO in the general
area of where Ray Salmen
disappeared.
437
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,137
And that document in essence,
says that they saw something
438
00:20:39,171 --> 00:20:41,673
that we would consider today
439
00:20:41,707 --> 00:20:44,443
to be your
standard cylindrical UFO.
440
00:20:47,346 --> 00:20:50,816
DANIELA:
We were
camping once at a place
called Fire Lake,
441
00:20:50,849 --> 00:20:53,218
and we were just sitting
around the campfire in the
evening
442
00:20:53,251 --> 00:20:57,055
and there is a large lake,
and on the other side
there's a mountain.
443
00:20:57,089 --> 00:21:00,025
And there wasn't any logging
going on at that mountain
444
00:21:00,058 --> 00:21:03,662
and we were sitting there
and we could see
a light across the lake.
445
00:21:03,695 --> 00:21:07,933
I said, "Oh, there must be
logging going on there.
It looks like there's a car."
446
00:21:07,966 --> 00:21:09,735
And Ray said,
"That's not a car,"
and he goes,
447
00:21:09,768 --> 00:21:12,404
"I know for a fact there isn't
any logging going there."
448
00:21:12,437 --> 00:21:14,306
He knows all the roads,
all the back hills.
449
00:21:14,339 --> 00:21:15,841
He's hiked everywhere.
450
00:21:15,874 --> 00:21:18,210
But as we're looking
at this light,
451
00:21:18,243 --> 00:21:19,811
it's traveling very quickly
452
00:21:19,845 --> 00:21:22,314
and doing 90 degree turns,
very unusual.
453
00:21:22,347 --> 00:21:25,550
So a car in the mountains
wouldn't have been
traveling that way.
454
00:21:25,584 --> 00:21:27,085
And it wasn't just a flash.
455
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,054
We were sitting there
watching this.
456
00:21:29,087 --> 00:21:32,991
And I remember sitting there
for a good ten minutes
457
00:21:33,025 --> 00:21:35,527
watching this
and almost enjoying this.
458
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,162
I thought,
"This is fascinating."
459
00:21:37,195 --> 00:21:39,698
You ever seen anything strange
in the skies out here?
460
00:21:41,333 --> 00:21:43,135
Well, I've been
here a long time.
461
00:21:43,168 --> 00:21:46,204
When I had
the cottage over there,
I had some friends
462
00:21:46,238 --> 00:21:49,241
and he came up
with his girlfriend.
463
00:21:49,274 --> 00:21:51,376
And they camped on the beach.
464
00:21:51,410 --> 00:21:54,346
I guess it was about
2:30 in the morning.
465
00:21:54,379 --> 00:21:55,981
They were in the tent,
on the beach
466
00:21:56,014 --> 00:21:59,251
in the middle of the night,
asleep. My friend said,
467
00:21:59,284 --> 00:22:02,054
"I was sleeping like that,
and all of a sudden
I knew there was a light.
468
00:22:02,087 --> 00:22:03,722
"It woke me up.
469
00:22:03,755 --> 00:22:07,759
"And the inside of the tent
it was like daylight."
470
00:22:07,793 --> 00:22:10,996
He unzipped the door
and looks outside,
471
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:15,100
and it was like
the 12 o'clock high noon,
472
00:22:15,133 --> 00:22:16,835
on the clearest
day of the year,
473
00:22:16,868 --> 00:22:18,804
and he could see
the beach and the water
474
00:22:18,837 --> 00:22:20,806
and all that for
but he couldn't see past
475
00:22:20,839 --> 00:22:23,775
a certain area
so it was lit up.
476
00:22:24,843 --> 00:22:28,180
And that clicked,
you know?
477
00:22:28,213 --> 00:22:30,649
Hey, I believe
what they told me
478
00:22:30,682 --> 00:22:32,851
because somebody else
told me the same thing.
479
00:22:33,985 --> 00:22:37,022
As an investigator
who has a very open mind,
480
00:22:38,123 --> 00:22:39,891
and absorbs all the details,
481
00:22:39,925 --> 00:22:43,729
no matter
how outlandish and strange,
482
00:22:43,762 --> 00:22:46,531
I really have to put
some parameters up sometimes
483
00:22:46,565 --> 00:22:49,634
about how far down
the rabbit hole I'll go.
484
00:22:51,103 --> 00:22:55,173
Considering this
I'd a good friend
in the state of Washington
485
00:22:55,207 --> 00:22:58,176
that is really a UFO expert.
486
00:22:58,210 --> 00:22:59,711
And I wanna take it to him.
487
00:22:59,745 --> 00:23:01,279
My name is Peter Davenport.
488
00:23:01,313 --> 00:23:03,014
I'm, for the last 26 years
489
00:23:03,048 --> 00:23:06,785
I've been the director of the
National UFO Reporting Center
490
00:23:06,818 --> 00:23:09,855
and that's what I do.
I'm a UFO investigator.
491
00:23:09,888 --> 00:23:12,324
What is the difference
between MUFON
492
00:23:12,357 --> 00:23:13,892
and what you do
in your organization?
493
00:23:13,925 --> 00:23:15,694
Well, they're two
separate organizations.
494
00:23:15,727 --> 00:23:17,996
MUFON is an older
organization.
495
00:23:18,029 --> 00:23:21,266
And MUFON is more
of an investigative body.
496
00:23:21,299 --> 00:23:23,902
It's a membership
organization.
497
00:23:23,935 --> 00:23:26,271
The National UFO
Reporting Center
498
00:23:26,304 --> 00:23:28,640
has one member, and that is I.
499
00:23:28,673 --> 00:23:31,076
Do you ever investigate
any of the reports you get?
500
00:23:31,109 --> 00:23:32,544
Yeah, once in a while.
501
00:23:32,577 --> 00:23:34,713
I have investigated
an elk abduction.
502
00:23:34,746 --> 00:23:38,517
I have investigated
crop formations.
503
00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:41,086
Takes a lot of,
a lot of resources
504
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,687
to investigate a case.
505
00:23:42,721 --> 00:23:44,556
DAVID:
You brought up
the elk case
506
00:23:44,589 --> 00:23:46,591
that you investigated
in Washington?
507
00:23:46,625 --> 00:23:49,227
I was actually at a conference
when the call came in.
508
00:23:49,261 --> 00:23:55,567
He told the story about
14 or 15 people I think it
was,
509
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,203
who were out
planting trees
on a hillside,
510
00:23:58,236 --> 00:24:00,605
on big piece of property owned
511
00:24:00,639 --> 00:24:03,175
by a commercial
logging company.
512
00:24:03,208 --> 00:24:07,345
They had seen an object
approach from the East,
513
00:24:07,379 --> 00:24:10,282
and they stood there and
watched it for a few seconds.
514
00:24:10,315 --> 00:24:13,952
He called the, the object
to the attention of the
workers,
515
00:24:13,985 --> 00:24:16,488
and they all looked up
and saw it as well.
516
00:24:17,489 --> 00:24:20,826
And it flew towards
a herd of elk,
517
00:24:20,859 --> 00:24:23,628
that these guys have been
watching all morning long
518
00:24:23,662 --> 00:24:25,730
as they worked on a hillside.
519
00:24:25,764 --> 00:24:29,568
All the elk bolted
to the northeast to heavy
cover,
520
00:24:29,601 --> 00:24:31,736
except for one hapless elk.
521
00:24:32,237 --> 00:24:34,506
And the object
522
00:24:34,539 --> 00:24:36,775
lifted the elk off the ground,
523
00:24:36,808 --> 00:24:40,512
and it started moving slowly
in the direction
524
00:24:40,545 --> 00:24:42,848
in which
that herd of elk had gone
525
00:24:42,881 --> 00:24:46,685
and it came to a large tree,
an evergreen tree
526
00:24:46,718 --> 00:24:49,754
and bumped into it,
interestingly.
527
00:24:49,788 --> 00:24:52,691
And backed away from the tree.
528
00:24:52,724 --> 00:24:55,126
And then suddenly
shot to the north
529
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,797
and went over
the nearest ridge
to the north.
530
00:24:59,631 --> 00:25:01,333
I called the individual back
531
00:25:01,366 --> 00:25:02,834
who had made
the call to the hotline
532
00:25:02,868 --> 00:25:05,036
and who had left a message.
533
00:25:05,070 --> 00:25:08,006
And arranged
to travel to the site.
534
00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:11,810
DAVID: Was the company
that the property was on
535
00:25:11,843 --> 00:25:13,979
assisting in this research?
536
00:25:14,012 --> 00:25:18,316
They directed question
to Peter Davenport.
537
00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:19,718
Let's put it that way.
538
00:25:19,751 --> 00:25:21,152
So were they interested?
539
00:25:21,186 --> 00:25:22,654
Definitely.
540
00:25:22,687 --> 00:25:25,190
What's general nationality
of the workers?
541
00:25:25,223 --> 00:25:26,391
Hispanic.
542
00:25:26,424 --> 00:25:27,792
Would they speak English?
543
00:25:27,826 --> 00:25:32,430
No. Nobody really knew
exactly what went on,
544
00:25:32,464 --> 00:25:36,234
until we got
some good translation.
545
00:25:36,268 --> 00:25:38,904
That's when I decided
we needed to get somebody
546
00:25:38,937 --> 00:25:41,940
that was one,
in the UFO community
547
00:25:41,973 --> 00:25:43,808
and two,
who could translate well,
548
00:25:43,842 --> 00:25:47,779
and that's when I contacted
Ruben down in California,
549
00:25:47,812 --> 00:25:51,549
I had contacted
uh, some of the workers
550
00:25:51,583 --> 00:25:54,619
and to arrange for us to meet
551
00:25:55,553 --> 00:25:58,023
and gain their trust too
552
00:25:58,056 --> 00:26:00,792
because these gentlemen
were pretty shook up.
553
00:26:00,825 --> 00:26:04,796
I would say they were
in their late 20s, early 30s.
554
00:26:05,764 --> 00:26:07,599
They were married,
they have families.
555
00:26:07,632 --> 00:26:11,703
Yeah. They
were responsible folks.
556
00:26:11,736 --> 00:26:14,406
The three witnesses
saw this object
557
00:26:14,439 --> 00:26:18,410
slowly descending
and it went toward
the elk herd,
558
00:26:18,443 --> 00:26:20,478
which caused the elk to run,
559
00:26:20,512 --> 00:26:23,481
but he was able
to see the object
560
00:26:23,515 --> 00:26:24,783
picking up the elk.
561
00:26:24,816 --> 00:26:26,851
It was not a big
object at all.
562
00:26:26,885 --> 00:26:28,987
The witnesses emphasized
563
00:26:29,020 --> 00:26:32,691
how surprised they were
at how small it was
564
00:26:32,724 --> 00:26:35,560
and still be able to lift
an elk out of the forest.
565
00:26:35,593 --> 00:26:38,496
What they did
was they looked at the elk,
566
00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:40,131
they looked at the craft
and they said,
567
00:26:40,165 --> 00:26:42,467
"Well, okay,
if the elk is this big,
568
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:48,306
"the craft is gonna
be somewhere between
six and eight feet long.
569
00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:52,544
"About five feet wide
with a little indentation
in the back.
570
00:26:52,577 --> 00:26:54,212
"About 18 inches thick.
571
00:26:54,245 --> 00:26:58,783
"It had a red
and a white stripe
that weren't lights,
572
00:26:58,817 --> 00:27:03,088
"but the white stripe
was like a bright enamel
paint,
573
00:27:03,121 --> 00:27:05,957
"the red stripe
was a duller color."
574
00:27:05,991 --> 00:27:07,826
So when the men in the group
575
00:27:07,859 --> 00:27:12,263
-saw this craft take
the elk out of sight...
-Yeah.
576
00:27:12,297 --> 00:27:13,999
...what was the distance
from where they were
577
00:27:14,032 --> 00:27:16,234
to where
they finally saw it?
578
00:27:16,267 --> 00:27:20,872
I would say the trees
where it ran into
is quarter mile.
579
00:27:20,905 --> 00:27:23,708
But basically I think
it became a small dot
580
00:27:23,742 --> 00:27:26,745
before it disappeared
into the cloud cover.
581
00:27:27,579 --> 00:27:30,715
Down trip was silent,
582
00:27:30,749 --> 00:27:33,518
and as soon as
it got over the elk,
583
00:27:33,551 --> 00:27:35,787
the elk was
basically paralyzed.
584
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:37,555
It looked like
it was a statue.
585
00:27:37,589 --> 00:27:38,957
It was just stiff.
586
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:41,059
DAVID: The distance
of the elk from the craft
587
00:27:41,092 --> 00:27:43,361
-always stayed consistent?
-Yes.
588
00:27:43,395 --> 00:27:47,399
How thick was the cable
between the craft and the elk?
589
00:27:47,432 --> 00:27:48,733
There was no cable.
590
00:27:49,401 --> 00:27:52,771
There was nothing discernible
591
00:27:52,804 --> 00:27:55,206
that was holding
the elk to the craft.
592
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,076
The movement was like,
like a coin.
593
00:27:58,109 --> 00:28:00,445
Uh, it was a slow oscillation.
594
00:28:00,478 --> 00:28:06,584
It took about
two-and-half seconds
for it to complete a cycle,
595
00:28:06,618 --> 00:28:11,890
and it's as if,
if you've ever spun a coin
596
00:28:11,923 --> 00:28:14,759
and when that coin
is getting lower and lower,
597
00:28:14,793 --> 00:28:18,696
so it's almost flat
and it goes around on its rim,
598
00:28:18,730 --> 00:28:20,498
that's the type
of oscillation.
599
00:28:20,532 --> 00:28:23,301
What are
the chances, Peter,
that, that could have been
600
00:28:23,334 --> 00:28:25,470
some kind of test vehicle
that our military has,
601
00:28:25,503 --> 00:28:27,806
and they were just trying
out their technology?
602
00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:30,809
About as close to zero
as you can get.
603
00:28:30,842 --> 00:28:33,912
-Could the craft
have been a helicopter?
-No.
604
00:28:33,945 --> 00:28:37,615
In your research
as an investigator
is that common?
605
00:28:37,649 --> 00:28:38,883
Yes, there are many times
606
00:28:38,917 --> 00:28:41,286
so in reports that we get
607
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:43,021
uh, from witnesses.
608
00:28:43,054 --> 00:28:47,125
They'll say that
they heard no noise at all.
609
00:28:47,158 --> 00:28:50,862
-Did you ever go out
and try to find the elk?
-We did.
610
00:28:50,895 --> 00:28:54,532
We found what we think
may have been the elk.
611
00:28:54,566 --> 00:28:58,236
Uh, it was a dead creature
by the time we got to it,
612
00:28:58,269 --> 00:29:01,673
but we did a
cursory examination
613
00:29:01,706 --> 00:29:03,808
could find no bullet holes,
614
00:29:03,842 --> 00:29:05,543
no arrows sticking in it,
615
00:29:05,577 --> 00:29:07,579
no wounds.
