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Sullivan, a woman who practices
a radical new kind of sex therapy.
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She is a sex surrogate.
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Her clients are men unable to have
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successful sexual relationships.
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Her job is to help them learn how to love.
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What follows is the story of two clients
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who allowed their entire therapy to be filmed.
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Maureen saw each man once a week for four months.
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Supervised by a therapist, she guided them
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through a series of sexual exercises
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that became progressively more intimate.
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For many viewers, the subject of sex surrogates
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will raise moral and ethical issues.
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Instead of debating these issues,
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we will focus on the experiences of the people
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involved, for this film is about more
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than sex surrogate therapy.
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It is about people trying to understand their most
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intimate and profound emotion...
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Love.
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On January 18, 1983, Maureen was contacted by Warren Jason,
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a psychotherapist, about a young client
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who had almost no sexual experience with women.
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The client was extremely fearful in the presence of a woman,
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and wanted to overcome that fear.
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He had been through years of individual and group therapy,
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with little success.
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Mr. Jason recommended he work with a sex surrogate.
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One week later, he went to Maureen's home
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in Los Angeles, California, for his first session.
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Would you rather be called Christopher or Chris?
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Kipper, actually.
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Kipper?
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I guess I would like you to tell me a little bit about yourself.
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Warren told me a fair amount last night on the phone,
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but I'd rather hear it from you.
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And then I'll talk about myself or any questions
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you have about me.
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Well, I'm new to LA.
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I just moved here in October to start school at UCLA.
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And because I don't initiate conversations,
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I make friends really slowly.
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I still find it very hard to, like, if there's a woman I find
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attractive, like in my classes or in any kind of situation,
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to initiate something.
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I'm always hoping that...
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You know, that a woman will initiate things herself.
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MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Well, touching is one, probably the best way
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that I know of communicating to someone,
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particularly tender feelings and sexual feelings,
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intimate feelings.
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KIPPER: And that's by far the thing
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I have the most anxiety about.
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Yeah.
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And simple touching is what almost
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everybody starts out with.
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You just don't take off your clothes and jump on top of her.
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KIPPER: Yeah, I know that. So I think, OK.
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You know, like, I'm sitting next to this woman
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who is interested in me.
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And we're at a movie theater.
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And it's pretty obvious that she wants me to initiate something.
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So all I have to do is sort of take her hand or something.
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MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Then you touch it.
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And I can't do it.
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MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Let me take your hand.
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From the beginning, with sex therapy,
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we teach our clients to touch for their own pleasure.
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See, I'm sitting here right now, involved
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in playing with the hair on your arm and touching your shirt,
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because I wanted to see if it was kind of flannel or cotton
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or whatever. It's not going to turn you on...
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Absolutely not.
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I'm touching you because it feels good to me.
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The exercise is called take pleasure,
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and you do it first, because it gives you a chance to struggle.
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You're going to learn more that way.
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You're a real bright guy.
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And you... I think you can tackle a challenge.
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You don't think you can, in this arena.
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But Jesus Christ.
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If you skipped high school, you're no dummy.
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OK.
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I want you to take pleasure in any way
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that feels comfortable to you, using my body.
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I'll give you the first hint of something you can do
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is to take my hand and stroke it for your own pleasure.
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Close your eyes and stroke my hand.
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Just feel my hand, a nice woman's hand.
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I sat there thinking, god, there's so much
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to teach this person or help this person with,
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or at least expose them to.
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I can't teach anybody anything.
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All I can do is share.
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There was so much to share with him, it's incredible.
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I think... I think once he got past this super uptightness
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he's got, he would be a real civ.
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I can see him as being someone I'd really have fun with.
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But he's got... we'd have...
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It would take us a while to get there.
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NARRATOR: On January 27, 1983, Maureen
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was contacted by Michael Freeny, a psychotherapist,
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about a client who wanted to work with a surrogate.
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The client's 20-year marriage had broken up
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two years earlier, and he'd been able to have
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only one successful sexual experience since his divorce.
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Mr. Freeny arranged for Maureen to meet the client
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in his office later that week.
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MICHAEL FREENY: Hi, John. - I'm Maureen.
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MICHAEL FREENY: This is Maureen Sullivan.
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- Hi.
- Hi.
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MICHAEL FREENY: By way of introduction,
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I'll start it off first.
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John has essentially had two principal sexual partners
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in his life... his wife of 20 years, and after the divorce,
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he saw a woman named Susan for a few months.
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And they had sexual experiences on two occasions.
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And then both of those partners criticized
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him for not attending to their needs and being sexually...
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Essentially sexually inadequate, in terms of technique,
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performance... that is, rapid ejaculation...
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And for the size of your penis.
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I, right now, have...
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You know, I approach women and ask them out and so forth.
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And I've had very little success on that account.
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And but I had very little incentive within myself,
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because I'm afraid that were I to go
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any further other than just starting a relationship,
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I'm going to flop.
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And I don't even want to try it.
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MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.
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So I've got to...
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I've got to somehow overcome that.
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And I don't know what...
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What it's going to take.
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Some sessions with a surrogate would be very much in order.
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JOHN: I would be able to do that, perhaps.
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Because then we would have a situation
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where it's controlled.
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You wouldn't go into the situation
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being panicked by rejection.
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JOHN: Uh-huh.
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You would have somebody who's trained and very professional
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in her demeanor, and who's going to give
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you very accurate feedback.
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And then during the time that you're seeing her
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for those private sessions, you'll also be coming back
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to me, and we can discuss what occurred
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on a real immediate basis.
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MAUREEN: Any other questions?
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No.
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MAUREEN: I can't think of anything either.
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MICHAEL: I can't think of anything.
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MAUREEN: Ah. MICHAEL: Oh.
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MAUREEN: VD. - Uh-huh.
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MAUREEN: Have you talked about that with him?
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MICHAEL: Oh, no.
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MAUREEN: Oh, goody.
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I think I'll run through the whole... the whole story here.
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MICHAEL: Sure.
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I've had problems with vaginal infections
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for the last couple of years.
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And they've been... they've been a real burden on me.
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I finally got to a good specialist
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who said, well, I think all your clients should wear rubbers.
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- Oh, really. - Hold on.
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Listen to the story.
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NARRATOR: Since completion of this film,
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the International Professional Surrogate Association,
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responding to the AIDS epidemic, now
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recommends that safe sex be practiced
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at all times between surrogate and client,
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and that no exchange of bodily fluids occur.
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So what I decided is the most practical thing to do
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is that every one of my clients get checked.
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And if they have intercourse with someone else,
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either they use a rubber with the other person,
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or they use a rubber with me.
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So we keep the environment clean, so to speak.
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And with my personal contacts, I...
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I use a condom.
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I don't think it's fair to ask to go out and get checked,
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and then I have intercourse with somebody
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and bring something into our relationship,
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or relationships with my other clients.
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Isn't it within the realm of reality that...
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That you would establish a relationship
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that you would want to continue with someone
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that you met like this?
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Is there some reason why...
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Would I want to...
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Is there some reason why it absolutely must be concluded,
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and even if you happened to...
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Whatever "fall in love" means...
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Fall in love with someone that you
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were working with, would you...
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Do you prescribe and preclude that as a possibility?
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Well...
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I'm not speaking for myself. I'm just asking.
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I have... yeah, I feel like...
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I feel like I fall in love with some of my clients.
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And it's sometimes difficult for me to end.
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I get real attached to somebody.
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I was wondering about that.
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I mean, I would presume that you would.
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MAUREEN: Yeah.
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Um, I mean, you probably know this,
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but I think it needs to be said that our relationship will be
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over when the therapy is over.
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And we can talk about it anytime along the way.
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If you feel like you're falling in love, let's talk about it.
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Mm-hmm.
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MICHAEL: And you and I will talk about it.
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Yeah.
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OK.
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MAUREEN: And it's OK to fall in love.
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You just have to keep it in perspective.
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I think it's really...
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I think it's nice to fall in love,
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or at least have loving feelings.
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I don't want to make this a mechanical relationship.
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[chuckles]
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INTERVIEWER: Do you like being in love?
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Is it something you aim for?
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Mm-mm.
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I don't aim to be in love.
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I aim to be healthy and not needy and not...
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I mean, that's not saying that being in love is needy.
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But it certainly falls together with me.
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Often, when I fall in love, I get real clingy.
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I want to always be with that person
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and always do things together and never make decisions
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on my own and make him a priority as much as myself,
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and then I don't take care of other things.
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So I'm not real good at being in love.
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I have a lot of growing up to do.
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I'm not even close to getting married yet.
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INTERVIEWER: Do you think your work gets in the way of that?
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Uh-uh.
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INTERVIEWER: What do you think your work does for you?