It had good teeth.
616
00:29:07,612 --> 00:29:08,980
It was well fed.
617
00:29:09,013 --> 00:29:12,951
We think it was a female,
pregnant female elk.
618
00:29:12,984 --> 00:29:15,553
Describe the setting
that you saw the elk in?
619
00:29:16,454 --> 00:29:17,989
It was beside a road,
620
00:29:18,022 --> 00:29:21,426
and it was in the valley,
to the north of the valley,
621
00:29:21,459 --> 00:29:23,862
where these men
were planting trees.
622
00:29:23,895 --> 00:29:25,797
It leads me to suspect,
623
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:27,465
but I have no evidence
624
00:29:27,499 --> 00:29:33,638
that the craft flew over
the ridge to the north
625
00:29:33,671 --> 00:29:35,240
of where these
men were working,
626
00:29:35,940 --> 00:29:37,775
and may have dropped the elk
627
00:29:37,809 --> 00:29:39,277
or lifted off.
628
00:29:39,310 --> 00:29:41,279
DAVID:
So how many days
was it from the time
629
00:29:41,312 --> 00:29:44,449
that they saw the elk
get pulled up by the craft
630
00:29:44,482 --> 00:29:47,418
until someone found
that elk on the road?
631
00:29:47,452 --> 00:29:52,790
The elk was found before
seven days had transpired.
632
00:29:52,824 --> 00:29:54,425
Does that case
rank up there with you
633
00:29:54,459 --> 00:29:57,395
as far as strangeness
and credibility?
634
00:29:58,930 --> 00:30:00,865
Yeah, it's
a pretty strange case.
635
00:30:00,899 --> 00:30:04,269
Uh, it's not every day
that witnesses see a UFO
636
00:30:04,302 --> 00:30:08,072
what we presume was a UFO,
an alien spacecraft
637
00:30:08,106 --> 00:30:11,910
lift an animal
off the ground
and fly off with it.
638
00:30:11,943 --> 00:30:14,245
That's pretty unusual
by any measure.
639
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:16,214
Were any of them
concerned that,
640
00:30:16,247 --> 00:30:18,483
"Hey, maybe one of these
things could come over and
take me"?
641
00:30:18,516 --> 00:30:20,552
Yeah.
642
00:30:20,585 --> 00:30:22,921
-Did they voice that concern?
-Yes, they did.
643
00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:25,990
They... Some weren't
quite sure if they wanted
644
00:30:26,024 --> 00:30:28,493
to go back to the woods
and work again.
645
00:30:28,526 --> 00:30:32,997
Listening to his voice,
and I could really see
646
00:30:34,165 --> 00:30:36,634
the actual event
that's happening to him
647
00:30:36,668 --> 00:30:38,736
as he's describing it.
648
00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:40,071
And he was shook up about it.
649
00:30:40,638 --> 00:30:42,106
Was he emotional?
650
00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:44,876
From what I recall,
he had a hard time sleeping
651
00:30:45,743 --> 00:30:48,813
for several days
after he saw that.
652
00:30:48,846 --> 00:30:51,082
His words were whether...
he thought,
653
00:30:51,115 --> 00:30:53,451
"Whether it was
something prehistoric
654
00:30:53,484 --> 00:30:55,420
"or was something
extraterrestrial."
655
00:30:55,453 --> 00:30:57,755
So when you heard
that this elk was taken
656
00:30:57,789 --> 00:31:01,459
and you
and you heard the witnesses,
657
00:31:01,492 --> 00:31:03,995
at the end of the
investigation what was your
belief,
658
00:31:04,028 --> 00:31:06,965
credible, incredible,
borderline?
659
00:31:06,998 --> 00:31:09,367
It was credible.
Everyone was credible.
660
00:31:12,437 --> 00:31:16,040
No one appeared
to be wanting to...
661
00:31:16,908 --> 00:31:21,179
mmm, force
a story about anything.
662
00:31:21,212 --> 00:31:23,081
It was just the opposite.
663
00:31:23,114 --> 00:31:26,918
They were reluctant,
really upset them.
664
00:31:26,951 --> 00:31:29,954
They really didn't even
wanna think about it.
665
00:31:29,988 --> 00:31:33,658
Did they give you
any indication at all
that this was fabrication?
666
00:31:33,691 --> 00:31:34,826
No, David.
667
00:31:34,859 --> 00:31:36,961
I would stake my reputation.
668
00:31:36,995 --> 00:31:38,930
No, they were
telling the truth.
669
00:31:40,031 --> 00:31:41,899
DAVID:
After the interview,
I received a call
670
00:31:41,933 --> 00:31:44,636
from Robert Fairfax
regarding the dead elk.
671
00:31:45,937 --> 00:31:48,706
-Hey, Robert.
-Hi, Dave.
672
00:31:48,740 --> 00:31:52,410
I'm calling back because
when we did the interview
of...
673
00:31:52,443 --> 00:31:55,179
there's a couple of things
I forgot to add.
674
00:31:55,213 --> 00:31:58,683
I did meet with
a representative
of the company.
675
00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:03,254
When Peter and I initially
went down to find the elk,
676
00:32:03,288 --> 00:32:05,390
it had a chronic
wasting disease,
677
00:32:05,423 --> 00:32:10,128
prion disease,
that affects the brain
678
00:32:10,161 --> 00:32:16,701
and they had been finding
quite a few elks,
dead elks in the area.
679
00:32:18,002 --> 00:32:21,939
So in the 1980s, in the UK,
680
00:32:21,973 --> 00:32:25,343
there was something
called, "mad cow disease".
681
00:32:25,376 --> 00:32:28,513
It's a prion disease,
and it infected cows.
682
00:32:28,546 --> 00:32:33,384
In the UK, they initially said
that these animals
683
00:32:33,418 --> 00:32:37,722
couldn't transmit
the disease to people.
684
00:32:37,755 --> 00:32:39,223
And they said not to worry.
685
00:32:39,257 --> 00:32:41,926
But it ended up
transferring to people
686
00:32:41,959 --> 00:32:43,861
and it killed hundreds.
687
00:32:43,895 --> 00:32:47,765
And the UK
ended up slaughtering
over four-million cattle
688
00:32:47,799 --> 00:32:51,336
because of this prion disease
that we know as mad cow.
689
00:32:51,369 --> 00:32:54,639
In the U.S. there's something
that's come about,
690
00:32:54,672 --> 00:32:57,308
where chronic wasting disease
691
00:32:57,342 --> 00:33:02,313
is now infecting deer,
moose, elk, cervids,
692
00:33:02,347 --> 00:33:06,284
and this disease
has spread across the U.S.
693
00:33:06,317 --> 00:33:10,621
and it centered
on Colorado and Wyoming.
694
00:33:10,655 --> 00:33:15,727
This disease is fatal
100% of the time to all
cervids.
695
00:33:19,263 --> 00:33:22,500
The state governments
of each of the 50 states
696
00:33:22,533 --> 00:33:27,705
have told hunters
to get their animals tested
697
00:33:27,739 --> 00:33:30,541
and not to eat the meat
of an infected animal.
698
00:33:30,575 --> 00:33:34,612
And they've never stated yet
that this can transfer to
human.
699
00:33:34,645 --> 00:33:38,983
But it's consistent in that
it says, "Don't eat the
animal."
700
00:33:39,016 --> 00:33:45,390
Chronic wasting disease,
seems to be something
that is out of control.
701
00:33:45,423 --> 00:33:49,293
State and federal governments
don't have an answer
on how to control it.
702
00:33:49,327 --> 00:33:51,262
And right now
it seems as though
703
00:33:51,295 --> 00:33:53,398
there's some
type of monitoring
704
00:33:53,431 --> 00:33:59,670
going on across the U.S.
of these infected animals.
705
00:34:00,538 --> 00:34:02,807
DAVID: In Washington,
Peter Davenport
706
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,412
identified one case
and attributed it to CWD.
707
00:34:07,445 --> 00:34:10,848
Now he identified a case
in the state of Idaho,
708
00:34:10,882 --> 00:34:14,485
involving hunters,
that is equally as unusual.
709
00:34:16,154 --> 00:34:17,588
Hi, I'm Chris Bales,
710
00:34:17,622 --> 00:34:22,260
and I have a little incident
that I ran into
711
00:34:22,293 --> 00:34:25,430
on September 27th,
the year 2000.
712
00:34:25,463 --> 00:34:29,033
Um, something that most people
713
00:34:29,066 --> 00:34:32,370
would never ever see
or believe.
714
00:34:33,404 --> 00:34:37,041
We were in the
middle of Idaho,
715
00:34:37,074 --> 00:34:39,944
out in a pretty remote area.
716
00:34:39,977 --> 00:34:41,245
DAVID:
Who were you with?
717
00:34:41,279 --> 00:34:44,282
Um, I was with
my brother Mark,
718
00:34:44,315 --> 00:34:46,517
and a friend of ours,
719
00:34:46,551 --> 00:34:52,423
through construction, Rob
and then his dad was with us.
720
00:34:52,457 --> 00:34:54,959
DAVID: Describe the spot
where you were camping?
721
00:34:54,992 --> 00:34:56,561
Hard to get down in,
and then when you
722
00:34:56,594 --> 00:34:58,496
get down in,
it was pretty tight.
723
00:34:58,529 --> 00:35:03,334
Um, steep canyon
and tall timber.
724
00:35:03,367 --> 00:35:06,504
And it was kind of a dark,
dark hole down in there.
725
00:35:06,537 --> 00:35:08,206
DAVID: And had you been
to the spot before?
726
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,541
We had. We've been
there for several years.
727
00:35:10,575 --> 00:35:13,144
-So you knew it well?
-We knew it well, yeah.
728
00:35:13,177 --> 00:35:15,046
CHRIS:
We had some mules
729
00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:21,319
to hopefully, usually pack
an animal out that we
harvested.
730
00:35:21,352 --> 00:35:23,754
Described the day
731
00:35:23,788 --> 00:35:26,457
and how it started
on this specific incident?
732
00:35:26,491 --> 00:35:29,227
We would start early, I mean,
like four in the morning.
733
00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:31,596
Drive to a spot
and then hike for
734
00:35:31,629 --> 00:35:33,931
maybe an hour
or two in the dark.
735
00:35:33,965 --> 00:35:36,467
CHRIS BALE:
Work
our way around, spotted elk,
736
00:35:36,501 --> 00:35:40,438
trying to follow the elk
and look at some high lakes
737
00:35:40,471 --> 00:35:42,807
that we'd never seen before
and never got up in there.
738
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,944
We'd try and get back
to the vehicles
just before dark.
739
00:35:46,978 --> 00:35:49,247
On this day,
you guys come back,
740
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,849
you fix some dinner,
explain what happened then?
741
00:35:51,883 --> 00:35:53,618
I had finished my supper
742
00:35:54,318 --> 00:35:56,821
and went out to take a whiz
743
00:35:56,854 --> 00:36:01,092
and was starting back
to the trailer,
744
00:36:01,125 --> 00:36:03,294
and Chris came out.
745
00:36:03,327 --> 00:36:07,798
I was, I don't know,
maybe 15-feet from the
trailer.
746
00:36:07,832 --> 00:36:11,969
And when I stepped down,
obviously your head goes up.
747
00:36:12,003 --> 00:36:17,275
The light went across,
hit on something
that's right there,
748
00:36:17,308 --> 00:36:20,545
and instant, instantly
749
00:36:20,578 --> 00:36:23,814
that it was something
that I didn't comprehend,
750
00:36:23,848 --> 00:36:25,016
whatsoever.
751
00:36:25,049 --> 00:36:27,318
When I saw that,
752
00:36:27,351 --> 00:36:30,054
that's when I, you know,
went down on my knees.
753
00:36:30,087 --> 00:36:34,325
I just kind of
turned to my right,
went down on my knees.
754
00:36:34,358 --> 00:36:39,063
Chris looks up
and just goes Holy--
755
00:36:39,096 --> 00:36:41,365
Shit. Holy shit! Holy shit!
756
00:36:41,399 --> 00:36:43,267
You guys have got to see this.
757
00:36:43,301 --> 00:36:46,571
I look up and I see
what he's looking at.
758
00:36:46,604 --> 00:36:50,241
CHRIS:
And I mean,
I was quivering. I yelled.
759
00:36:50,274 --> 00:36:53,077
I was yelling basically
at the top of my voice.
760
00:36:53,110 --> 00:36:57,915
Mark came out of the trailer,
and he said that, you know,
761
00:36:57,949 --> 00:37:02,153
he heard my voice and he'd
never heard me sound that way
before.
762
00:37:02,186 --> 00:37:06,757
He runs out
and I just point up, up above.
763
00:37:06,791 --> 00:37:11,629
It was huge.
It was like a football field.
764
00:37:11,662 --> 00:37:16,233
Hundred feet, direction,
direction, triangular shape.
765
00:37:16,267 --> 00:37:22,673
So how far was the bottom
of that craft from you
in your estimate?
766
00:37:22,707 --> 00:37:29,146
I would say
80-feet plus or minus
somewhere near above us.
767
00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:30,948
Rivets? Canals?
768
00:37:30,982 --> 00:37:33,417
No, that was,
that was one of the things
that,
769
00:37:33,451 --> 00:37:36,087
I am in construction,
I like detail.
770
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,590
Um, I was looking at that
and that the detail just...
771
00:37:39,624 --> 00:37:45,429
I couldn't believe, you know,
there's, there's no seams,
no rivets, no joints.
772
00:37:45,463 --> 00:37:49,667
It's all just
one perfect surface in that.
773
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:53,437
You could just tell
it was perfect in every way.
774
00:37:53,471 --> 00:37:57,908
The thing that got me the most
was how close it was...
775
00:37:59,410 --> 00:38:01,045
and no noise.
776
00:38:01,078 --> 00:38:02,213
Nothing.
777
00:38:02,246 --> 00:38:06,517
No prop voice.
No... breeze.
778
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:11,956
No exhaust,
nothing you could smell.
779
00:38:13,257 --> 00:38:15,259
Zero.
780
00:38:15,292 --> 00:38:17,595
And it was a calm night.
No wind.
781
00:38:17,628 --> 00:38:19,530
By that time,
it's starting to move up
782
00:38:19,563 --> 00:38:23,567
and Mark and Rob both
grabbed their binoculars
783
00:38:23,601 --> 00:38:26,504
and we just
watched it just float...
784
00:38:26,537 --> 00:38:31,475
up the draw, just slowly,
no noise.
785
00:38:31,509 --> 00:38:34,412
Um, animals didn't make noise.
786
00:38:34,445 --> 00:38:37,748
Those mules
never made a sound,
787
00:38:37,782 --> 00:38:40,785
and they never
made any motion.
788
00:38:40,818 --> 00:38:43,454
I mean, they, like,
nothing was going on.
789
00:38:43,487 --> 00:38:47,058
We weren't making any noise,
just kind of in awe
790
00:38:47,091 --> 00:38:49,960
of what's going on
and not knowing what it is.
791
00:38:49,994 --> 00:38:52,129
I'm thinking,
"Man, that's sure no
airplane."
792
00:38:53,497 --> 00:38:56,367
We actually
took pieces of paper
793
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,037
and drew up
our own pictures
794
00:39:00,071 --> 00:39:03,007
and wrote down information.
795
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,912
So, Chris, I came across this.
Did you draw that?
796
00:39:07,945 --> 00:39:09,080
I did draw this.
797
00:39:09,113 --> 00:39:10,481
Is that what it looked like?
798
00:39:10,514 --> 00:39:13,651
That's as similar
as what I could come up with.
799
00:39:13,684 --> 00:39:15,953
What were the black dots
outside the craft?
800
00:39:15,986 --> 00:39:18,322
Don't know.
I just remember seeing them.
801
00:39:18,355 --> 00:39:22,159
Um, didn't seem
like there was anything, um...
802
00:39:22,193 --> 00:39:29,366
And was the red dot painted
or did it glow like the white?
803
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,836
It glowed like the white disc.
804
00:39:31,869 --> 00:39:34,605
Did the white lights
also protrude from the bottom?
805
00:39:34,638 --> 00:39:37,842
Uh, it looked like maybe
they were semi-domed.
806
00:39:37,875 --> 00:39:43,447
But it was not really
pronounced like the drawing.
807
00:39:43,481 --> 00:39:49,386
You know, you draw that,
it was more of white fog,
808
00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:52,556
um, circle,
not really unique,
809
00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:55,793
sharp edges or fine detail.
810
00:39:56,961 --> 00:39:59,096
DAVID:
Could it
have been watching Rob?
811
00:39:59,130 --> 00:40:01,298
Could he have been
a target for abduction
812
00:40:01,332 --> 00:40:03,234
and Chris coming
out of the trailer,
813
00:40:03,267 --> 00:40:05,202
thwarted that abduction?
814
00:40:05,236 --> 00:40:08,472
Triangular craft like this
have been seen
around the world,
815
00:40:08,506 --> 00:40:12,676
including, most recently
by our own
U.S. Military pilots.
816
00:40:12,710 --> 00:40:14,979
That night,
did you stay in camp?
817
00:40:15,813 --> 00:40:16,947
Tried to,
818
00:40:16,981 --> 00:40:19,984
but just couldn't
bring myself to do it.
819
00:40:20,017 --> 00:40:22,920
Did you get to know anybody
else who lived in that general
area
820
00:40:22,953 --> 00:40:24,822
and asked them if they'd seen
something like this?
821
00:40:24,855 --> 00:40:28,225
There was people that we knew
that were in the area.
822
00:40:28,259 --> 00:40:31,095
So Mark kind of hedged on,
823
00:40:31,128 --> 00:40:36,500
"Have you guys ever seen
anything kind of different,
824
00:40:36,534 --> 00:40:40,371
"you know, at some point
or anything like that
out in the valley?"
825
00:40:40,404 --> 00:40:44,241
And so little conversation
about it.
826
00:40:44,275 --> 00:40:46,710
I just, we were standing,
you know, on the dirt road
827
00:40:46,744 --> 00:40:51,415
and I put the toe of my boot
down and said, "Well, did you
see something like this?"
828
00:40:51,448 --> 00:40:52,950
And started to draw
829
00:40:52,983 --> 00:40:56,287
a triangle
with my boot in the dirt
830
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,090
and I drew a straight line
and the guy standing next to
me
831
00:41:00,124 --> 00:41:02,660
took his foot
and pushed my foot away
832
00:41:02,693 --> 00:41:06,197
and he finished
my drawing for me on that.
833
00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:09,733
And that was,
there was nothing said
or anything
834
00:41:09,767 --> 00:41:12,269
but that he finished
my drawing.
835
00:41:12,303 --> 00:41:14,705
DAVID:
Is that
some sort of
validation for you?
836
00:41:14,738 --> 00:41:16,841
Um, well,
it made me feel like,
837
00:41:16,874 --> 00:41:21,478
"Yeah, okay.
Other people have noticed
this."
838
00:41:21,512 --> 00:41:26,550
And so yeah,
I guess it's a validation.
839
00:41:27,451 --> 00:41:28,886
So it did affect you?
840
00:41:29,653 --> 00:41:30,921
Oh, it did.
841
00:41:32,957 --> 00:41:35,826
I guess, I'm
vacillating maybe.
842
00:41:35,860 --> 00:41:40,898
Since that night in 2000,
anywhere that you've been out,
843
00:41:40,931 --> 00:41:45,069
-have you seen other
unidentified things in the
sky? -No.
844
00:41:45,102 --> 00:41:46,237
How about Mark and Rob?
845
00:41:46,270 --> 00:41:47,805
No, the same thing, you know,
846
00:41:47,838 --> 00:41:51,675
never really seen anything
that even...
847
00:41:52,409 --> 00:41:54,712
would have guessed at it.
848
00:41:54,745 --> 00:41:57,815
So, Rob, there's gonna be
people that watch this,
849
00:41:57,848 --> 00:41:59,984
and they're gonna say,
"I don't believe it,"
850
00:42:00,017 --> 00:42:02,052
you know, "It didn't happen,"
and all that,
851
00:42:02,086 --> 00:42:04,388
-these guys--
-And I would be one of them.
852
00:42:04,421 --> 00:42:06,991
-You'd be one of them?
-[LAUGHS] Yeah.
853
00:42:07,024 --> 00:42:09,193
So if you saw this story,
you wouldn't believe these
guys?
854
00:42:10,227 --> 00:42:12,863
Well, I'm skeptical.
855
00:42:14,064 --> 00:42:15,566
But I saw it.
856
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:18,502
And how many times
have you gone back
to that same site since?
857
00:42:18,535 --> 00:42:20,371
-The exact site?
-Yeah.
858
00:42:20,404 --> 00:42:21,705
Never.
859
00:42:25,242 --> 00:42:29,046
When we talk about
the triangle UFO sighting
by the hunters,
860
00:42:30,714 --> 00:42:37,521
I didn't realize at the time
but its location on a map
861
00:42:37,554 --> 00:42:42,192
coincides with
the first documentary I did
862
00:42:42,226 --> 00:42:47,197
called
Missing 411
that involved
the disappearance of DeOrr
Kunz.
863
00:42:47,231 --> 00:42:51,802
When I look at the map...
directly east,
864
00:42:53,003 --> 00:42:55,673
of the sighting of the
triangle by the hunters,
865
00:42:57,007 --> 00:43:00,244
is the exact location
that DeOrr disappeared.
866
00:43:01,845 --> 00:43:04,949
Now when you think about
the vastness of the
wilderness,
867
00:43:04,982 --> 00:43:07,851
what are the chances
that these two incidents
868
00:43:07,885 --> 00:43:10,788
happened in such a close
proximity to one another?
869
00:43:12,756 --> 00:43:15,793
But also looking at the map
and my case files,
870
00:43:16,660 --> 00:43:18,028
it also coincides
871
00:43:18,062 --> 00:43:21,332
with the disappearance
of Ray Jones.
872
00:43:21,365 --> 00:43:27,805
Now Ray was a 39-year-old
service station owner in
Salmon,
873
00:43:27,838 --> 00:43:30,741
who disappeared 53 years ago
874
00:43:30,774 --> 00:43:35,079
on a hunting expedition
with friends.
875
00:43:35,112 --> 00:43:38,115
They separated,
Ray disappeared,
876
00:43:39,183 --> 00:43:42,820
and for 53 years
he wasn't found.
877
00:43:44,488 --> 00:43:47,391
Now a group of hunters
878
00:43:47,424 --> 00:43:53,197
that saw this,
the triangular UFO,
their dad actually knew Ray.
879
00:43:53,230 --> 00:43:56,967
And so every time
they went out,
and hunted this area,
880
00:43:57,001 --> 00:44:00,037
they said that they were
looking for Ray as well.
881
00:44:00,070 --> 00:44:04,174
He wasn't found
and then he's found this year
882
00:44:04,208 --> 00:44:06,343
at the bottom
of a boulder field
883
00:44:06,377 --> 00:44:08,846
in an area that had been
previously searched
884
00:44:08,879 --> 00:44:10,347
dozens of times.
885
00:44:11,448 --> 00:44:12,883
Suddenly he's found there.
886
00:44:14,551 --> 00:44:17,287
And when you map
these three incidents,
887
00:44:18,822 --> 00:44:22,393
you have a very neat triangle.
888
00:44:24,028 --> 00:44:31,502
Which, weirdly, coincides
with the shape of the triangle
889
00:44:31,535 --> 00:44:33,771
that was drawn by the hunters.
890
00:44:45,816 --> 00:44:48,452
Are there any new major
developments in the case?
891
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:54,091
Not really.
892
00:44:54,124 --> 00:44:56,427
-Has DeOrr been found?
-No.
893
00:44:57,728 --> 00:44:59,363
Are there any named suspects?
894
00:45:01,198 --> 00:45:03,067
Not at this time.
895
00:45:04,768 --> 00:45:07,071
When an investigation
starts to push the limits
896
00:45:07,104 --> 00:45:09,673
of standard everyday
police protocol,
897
00:45:09,706 --> 00:45:11,241
I start to look
for professionals
898
00:45:11,275 --> 00:45:13,143
on the outside
that could assist me.
899
00:45:13,811 --> 00:45:15,913
I'm someone who's not
900
00:45:15,946 --> 00:45:18,415
so stubborn as to admit
what I don't know.
901
00:45:18,882 --> 00:45:20,551
And at this point,
902
00:45:20,584 --> 00:45:22,219
I looked for professional help
903
00:45:22,252 --> 00:45:26,490
in the name of
retired FBI agent John
DeSouza.
904
00:45:26,523 --> 00:45:27,958
My name is John DeSouza.
905
00:45:27,991 --> 00:45:31,295
I was an FBI special agent
for 25 years.
906
00:45:31,328 --> 00:45:35,132
I've worked all types of cases
counterterrorism,
907
00:45:35,165 --> 00:45:38,068
uh, violent crimes,
paranormal cases as well.
908
00:45:38,102 --> 00:45:40,771
And I am pretty well known
for that sort of thing.
909
00:45:40,804 --> 00:45:42,306
Now, your background
to me is interesting
910
00:45:42,339 --> 00:45:46,510
because you've worked
a variety of criminal cases.
911
00:45:46,543 --> 00:45:48,479
I worked on the
Unabomber case.
912
00:45:48,512 --> 00:45:53,383
I worked on 1994
World Trade Center bombing.
913
00:45:53,417 --> 00:45:55,252
DAVID:
The biggest case
you ever worked?
914
00:45:55,285 --> 00:45:56,954
JOHN:
It would
have to be 9/11.
915
00:45:56,987 --> 00:45:58,722
John, how many times
have you testified
916
00:45:58,755 --> 00:46:01,992
in front of the in front
of a U.S. Court
for a U.S. attorney?
917
00:46:02,025 --> 00:46:04,228
Maybe like 100 times.
918
00:46:04,261 --> 00:46:05,896
And how many times
has the court decided
919
00:46:05,929 --> 00:46:07,631
that you're an expert
in a certain area?
920
00:46:07,664 --> 00:46:09,333
Probably every time
I've testified.
921
00:46:09,366 --> 00:46:11,001
I can't think of anybody
922
00:46:11,034 --> 00:46:14,705
who's in a position
more to tell the truth,
923
00:46:14,738 --> 00:46:18,075
and with great things
to risk than you.
924
00:46:18,108 --> 00:46:19,676
No. No.
925
00:46:19,710 --> 00:46:22,079
I've had agents
in the past say,
926
00:46:22,112 --> 00:46:25,349
"Well, Dave,
if there is a series of events
927
00:46:26,049 --> 00:46:28,485
"that all kind of line up...
928
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:32,589
"similar to what you have
written about," meaning me,
929
00:46:32,623 --> 00:46:37,728
"then those agents could be
forwarding those reports
to a profiling unit,
930
00:46:37,761 --> 00:46:41,198
"and they're putting
the pieces together
to see if there's
connections."
931
00:46:41,231 --> 00:46:43,066
Exactly. Yeah, it's true, too.
932
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:45,969
So who would be
directing those agents?
933
00:46:46,003 --> 00:46:52,776
That could be Washington,
it could be profiler unit
of Behavioral Sciences Unit.
934
00:46:52,809 --> 00:46:58,348
Are there subject matter
experts on UFOs, aliens,
abductions?
935
00:46:58,382 --> 00:47:02,686
Well, that's what I was
while I was during the,
in the FBI.
936
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,022
And what was
your conclusion in general
937
00:47:05,055 --> 00:47:07,624
about these people
that claim abductions
938
00:47:07,658 --> 00:47:09,326
and disappear and come back?
939
00:47:09,359 --> 00:47:12,329
We report on the ones
that we talk about,
940
00:47:12,362 --> 00:47:14,431
um, those are real.
941
00:47:14,464 --> 00:47:19,336
And I do believe
that they are connected
942
00:47:19,369 --> 00:47:25,209
to extra dimensional beings,
beings that come from
outside of our reality.
943
00:47:25,242 --> 00:47:27,377
In many, many of my stories...
944
00:47:28,145 --> 00:47:31,181
uh, families in the woods...
945
00:47:31,215 --> 00:47:32,916
children are right
next to them...
946
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:35,385
Everything's fine.
947
00:47:35,419 --> 00:47:39,056
They turn around one second
and the kid's gone.
948
00:47:39,089 --> 00:47:40,724
They're not
anywhere to be found,
949
00:47:40,757 --> 00:47:42,226
and the statement
from the parents
950
00:47:42,259 --> 00:47:44,328
is, "They were right there,
951
00:47:44,361 --> 00:47:46,430
"and then the next second,
they're gone."
952
00:47:46,463 --> 00:47:48,131
Now, if that is true,
953
00:47:48,165 --> 00:47:50,500
that really does answer
a conundrum about
954
00:47:50,534 --> 00:47:53,870
-how they can disappear
and nobody can realize it?
-Right.
955
00:47:53,904 --> 00:47:58,375
Time period is so short
that their disappearance
956
00:47:58,408 --> 00:48:02,813
is not possible
in a purely physical world.
957
00:48:02,846 --> 00:48:06,316
So when you investigated
something like this,
958
00:48:06,350 --> 00:48:08,151
were you ever
questioned later on
959
00:48:08,185 --> 00:48:10,921
by other departments
or other agencies?
960
00:48:13,757 --> 00:48:15,892
No, not by other agencies, no.
961
00:48:15,926 --> 00:48:17,961
Departments?