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I think it helps me learn about relationships
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and be with...
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I think that's why I'm in it.
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I think I need so much to learn that I have
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to practice 10 times a week.
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[laughs]
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May I look into your eyes?
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Uh, yes.
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Thank you.
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I mean, not over yet.
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[laughs]
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But I have to, you know...
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It's really hard for me to keep looking at you.
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You don't have to look into my eyes.
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You just let me look into yours.
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[laughs] OK.
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Yeah.
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When it becomes uncomfortable, you just look away.
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This is for me to enjoy your eyes.
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OK.
261
00:12:20,011 --> 00:12:22,679
OK?
262
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:24,181
This is the toughest one.
263
00:12:24,182 --> 00:12:25,058
Yeah.
264
00:12:25,059 --> 00:12:27,561
[laughs]
265
00:12:28,811 --> 00:12:31,523
Now it's your turn.
266
00:12:31,524 --> 00:12:31,940
Let's see.
267
00:12:31,941 --> 00:12:34,275
I'll choose something that's not so hard at first.
268
00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:37,153
Uh, may I look at your hair.
269
00:12:38,364 --> 00:12:39,449
OK.
270
00:12:43,787 --> 00:12:45,579
Can I look at your lips?
271
00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:48,082
Yes.
272
00:12:48,083 --> 00:12:50,376
May I touch your upper arm?
273
00:12:50,377 --> 00:12:51,545
MAUREEN: Uh-huh.
274
00:12:51,546 --> 00:12:52,630
OK.
275
00:12:55,216 --> 00:12:58,803
MAUREEN: May I touch your forehead?
276
00:12:58,804 --> 00:12:59,387
Yeah.
277
00:12:59,388 --> 00:13:02,097
Thank you.
278
00:13:02,098 --> 00:13:03,057
May I touch your...
279
00:13:03,058 --> 00:13:06,435
What would you call it... your calves...
280
00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:08,853
The lower part of your leg?
281
00:13:08,854 --> 00:13:11,190
You want my jeans up or down?
282
00:13:11,191 --> 00:13:13,819
Well, I guess up.
283
00:13:13,820 --> 00:13:15,862
Although it's more embarrassing too.
284
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,872
A woman's legs feel a lot different than men's.
285
00:13:27,376 --> 00:13:31,046
I wish that was something that regularly happened to me.
286
00:13:35,384 --> 00:13:40,888
I'm still having a sense of missed opportunities that...
287
00:13:40,889 --> 00:13:41,890
25 years old.
288
00:13:41,891 --> 00:13:42,892
You know, I could have had...
289
00:13:42,893 --> 00:13:46,020
By this time, I could have had that a lot.
290
00:13:46,021 --> 00:13:48,898
Instead, I've hardly experienced it at all.
291
00:13:51,901 --> 00:13:55,864
Glad you're not one of my 40-year-old virgins.
292
00:13:55,865 --> 00:13:58,491
KIPPER: Yeah, that must be pretty grim.
293
00:13:58,492 --> 00:13:59,702
Yeah.
294
00:13:59,703 --> 00:14:01,580
Half a life has gone by.
295
00:14:04,666 --> 00:14:10,379
I felt more aware of the cameras and lights stuff than...
296
00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:11,505
Then I had the last sessions.
297
00:14:11,506 --> 00:14:16,927
But, um, you know, it's OK after a while, I just stop...
298
00:14:16,928 --> 00:14:18,472
Stop thinking about it that much.
299
00:14:18,473 --> 00:14:21,642
So it takes 10, 15 minutes to let go of it and then it just...
300
00:14:21,643 --> 00:14:22,185
Yeah.
301
00:14:22,186 --> 00:14:23,935
disappears for you.
302
00:14:23,936 --> 00:14:24,312
Yeah.
303
00:14:24,313 --> 00:14:27,732
But we're pretty much in the same setting we normally are.
304
00:14:27,733 --> 00:14:28,525
Mm-hmm.
305
00:14:28,525 --> 00:14:29,401
You know?
306
00:14:29,402 --> 00:14:30,443
Pretty much.
307
00:14:30,444 --> 00:14:31,570
Yeah.
308
00:14:33,530 --> 00:14:36,449
So you want to fill me in on what's going on?
309
00:14:36,450 --> 00:14:38,076
- Well, um... - I'm all excited.
310
00:14:38,077 --> 00:14:38,620
Yeah.
311
00:14:38,621 --> 00:14:43,499
Well, you know, Mo thought the session went very well.
312
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:46,335
I thought it went pretty well.
313
00:14:46,336 --> 00:14:47,295
Yeah.
314
00:14:47,296 --> 00:14:50,758
We talk about every part of the body that's visible...
315
00:14:53,386 --> 00:14:54,971
At least almost every part...
316
00:14:57,056 --> 00:14:57,849
From head to toe.
317
00:14:57,850 --> 00:14:59,934
I don't want you to skip anything that's...
318
00:14:59,935 --> 00:15:03,938
That you're aware of, starting right from your hair
319
00:15:03,939 --> 00:15:05,481
all the way down to your toes.
320
00:15:05,482 --> 00:15:10,194
And I want you to talk about how it looks to you,
321
00:15:10,195 --> 00:15:14,783
not what you project other people think it looks like,
322
00:15:14,784 --> 00:15:16,201
and how it feels.
323
00:15:16,202 --> 00:15:17,120
And if you need to touch yourself
324
00:15:17,121 --> 00:15:21,123
as you're doing that to remind yourself how it feels, fine...
325
00:15:21,124 --> 00:15:23,918
And how it functions.
326
00:15:23,919 --> 00:15:25,962
Did you scratch yourself?
327
00:15:25,963 --> 00:15:26,964
Looks like a scratch.
328
00:15:26,965 --> 00:15:28,088
Oh, that's from a bull in...
329
00:15:28,089 --> 00:15:30,007
- A what? - in Spain.
330
00:15:30,008 --> 00:15:31,259
- Oh, yeah? - Yeah.
331
00:15:31,260 --> 00:15:32,010
You don't say.
332
00:15:32,011 --> 00:15:34,638
KIPPER: Almost got gored.
333
00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:36,013
So I stand up here.
334
00:15:36,014 --> 00:15:38,182
You get to... you get to stand up, yeah.
335
00:15:38,183 --> 00:15:38,685
OK.
336
00:15:38,686 --> 00:15:41,018
MAUREEN: Stand up a little closer to it.
337
00:15:41,019 --> 00:15:43,021
So we just sort of talk about...
338
00:15:43,022 --> 00:15:43,565
MAUREEN: Mm-hmm.
339
00:15:43,566 --> 00:15:47,569
How it looks, feels, and functions.
340
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:48,446
Well, my hair...
341
00:15:48,447 --> 00:15:49,487
MAUREEN: To you.
342
00:15:49,488 --> 00:15:50,029
Yeah.
343
00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:52,741
My hair, I feel sort of ambivalent about it.
344
00:15:52,742 --> 00:15:54,952
I like the way it feels.
345
00:15:54,953 --> 00:15:57,788
I usually don't like the way it looks, because I think it's
346
00:15:57,789 --> 00:15:59,289
always sticking out too much.
347
00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:03,711
My teeth, I don't like these two big front teeth.
348
00:16:03,712 --> 00:16:06,130
I think they're too crooked.
349
00:16:06,131 --> 00:16:10,050
Um, well, one thing I don't like, in profile,
350
00:16:10,051 --> 00:16:15,432
is that I seem to sway forward in this... this part of my body.
351
00:16:15,433 --> 00:16:17,601
You know, the stance should be like this
352
00:16:17,602 --> 00:16:20,437
and I'm always like that.
353
00:16:20,438 --> 00:16:22,397
And then my rear end, what I don't like...
354
00:16:22,398 --> 00:16:24,776
That's one of the parts I like least about my body.
355
00:16:24,777 --> 00:16:28,946
Because it seems to stick out way too much.
356
00:16:28,947 --> 00:16:32,074
And I read that that's one of the parts...
357
00:16:32,075 --> 00:16:34,452
That's the sexual part of the body
358
00:16:34,453 --> 00:16:37,498
that women are most interested in in men.
359
00:16:37,499 --> 00:16:41,919
And they like them to be really flat there.
360
00:16:41,921 --> 00:16:42,670
And so...
361
00:16:42,670 --> 00:16:43,213
MAUREEN: Mm.
362
00:16:43,214 --> 00:16:46,089
I disagree with flat butts.
363
00:16:46,090 --> 00:16:50,887
How... what would you rate yourself from one to 100,
364
00:16:50,888 --> 00:16:52,055
or one to 10.
365
00:16:52,056 --> 00:16:53,058
It doesn't make any difference.