962
00:48:17,995 --> 00:48:21,498
No. They don't
want to know this sort of
thing
963
00:48:21,531 --> 00:48:26,536
as much as...
as much as they can avoid
the knowledge of this. No.
964
00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:27,804
Long time ago,
965
00:48:27,838 --> 00:48:29,873
this is back
when I was a policeman,
966
00:48:29,906 --> 00:48:31,541
and there were some FBI guys
967
00:48:31,575 --> 00:48:34,144
that were working a case
on something else.
968
00:48:34,177 --> 00:48:35,746
We were talking about,
969
00:48:35,779 --> 00:48:38,348
I don't even think it was
anything spooky or paranormal,
970
00:48:38,382 --> 00:48:42,052
but it was something unrelated
and the agent said,
971
00:48:42,085 --> 00:48:46,857
"Dave, our government
will never acknowledge
what they can't control."
972
00:48:46,890 --> 00:48:49,059
And I always
remembered that statement.
973
00:48:49,092 --> 00:48:52,095
-Do you believe that?
-Yeah, that's absolutely true.
974
00:48:52,129 --> 00:48:55,365
They can't acknowledge it
if they can't control it,
975
00:48:55,399 --> 00:48:59,136
or even if they think
they can't control it.
976
00:49:01,505 --> 00:49:03,674
Wow. What can I say?
977
00:49:03,707 --> 00:49:09,980
John DeSouza fits your
typical model of an FBI agent,
978
00:49:10,013 --> 00:49:11,381
and I've dealt with several
979
00:49:11,415 --> 00:49:13,483
during my years
in law enforcement.
980
00:49:13,517 --> 00:49:17,254
Ultra-credible,
tons of experience,
981
00:49:17,287 --> 00:49:20,457
a stand-up guy
who is speaking the truth.
982
00:49:21,391 --> 00:49:24,728
And during my time
sitting in his office,
983
00:49:25,929 --> 00:49:30,233
you probably couldn't tell,
but I was in stunned silence
984
00:49:30,267 --> 00:49:35,272
just listening to how
he laid out the groundwork
985
00:49:35,305 --> 00:49:38,241
for so many issues
related to our work.
986
00:49:38,275 --> 00:49:42,379
And he brought
instant credibility
987
00:49:42,412 --> 00:49:44,014
to an arena
988
00:49:44,047 --> 00:49:46,450
where a lot of people
don't even wanna address.
989
00:49:47,584 --> 00:49:49,519
John's statement
990
00:49:49,553 --> 00:49:56,993
about parallel dimensions,
his overview of missing people
991
00:49:57,027 --> 00:49:59,062
and his statement
about our work,
992
00:50:00,030 --> 00:50:04,101
all fell right in line
with the 1,500 people
993
00:50:04,134 --> 00:50:06,670
I've documented
in the last 12 years.
994
00:50:07,871 --> 00:50:10,173
But that brings up
a one of the cases
995
00:50:10,207 --> 00:50:13,543
that has continually sat
in the back of my mind.
996
00:50:13,577 --> 00:50:15,312
That's the incident
of the disappearance
997
00:50:15,345 --> 00:50:17,447
of Reinhard
Kirchner in Arizona.
998
00:50:19,182 --> 00:50:20,517
So this is the spot.
999
00:50:20,550 --> 00:50:22,486
In April 2007,
1000
00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:25,522
Reinhard Kirchner
made his way from Germany.
1001
00:50:26,156 --> 00:50:28,225
He was a physicist.
1002
00:50:28,258 --> 00:50:30,694
He drove his rented
camper truck here,
1003
00:50:30,727 --> 00:50:34,431
parked it and started to hike.
1004
00:50:34,464 --> 00:50:37,634
He'd been here before,
and he liked it.
1005
00:50:37,667 --> 00:50:41,605
Reinhard didn't
make his meeting
with his girlfriend
1006
00:50:41,638 --> 00:50:46,009
at Las Vegas McCarran Airport,
she called search and rescue.
1007
00:50:46,042 --> 00:50:51,314
Eventually found his truck
parked here on Navajo
property.
1008
00:50:51,348 --> 00:50:55,619
Started to search several
days. They found nothing.
1009
00:50:55,652 --> 00:50:59,823
They know
that he took his camera
and took a small backpack
1010
00:50:59,856 --> 00:51:01,358
and he walked into oblivion.
1011
00:51:02,993 --> 00:51:04,594
Interesting part
of the case was
1012
00:51:04,628 --> 00:51:07,464
while the Sheriff
was at his truck,
1013
00:51:08,298 --> 00:51:10,000
there were some local ranchers
1014
00:51:10,033 --> 00:51:11,401
that walked up
and talked to him,
1015
00:51:11,435 --> 00:51:13,270
and these people said that
1016
00:51:13,303 --> 00:51:14,905
during the time
Reinhard was gone,
1017
00:51:14,938 --> 00:51:19,843
they had seen
unusual lights in the sky
here.
1018
00:51:19,876 --> 00:51:23,647
And what is important
about that to me
as a law enforcement person,
1019
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,617
is that they put that
in the report as credible.
1020
00:51:27,651 --> 00:51:30,153
His girlfriend eventually
flew home to Germany.
1021
00:51:30,187 --> 00:51:34,391
It's been over a decade,
Reinhard and his property
has never been found.
1022
00:51:34,424 --> 00:51:36,927
What compelled
Reinhard to this location?
1023
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,228
The case remains open,
1024
00:51:38,261 --> 00:51:40,964
and we may
never find the answers.
1025
00:51:40,997 --> 00:51:44,067
There is one particular case
where credibility
and evidence merge
1026
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:48,238
in one of the most bizarre
cases I've ever investigated.
1027
00:51:48,271 --> 00:51:50,073
One where the hunter
reappeared with a story
1028
00:51:50,106 --> 00:51:52,409
that tested
the limits of believability
1029
00:51:52,442 --> 00:51:54,544
yet captured my imagination
1030
00:51:54,578 --> 00:51:57,280
and strangely
physical evidence.
1031
00:51:58,915 --> 00:52:00,450
My name is Carl Higdon.
1032
00:52:01,718 --> 00:52:05,255
And this is
to talk about an incident
1033
00:52:05,288 --> 00:52:08,725
that happened in 1974.
1034
00:52:10,827 --> 00:52:12,395
I told my wife that,
1035
00:52:12,429 --> 00:52:14,931
I'm gonna go south
and go hunting.
1036
00:52:14,965 --> 00:52:18,101
DAVID: What percentage
of the time
that he went out hunting
1037
00:52:18,134 --> 00:52:19,703
did you go with him?
1038
00:52:19,736 --> 00:52:21,204
MARJORIE: Always.
1039
00:52:21,238 --> 00:52:23,673
-Except this time?
-Yes.
1040
00:52:23,707 --> 00:52:27,744
Carl and I are together,
mostly 24/7.
1041
00:52:27,777 --> 00:52:30,547
So on October 25th, '74...
1042
00:52:30,580 --> 00:52:33,283
He went, he went out
by himself completely.
1043
00:52:33,316 --> 00:52:35,185
DAVID:
And was that a rare occasion?
1044
00:52:35,218 --> 00:52:36,586
MARJORIE:
Yes, very rare.
1045
00:52:37,487 --> 00:52:40,624
So that area
where this happened,
1046
00:52:40,657 --> 00:52:42,626
had you ever been
there before?
1047
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:44,561
No.
1048
00:52:44,594 --> 00:52:46,696
Describe the best you can
where this happened at,
1049
00:52:46,730 --> 00:52:51,234
-which forest were you in?
-Medicine Bow National Forest.
1050
00:52:52,068 --> 00:52:55,438
The area that
this happened in,
1051
00:52:55,472 --> 00:52:58,842
was back to
the north, right at the edge
of the forest.
1052
00:53:00,577 --> 00:53:04,614
So I got inside
the national forest.
1053
00:53:04,648 --> 00:53:08,752
I walked down
maybe three-quarter
of a mile.
1054
00:53:09,886 --> 00:53:11,588
I had seen five elk.
1055
00:53:12,822 --> 00:53:14,224
They didn't move.
1056
00:53:14,991 --> 00:53:16,793
There was another
strange thing.
1057
00:53:16,826 --> 00:53:18,428
They what? Say that again?
1058
00:53:18,461 --> 00:53:19,663
They didn't move.
1059
00:53:20,430 --> 00:53:21,865
They just sat there.
1060
00:53:22,966 --> 00:53:28,438
Carl entered the woods,
lined up on a series of elk.
1061
00:53:28,471 --> 00:53:31,207
He even said
that the elk weren't moving,
1062
00:53:31,241 --> 00:53:34,010
leveled his rifle
at the animals,
1063
00:53:34,044 --> 00:53:35,111
pulled the trigger.
1064
00:53:35,145 --> 00:53:36,913
He says his gun went off.
1065
00:53:38,281 --> 00:53:41,251
The bullet came out
the end of the barrel
1066
00:53:41,284 --> 00:53:44,688
and hit some type
of invisible force field
1067
00:53:45,355 --> 00:53:46,790
and dropped to the ground.
1068
00:53:48,124 --> 00:53:49,960
That bullet
was recovered by Carl
1069
00:53:49,993 --> 00:53:53,530
and later analyzed,
and it did hit something,
1070
00:53:54,197 --> 00:53:56,600
what, we don't know.
1071
00:53:56,633 --> 00:54:01,571
But the unusual nature
of the travel
of that ammunition
1072
00:54:01,605 --> 00:54:05,275
is so odd
that I've never heard of it
1073
00:54:05,308 --> 00:54:07,777
in any type of
research before.
1074
00:54:07,811 --> 00:54:10,513
You're standing there.
You shot the rifle.
1075
00:54:10,547 --> 00:54:14,084
You're turning
and you see the craft.
1076
00:54:14,117 --> 00:54:17,420
Give me as much detail
as you can on that craft,
Carl.
1077
00:54:18,855 --> 00:54:22,559
Well, it was like looking
at a piece of glass.
1078
00:54:24,527 --> 00:54:27,063
Only it had motors around it.
1079
00:54:28,898 --> 00:54:31,701
I couldn't figure out
what it was to start with.
1080
00:54:31,735 --> 00:54:34,504
So when you're looking
at the at the cube,
1081
00:54:34,537 --> 00:54:37,407
can you see through it
and see forest behind it?
1082
00:54:37,641 --> 00:54:39,042
Yes.
1083
00:54:39,075 --> 00:54:41,378
Was there anything
in the cube?
1084
00:54:41,411 --> 00:54:43,113
Not that I could see.
1085
00:54:43,146 --> 00:54:48,018
So it was just like
a glass square on four sides,
1086
00:54:48,051 --> 00:54:51,788
seven foot-by-five foot
with nothing inside it,
1087
00:54:51,821 --> 00:54:53,490
and you can
kind of see through it.
1088
00:54:53,523 --> 00:54:54,858
CARL:
Right.
1089
00:54:54,891 --> 00:54:57,193
What did you think
when you first saw it?
1090
00:54:57,227 --> 00:54:59,796
[LAUGHS] I didn't know.
1091
00:54:59,829 --> 00:55:05,902
I just kinda stared at it
because it was unusual.
1092
00:55:05,935 --> 00:55:12,375
Then this guy showed up
and asked me if I was hungry.
1093
00:55:13,209 --> 00:55:15,078
Told him, "Yeah."
1094
00:55:15,111 --> 00:55:20,517
So this packet of four pills
drifted over to me,
1095
00:55:20,550 --> 00:55:23,420
just like it was thrown at me.
1096
00:55:25,955 --> 00:55:28,124
I took one.
1097
00:55:28,158 --> 00:55:34,664
Next thing I know
I was in this cubicle,
but it looked a lot nearer.
1098
00:55:35,699 --> 00:55:37,701
There's five elk behind me.
1099
00:55:37,734 --> 00:55:39,703
I said, "You got my elk."
1100
00:55:41,204 --> 00:55:43,406
He just looked at me
and shrugged.
1101
00:55:44,541 --> 00:55:46,643
Told me
that his name was Ausso...
1102
00:55:48,745 --> 00:55:51,815
and they were down here
to get food.
1103
00:55:53,583 --> 00:55:55,652
I said, "You guys
always come down?"
1104
00:55:55,685 --> 00:55:59,489
He said, "Yeah.
We come down every so often.
1105
00:55:59,522 --> 00:56:03,960
"We get elk, deer from here.
1106
00:56:03,993 --> 00:56:08,998
"And go the ocean
and get fish and take it
back."
1107
00:56:09,032 --> 00:56:12,502
MARJORIE: This is the drawing
that Carl drew in the
hospital.
1108
00:56:12,535 --> 00:56:15,905
And the, the being
had a, like a hand,
1109
00:56:15,939 --> 00:56:19,409
that was a cone
and no hand here,
1110
00:56:19,442 --> 00:56:21,144
and his hair was like straw.
1111
00:56:23,046 --> 00:56:25,648
-And--
-DAVID: So this is
a very descriptive drawing.
1112
00:56:25,682 --> 00:56:27,951
What are these little things?
1113
00:56:27,984 --> 00:56:30,153
MARJORIE: Um,
this is kind of an apron,
1114
00:56:30,186 --> 00:56:34,824
and it shows where the uh,
kind of where the land is,
1115
00:56:34,858 --> 00:56:36,059
in his planet.
1116
00:56:36,092 --> 00:56:38,628
Did he-- Did Ausso
seem to have a personality?
1117
00:56:40,864 --> 00:56:41,865
He seemed to.
1118
00:56:42,966 --> 00:56:44,067
Like...
1119
00:56:46,002 --> 00:56:49,672
When he talked to me,
his lips never moved.
1120
00:56:49,706 --> 00:56:52,709
I mean, it was back and forth.
1121
00:56:55,011 --> 00:56:56,079
But...
1122
00:56:58,581 --> 00:57:00,383
He seemed like he knew a lot.
1123
00:57:00,416 --> 00:57:03,987
-What color was his suit?
-Black.
1124
00:57:04,020 --> 00:57:05,221
DAVID: Black.
1125
00:57:05,255 --> 00:57:07,724
The entire suit was black?
1126
00:57:07,757 --> 00:57:12,262
MARJORIE: Completely black
because our sun burns them.
1127
00:57:12,862 --> 00:57:14,564
So they have to wear black
1128
00:57:14,597 --> 00:57:19,002
and they wear like, uh,
like a scuba diver's suit.
1129
00:57:19,035 --> 00:57:20,904
Covers them completely.
1130
00:57:20,937 --> 00:57:23,139
Did Carl ever say
if he only had one hand
1131
00:57:23,173 --> 00:57:25,775
-and didn't draw the second?
-Mm-hmm. Yes.
1132
00:57:25,809 --> 00:57:27,944
He did not
have another hand here.
1133
00:57:27,977 --> 00:57:30,079
But he had
like a cone over here.
1134
00:57:30,113 --> 00:57:33,483
Carl ever have an opinion
if this was a male or a
female?
1135
00:57:33,516 --> 00:57:37,220
-Uh, oh, he figures
it was a male.
-A male.
1136
00:57:37,253 --> 00:57:41,891
And then this is uh picture
of the, um, the craft.
1137
00:57:42,692 --> 00:57:44,694
And this was the controls.
1138
00:57:44,727 --> 00:57:50,033
This is where Ausso sat
and this is where Carl sat.
1139
00:57:50,066 --> 00:57:54,671
And there was still
five elk in here also.
1140
00:57:54,704 --> 00:57:56,806
And when we lifted off...
1141
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:02,145
and then I could see
it looked like a ball...
down below.
1142
00:58:03,379 --> 00:58:05,215
I figured it was the Earth.
1143
00:58:05,248 --> 00:58:06,516
I didn't know.
1144
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:07,851
And he was taken
to some place that could
1145
00:58:07,884 --> 00:58:09,686
best be described
as another planet.
1146
00:58:09,719 --> 00:58:11,087
It took him behind a screen
1147
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,557
and eventually said,
"We don't need you.
1148
00:58:14,591 --> 00:58:16,192
"You don't fit what we need."
1149
00:58:16,226 --> 00:58:18,862
The implication to Carl being
is that he had a vasectomy
1150
00:58:18,895 --> 00:58:22,565
and they needed somebody
that was 100-percent fertile.
1151
00:58:22,599 --> 00:58:26,369
CARL:
I said, "What?
I got to go home?"
1152
00:58:26,402 --> 00:58:29,906
And he said, "Don't worry.
Somebody'll come get you,"
1153
00:58:29,939 --> 00:58:36,045
and dropped me off
and I hit side of this hill
and rolled down it.
1154
00:58:36,646 --> 00:58:38,982
This is a critical point.
1155
00:58:39,015 --> 00:58:41,918
When Carl explained
that he was dropped,
1156
00:58:41,951 --> 00:58:45,288
I have investigated
hundreds of cases
1157
00:58:45,321 --> 00:58:47,290
with unusual circumstances
1158
00:58:47,323 --> 00:58:51,194
that show that someone
was dropped into that
location.
1159
00:58:51,227 --> 00:58:54,731
This isn't something
that's normally talked about
in investigations.
1160
00:58:54,764 --> 00:58:56,599
A lot of times
it's just pushed off
1161
00:58:56,633 --> 00:58:58,801
as happenstance
and an accident
1162
00:58:58,835 --> 00:59:01,304
that the person
fell into the place.
1163
00:59:01,337 --> 00:59:04,908
There's much more to this
and Carl has explained it.
1164
00:59:04,941 --> 00:59:09,012
It was after I got off work,
I felt the need to go to him.
1165
00:59:09,045 --> 00:59:13,516
I felt that he needed me,
that I had to go help him.
1166
00:59:13,549 --> 00:59:17,453
DAVID:
So you get out there,
you have the sheriff there
1167
00:59:17,487 --> 00:59:20,056
and everyone's looking.
1168
00:59:20,089 --> 00:59:23,259
You're sitting on the hill,
and you eventually get told
1169
00:59:23,293 --> 00:59:25,028
-that they found Carl?
-Mm-hmm.
1170
00:59:25,061 --> 00:59:27,830
The Deputy Sheriff
got out of the pickup,
1171
00:59:28,564 --> 00:59:30,767
crouched down with his gun,
1172
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,169
ready to shoot Carl
if he had to
1173
00:59:33,202 --> 00:59:37,106
because we did not know,
what, what was going on?
1174
00:59:37,140 --> 00:59:40,610
So, so from visually
looking at Carl then,
1175
00:59:42,011 --> 00:59:44,013
did he even seem like
it was your husband?
1176
00:59:44,047 --> 00:59:47,850
Uh, he kept looking out
through the windshield
1177
00:59:47,884 --> 00:59:51,587
and saying, "My elk, my elk,
They took my elk.
1178
00:59:51,621 --> 00:59:53,623
"They took my elk."
1179
00:59:53,656 --> 00:59:55,224
Who did you think,
"they" were?
1180
00:59:55,258 --> 00:59:57,627
I had no idea
what he was even talking
about.
1181
00:59:57,660 --> 01:00:00,964
-DAVID:
So at the hospital,
they do a full examination?
-Mm-hmm.
1182
01:00:00,997 --> 01:00:04,400
They checked him over
with a fine-tooth comb.
1183
01:00:04,434 --> 01:00:08,037
First, they wanted to know
if he was on any drugs.
1184
01:00:08,071 --> 01:00:09,639
He was not.
1185
01:00:09,672 --> 01:00:13,076
And when I ask him,
the Dr. Tongco,
1186
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:16,245
about, about the spots
on his lungs,
1187
01:00:16,279 --> 01:00:18,748
he said, "What spots?
There are no spots."
1188
01:00:18,781 --> 01:00:21,985
And in the X-ray,
they found that
his lungs were completely
clear,
1189
01:00:22,018 --> 01:00:25,188
which was highly
suspicious and unusual
1190
01:00:25,221 --> 01:00:28,424
because Carl had
tuberculosis scars
on his lungs.
1191
01:00:28,458 --> 01:00:32,795
So something happened
while he was gone
that cleared that up.
1192
01:00:32,829 --> 01:00:34,097
At the time,
did you think that
1193
01:00:34,130 --> 01:00:36,499
maybe something
happened on that ship
1194
01:00:36,532 --> 01:00:38,368
that they made
you pure and clean?
1195
01:00:41,137 --> 01:00:44,807
No, I think it was,
when I was behind the screen
up there
1196
01:00:45,708 --> 01:00:49,312
because that's what he said,
1197
01:00:49,345 --> 01:00:52,281
"You're not what we want.
We'll take you back."
1198
01:00:53,249 --> 01:00:58,021
And I figured it was
because of my vasectomy.
1199
01:00:58,054 --> 01:00:59,722
But I'm not sure of that.
1200
01:01:00,723 --> 01:01:03,426
DAVID: If it was
because of the vasectomy,
1201
01:01:03,459 --> 01:01:06,462
was the insinuation
that if you didn't have one,
1202
01:01:06,496 --> 01:01:07,997
you weren't coming back?
1203
01:01:09,098 --> 01:01:10,767
[LAUGHING]
1204
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,336
That's what I gathered.
1205
01:01:13,369 --> 01:01:17,907
So Carl insinuates
that the entities
didn't want him
1206
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:21,811
because his reproductive
system wasn't intact.
1207
01:01:23,413 --> 01:01:25,982
Now, if it was,
1208
01:01:26,015 --> 01:01:29,285
we probably wouldn't even
be talking about this story.
1209
01:01:32,021 --> 01:01:33,523
DAVID:
So I read a name
1210
01:01:33,556 --> 01:01:36,192
and you can explain
this to me, Dr. Leo Sprinkle.
1211
01:01:36,225 --> 01:01:38,728
How did he
come into the picture
and what did he do?
1212
01:01:38,761 --> 01:01:40,430
MARJORIE:
He
was a psychologist,
1213
01:01:40,463 --> 01:01:44,133
and he was with
the University of Wyoming.
1214
01:01:44,167 --> 01:01:50,139
And he studies UFO-people,
contactees.
1215
01:01:50,173 --> 01:01:53,142
He could not say that
he actually believed him.
1216
01:01:53,176 --> 01:01:55,111
But he couldn't say
that he did not.
1217
01:01:55,144 --> 01:01:57,346
Carl took a lie detector test.
1218
01:01:57,380 --> 01:02:00,850
In fact, he took, I don't
know, three or four of them.
1219
01:02:00,883 --> 01:02:02,485
What were the
results of those?
1220
01:02:02,518 --> 01:02:04,954
MARJORIE:
He's telling
the truth as he believes.
1221
01:02:06,756 --> 01:02:09,192
CHRIS:
I don't know
what other people think.
1222
01:02:11,427 --> 01:02:14,797
But if they don't believe it,
they don't have to.
1223
01:02:17,233 --> 01:02:19,202
I mean, everybody
got their own opinion.
1224
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:22,238
I know what happened to me.
1225
01:02:26,976 --> 01:02:28,478
I'm Richard Beckwith.
1226
01:02:28,511 --> 01:02:31,547
I am the city attorney
for the city of Rock Springs.
1227
01:02:31,581 --> 01:02:35,284
I'm also the state director
for the Mutual UFO Network
1228
01:02:35,318 --> 01:02:37,286
and I have been
a practicing attorney
1229
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,222
for the last 26 years.
1230
01:02:39,255 --> 01:02:41,891
Can you give us
a general overview
of what MUFON does?
1231
01:02:41,924 --> 01:02:44,594
We are a worldwide
or global organization
1232
01:02:44,627 --> 01:02:48,397
dedicated to the study of UFOs
for the benefit of humanity.
1233
01:02:48,431 --> 01:02:51,300
And I'd like to think that
that is exactly what we do.
1234
01:02:51,334 --> 01:02:55,471
An incident that I
interviewed, the victim about
1235
01:02:55,505 --> 01:02:57,707
was a man named Carl Higdon.
1236
01:02:57,740 --> 01:02:59,308
I do remember
that taking place.
1237
01:02:59,342 --> 01:03:01,377
I think I was 14 years old
when it happened.
1238
01:03:01,410 --> 01:03:02,945
I'd like to know
your thoughts about it.
1239
01:03:02,979 --> 01:03:04,180
Well, first of all, I don't,
1240
01:03:04,213 --> 01:03:06,082
I don't think
that Carl was lying.
1241
01:03:06,115 --> 01:03:08,951
I know Dr Sprinkle very well,
Dr. Leo Sprinkle.
1242
01:03:08,985 --> 01:03:12,989
He investigated that case
and did some hypnosis,
1243
01:03:13,022 --> 01:03:15,024
some regressive hypnosis
with Mr. Higdon,
1244
01:03:15,057 --> 01:03:19,495
and his impression of the case
was that Mr. Higdon
was telling the truth,
1245
01:03:19,529 --> 01:03:21,831
or at least what
he believed to be the truth.
1246
01:03:21,864 --> 01:03:25,801
So some of the things
about that case
to me reeked of credibility.
1247
01:03:25,835 --> 01:03:31,240
He had lung congestion
and scarring on his lungs
before the incident.
1248
01:03:31,908 --> 01:03:34,177
And subsequent to it...
1249
01:03:34,210 --> 01:03:36,179
-His lungs were clear.
-RICHARD: Yeah.
1250
01:03:36,212 --> 01:03:40,049
DAVID: And then
the issue about the bullet
1251
01:03:40,082 --> 01:03:42,451
coming out of the gun
and stopping
after hitting something
1252
01:03:42,485 --> 01:03:45,321
-and being recovered
and even analyzed...
-Right. Yeah.
1253
01:03:46,022 --> 01:03:47,423
They did examine the bullet
1254
01:03:47,456 --> 01:03:50,126
and find that
it had struck something
1255
01:03:50,159 --> 01:03:52,828
and something really hard.
1256
01:03:52,862 --> 01:03:55,665
It has these
physiological characteristics
1257
01:03:55,698 --> 01:03:57,533
that are just unexplained.
1258
01:03:57,567 --> 01:04:00,169
DAVID: So in your experience
and in your readings
1259
01:04:00,203 --> 01:04:02,038
of people
who have been abducted,
1260
01:04:03,005 --> 01:04:04,840
how does
the Higdon case compare
1261
01:04:04,874 --> 01:04:07,810
as far as the
physical evidence?
1262
01:04:07,843 --> 01:04:14,584
Most abduction cases
don't really involve
a lot of physical evidence.
1263
01:04:14,617 --> 01:04:16,686
We have the Higdon incident,
1264
01:04:16,719 --> 01:04:18,854
a hunter,
1265
01:04:18,888 --> 01:04:22,992
German surname,
hunting elk by himself,
1266
01:04:23,025 --> 01:04:24,527
claims he has been abducted.
1267
01:04:25,795 --> 01:04:29,398
In that same general area,
just last year,
1268
01:04:29,432 --> 01:04:32,568
there was a guy
named Mark Strittmater,
you know about that case?
1269
01:04:32,602 --> 01:04:34,070
RICHARD:
A couple
of different things
1270
01:04:34,103 --> 01:04:35,905
that I find interesting
about that case is that
1271
01:04:35,938 --> 01:04:38,741
you've got an individual
that's the same age,
1272
01:04:38,774 --> 01:04:40,409
approximately as Mr. Higdon,
1273
01:04:40,443 --> 01:04:43,312
also about
the same time of year.
1274
01:04:43,346 --> 01:04:47,850
Mr. Higdon's incident took
place on October 25th 1974,
1275
01:04:47,883 --> 01:04:52,755
and Mr. Strittmater went
missing on October 19th,
1276
01:04:52,788 --> 01:04:58,794
of 2019,
almost 35 years
exactly to the day
1277
01:04:58,828 --> 01:05:01,230
in a relatively
similar location.
1278
01:05:03,132 --> 01:05:05,568
DAVID: So we're on
Forest Road 801...
1279
01:05:06,202 --> 01:05:10,006
And we are in the area
1280
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:13,309
where Mark Strittmater
was coming
1281
01:05:13,342 --> 01:05:16,245
to go elk hunting
on October 19th, 2019
1282
01:05:16,279 --> 01:05:18,281
in the
Medicine Bow National Forest.
1283
01:05:19,315 --> 01:05:23,119
In about 200 yards
before Forest Road 830,
1284
01:05:23,152 --> 01:05:26,355
he pulls to the side of the
road for some reason,
1285
01:05:26,389 --> 01:05:28,257
and there's
some theories behind,
1286
01:05:28,291 --> 01:05:31,060
maybe he was pulling over
because he saw
1287
01:05:31,093 --> 01:05:32,495
one of his hunting targets,
1288
01:05:32,528 --> 01:05:36,098
big bull across the road,
deer, who knows?
1289
01:05:36,132 --> 01:05:38,267
But he pulls to the side
of the road
1290
01:05:38,301 --> 01:05:41,637
stops, gets out
of his vehicle,
1291
01:05:41,671 --> 01:05:44,006
and he takes a light coat,
1292
01:05:45,041 --> 01:05:48,277
a light day pack
leaves his big pack in the
car,
1293
01:05:49,111 --> 01:05:51,113
leaves his keys
in the vehicle,
1294
01:05:51,814 --> 01:05:53,049
and he gets out.
1295
01:05:54,517 --> 01:05:57,453
Off camera, the search
and rescue person told me
1296
01:05:57,486 --> 01:06:03,192
that Mark
was a 15-year veteran
outfitter,
1297
01:06:03,225 --> 01:06:05,294
for Big-Game in this area.
1298
01:06:05,328 --> 01:06:08,464
So he knew
the outdoors super well.