366
00:16:53,059 --> 00:16:55,099
So, like, five is average and...
367
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:57,143
MAUREEN: It's whatever you say it is.
368
00:16:57,144 --> 00:17:01,106
Um, six.
369
00:17:01,107 --> 00:17:04,359
MAUREEN: I... I... I would give you higher scores.
370
00:17:04,361 --> 00:17:09,741
Yeah, well, most people, yeah, tell me that my... you know,
371
00:17:09,742 --> 00:17:10,576
I'm too...
372
00:17:10,577 --> 00:17:12,661
I have a too poor image of...
373
00:17:12,662 --> 00:17:14,371
Yeah, it's not real hot.
374
00:17:14,372 --> 00:17:17,916
Because I think you've got an extremely nice body.
375
00:17:17,917 --> 00:17:18,209
Really?
376
00:17:18,210 --> 00:17:21,127
And I can't believe you give it a six!
377
00:17:21,127 --> 00:17:23,089
Well, at least...
378
00:17:23,089 --> 00:17:24,464
Well, you'd say extremely nice?
379
00:17:24,465 --> 00:17:26,550
MAUREEN: I would give you a nine!
380
00:17:26,551 --> 00:17:29,930
I don't see anything wrong with your body at all.
381
00:17:29,931 --> 00:17:31,472
Well, it's not... It's not muscular.
382
00:17:31,473 --> 00:17:32,975
MAUREEN: Well, if you want to... - [chuckles]
383
00:17:32,976 --> 00:17:35,602
MAUREEN: Is there a perfect body?
384
00:17:35,603 --> 00:17:36,145
I don't know.
385
00:17:36,146 --> 00:17:37,604
I never thought of it that way.
386
00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:42,317
MAUREEN: [laughs] I mean, what's there to improve on your body?
387
00:17:42,318 --> 00:17:45,153
Um, yeah.
388
00:17:45,154 --> 00:17:48,156
Actually, from being in locker rooms and things like that
389
00:17:48,157 --> 00:17:50,285
and seeing pictures, I actually say
390
00:17:50,286 --> 00:17:54,581
that my penis looks better than average... um, slightly,
391
00:17:54,582 --> 00:17:55,541
you know.
392
00:17:55,541 --> 00:17:56,208
But...
393
00:17:56,209 --> 00:18:00,629
And I know I remember when I was about 12 or 13,
394
00:18:00,630 --> 00:18:03,174
I read somewhere what the average length was.
395
00:18:03,175 --> 00:18:05,676
I measured it and everything just to see how it was.
396
00:18:05,677 --> 00:18:08,470
And it was just exactly the average size.
397
00:18:08,471 --> 00:18:09,180
Oh, good.
398
00:18:09,181 --> 00:18:12,517
It's good we don't have that as a hang-up.
399
00:18:12,518 --> 00:18:18,565
I guess what I like overall about my face
400
00:18:18,566 --> 00:18:19,692
is that it's really crooked.
401
00:18:19,693 --> 00:18:23,821
[laughs] And I decided I like it being crooked.
402
00:18:23,822 --> 00:18:24,906
I got a crooked jaw.
403
00:18:24,907 --> 00:18:25,657
See, it's really crooked there.
404
00:18:25,658 --> 00:18:29,201
It looks like a Mack truck ran over my face when I was born.
405
00:18:29,202 --> 00:18:31,663
And I have crooked nostrils.
406
00:18:31,664 --> 00:18:34,583
And one eye is smaller than the other.
407
00:18:34,584 --> 00:18:35,959
And this side of my lip is, like,
408
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,421
smaller, except with lipstick on, I can fix that.
409
00:18:39,422 --> 00:18:42,591
Uh, I think, gee, with such a crooked face,
410
00:18:42,592 --> 00:18:44,135
it still turned out, you know?
411
00:18:44,136 --> 00:18:44,678
I mean, you can...
412
00:18:44,679 --> 00:18:46,554
I mean, you can anything so it's an advantage, right?
413
00:18:46,555 --> 00:18:48,932
And so that's what I've done, is that, in spite
414
00:18:48,933 --> 00:18:51,060
of being crooked, it's good.
415
00:18:51,061 --> 00:18:54,228
Um, I don't like my bathing suit line.
416
00:18:54,229 --> 00:18:56,815
I much prefer just being tan.
417
00:18:56,816 --> 00:18:59,109
My breasts are a little crooked.
418
00:18:59,110 --> 00:19:01,236
That's kind of OK.
419
00:19:01,237 --> 00:19:03,156
I like my large nipples.
420
00:19:03,157 --> 00:19:06,533
And I... my... my breast size is OK.
421
00:19:06,534 --> 00:19:10,245
It, um... if they had to be bigger or smaller,
422
00:19:10,246 --> 00:19:11,498
I'd rather they were smaller.
423
00:19:11,499 --> 00:19:16,711
And when I... when I, you know, weight lift, then they... they...
424
00:19:16,712 --> 00:19:19,048
They're not quite so saggy.
425
00:19:19,049 --> 00:19:21,969
I like how sturdy my body is.
426
00:19:24,721 --> 00:19:29,475
It's... it's... it's definitely a good athletic body.
427
00:19:29,476 --> 00:19:34,898
I keep using "Playboy" as the measure for what
428
00:19:34,899 --> 00:19:38,152
a good woman's body is.
429
00:19:38,153 --> 00:19:40,238
And when I was in Kona and I saw all
430
00:19:40,239 --> 00:19:43,908
these women running in the triathlon,
431
00:19:43,909 --> 00:19:47,412
I realized that it's not...
432
00:19:47,413 --> 00:19:48,788
A good athletic body is not going
433
00:19:48,789 --> 00:19:51,250
to be the body that's going to look good in "Playboy."
434
00:19:51,251 --> 00:19:53,710
And that hadn't occurred to me before.
435
00:19:53,711 --> 00:19:54,294
I wanted both.
436
00:19:54,295 --> 00:19:56,295
I wanted to look real athletic, but I
437
00:19:56,296 --> 00:19:57,297
want to look like "Playboy."
438
00:19:57,298 --> 00:20:01,760
These women running... Running in the triathalon,
439
00:20:01,761 --> 00:20:06,598
and, like, they had bodies like me... and they looked...
440
00:20:06,599 --> 00:20:08,852
They looked in control somehow.
441
00:20:08,853 --> 00:20:11,688
They looked like they had control of themselves.
442
00:20:11,689 --> 00:20:16,359
They felt... they looked powerful and assertive and kind
443
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,320
of in charge.
444
00:20:19,321 --> 00:20:21,282
Just ordinary working...
445
00:20:21,283 --> 00:20:22,324
Working people.
446
00:20:22,325 --> 00:20:24,618
I work for Sears, and she babysits.
447
00:20:24,619 --> 00:20:29,041
And, uh, other than that, we're just average, uh...
448
00:20:29,042 --> 00:20:30,083
Average neighbors.
449
00:20:30,084 --> 00:20:31,919
ROSY: [chuckles] Yeah.
450
00:20:34,047 --> 00:20:34,505
We... go ahead.
451
00:20:34,506 --> 00:20:36,339
We... we've seen things in the neighborhood.
452
00:20:36,340 --> 00:20:38,592
We'd see guys come out with towels,
453
00:20:38,593 --> 00:20:40,427
and like they were just taking a shower,
454
00:20:40,428 --> 00:20:42,638
and we wondered what was going on over there.
455
00:20:42,639 --> 00:20:44,347
Or they'd come in with their briefcase
456
00:20:44,348 --> 00:20:46,350
or sort of an overnight bag.
457
00:20:46,351 --> 00:20:49,063
And we didn't know whether she was a prostitute
458
00:20:49,064 --> 00:20:50,314
or, you know just kind of...
459
00:20:51,274 --> 00:20:52,025
Well, we didn't...
460
00:20:52,026 --> 00:20:54,943
Whether... we didn't know exactly what she did.
461
00:20:54,944 --> 00:20:56,361
We just... we guessed a lot.
462
00:20:56,362 --> 00:20:59,406
The only time I could say I see people coming and going
463
00:20:59,407 --> 00:21:03,368
is if I'm at the front door looking out.
464
00:21:03,369 --> 00:21:04,370
Here comes the big cat.
465
00:21:04,371 --> 00:21:06,371
[laughs] My lucky cat.
466
00:21:06,372 --> 00:21:08,249
And that... you know, that's all.
467
00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:09,375
Because I work at home too..
468
00:21:09,376 --> 00:21:13,463
And most the parents that I work for...
469
00:21:13,464 --> 00:21:14,465
I'm in day care.
470
00:21:14,466 --> 00:21:17,383
And there's a lot of kids at the house during the daytime.
471
00:21:17,384 --> 00:21:21,305
My parents know about Mo, and they don't mind it either.