1299
01:06:08,497 --> 01:06:09,732
He knew how to track
1300
01:06:09,765 --> 01:06:12,735
and he knew elk
didn't walk in a straight
line.
1301
01:06:12,768 --> 01:06:14,637
Elk take off and they wander.
1302
01:06:14,670 --> 01:06:18,341
So to think that
Mark is more than a mile,
1303
01:06:18,374 --> 01:06:21,344
two miles from here,
chasing an elk,
doesn't make a lot of sense.
1304
01:06:21,977 --> 01:06:23,245
My name is Kim Meese.
1305
01:06:23,279 --> 01:06:24,814
I was girlfriend
of Mark Strittmater
1306
01:06:24,847 --> 01:06:26,115
when he went missing.
1307
01:06:26,148 --> 01:06:27,383
In your view what--
1308
01:06:27,416 --> 01:06:29,285
Wait, what made Mark special?
1309
01:06:29,318 --> 01:06:32,154
He was just a giving person.
1310
01:06:33,322 --> 01:06:35,825
So how comfortable
was he in the woods?
1311
01:06:35,858 --> 01:06:37,793
Oh, he grew up in the woods.
1312
01:06:37,827 --> 01:06:42,298
He started hunting as soon
as he could, 12, 13 years old.
1313
01:06:42,331 --> 01:06:44,367
-He knew what he was doing.
-Oh, yeah.
1314
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,169
In the area
that he went missing from,
1315
01:06:47,203 --> 01:06:49,271
where I found his truck at,
1316
01:06:49,305 --> 01:06:51,574
we never hunted that area.
1317
01:06:51,607 --> 01:06:53,209
But that morning
that he had went out
1318
01:06:53,242 --> 01:06:56,045
on the 19th
that he went missing,
1319
01:06:56,078 --> 01:06:58,347
I had already made plans
to come to Rawlins
1320
01:06:59,048 --> 01:07:01,283
to watch my grandkids.
1321
01:07:01,317 --> 01:07:03,652
And he knew that
there was a snowstorm coming
in
1322
01:07:03,686 --> 01:07:05,588
and I was worried about him.
1323
01:07:05,621 --> 01:07:09,325
And, uh, he tried calling
and sent me a text
1324
01:07:09,358 --> 01:07:14,697
and said that
he had missed an elk
and that he was done.
1325
01:07:14,730 --> 01:07:17,666
So I assumed
he was coming back to
Saratoga,
1326
01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:22,271
which is a 40-minute drive
from where we hunt from.
1327
01:07:22,304 --> 01:07:24,407
So I hung out
around the house
for a little bit
1328
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:27,510
and he never showed up
and I left,
1329
01:07:27,543 --> 01:07:30,446
and I was trying
to get hold of him that night
1330
01:07:30,479 --> 01:07:32,615
to make sure
he made it back
before the snow hit
1331
01:07:32,648 --> 01:07:37,353
and trying to call and text
and texts weren't delivered.
1332
01:07:37,386 --> 01:07:40,256
Phone calls are going
directly to voicemail.
1333
01:07:40,289 --> 01:07:43,759
I hauled ass up there,
looking for the truck.
1334
01:07:43,793 --> 01:07:46,762
And then when I got
to that intersection,
I looked to my left,
1335
01:07:46,796 --> 01:07:49,231
and that's where I saw
the pickup was sitting.
1336
01:07:50,132 --> 01:07:51,667
Explain how it was sitting?
1337
01:07:51,700 --> 01:07:56,505
It was on the east side
of the road facing north.
1338
01:07:57,807 --> 01:08:01,277
-Did it look like
he parked it there?
-Yeah.
1339
01:08:01,310 --> 01:08:03,712
-Did it look out of place
to you at all?
-Yeah. Yeah.
1340
01:08:03,746 --> 01:08:05,114
-It did?
-It did.
1341
01:08:05,147 --> 01:08:08,918
And when I got to it,
like I said it had snowed
1342
01:08:08,951 --> 01:08:14,557
and I had to clean off
probably 12, 15 inches of snow
just to get into it.
1343
01:08:14,590 --> 01:08:19,995
And when we would hunt,
we always left our key
in our gas tank,
1344
01:08:20,029 --> 01:08:22,665
so I was able
to get in the truck,
1345
01:08:22,698 --> 01:08:27,036
and that's when I found
his phone and cigarettes,
his medication.
1346
01:08:27,069 --> 01:08:30,506
The only thing that was
missing was him and his pack
and gun.
1347
01:08:30,539 --> 01:08:33,709
So when he texted you last,
what did it say?
1348
01:08:33,742 --> 01:08:37,313
The last text it says,
I got it at 11 o'clock
1349
01:08:37,346 --> 01:08:38,781
says... [READING]
1350
01:08:52,261 --> 01:08:56,532
So from that, it kind of
sounded like he was done?
1351
01:08:56,565 --> 01:08:58,467
Yeah, and that's
what I assumed
1352
01:08:58,501 --> 01:09:00,703
that maybe
he was coming back to town.
1353
01:09:00,736 --> 01:09:03,906
You find the truck,
you can't find him?
1354
01:09:03,939 --> 01:09:07,343
Do you look around at all?
Or do you just call Sheriff?
1355
01:09:07,376 --> 01:09:09,778
No, I walked around the area,
1356
01:09:09,812 --> 01:09:12,915
just to see if I could see
any tracks or anything.
1357
01:09:13,782 --> 01:09:15,417
And I didn't see anything.
1358
01:09:16,151 --> 01:09:18,654
So I came back to Saratoga
1359
01:09:18,687 --> 01:09:20,890
and called
the sheriff's deputy.
1360
01:09:20,923 --> 01:09:23,692
So right off the
bat we came in.
1361
01:09:23,726 --> 01:09:25,027
The first day we came in
1362
01:09:25,060 --> 01:09:26,262
with a whole bunch
of ground pounders
1363
01:09:26,295 --> 01:09:28,397
and we just went
shoulder-to-shoulder
1364
01:09:28,430 --> 01:09:29,932
and walked timber.
1365
01:09:29,965 --> 01:09:31,800
And then we went around
and picked a different spot
1366
01:09:31,834 --> 01:09:34,503
near the truck
and chose a different
direction
1367
01:09:34,537 --> 01:09:36,405
and started
pounding more timber.
1368
01:09:36,438 --> 01:09:39,942
DAVID:
That initial search,
how many days did it last?
1369
01:09:39,975 --> 01:09:44,713
The first time around,
I think, was seven days,
if I'm not mistaken.
1370
01:09:44,747 --> 01:09:48,017
It's like I said,
we were gone
for the first two days of it,
1371
01:09:48,050 --> 01:09:52,254
then we got back,
we took off and looked for
him,
1372
01:09:52,288 --> 01:09:54,690
and I think total
I had five days in it.
1373
01:09:54,723 --> 01:09:57,359
And was there
a subsequent effort to find?
1374
01:09:57,393 --> 01:10:01,463
We did go back the spring,
um, we spent a full day
1375
01:10:01,497 --> 01:10:05,768
with quite a few resources out
and three different dog teams.
1376
01:10:05,801 --> 01:10:08,571
Did your canines hit
on any scent anywhere?
1377
01:10:08,604 --> 01:10:10,339
BRYCE:
I never had a hit.
1378
01:10:10,372 --> 01:10:12,408
How odd is it
not to pick up any scent?
1379
01:10:14,043 --> 01:10:15,544
Very.
1380
01:10:15,578 --> 01:10:16,912
As much ground as we covered
1381
01:10:16,946 --> 01:10:20,249
in as many different
wind patterns as we hit,
1382
01:10:20,282 --> 01:10:22,851
you would think,
you know, law of averages,
1383
01:10:22,885 --> 01:10:24,787
you'd at least get
a head turn out of it.
1384
01:10:24,820 --> 01:10:26,655
Just somebody should
at least tripped over him.
1385
01:10:26,689 --> 01:10:28,457
The amount of people
we've had out
1386
01:10:28,490 --> 01:10:30,626
and we flew
drones in the canyon.
1387
01:10:30,659 --> 01:10:33,929
Well, three of the canyons,
we flew drones in them.
1388
01:10:33,963 --> 01:10:35,764
DAVID:
Did you have any other
kind of air support?
1389
01:10:35,798 --> 01:10:37,399
BRYCE:
We did.
We had Civil Air.
1390
01:10:37,433 --> 01:10:39,201
The last fall
we had Civil Air in
1391
01:10:39,234 --> 01:10:41,604
and they flew
over forest for a couple days.
1392
01:10:41,637 --> 01:10:44,406
Was there any evidence
anywhere of animal predation?
1393
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:46,675
You know what I saw?
1394
01:10:47,209 --> 01:10:48,577
We tracked one bear
1395
01:10:48,611 --> 01:10:51,847
to see what he was,
where he was gonna go.
1396
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:55,985
But the only other thing
I noticed is we never had
birds during that search.
1397
01:10:56,018 --> 01:10:58,587
DAVID:
And birds are
an indicator of?
BRYCE:
A body.
1398
01:10:59,622 --> 01:11:01,357
You can kind of
hone in on to it.
1399
01:11:01,390 --> 01:11:02,291
-BRYCE:
Yeah.
-By the birds.
1400
01:11:02,324 --> 01:11:04,059
BRYCE:
Yeah,
and I mean, I run dogs.
1401
01:11:04,093 --> 01:11:06,195
I'm a firm believer in dogs,
but at the same time,
1402
01:11:06,228 --> 01:11:07,663
if the birds already
have eyes on him,
1403
01:11:07,696 --> 01:11:09,031
that makes it a lot easier.
1404
01:11:09,665 --> 01:11:11,500
And how odd was this search?
1405
01:11:13,202 --> 01:11:14,870
Very. To not...
1406
01:11:15,704 --> 01:11:17,740
Most people
have kind of a pattern.
1407
01:11:17,773 --> 01:11:21,810
I mean, if you're out hunting
and you see an elk,
1408
01:11:21,844 --> 01:11:24,346
you know, run across the road,
you're probably gonna go
1409
01:11:24,380 --> 01:11:25,781
find a spot
to actually park,
1410
01:11:25,814 --> 01:11:28,017
not just pull to the edge
of the road and jump out.
1411
01:11:28,050 --> 01:11:31,053
How difficult would it be
for someone to be lost in
there?
1412
01:11:33,489 --> 01:11:35,858
If you really wanted out,
everything around here,
1413
01:11:35,891 --> 01:11:38,027
you just walk downhill
until you find a road.
1414
01:11:38,060 --> 01:11:39,928
DAVID:
And you'll
eventually hit a road?
BRYCE:
Eventually.
1415
01:11:39,962 --> 01:11:41,730
You might have
to cross private property.
1416
01:11:41,764 --> 01:11:43,699
But if you're worried
about dying
in the middle of it,
1417
01:11:43,732 --> 01:11:44,833
who cares?
1418
01:11:44,867 --> 01:11:47,336
DAVID: So in talking
to the search and rescue
people,
1419
01:11:48,037 --> 01:11:49,838
I asked them, I said so,
1420
01:11:49,872 --> 01:11:51,807
"Was there anything odd
about this?"
1421
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,276
-"The whole thing was odd."
-Yeah.
1422
01:11:54,310 --> 01:11:57,446
-So they said that the canines
didn't pick up a scent.
-No.
1423
01:11:58,514 --> 01:12:00,516
They didn't see any tracks.
1424
01:12:00,549 --> 01:12:02,951
-They never recovered
any of his property.
-Mm-mm.
1425
01:12:04,186 --> 01:12:05,421
The weather
changed the next day,
1426
01:12:05,454 --> 01:12:07,656
and if Mark knew
the weather was changing,
1427
01:12:07,690 --> 01:12:09,591
-he wouldn't stay out there?
-No.
1428
01:12:10,526 --> 01:12:13,696
At what point
did you tell yourself,
1429
01:12:15,364 --> 01:12:16,965
"Hey, Mark
may not be coming back"?
1430
01:12:19,401 --> 01:12:21,970
After they got done searching,
1431
01:12:22,004 --> 01:12:27,042
they just said,
"You know, it's,
it doesn't look good."
1432
01:12:27,076 --> 01:12:31,680
DAVID: A lot of people
said a lot of strange things
about this case,
1433
01:12:31,714 --> 01:12:35,617
and in your time
with Mark out there,
1434
01:12:35,651 --> 01:12:37,720
did you guys ever
experience anything weird?
1435
01:12:38,721 --> 01:12:41,023
-As far as--
-Anything weird?
1436
01:12:42,324 --> 01:12:46,361
He was out hunting deer
with a rifle,
1437
01:12:46,395 --> 01:12:49,164
and he swore
he saw a UFO out there.
1438
01:12:49,198 --> 01:12:52,367
He was coming
out from hunting,
1439
01:12:52,401 --> 01:12:55,738
and he's, just happened
to look up, and saw it,
1440
01:12:55,771 --> 01:12:58,607
like he said, it was
just like hovering,
following him,
1441
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,709
and it freaked him out.
1442
01:13:00,743 --> 01:13:04,146
And he tried to look at it
through his binoculars,
1443
01:13:04,179 --> 01:13:05,514
but it was getting dark.
1444
01:13:06,482 --> 01:13:09,551
And it... So he,
it scared him.
1445
01:13:09,585 --> 01:13:11,353
What it looked like to him?
1446
01:13:11,386 --> 01:13:13,856
He said
it was just like a black...
1447
01:13:13,889 --> 01:13:16,725
I believe it was just black,
it was just hovering.
1448
01:13:17,526 --> 01:13:19,094
-And it scared him?
-Yeah.
1449
01:13:19,128 --> 01:13:21,697
Because it was like
it was following him out.
1450
01:13:22,364 --> 01:13:23,599
Another odd question.
1451
01:13:24,199 --> 01:13:25,601
Did Mark have a vasectomy?
1452
01:13:26,335 --> 01:13:28,036
A vasectomy? No.
1453
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:29,638
DAVID: He didn't.
1454
01:13:29,671 --> 01:13:31,673
Did he say how long
he saw this thing?
1455
01:13:33,408 --> 01:13:35,377
He said
it was just following him,
1456
01:13:35,410 --> 01:13:38,013
but minutes,
like, disappeared.
1457
01:13:38,046 --> 01:13:40,048
What did you think
when you heard that?
1458
01:13:40,082 --> 01:13:43,085
Kind of freaked me out
because he was freaked out.
1459
01:13:43,118 --> 01:13:45,921
-DAVID: And he was
a pretty calm guy?
-Mm-hmm.
1460
01:13:45,954 --> 01:13:48,423
And would he
be the kind of person
ever make up stories like
that?
1461
01:13:48,457 --> 01:13:49,758
No.
1462
01:13:49,792 --> 01:13:53,595
-So when you heard that from
him believability a 100%?
-Mm-hmm.