472
00:21:21,306 --> 00:21:25,518
You know, especially with the kids being here and stuff,
473
00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,145
they feel the same way I do.
474
00:21:27,146 --> 00:21:29,815
She works, and that's her type of business.
475
00:21:29,816 --> 00:21:30,398
I work.
476
00:21:30,399 --> 00:21:31,733
That's my type of business.
477
00:21:31,734 --> 00:21:33,860
I... I think that my penis is small,
478
00:21:33,861 --> 00:21:37,406
compared to the ones I've seen on other people,
479
00:21:37,407 --> 00:21:41,953
on friends, or men in the restrooms, everywhere.
480
00:21:41,954 --> 00:21:44,956
I have never seen anyone with a penis as small as this.
481
00:21:44,957 --> 00:21:46,415
And right now, it's larger than it
482
00:21:46,416 --> 00:21:48,835
is under normal circumstances.
483
00:21:48,836 --> 00:21:54,258
My sermon about penises is that, uh,
484
00:21:54,259 --> 00:21:57,427
the biggest difference in penis size is when men are flaccid.
485
00:21:57,428 --> 00:21:58,595
I don't know if you know that or not.
486
00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:02,432
I mean, a penis your size can be six inches hard
487
00:22:02,433 --> 00:22:06,020
and a penis your size can be three inches hard.
488
00:22:06,021 --> 00:22:09,190
I think a six-inch cock is a big cock.
489
00:22:09,191 --> 00:22:09,859
OK. But mine...
490
00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:12,527
Usually, they say six inches is average.
491
00:22:12,528 --> 00:22:13,654
Uh-huh.
492
00:22:18,326 --> 00:22:22,454
There's not many eight-inchers around either.
493
00:22:22,455 --> 00:22:22,747
Erect.
494
00:22:22,748 --> 00:22:24,456
I'd be real surprised Yeah, erect.
495
00:22:24,457 --> 00:22:25,875
I'd be real surprised.
496
00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:27,459
They just don't come that big.
497
00:22:28,337 --> 00:22:28,921
My vagina...
498
00:22:28,922 --> 00:22:30,964
The length is nowhere near as important, apparently,
499
00:22:30,965 --> 00:22:32,465
at least to the two people I know
500
00:22:32,466 --> 00:22:36,345
most intimately, as diameter.
501
00:22:36,346 --> 00:22:38,555
MAUREEN: I'll tell you, for me, it's neither one.
502
00:22:38,556 --> 00:22:39,266
OK.
503
00:22:39,267 --> 00:22:41,601
MAUREEN: My vagina is four and a quarter inches long.
504
00:22:41,602 --> 00:22:45,021
And they also say that tall women have longer vaginas.
505
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:46,481
Well, you're probably not going
506
00:22:46,482 --> 00:22:49,985
to run into somebody who's got a vagina any longer than mine.
507
00:22:50,486 --> 00:22:51,611
Four inches, I don't think you've
508
00:22:51,612 --> 00:22:53,239
got anything to worry about.
509
00:22:55,617 --> 00:22:59,494
I'm pretty well satisfied with my body.
510
00:22:59,495 --> 00:23:03,249
And you people are slowly but surely convincing me that
511
00:23:03,250 --> 00:23:05,835
even the thing that I'm not satisfied with...
512
00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:06,503
Namely, my penis...
513
00:23:06,504 --> 00:23:11,966
Is something that I should be, that is satisfactory.
514
00:23:11,967 --> 00:23:12,551
And we'll see.
515
00:23:12,552 --> 00:23:15,137
As time goes on, we'll find out.
516
00:23:15,138 --> 00:23:19,308
MICHAEL: Mo mentioned that, uh, it looked like a normal penis
517
00:23:19,309 --> 00:23:22,519
to her. - Well, that's good to hear.
518
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,273
I mean, that... that... That's something that I...
519
00:23:25,274 --> 00:23:28,525
That I had to hear, that I had to know from somebody other
520
00:23:28,526 --> 00:23:32,530
than the two who have commented on it's not being.
521
00:23:32,531 --> 00:23:34,283
They must have known supermen.
522
00:23:34,284 --> 00:23:35,700
They must know supermen.
523
00:23:35,701 --> 00:23:36,995
I don't know.
524
00:23:40,332 --> 00:23:42,541
Yeah, I went into the therapy... one of... one
525
00:23:42,542 --> 00:23:44,877
of the thoughts in the back of my mind, of course,
526
00:23:44,878 --> 00:23:48,548
has always been that...
527
00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:53,220
[clears throat]... that if I could become
528
00:23:53,221 --> 00:24:01,230
the physical lover that you seek, um,
529
00:24:07,152 --> 00:24:12,657
maybe I could talk you into bed again.
530
00:24:12,658 --> 00:24:14,575
[laughs]
531
00:24:14,576 --> 00:24:18,580
I don't think I'm going to move backwards in this world.
532
00:24:18,581 --> 00:24:22,584
You... [clears throat] our divorce
533
00:24:22,585 --> 00:24:27,424
was predicated upon not only the sexual
534
00:24:27,425 --> 00:24:30,010
inadequacy you experienced.
535
00:24:30,011 --> 00:24:30,636
GRACE: Not only that.
536
00:24:30,637 --> 00:24:38,601
That was not among the 10 most prevalent...
537
00:24:38,602 --> 00:24:40,104
Most pertinent reasons for divorce.
538
00:24:40,105 --> 00:24:42,606
JOHN: It was not among the 10 most pertinent reasons?
539
00:24:42,607 --> 00:24:43,233
Mm-hmm. JOHN: Oh.
540
00:24:43,234 --> 00:24:45,652
Can you verbalize a primary reason?
541
00:24:48,489 --> 00:24:50,614
How many people are listening?
542
00:24:50,615 --> 00:24:52,617
You're a slob.
543
00:24:52,618 --> 00:24:53,619
JOHN: I'm a slob.
544
00:24:53,620 --> 00:24:55,162
OK.
545
00:24:55,163 --> 00:24:58,124
That's more important than...
546
00:24:58,125 --> 00:25:00,543
Did it take you 20 years to notice I was a slob?
547
00:25:00,544 --> 00:25:01,378
No.
548
00:25:01,379 --> 00:25:04,756
It took me 20 years to realize I couldn't do anything about it.
549
00:25:04,757 --> 00:25:05,923
JOHN: Oh.
550
00:25:05,924 --> 00:25:08,385
You talk as if this was a very important...
551
00:25:08,386 --> 00:25:08,802
GRACE: Look.
552
00:25:08,803 --> 00:25:12,598
I don't ever say that sex is not an important part in marriage.
553
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:14,892
It is absolutely very important.
554
00:25:14,893 --> 00:25:15,643
JOHN: Of course.
555
00:25:15,644 --> 00:25:18,103
And therefore, a very important part of... of...
556
00:25:18,104 --> 00:25:19,105
Of your divorce.
557
00:25:19,106 --> 00:25:20,440
Therefore, not necessarily...
558
00:25:20,441 --> 00:25:21,192
That was not...
559
00:25:21,192 --> 00:25:21,775
JOHN: less than...
560
00:25:21,776 --> 00:25:23,860
I could have gotten a divorce our second year of marriage,
561
00:25:23,861 --> 00:25:25,278
our third year of marriage, our fifth year,
562
00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,116
our tenth year if the reason for divorce would have been sex.
563
00:25:41,338 --> 00:25:45,467
Well... well, in our second or third
564
00:25:45,468 --> 00:25:47,344
or fourth year of marriage, you never
565
00:25:47,345 --> 00:25:50,097
conveyed that to me in any way.
566
00:25:50,098 --> 00:25:52,391
In the second, third, or fourth year of our marriage,
567
00:25:52,392 --> 00:25:59,107
we were in the years of 1961, 1962, 1963.
568
00:25:59,108 --> 00:26:03,444
And in those years, we did not have, as women, the liberty
569
00:26:03,445 --> 00:26:05,321
to complain about certain things,
570
00:26:05,322 --> 00:26:08,699
such as how we were not receiving what we were supposed
571
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:09,909
to be receiving in bed.
572
00:26:09,910 --> 00:26:13,205
In fact, the books that came out during that period of time
573
00:26:13,206 --> 00:26:14,873
said, hey, uh, forget it.
574
00:26:14,874 --> 00:26:17,876
I mean, it's going to take you 35 minutes to have an orgasm,
575
00:26:17,877 --> 00:26:18,504
you know?
576
00:26:18,505 --> 00:26:22,257
You can't expect your husband to be that long in time
577
00:26:22,258 --> 00:26:25,760
before ejaculation, so forget it.
578
00:26:25,761 --> 00:26:26,971
Forget it.
579
00:26:32,726 --> 00:26:37,189
He wants to be this... this passionate, out of control guy.
580
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:38,692
And so basically, I'm... - Well, halfway, yeah.
581
00:26:38,693 --> 00:26:40,734
Like, that's... you know, if we could switch
582
00:26:40,735 --> 00:26:41,736
parts of our brains, sort of.
583
00:26:41,737 --> 00:26:46,700
Because he... he's too uncontrolled and...
584
00:26:46,701 --> 00:26:48,743
And compulsive and everything, and I'm too
585
00:26:48,744 --> 00:26:50,454
controlled and avoiding things.
586
00:26:50,455 --> 00:26:52,873
He'll jump into something unadvisable,
587
00:26:52,874 --> 00:26:54,459
where I'll always avoid something,
588
00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:55,252
whether it's advisable or not.
589
00:26:55,253 --> 00:26:58,753
When we were in Spain, I used to try to set him up with girls
590
00:26:58,754 --> 00:27:01,717
that we'd meet in, like, the discoteca...
591
00:27:01,718 --> 00:27:03,426
You know, dance hall and bar.
592
00:27:03,427 --> 00:27:07,723
But... and you know, I always saw that the girls had...
593
00:27:07,724 --> 00:27:09,099
Had a high opinion of Kipper.
594
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,227
It's just that, again, you know, he didn't make any
595
00:27:12,228 --> 00:27:14,771
of those necessary first moves.
596
00:27:14,772 --> 00:27:17,774
So sometimes, I'd feel, you know, it's just futile
597
00:27:17,775 --> 00:27:19,653
for me to try to set him up.
598
00:27:24,783 --> 00:27:30,788
Would you like, um, powder or hand lotion?
599
00:27:31,790 --> 00:27:32,791
Lotion.
600
00:27:32,791 --> 00:27:33,251
OK.
601
00:27:33,252 --> 00:27:35,669
Was that hard to answer?
602
00:27:35,670 --> 00:27:37,963
You look real nervous right now.
603
00:27:37,964 --> 00:27:38,674
Well...
604
00:27:38,675 --> 00:27:40,216
MAUREEN: You look scared.
605
00:27:40,217 --> 00:27:43,596
[music playing]
606
00:28:22,221 --> 00:28:23,846
Real nervous on the mat.
607
00:28:23,847 --> 00:28:25,515
I mean, he just looked like he was
608
00:28:25,516 --> 00:28:26,891
ready to jump out of his skin.
609
00:28:26,892 --> 00:28:31,272
And you know, not aware of it.
610
00:28:31,273 --> 00:28:32,523
I mean, his eyes were real fluttery
611
00:28:32,524 --> 00:28:35,819
and his mouth had a lot of tension.
612
00:28:35,820 --> 00:28:41,283
Um, I would like to be more open with him.
613
00:28:41,284 --> 00:28:43,868
What I wish would happen is that I would...
614
00:28:43,869 --> 00:28:45,537
What I realistically wish would happen
615
00:28:45,538 --> 00:28:50,876
is that I would be considerably less resistant or considerably
616
00:28:50,877 --> 00:28:56,215
more able to overcome my resistance to being,
617
00:28:56,216 --> 00:29:01,680
you know, physically affectionate with her.
618
00:29:01,681 --> 00:29:02,723
You know, I didn't...
619
00:29:02,724 --> 00:29:05,350
I didn't say anything about taking initiative.
620
00:29:05,351 --> 00:29:08,186
And I didn't take any initiative, and so...
621
00:29:08,187 --> 00:29:10,939
You know, which I had been hoping I would do, so...
622
00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:11,941
WARREN: What do you mean?
623
00:29:11,942 --> 00:29:13,400
When you say "taking initiative,"
624
00:29:13,401 --> 00:29:15,903
I'm wondering what you mean specifically.
625
00:29:15,904 --> 00:29:18,905
Like touching her in some way or another
626
00:29:18,906 --> 00:29:21,909
without her doing it first, you know.
627
00:29:21,910 --> 00:29:25,246
And so far, I've never been able to do that with anybody.
628
00:29:25,247 --> 00:29:27,583
I've never been willing to do that with anybody.
629
00:29:27,584 --> 00:29:29,917
And I'd like to get over that.
630
00:29:29,918 --> 00:29:35,759
Warren wanted me to give you space to touch, to initiate.
631
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:36,885
So I'm sitting here waiting.
632
00:29:36,886 --> 00:29:39,679
And nothing's happening.
633
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:39,971
Yeah.
634
00:29:39,972 --> 00:29:41,930
And that's what part of my talking is about,
635
00:29:41,931 --> 00:29:44,934
is about buying time here.
636
00:29:44,935 --> 00:29:47,938
So I feel like I've got two choices.
637
00:29:47,939 --> 00:29:49,939
I can either sit and wait and maybe
638
00:29:49,940 --> 00:29:52,108
keep my mouth shut for a change and not
639
00:29:52,109 --> 00:29:56,072
cover up my uncomfortable feelings with talking,
640
00:29:56,073 --> 00:30:01,952
or I can go ahead and initiate the touching
641
00:30:01,953 --> 00:30:03,954
and get it over with.
642
00:30:03,955 --> 00:30:07,334
I guess it would be better for me, if, you know,
643
00:30:07,335 --> 00:30:10,545
I force myself to initiate it.
644
00:30:10,546 --> 00:30:11,923
But it's just...
645
00:30:11,924 --> 00:30:15,175
I'd like you to put your hand on my knee.
646
00:30:15,176 --> 00:30:17,345
OK.
647
00:30:17,346 --> 00:30:19,972
That other hand might be more comfortable.
648
00:30:19,973 --> 00:30:20,934
Yeah.
649
00:30:23,143 --> 00:30:27,188
I always feel so uncomfortable doing things like this.
650
00:30:27,189 --> 00:30:28,981
How does that feel?
651
00:30:28,982 --> 00:30:30,275
Is it uncomfortable?
652
00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:30,985
No.
653
00:30:30,986 --> 00:30:34,613
It's just, uh, now I'm sort of feeling,
654
00:30:34,614 --> 00:30:38,868
you know, that frustration with myself from the last session.
655
00:30:38,869 --> 00:30:42,998
You know, god dammit, why don't you just do this, you know?
656
00:30:47,002 --> 00:30:50,506
I seem to be feeling more this session.
657
00:30:50,507 --> 00:30:51,674
That's good.
658
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,223
KIPPER: I'm feeling more self-revealing too.
659
00:31:01,894 --> 00:31:06,022
I know that when I was just starting
660
00:31:06,023 --> 00:31:07,357
to go through puberty and everything,
661
00:31:07,358 --> 00:31:09,819
I went through a really rebellious stage.
662
00:31:09,820 --> 00:31:10,987
And I guess a lot of people do.
663
00:31:10,988 --> 00:31:14,741
But I remember feeling pretty... quite hostile
664
00:31:14,742 --> 00:31:17,033
towards my mother, and, you know,
665
00:31:17,034 --> 00:31:18,996
liking my stepfather much more.
666
00:31:18,997 --> 00:31:22,624
And when they were divorced and I could choose between living
667
00:31:22,625 --> 00:31:25,419
with either one of them, and I had been living with her,
668
00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:27,128
and I chose to live with my stepfather, that
669
00:31:27,129 --> 00:31:31,802
was a pretty negative message to her I was giving.
670
00:31:35,681 --> 00:31:38,308
MAUREEN: You look sad.
671
00:31:38,309 --> 00:31:40,058
Yeah.
672
00:31:40,059 --> 00:31:41,061
Yeah, I feel kind of sad.
673
00:31:41,062 --> 00:31:47,066
Because, you know, what Warren said
674
00:31:47,067 --> 00:31:48,109
made me think that, well, you know,
675
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:53,073
maybe I haven't realized all this time that there
676
00:31:53,074 --> 00:31:56,494
was this big missing in my...
677
00:31:56,495 --> 00:31:58,329
In my, you know, very early childhood.
678
00:31:58,330 --> 00:32:01,625
You know, and that's... And I can't really
679
00:32:01,626 --> 00:32:03,084
do much about that.
680
00:32:17,893 --> 00:32:19,101
I practiced...
681
00:32:19,102 --> 00:32:22,104
on myself several times this week.
682
00:32:22,105 --> 00:32:22,982
It made me feel...
683
00:32:22,983 --> 00:32:24,315
Tell me, how'd it go?
684
00:32:24,316 --> 00:32:26,108
I was surprised how well...
685
00:32:26,109 --> 00:32:27,028
Well...
686
00:32:27,028 --> 00:32:27,904
[laughs]
687
00:32:27,905 --> 00:32:29,780
On one hand, I'm surprised how...