1463
01:13:54,663 --> 01:13:56,465
That's crossed my mind, too.
1464
01:13:56,498 --> 01:13:58,901
After he told me that story,
1465
01:13:58,934 --> 01:14:01,837
maybe there was
something out there.
1466
01:14:01,870 --> 01:14:04,640
-So how many years
were you guys together, 13?
-Thirteen.
1467
01:14:05,774 --> 01:14:08,377
And when he disappeared,
1468
01:14:08,410 --> 01:14:11,647
how would you
describe your relationship
that previous week?
1469
01:14:12,381 --> 01:14:14,283
Um, normal.
1470
01:14:14,316 --> 01:14:15,484
-DAVID: Normal?
-Yeah.
1471
01:14:15,517 --> 01:14:17,052
And how did Mark
get along with your kids?
1472
01:14:18,253 --> 01:14:19,421
Fine.
1473
01:14:19,454 --> 01:14:20,956
How did Marley take this?
1474
01:14:20,989 --> 01:14:25,227
Oh, she's...
having a rough time.
1475
01:14:29,331 --> 01:14:31,800
And when you sit
and you talk to Marley about
it,
1476
01:14:31,834 --> 01:14:33,535
what do you guys talk about?
1477
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,510
She's just sad
that he's not here anymore.
1478
01:14:43,178 --> 01:14:45,147
Yeah, she took it hard,
1479
01:14:45,180 --> 01:14:46,615
and finally...
1480
01:14:47,749 --> 01:14:50,552
she just kept asking me
after he left,
1481
01:14:51,587 --> 01:14:53,021
if he was coming back?
1482
01:14:55,123 --> 01:14:57,526
It's hard for me
to talk to her about it.
1483
01:15:02,965 --> 01:15:04,633
So the million
dollar question,
1484
01:15:04,666 --> 01:15:06,168
what happened
to Mark Strittmater?
1485
01:15:07,703 --> 01:15:09,204
That same question
can be applied
1486
01:15:09,238 --> 01:15:12,241
to the thousands
of other cases
I've investigated,
1487
01:15:13,508 --> 01:15:15,544
that follow
the same profile points,
1488
01:15:16,211 --> 01:15:17,279
we've discussed here.
1489
01:15:20,749 --> 01:15:22,317
Families don't have answers.
1490
01:15:23,285 --> 01:15:25,120
We move on to the next case,
1491
01:15:26,588 --> 01:15:29,191
and it's something
that follows me every day.
1492
01:15:31,460 --> 01:15:34,930
I have great empathy
for the families
that are left behind.
1493
01:15:41,870 --> 01:15:43,238
I've always been
of the opinion
1494
01:15:43,272 --> 01:15:47,643
that there aren't
such a thing as coincidences.
1495
01:15:47,676 --> 01:15:50,679
Just east of where
Carl disappeared,
1496
01:15:50,712 --> 01:15:53,081
there was another man,
named Gustafson,
1497
01:15:53,115 --> 01:15:57,119
and he was from Minnesota,
another elk hunter,
1498
01:15:57,152 --> 01:15:59,888
and he also disappeared
and was never found.
1499
01:15:59,922 --> 01:16:02,124
Now he was older.
He was in his 70s,
1500
01:16:02,157 --> 01:16:04,293
also in Medicine Bow.
1501
01:16:04,326 --> 01:16:08,964
But those, those three cases
were in geographical proximity
to one another.
1502
01:16:12,167 --> 01:16:14,303
Well, we're in the Medicine
Bow National Forest,
1503
01:16:14,336 --> 01:16:17,072
about 20 miles due east
1504
01:16:17,105 --> 01:16:20,542
of where the Higdon
and Strittmater case happened.
1505
01:16:20,575 --> 01:16:22,744
Same forest,
different location,
1506
01:16:22,778 --> 01:16:27,249
right above 8,000,
9,000 feet high up.
1507
01:16:27,282 --> 01:16:31,453
And this is the location
that Charles Gustafson
1508
01:16:31,486 --> 01:16:36,191
a 72-year-old man
from Minnesota,
came out with his family.
1509
01:16:36,224 --> 01:16:41,830
And on October 11th in 2006,
split up from his family,
1510
01:16:41,863 --> 01:16:43,765
and they decided
to hunt different areas.
1511
01:16:44,533 --> 01:16:46,668
Gustafson went
off for the day.
1512
01:16:46,702 --> 01:16:48,704
He didn't come
back that night.
1513
01:16:48,737 --> 01:16:51,006
His family members
got concerned.
1514
01:16:51,039 --> 01:16:54,242
He was carrying
a Trailside GPS.
1515
01:16:54,276 --> 01:16:55,644
He had a compass.
1516
01:16:55,677 --> 01:16:57,212
He had food. He had water.
1517
01:16:57,245 --> 01:16:59,614
The interesting part
about this gentleman
1518
01:16:59,648 --> 01:17:02,784
is he had survival training
in the military.
1519
01:17:03,485 --> 01:17:04,920
And so he knew how to,
1520
01:17:04,953 --> 01:17:07,122
how to live out here
in the wilderness.
1521
01:17:07,155 --> 01:17:10,892
To think that he got out here
and he got lost,
1522
01:17:10,926 --> 01:17:12,894
kind of difficult
to understand.
1523
01:17:15,764 --> 01:17:17,366
My name is Jerry Colson.
1524
01:17:17,399 --> 01:17:21,036
I'm the retired sheriff
of Carbon County, Wyoming.
1525
01:17:21,069 --> 01:17:24,639
And in 2006,
when Charles Gustafson was
here
1526
01:17:24,673 --> 01:17:27,776
elk hunting
in October of that year,
he went missing.
1527
01:17:27,809 --> 01:17:29,945
I was a sheriff at that time.
1528
01:17:29,978 --> 01:17:32,347
So in the articles, it said
that he was camped with,
1529
01:17:32,381 --> 01:17:34,683
I think a nephew
and some other relatives,
1530
01:17:34,716 --> 01:17:39,721
-near Forest Road 111 and 129,
is that kind of ring, right?
-Correct.
1531
01:17:39,755 --> 01:17:41,123
DAVID:
I had also heard
that he had been
1532
01:17:41,156 --> 01:17:42,791
to this area
many times in the past?
1533
01:17:42,824 --> 01:17:44,126
Yeah, according
to family members,
1534
01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:46,428
they hunt this area
pretty regular.
1535
01:17:46,461 --> 01:17:49,865
And what kind of resources
would you pull
for something like this?
1536
01:17:49,898 --> 01:17:52,534
Four-wheel drive
and searchers on foot,
1537
01:17:52,567 --> 01:17:55,137
requested a helicopter
out of Warren Air Force Base
1538
01:17:55,170 --> 01:17:57,472
in Cheyenne,
military helicopter.
1539
01:17:57,506 --> 01:17:59,174
And we would
use Civil Air Patrol.
1540
01:17:59,207 --> 01:18:01,410
So we go, you
know, air search.
1541
01:18:01,443 --> 01:18:05,347
And we eventually
had searchers
on horseback too.
1542
01:18:05,380 --> 01:18:08,050
Brought in some canines, um,
1543
01:18:08,083 --> 01:18:09,985
both cadaver and search dogs.
1544
01:18:10,018 --> 01:18:11,820
As the time went on,
we went with cadaver.
1545
01:18:11,853 --> 01:18:14,723
Did any dog
pick up a scent trail?
1546
01:18:14,756 --> 01:18:17,392
No, nothing
that led to Mr. Gustafson.
1547
01:18:17,426 --> 01:18:20,595
-You searched for what?
A week?
-About six days.
1548
01:18:20,629 --> 01:18:22,064
I had to call it off
about the sixth day
1549
01:18:22,097 --> 01:18:22,931
because of the weather
coming in.
1550
01:18:22,964 --> 01:18:24,633
The helicopters
were there until
1551
01:18:24,666 --> 01:18:26,034
it started snowing
and they had to go.
1552
01:18:26,068 --> 01:18:28,637
The unusual nature
of being lost in the woods
1553
01:18:28,670 --> 01:18:31,273
and not found,
is that unusual?
1554
01:18:31,306 --> 01:18:33,875
It's not unusual for people
to become lost in the woods.
1555
01:18:33,909 --> 01:18:36,111
It is unusual
and not commonplace
1556
01:18:36,144 --> 01:18:38,613
for us not to find
within a day or two.
1557
01:18:38,647 --> 01:18:44,052
People who watch this will
say, "Oh, you know, maybe this
was a case of animal
predation."
1558
01:18:44,086 --> 01:18:45,987
What would you say to that?
1559
01:18:46,021 --> 01:18:47,355
I mean, we have bears.
1560
01:18:47,389 --> 01:18:49,324
I can tell you
the whole time I was sheriff
1561
01:18:49,357 --> 01:18:52,060
and I worked at sheriff's
office for 39 years,
1562
01:18:52,094 --> 01:18:55,163
I never remember anybody
being attacked by a bear.
1563
01:18:55,197 --> 01:18:59,568
How long was it before anybody
found anything related to him?
1564
01:18:59,601 --> 01:19:00,435
There were some fishermen
1565
01:19:00,469 --> 01:19:03,171
down there
in Rock Creek canyon,
1566
01:19:03,205 --> 01:19:04,473
and they were
just walking along,
1567
01:19:04,506 --> 01:19:06,041
with everyone else saying,
"Look over there,"
1568
01:19:06,074 --> 01:19:08,443
and there's this rifle
sitting in the fork of a tree,
1569
01:19:08,477 --> 01:19:11,346
leaning in the fork
of a tree right by the creek.
1570
01:19:11,379 --> 01:19:12,814
So they picked it up
and brought it out
1571
01:19:12,848 --> 01:19:14,349
and turned it over
and we got it
1572
01:19:14,382 --> 01:19:16,751
and confirmed to the family
it was his rifle.
1573
01:19:16,785 --> 01:19:19,154
Was anything else found
in that immediate area?
1574
01:19:19,187 --> 01:19:20,055
Myself and some
other searchers,
1575
01:19:20,088 --> 01:19:22,023
we went down
to the right of that area
1576
01:19:22,057 --> 01:19:23,758
where everything was found.
1577
01:19:23,792 --> 01:19:28,363
I actually sat down on the
side of the hill there by the
creek.
1578
01:19:28,396 --> 01:19:29,965
I looked over
at about ten-foot from me,
1579
01:19:29,998 --> 01:19:31,733
here's this fanny pack.
1580
01:19:31,766 --> 01:19:33,235
It had a water bottle,
I remember that.
1581
01:19:33,268 --> 01:19:35,937
So it turned out
to be Charlie's fanny pack.
1582
01:19:35,971 --> 01:19:37,939
So was any
of his clothing or shoes
1583
01:19:37,973 --> 01:19:39,374
-or any of that found?
-Never. Nothing.
1584
01:19:39,407 --> 01:19:42,410
Other than
his fanny pack and rifle.
That's all that's been found.
1585
01:19:44,379 --> 01:19:51,219
So we have
Charles' disappearance
in northern Medicine Bow.
1586
01:19:51,253 --> 01:19:54,189
We have
the Strittmater disappearance,
1587
01:19:54,222 --> 01:19:57,225
just southwest of where
Charles disappeared.
1588
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,463
We also have
the Higdon disappearance.
1589
01:20:01,496 --> 01:20:06,268
On the northwest sector
of Cheyenne
is Warren Air Force Base.
1590
01:20:06,301 --> 01:20:09,905
And this is the location
that did the air support
1591
01:20:09,938 --> 01:20:13,108
on the disappearances
we marked here.
1592
01:20:13,141 --> 01:20:16,077
Surprisingly,
I found some documents
1593
01:20:16,711 --> 01:20:20,348
about UFOs being observed
1594
01:20:20,382 --> 01:20:24,352
by on-duty
Air Force personnel at Warren.
1595
01:20:28,690 --> 01:20:31,026
All three men
have German heritage.
1596
01:20:31,059 --> 01:20:33,428
All three men, elk hunters.
1597
01:20:33,461 --> 01:20:37,399
I had to ask myself,
are there other hunters
1598
01:20:37,432 --> 01:20:41,436
missing from this region
that matched that profile?
1599
01:20:41,469 --> 01:20:45,006
Are there any hunters
that have gone
missing in recent times,
1600
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:48,043
that kind of match the profile
of these other guys?
1601
01:20:48,076 --> 01:20:50,245
Yeah, a guy named Terry Meador
1602
01:20:50,278 --> 01:20:52,214
who was a teacher
here in Rock Springs,
1603
01:20:52,247 --> 01:20:54,683
I actually knew him,
and he was a teacher
1604
01:20:54,716 --> 01:20:56,051
when I was in high school.
1605
01:20:56,084 --> 01:20:57,686
And he came up missing
1606
01:20:57,719 --> 01:21:00,222
when he had gone out
to go hunting.
1607
01:21:00,255 --> 01:21:01,957
DAVID: And the area
that he was in,
1608
01:21:01,990 --> 01:21:03,992
can you kind of
explain it to us?
1609
01:21:04,025 --> 01:21:06,561
Well, it's very typical
of southwest Wyoming.
1610
01:21:06,595 --> 01:21:09,364
It's sagebrush, prairie.
1611
01:21:09,397 --> 01:21:13,301
Uh, it's what we call
high desert, isolated.
1612
01:21:13,335 --> 01:21:15,470
-DAVID:
Not a lot of cover?
-No.
1613
01:21:15,503 --> 01:21:17,239
So where could he go?
1614
01:21:17,272 --> 01:21:19,407
He'd have to
crawl into a hole.
1615
01:21:19,441 --> 01:21:21,309
-DAVID:
And there are not
a lot of holes there?
-No.
1616
01:21:21,343 --> 01:21:24,412
-Not a lot of caves.
-I mean, it's open desert.
1617
01:21:24,446 --> 01:21:27,716
Anything out there
in the middle of the desert
that could hurt him?
1618
01:21:27,749 --> 01:21:30,785
On occasion
we've had a wolf or two.
1619
01:21:30,819 --> 01:21:35,257
I can't think of
any large predatory animals
that would be able to,
1620
01:21:35,290 --> 01:21:38,326
you know, take a human being
and drag them off somewhere.
1621
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,195
What would be
your thinking on that?
1622
01:21:40,228 --> 01:21:41,429
I suppose we could say that
1623
01:21:41,463 --> 01:21:43,531
there's a possibility
he was abducted.
1624
01:21:43,565 --> 01:21:46,201
Uh, but
there's no evidence of that.
1625
01:21:46,234 --> 01:21:47,969
All we know
is that he was there
1626
01:21:48,003 --> 01:21:49,571
and then
he's not there anymore.
1627
01:21:49,604 --> 01:21:52,540
DAVID:
This is in the
middle-of-nowhere desert.
1628
01:21:52,574 --> 01:21:55,844
And his truck
was stuck in a ditch.
1629
01:21:55,877 --> 01:21:58,179
And they searched for a week
and they never found him.
1630
01:21:59,581 --> 01:22:04,452
Do you see any,
any convening of the facts,
1631
01:22:04,486 --> 01:22:08,290
any assimilation
that you could make
between all of these guys?
1632
01:22:08,323 --> 01:22:10,091
One of the big similarities,
of course is
1633
01:22:10,125 --> 01:22:11,960
that they're all by themselves
1634
01:22:11,993 --> 01:22:14,162
and they're all elk hunting.
1635
01:22:14,195 --> 01:22:15,830
With the exception
of Mr. Meador,
1636
01:22:15,864 --> 01:22:17,465
they're all about
the same age.
1637
01:22:17,499 --> 01:22:22,270
In your time as monitoring
MUFON activity in Wyoming,
1638
01:22:22,304 --> 01:22:25,006
have you ever heard
of anything similar to this?
1639
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:27,309
We have the cases
involving Pat McGuire,
1640
01:22:27,342 --> 01:22:32,747
who owned a ranch over
in the eastern part of
Wyoming,
1641
01:22:32,781 --> 01:22:38,453
and he had
a series of incidents I guess
you could say involving UFOs
1642
01:22:38,486 --> 01:22:41,056
and I was fortunate enough
to be able to sit in
1643
01:22:41,089 --> 01:22:44,125
on one of the regressive
hypnosis sessions.
1644
01:22:44,159 --> 01:22:47,696
And he had some experiences.
1645
01:22:47,729 --> 01:22:49,597
And he was allegedly told
1646
01:22:49,631 --> 01:22:54,569
by a race of alien beings
that he was to build a well,
1647
01:22:54,602 --> 01:22:59,908
to dig a well on this location
in or near Wheatland, Wyoming.
1648
01:22:59,941 --> 01:23:01,609
He took that very seriously.
1649
01:23:01,643 --> 01:23:04,946
He actually went out
and bought himself a tank
1650
01:23:04,979 --> 01:23:06,414
and he got the motor off it
1651
01:23:06,448 --> 01:23:08,917
to pump the water
out of this well.
1652
01:23:08,950 --> 01:23:12,387
But he had geologists,
and all these other folks
tell him that he was crazy
1653
01:23:12,420 --> 01:23:15,023
for wanting to put the well
where he wanted to put it,
1654
01:23:15,056 --> 01:23:17,792
because it was
just a solid slab of rock.
1655
01:23:17,826 --> 01:23:20,061
And there was no way
he was ever
gonna get any water.
1656
01:23:20,095 --> 01:23:22,397
But he insisted
that the aliens
1657
01:23:22,430 --> 01:23:24,132
had told him
that there was water there
1658
01:23:24,165 --> 01:23:26,167
and by God,
he was gonna dig that well.
1659
01:23:26,201 --> 01:23:27,969
-And he did.
-Boy.
1660
01:23:28,002 --> 01:23:31,806
DAVID:
And you just said
something that is huge to me.
1661
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:35,577
So in the United States,
we have 64 geographical
clusters
1662
01:23:35,610 --> 01:23:38,313
of missing people
that fit our profile points.
1663
01:23:38,947 --> 01:23:40,515
As unusual as it sounds,
1664
01:23:40,548 --> 01:23:43,518
right down the middle
of the United States,
1665
01:23:43,551 --> 01:23:47,155
there is an area where
there are no disappearances.
1666
01:23:47,188 --> 01:23:52,093
Several months ago,
I got an email from somebody
who worked for the government.
1667
01:23:53,361 --> 01:23:56,731
And he said,
"Dave, that area of the U.S.
1668
01:23:56,765 --> 01:24:00,668
"corresponds to a area,
1669
01:24:00,702 --> 01:24:04,439
"which has been described
by the U.S. Geological Survey,
1670
01:24:04,472 --> 01:24:08,276
"as an underground water area.
1671
01:24:08,309 --> 01:24:10,979
"It's called
the Ogallala Aquifer."
1672
01:24:11,012 --> 01:24:16,418
He says, "You should see
if it corresponds
with your profile now."
1673
01:24:16,451 --> 01:24:21,756
What we did is we overlay that
on top of our cluster map.
1674
01:24:23,124 --> 01:24:26,561
It's almost a near match,
which is interesting.
1675
01:24:27,662 --> 01:24:32,233
Because of my background
with MUFON and UFOs,
1676
01:24:32,267 --> 01:24:36,638
I also know about
underwater submerged objects.
1677
01:24:38,573 --> 01:24:41,810
And those are
essentially just UFOs
that have gone to water.
1678
01:24:43,745 --> 01:24:45,647
And if there was a way
1679
01:24:46,648 --> 01:24:50,285
to keep yourself hidden,
1680
01:24:50,318 --> 01:24:53,655
yet make yourself
apparent at certain times,
1681
01:24:53,688 --> 01:24:59,360
it would be by using the
aquifer in going out through
Wyoming.
1682
01:24:59,394 --> 01:25:02,664
And when you think about
the McGuire incident,
1683
01:25:02,697 --> 01:25:05,467
and the ability of the UFOs
to go through the aquifer
1684
01:25:05,500 --> 01:25:08,269
and up out of his well
if they watered
1685
01:25:08,303 --> 01:25:11,339
and then their proximity
in southwest Wyoming
1686
01:25:11,372 --> 01:25:13,675
to all the incidents
we've talked about,
1687
01:25:14,843 --> 01:25:18,079
again it's another
one of those coincidence
1688
01:25:18,112 --> 01:25:19,347
that you can't ignore.
1689
01:25:22,684 --> 01:25:25,253
The Ogallala Aquifer,
that covers
1690
01:25:25,286 --> 01:25:28,957
almost the exact area
where nobody is missing!
1691
01:25:28,990 --> 01:25:31,459
And I put it
in the back of my mind.
I didn't think much about it.
1692
01:25:31,493 --> 01:25:35,697
But, damn, you saying
that this person digs a well
1693
01:25:35,730 --> 01:25:38,032
and it's an offshoot
from the Ogallala
1694
01:25:38,066 --> 01:25:39,367
and the aliens
told him to do it.
1695
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:40,935
-Yeah.
-That's weird.
1696
01:25:40,969 --> 01:25:43,104
Now what's really weird
is they tell him to do it
1697
01:25:43,137 --> 01:25:45,507
and all the geologists
and all those guys
1698
01:25:45,540 --> 01:25:47,208
tell him
that there's nothing there.
1699
01:25:47,242 --> 01:25:49,344
He's crazy for doing,
and he digs the well anyway
1700
01:25:49,377 --> 01:25:52,046
and taps in and
finds the water.
1701
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,549
So the crazy guy was right.
1702
01:25:54,582 --> 01:25:57,452
Now, did the aliens
tell him to dig the well?
1703
01:25:57,485 --> 01:25:59,220
I don't know, Pat said...
1704
01:25:59,254 --> 01:26:02,290
He certainly believe
that the aliens
told him to dig the well.
1705
01:26:02,323 --> 01:26:06,361
The reason
for the digging of the well
1706
01:26:06,394 --> 01:26:09,364
was so that in the event
1707
01:26:09,397 --> 01:26:12,567
that there was
a a global cataclysm,
1708
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:16,538
that there would be
a fresh source of water
for the inhabitants
1709
01:26:16,571 --> 01:26:19,507
of that location
when it took place.
1710
01:26:19,541 --> 01:26:21,676
DAVID:
Let's put all of this
into perspective.
1711
01:26:21,709 --> 01:26:24,379
If we plot the locations
of the Wyoming cluster
1712
01:26:24,412 --> 01:26:25,980
of missing hunters on a map,
1713
01:26:27,382 --> 01:26:29,083
this coincides with the spread
1714
01:26:29,117 --> 01:26:32,353
of chronic wasting disease
throughout southeast Wyoming.
1715
01:26:33,454 --> 01:26:35,623
Chronic wasting disease
is decimating
1716
01:26:35,657 --> 01:26:38,826
the elk and deer populations
in this region.
1717
01:26:38,860 --> 01:26:41,496
All of the missing
and abducted men
were elk hunters,
1718
01:26:41,529 --> 01:26:43,932
and all of them
disappeared in close proximity
1719
01:26:43,965 --> 01:26:47,702
to Warren Air Force Base,
where numerous UFO sightings
1720
01:26:47,735 --> 01:26:51,606
have incredibly documented
by government officials.
1721
01:26:51,639 --> 01:26:55,410
We know from the Higdon
and the elk abduction cases
1722
01:26:55,443 --> 01:26:57,312
that these beings,
whoever they are,
1723
01:26:57,345 --> 01:26:59,647
are interested
in North American elk.
1724
01:26:59,681 --> 01:27:02,016
We can hypothesize
that perhaps these beings
1725
01:27:02,050 --> 01:27:04,118
are monitoring
our elk population
1726
01:27:04,152 --> 01:27:09,457
for what is possibly
the worst wildlife disaster
in North America.
1727
01:27:09,490 --> 01:27:13,027
Just northeast of this cluster
is Pat McGuire's ranch,
1728
01:27:13,061 --> 01:27:16,698
where the beings told him
to dig a well for water,
1729
01:27:16,731 --> 01:27:20,635
that miraculously was fed
by the Ogallala Aquifer.
1730
01:27:20,668 --> 01:27:23,771
There are no
clusters of missing
around this property.
1731
01:27:23,805 --> 01:27:25,773
Nor are there
clusters of missing
1732
01:27:25,807 --> 01:27:27,875
in the main body
of the aquifer.
1733
01:27:29,110 --> 01:27:32,614
All the victims
in this incident
were elk hunting.
1734
01:27:33,314 --> 01:27:34,949
Each was alone.
1735
01:27:34,983 --> 01:27:39,187
Two of the hunters in Wyoming
observed a UFO.
1736
01:27:39,220 --> 01:27:41,656
Canines could never
pick up a scent.
1737
01:27:41,689 --> 01:27:45,593
A UFO in Washington
was observed taking an elk.
1738
01:27:45,627 --> 01:27:49,664
Carl Higdon observed elk
on a UFO.
1739
01:27:50,531 --> 01:27:52,967
Only one victim
was ever found.
1740
01:27:53,001 --> 01:27:55,703
That was Carl Higdon
who believed he was returned
1741
01:27:55,737 --> 01:27:57,672
because he had a vasectomy.
1742
01:27:58,706 --> 01:28:01,843
Let's not forget
the first missing person case.
1743
01:28:01,876 --> 01:28:05,146
Ray Salmen from Harrison Lake,
British Columbia.
1744
01:28:05,179 --> 01:28:06,648
Ray and his wife had seen UFOs
1745
01:28:06,681 --> 01:28:08,750
in the British Columbia forest
in the past.
1746
01:28:09,350 --> 01:28:10,752
Ray was a hunter.
1747
01:28:10,785 --> 01:28:12,286
He was German.
1748
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,223
He was camped
adjacent to a lake.
1749
01:28:15,256 --> 01:28:17,392
Canines never
picked up a scent.
1750
01:28:17,425 --> 01:28:20,428
His clothes and rifle
were found on a beach.
1751
01:28:20,461 --> 01:28:22,930
He disappeared,
was never found.
1752
01:28:22,964 --> 01:28:27,635
It's another incident
that is an exact match
to the Wyoming cases.
1753
01:28:27,669 --> 01:28:34,142
As incredible as it sounds,
you have to start wondering
what is happening here.
1754
01:28:34,175 --> 01:28:35,543
There's nowhere to turn
1755
01:28:35,576 --> 01:28:38,513
and I don't think
we left many stones unturned.
1756
01:28:38,546 --> 01:28:42,517
DAVID:
Frustration and fear
turns to anger,
anger to loss of hope.
1757
01:28:42,550 --> 01:28:45,553
As an investigator,
you do your due diligence.
1758
01:28:45,586 --> 01:28:48,356
If you can't provide closure
in a traditional sense,
1759
01:28:48,389 --> 01:28:49,957
and the incredible
or paranormal
1760
01:28:49,991 --> 01:28:52,360
may be tied
to the disappearance,
1761
01:28:52,393 --> 01:28:53,995
how do you explain
that to a grieving family
1762
01:28:54,028 --> 01:28:56,097
that we might be
dealing with something
1763
01:28:56,130 --> 01:28:59,801
that is just beyond
the normal
and the extreme
1764
01:28:59,834 --> 01:29:02,036
that leads
to unknown consequences?
1765
01:29:03,604 --> 01:29:06,140
It puts me
in a difficult situation.
1766
01:29:06,174 --> 01:29:08,109
Puts you
in a difficult situation.
1767
01:29:08,142 --> 01:29:11,612
When you have families
that are missing a loved one,
1768
01:29:11,646 --> 01:29:14,549
-I can't go tell them this.
-Exactly. Exactly.
1769
01:29:14,582 --> 01:29:16,651
-Who's gonna believe me?
-Yeah.
1770
01:29:16,684 --> 01:29:22,190
Um, yeah, you can't
because it's... it's
unprovable.
1771
01:29:22,223 --> 01:29:25,660
It's a purely
in a physical world,
1772
01:29:25,693 --> 01:29:28,463
it's just not provable.
1773
01:29:28,496 --> 01:29:29,997
DAVID:
Yet eyewitnesses' reports
1774
01:29:30,031 --> 01:29:32,066
of unexplained events
in the skies
1775
01:29:32,100 --> 01:29:34,001
are increasing exponentially.
1776
01:29:34,035 --> 01:29:36,804
DAVID:
How many calls
do you think you get a year?
1777
01:29:36,838 --> 01:29:42,810
Uh, I would say between
30 and 100 per day, typically.
1778
01:29:42,844 --> 01:29:45,780
So saying rough around figures
1779
01:29:45,813 --> 01:29:49,484
somewhere between
20,000 and 30,000 calls a
year.
1780
01:29:49,517 --> 01:29:50,952
DAVID:
And the conviction
and credibility
1781
01:29:50,985 --> 01:29:52,587
of those
who have witnessed them
1782
01:29:52,620 --> 01:29:55,056
is unnerving, to
say the least.
1783
01:29:55,089 --> 01:29:58,392
Believe it or not,
I just know what I saw.
1784
01:29:58,426 --> 01:30:01,763
A lot of truths
are really experiential.
1785
01:30:01,796 --> 01:30:04,332
DAVID:
Elk hunters
of German heritage
are being taken
1786
01:30:04,365 --> 01:30:07,401
in specific regions
in North America.
1787
01:30:07,435 --> 01:30:10,738
Witnesses corroborate
bizarre occurrences in the
sky,
1788
01:30:10,772 --> 01:30:13,508
directly related
to these incidents.
1789
01:30:13,541 --> 01:30:17,078
What's left are the words
of those who have lost so much
1790
01:30:17,111 --> 01:30:19,614
and those who returned
to share their stories.
145365
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