688
00:32:29,781 --> 00:32:31,991
How well it went, more or less.
689
00:32:31,992 --> 00:32:34,869
That is, I could hold out for a long time, and I could stop,
690
00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:41,167
and I was able to detect the point where I had to stop.
691
00:32:41,168 --> 00:32:43,127
And not once did I...
692
00:32:43,128 --> 00:32:45,631
I tried very hard to get as close as I could,
693
00:32:45,632 --> 00:32:46,841
and not once did I go over.
694
00:32:46,842 --> 00:32:53,138
However, I also was a little disappointed in that it seemed
695
00:32:53,139 --> 00:32:56,141
the reason I wasn't going over and the reason I
696
00:32:56,142 --> 00:33:02,147
wasn't, uh, uh, getting close...
697
00:33:02,148 --> 00:33:07,780
Going too far... was that I had to work in order to remain
698
00:33:07,781 --> 00:33:09,531
erect in the first place.
699
00:33:09,532 --> 00:33:11,993
Now when you went to masturbate the other day,
700
00:33:11,994 --> 00:33:13,619
did you have feelings in your genitals
701
00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:15,162
when you decided to do that?
702
00:33:15,163 --> 00:33:18,416
JOHN: I... I had earlier in the day.
703
00:33:18,417 --> 00:33:21,168
But by the time I got to the bed, no.
704
00:33:21,169 --> 00:33:22,462
Well, there's your answer, kiddo.
705
00:33:22,463 --> 00:33:25,591
Your head told you it was time to masturbate, not your body.
706
00:33:25,592 --> 00:33:26,175
Right.
707
00:33:26,176 --> 00:33:28,635
Oh, no question about that. I agree.
708
00:33:28,636 --> 00:33:29,178
OK.
709
00:33:29,178 --> 00:33:30,014
That's an important point.
710
00:33:30,015 --> 00:33:32,180
A lot of people have intercourse because their head says,
711
00:33:32,181 --> 00:33:34,224
well, I went on a date, and this is part one...
712
00:33:34,225 --> 00:33:35,560
Right. I often... right.
713
00:33:35,561 --> 00:33:37,145
and we should be.
714
00:33:37,146 --> 00:33:39,731
Have no feelings of arousal whatsoever.
715
00:33:40,191 --> 00:33:43,819
And then try to have sex and can't get it up and haven't
716
00:33:43,820 --> 00:33:45,946
the faintest idea why.
717
00:33:45,947 --> 00:33:48,197
Not the faintest.
718
00:33:48,198 --> 00:33:49,199
Oh, did you try using oil?
719
00:33:49,201 --> 00:33:51,785
I used, uh... oh, what do you call it...
720
00:33:51,786 --> 00:33:54,288
Vaseline, uh, lotion.
721
00:33:54,289 --> 00:33:55,206
OK.
722
00:33:55,206 --> 00:33:55,666
OK.
723
00:33:55,667 --> 00:33:59,753
You know, um, experiment around with those two.
724
00:33:59,754 --> 00:34:01,421
Vegetable oil works fine.
725
00:34:01,422 --> 00:34:03,214
And it's cheaper too. [laughs]
726
00:34:03,215 --> 00:34:03,883
Yeah. Right.
727
00:34:03,884 --> 00:34:05,134
And it's... you know, it's right in the cupboard.
728
00:34:05,135 --> 00:34:06,635
Because it bothers me to use that lotion.
729
00:34:06,636 --> 00:34:08,179
Oh, god.
730
00:34:08,179 --> 00:34:08,639
You cheapskate.
731
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,556
You won't even use good hand lotion on your own cock.
732
00:34:13,226 --> 00:34:17,856
Is that how you treat your penis?
733
00:34:17,857 --> 00:34:21,193
Get the cheapest shit you can buy in the grocery store.
734
00:34:21,194 --> 00:34:24,235
Anyway, vegetable oil is good.
735
00:34:24,237 --> 00:34:25,239
And it's cheap, right?
736
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,242
OK, if you run out of vegetable oil, you can try mayonnaise.
737
00:34:28,243 --> 00:34:29,243
That's one I've heard.
738
00:34:29,244 --> 00:34:30,954
[laughs] Oh, yeah, right.
739
00:34:30,955 --> 00:34:32,163
I'm going to use mayonnaise.
740
00:34:32,164 --> 00:34:32,748
MAUREEN: Right.
741
00:34:32,748 --> 00:34:35,248
Well, maybe the cheap stuff.
742
00:34:35,248 --> 00:34:38,378
OK, the squeeze is just going like that.
743
00:34:38,379 --> 00:34:40,338
Uh-huh. I know that.
744
00:34:40,339 --> 00:34:40,839
OK.
745
00:34:40,841 --> 00:34:42,925
And it will work if you've got your timing right.
746
00:34:42,926 --> 00:34:43,425
JOHN: Right.
747
00:34:43,426 --> 00:34:46,136
If you've got your timing right.
748
00:34:46,137 --> 00:34:47,846
I mess it up one third of the time.
749
00:34:47,847 --> 00:34:49,014
Ah, that's too much.
750
00:34:49,014 --> 00:34:54,938
You should get it down to only missing it once every 10 times.
751
00:34:54,938 --> 00:34:56,272
I'd like you to try masturbating... are
752
00:34:56,273 --> 00:34:59,859
you going for about 15 minutes?
753
00:34:59,860 --> 00:35:00,444
JOHN: I don't know.
754
00:35:00,445 --> 00:35:03,488
It doesn't matter how many times you squeeze.
755
00:35:03,489 --> 00:35:06,282
Your penis will eventually get used
756
00:35:06,283 --> 00:35:08,244
to being hard and not cumming.
757
00:35:08,245 --> 00:35:11,747
That's what we're teaching your penis to do.
758
00:35:11,748 --> 00:35:12,582
I try to...
759
00:35:12,583 --> 00:35:16,293
My... my timing mechanism is Johnny Carson's monologue.
760
00:35:16,294 --> 00:35:18,546
If I can make it through that, I think I've done pretty well.
761
00:35:18,547 --> 00:35:19,881
MAUREEN: Well, that's your first mistake.
762
00:35:19,882 --> 00:35:22,551
You shouldn't be watching his monologue at all.
763
00:35:22,552 --> 00:35:23,302
[laughs]
764
00:35:23,303 --> 00:35:25,138
MAUREEN: Television off.
765
00:35:25,139 --> 00:35:27,347
Absolutely off.
766
00:35:27,348 --> 00:35:27,891
Uh-huh.
767
00:35:27,892 --> 00:35:30,059
Put your trust in on the squeeze
768
00:35:30,060 --> 00:35:32,186
or to stop-start method.
769
00:35:32,187 --> 00:35:33,188
Go ahead and fantasize.
770
00:35:33,189 --> 00:35:36,315
Do whatever you do normally.
771
00:35:36,316 --> 00:35:37,443
It works.
772
00:35:44,576 --> 00:35:45,452
How's that feel?
773
00:35:45,452 --> 00:35:46,411
It feels great.
774
00:35:46,411 --> 00:35:47,246
It feels good.
775
00:35:47,247 --> 00:35:48,412
MAUREEN: Pressure too light?
776
00:35:48,413 --> 00:35:49,330
It could be harder?
777
00:35:49,331 --> 00:35:51,124
No, not too light.
778
00:35:51,125 --> 00:35:52,001
It's... it's nice.
779
00:35:52,002 --> 00:35:54,879
MAUREEN: And you like it over here on this side?
780
00:35:56,797 --> 00:35:57,423
Like that?
781
00:35:57,424 --> 00:35:59,007
Like that, it's great.
782
00:35:59,008 --> 00:36:00,592
OK, like that.
783
00:36:00,593 --> 00:36:02,343
Oh, yes.
784
00:36:02,344 --> 00:36:03,345
If, by chance, you feel like you're
785
00:36:03,346 --> 00:36:07,432
going to get close to cumming, give me plenty of leeway.
786
00:36:07,433 --> 00:36:09,935
Don't get it right to the edge.
787
00:36:11,354 --> 00:36:12,980
JOHN: We're getting close.
788
00:36:12,981 --> 00:36:13,356
OK.
789
00:36:13,356 --> 00:36:14,357
Should I just go ahead and squeeze?
790
00:36:14,358 --> 00:36:16,650
JOHN: I don't think it's time to squeeze yet.
791
00:36:16,651 --> 00:36:17,737
OK.
792
00:36:44,389 --> 00:36:48,811
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to cut this off.
793
00:36:48,812 --> 00:36:50,646
MAUREEN: What do you mean, "cut it off?"
794
00:36:50,647 --> 00:36:51,315
I mean, I...
795
00:36:51,316 --> 00:36:55,400
I... I'm not sure I'm going to feel the point where you're
796
00:36:55,401 --> 00:36:56,861
going to have to squeeze. Because...
797
00:36:56,862 --> 00:36:57,571
MAUREEN: Should I squeeze?
798
00:36:57,572 --> 00:37:01,407
depending upon what you do, I can... you know, right now,
799
00:37:01,408 --> 00:37:02,784
that... that could last forever.
800
00:37:02,785 --> 00:37:04,619
But when you're doing this, I...
801
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:06,039
I'm not sure where...
802
00:37:10,544 --> 00:37:12,337
You're doing well.
803
00:37:12,338 --> 00:37:13,587
Most premature ejaculators would have
804
00:37:13,588 --> 00:37:15,422
had to have a squeeze by now.
805
00:37:15,843 --> 00:37:18,426
Or a squeeze, like, every three strokes.
806
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:23,098
OK, you better squeeze now.
807
00:37:23,099 --> 00:37:25,143
OK.
808
00:37:27,728 --> 00:37:28,938
You're doing good.
809
00:37:28,939 --> 00:37:31,440
You're doing really good.
810
00:37:31,441 --> 00:37:34,027
I don't think you're going to have any problem.
811
00:37:39,449 --> 00:37:42,203
Yeah, I... I'm doing it because I want to do it.
812
00:37:43,872 --> 00:37:45,331
And if... and there's just not enough
813
00:37:45,332 --> 00:37:46,832
time to have a relationship.
814
00:37:46,833 --> 00:37:48,458
It's like a kid going to med school.
815
00:37:48,459 --> 00:37:51,045
I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to think
816
00:37:51,046 --> 00:37:52,546
that they may not have a relationship going.
817
00:37:52,547 --> 00:37:55,466
Because we all know that, when you're in med school,
818
00:37:55,467 --> 00:37:56,676
you're studying eight hours a day
819
00:37:56,677 --> 00:37:58,636
and going to classes eight hours a day,
820
00:37:58,637 --> 00:38:01,806
and then doing rounds at the hospital.
821
00:38:01,807 --> 00:38:03,809
And we say, oh, that's OK.
822
00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:05,477
He's got a goal.
823
00:38:05,478 --> 00:38:07,480
And... and to accomplish that goal,
824
00:38:07,481 --> 00:38:09,231
you have to kind of let go of other things.
825
00:38:09,232 --> 00:38:10,234
INTERVIEWER: See, some people say...
826
00:38:10,235 --> 00:38:11,276
If a woman does that...
827
00:38:11,277 --> 00:38:11,818
Yeah.
828
00:38:11,819 --> 00:38:13,819
it's like, well, she's avoiding a relationship,
829
00:38:13,820 --> 00:38:15,487
she's doing this, she's a lesbian.
830
00:38:15,488 --> 00:38:16,489
You know.
831
00:38:16,490 --> 00:38:22,205
And I'm deciding that it's OK to be who I am, regardless
832
00:38:22,206 --> 00:38:23,496
of the pressure that I get for not
833
00:38:23,497 --> 00:38:26,042
being an adequate human being because I
834
00:38:26,043 --> 00:38:27,877
don't have a boyfriend.
835
00:38:27,878 --> 00:38:32,924
One of the, uh, women, in my, um, group therapy is really
836
00:38:32,925 --> 00:38:33,800
voluptuous and everything.
837
00:38:33,801 --> 00:38:36,011
And she... and really outgoing and everything.
838
00:38:36,012 --> 00:38:38,347
She gave me her phone number a long time ago.
839
00:38:38,348 --> 00:38:41,391
And I, finally, a couple of days ago,
840
00:38:41,392 --> 00:38:43,852
got up the courage to call her.
841
00:38:43,853 --> 00:38:44,562
I mean, that's pretty good.
842
00:38:44,563 --> 00:38:47,148
You joined a social club and you called a woman.
843
00:38:47,149 --> 00:38:47,899
I'm impressed.
844
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:49,359
You got a car and...
845
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:49,651
Yeah.
846
00:38:49,652 --> 00:38:52,196
You've come a long way in a couple of months.
847
00:38:54,949 --> 00:38:59,536
OK, so now we're going to sexological.
848
00:39:01,539 --> 00:39:04,875
Talk to me more about vaginas. - Um...
849
00:39:04,876 --> 00:39:05,918
MAUREEN: For your... for your...
850
00:39:05,919 --> 00:39:09,588
You know, for your information, but also, it's
851
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:10,548
interesting to me.
852
00:39:10,549 --> 00:39:12,259
Because I'm not a man, and...
853
00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:13,550
And I don't know...
854
00:39:13,551 --> 00:39:14,552
You know, the more I know about how men
855
00:39:14,553 --> 00:39:17,639
think about vaginas, good and bad, the better understanding
856
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:18,890
I have.
857
00:39:18,891 --> 00:39:19,434
Yeah.
858
00:39:19,435 --> 00:39:23,104
Well, like I told Warren, I always thought that, um...
859
00:39:23,105 --> 00:39:26,983
That, you know, it was a turn-on to see a vagina and everything,
860
00:39:26,984 --> 00:39:29,068
but they also looked gross.
861
00:39:29,069 --> 00:39:29,778
I don't know.
862
00:39:29,779 --> 00:39:31,405
It seems to me that...
863
00:39:31,406 --> 00:39:34,657
That most men would say that, you know,
864
00:39:34,658 --> 00:39:36,576
that, yeah, it's a turn-on and everything,
865
00:39:36,577 --> 00:39:40,205
but it does look kind of ugly.
866
00:39:40,206 --> 00:39:41,582
I don't know.
867
00:39:43,585 --> 00:39:46,962
That's not what I hear.
868
00:39:46,963 --> 00:39:47,923
Of course, who's going to tell you...
869
00:39:47,924 --> 00:39:50,508
I mean, it wouldn't be very nice for guys to be like,
870
00:39:50,509 --> 00:39:51,591
oh, you're... you're gross.
871
00:39:51,592 --> 00:39:53,177
I mean, a therapy situation is fine,
872
00:39:53,178 --> 00:39:54,971
but it wouldn't be to their benefit to say
873
00:39:54,972 --> 00:39:56,597
that in a lovemaking situation.
874
00:39:56,598 --> 00:39:58,057
I mean, you wouldn't say that either.
875
00:39:58,058 --> 00:40:00,144
You wouldn't get very far.
876
00:40:00,145 --> 00:40:01,937
Um, but I get a lot...
877
00:40:01,938 --> 00:40:04,857
I get a lot of men saying they really like the way
878
00:40:04,858 --> 00:40:06,608
my vagina looks.
879
00:40:06,609 --> 00:40:14,617
And my sense is that, in a real abstract way,
880
00:40:15,244 --> 00:40:20,541
I guess you could say vaginas are gross,
881
00:40:20,542 --> 00:40:23,085
and that women would say the same thing about penises...
882
00:40:23,086 --> 00:40:24,753
You know, all that stuff hanging down
883
00:40:24,754 --> 00:40:26,547
between their legs and hairy.
884
00:40:26,548 --> 00:40:29,383
You know, that's how my mom used to talk.
885
00:40:29,384 --> 00:40:32,636
I think my mom had a lot of difficulty with sex.
886
00:40:32,637 --> 00:40:35,015
I think people that have got their sex act together
887
00:40:35,016 --> 00:40:39,644
basically think that genitals are very appealing.
888
00:40:39,645 --> 00:40:40,896
What's it feel like?
889
00:40:40,897 --> 00:40:48,906
It feels warm and, you know, lumpy, and...
890
00:40:53,285 --> 00:40:55,537
Warm and slippery are the main ones.
891
00:40:59,334 --> 00:41:01,667
And like, yeah, that it's very flexible.
892
00:41:01,668 --> 00:41:02,879
It could expand a lot.
893
00:41:06,674 --> 00:41:09,676
Does it seem like a nice place to put your penis?
894
00:41:09,677 --> 00:41:10,096
Yeah.
895
00:41:10,097 --> 00:41:13,640
That there's no rough edges and it's...
896
00:41:13,641 --> 00:41:16,434
It's going to be big enough that you could
897
00:41:16,435 --> 00:41:17,228
put your penis all the way in.
898
00:41:17,229 --> 00:41:20,356
Yeah, just... yeah, it's designed for that...
899
00:41:20,357 --> 00:41:21,066
MAUREEN: Yeah.
900
00:41:21,067 --> 00:41:22,691
among other things.
901
00:41:22,692 --> 00:41:25,236
Do you feel a hard thing back there,
902
00:41:25,237 --> 00:41:28,698
like the back... like, it feels like the tip of your nose?
903
00:41:32,245 --> 00:41:33,703
I think you're on it?
904
00:41:35,289 --> 00:41:35,915
Gotta be.
905
00:41:35,916 --> 00:41:37,082
That can't be my uterus.
906
00:41:37,083 --> 00:41:38,000
Oh, yeah.
907
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:38,793
That's it.
908
00:41:38,794 --> 00:41:40,545
That's my ovary.
909
00:41:40,546 --> 00:41:42,713
Ovaries feel like testicles.
910
00:41:45,050 --> 00:41:45,551
OK.
911
00:41:45,552 --> 00:41:46,968
Bring your fingers out a little bit.
912
00:41:46,969 --> 00:41:49,303
They don't need to be that far in.
913
00:41:49,304 --> 00:41:50,763
And push down more.
914
00:41:50,764 --> 00:41:52,599
Open that vagina right up.
915
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:52,933
OK.
916
00:41:52,934 --> 00:41:54,435
Actually not quite that much.
917
00:41:54,436 --> 00:41:55,727
There you go.
918
00:41:57,855 --> 00:41:58,730
Nope, nope.
919
00:41:58,731 --> 00:41:59,982
The other... that way.
920
00:41:59,983 --> 00:42:02,234
Bring it out a little bit.
921
00:42:02,235 --> 00:42:03,945
About like so.
922
00:42:06,030 --> 00:42:08,659
Bring the handle closer to my butt.
923
00:42:13,831 --> 00:42:15,749
Now how would you describe it?
924
00:42:19,337 --> 00:42:21,630
Oh, it's sort of like a...
925
00:42:21,631 --> 00:42:23,549
Your cave, you know?
926
00:42:23,550 --> 00:42:24,675
That last session and this session
927
00:42:24,676 --> 00:42:27,219
are the first time that I've seen, you know,
928
00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:29,514
close-up, real vagina.
929
00:42:29,515 --> 00:42:32,559
WARREN: Was it... was it a useful experience?
930
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:33,394
Yeah, I think it was.
931
00:42:33,395 --> 00:42:36,771
I mean, like, just for, you know,
932
00:42:36,772 --> 00:42:41,611
when I do get involved in some kind of sexual relationship,
933
00:42:41,612 --> 00:42:42,069
I will know...
934
00:42:42,070 --> 00:42:44,779
I mean, just anatomically, I will know some things
935
00:42:44,780 --> 00:42:47,700
about, you know, what are the sensitive areas
936
00:42:47,701 --> 00:42:48,368
and where things are.
937
00:42:48,369 --> 00:42:50,621
And now do you have any thoughts about that?
938
00:42:50,622 --> 00:42:50,913
How...
939
00:42:50,914 --> 00:42:56,335
Well, just these unconnected thoughts about how...
940
00:42:56,336 --> 00:42:58,754
Hey, look, I'm doing this thing, you know, that I
941
00:42:58,755 --> 00:42:59,464
haven't ever done before.
942
00:42:59,465 --> 00:43:06,803
And, um, you know, it's a pretty normal thing to do actually.
943
00:43:06,804 --> 00:43:07,765
Yeah.
944
00:43:07,766 --> 00:43:09,265
Do you know what a speculum is?
945
00:43:09,266 --> 00:43:09,807
No idea.
946
00:43:09,808 --> 00:43:11,100
It's like what the gynecologist uses.
947
00:43:11,101 --> 00:43:15,897
And I stuck that in her vagina. - A what?
948
00:43:15,898 --> 00:43:16,940
What's it called?
949
00:43:16,941 --> 00:43:17,816
Speculum.
950
00:43:17,817 --> 00:43:20,444
And I probed around and stuff.
951
00:43:20,445 --> 00:43:21,071
You mean, like when...
952
00:43:21,072 --> 00:43:24,573
When they do pregnancy testing and they put them up on the...
953
00:43:24,574 --> 00:43:27,159
Well, she didn't put her feet up on stirrups or anything.
954
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:28,827
Yeah, the stirrups.
955
00:43:28,828 --> 00:43:31,748
Yeah, well, you probably know a lot more about anatomy
956
00:43:31,749 --> 00:43:32,083
than I do.
957
00:43:32,084 --> 00:43:35,126
I mean, to me, all that is something,
958
00:43:35,127 --> 00:43:40,383
you know, moist and sought after in the dark, preferably
959
00:43:40,384 --> 00:43:44,845
under a lot of, uh, sheets and cushions and blankets.
960
00:43:44,846 --> 00:43:47,849
If I ever, you know, bed down with somebody,
961
00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:51,478
I'll have a better idea of, you know, what...
962
00:43:51,479 --> 00:43:54,565
You know, what turns them on.
963
00:43:54,566 --> 00:43:54,856
So...
964
00:43:54,857 --> 00:43:57,818
But fumbling around is part of the romance of it all.
965
00:43:57,819 --> 00:44:01,863
Remember, my taboo argument... That it has to be, you know,
966
00:44:01,864 --> 00:44:03,575
about one fourth taboo.
967
00:44:03,576 --> 00:44:03,950
Oh, yeah.
968
00:44:03,951 --> 00:44:07,203
We were talking about that to some length.
969
00:44:07,204 --> 00:44:09,455
I was talking about that with Mo to some length.
970
00:44:09,456 --> 00:44:12,876
And she was... she thought that that was a,
971
00:44:12,877 --> 00:44:16,839
you know, strange idea, that most of her partners, it was...
972
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,800
It was all just for the sensation of it
973
00:44:19,801 --> 00:44:24,054
and not because of any taboo thing.
974
00:44:24,055 --> 00:44:28,100
Anyway, what's... what's on the agenda for your next session?
975
00:44:28,101 --> 00:44:31,896
[music playing]
976
00:45:24,954 --> 00:45:26,246
MAUREEN: It's nice to be able to get to a point
977
00:45:26,247 --> 00:45:29,958
with clients where you can roll and play and kiss and hug
978
00:45:29,959 --> 00:45:32,420
and make love and have sex or whatever
979
00:45:32,421 --> 00:45:35,633
and feel real easy with it all.
980
00:45:35,634 --> 00:45:38,844
INTERVIEWER: Do you think you enjoy sex
981
00:45:38,845 --> 00:45:41,639
when you're with a boyfriend?
982
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:42,432
Yeah.
983
00:45:42,433 --> 00:45:43,974
I... yeah.
984
00:45:43,975 --> 00:45:44,976
I don't think that.
985
00:45:44,976 --> 00:45:45,770
I know that.
986
00:45:45,771 --> 00:45:47,144
I don't do it if I don't enjoy it.
987
00:45:47,145 --> 00:45:49,980
And what is it about it you like?
988
00:45:49,981 --> 00:45:51,525
About sex? INTERVIEWER: Yeah.
989
00:45:51,526 --> 00:45:52,567
The closeness.
990
00:45:52,568 --> 00:45:53,236
The physical feeling.
991
00:45:53,237 --> 00:45:55,988
I like the feeling inside my vagina.
992
00:45:58,826 --> 00:46:02,496
I like the eroticism of thinking of a penis inside me.
993
00:46:18,722 --> 00:46:20,097
So we will, um...
994
00:46:20,098 --> 00:46:23,350
Oh, well, I might as well say, since I said it to...
995
00:46:23,351 --> 00:46:28,606
To, uh... to Michael, and he told me to say
996
00:46:28,607 --> 00:46:30,442
so, but I decided not to...
997
00:46:30,443 --> 00:46:33,028
And you know what I'm going to say, I think.
998
00:46:35,031 --> 00:46:36,406
I am... I am going...
999
00:46:36,407 --> 00:46:38,868
I am certain that I am going to be
1000
00:46:38,869 --> 00:46:43,706
reticent to give up the relationship completely
1001
00:46:43,707 --> 00:46:46,041
at the end.
1002
00:46:46,042 --> 00:46:47,919
Oh.
1003
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,044
I... you know, that caught me off guard.
1004
00:46:49,045 --> 00:46:55,051
Because I guess Michael mentioned it briefly to me.
1005
00:46:55,052 --> 00:46:55,595
JOHN: Mm-hmm.
1006
00:46:55,596 --> 00:46:57,471
Um, talk a little more about that to me.
1007
00:46:57,472 --> 00:46:59,515
Because I mean, you haven't mentioned that to me.
1008
00:46:59,516 --> 00:47:00,725
So it's kind of a secondhand.
1009
00:47:00,726 --> 00:47:02,769
So I'm hearing your conclusion.
1010
00:47:02,770 --> 00:47:05,688
I want to hear some more stuff in the middle.
1011
00:47:05,689 --> 00:47:06,856
I like you.
1012
00:47:06,857 --> 00:47:07,524
I like you very much.
1013
00:47:07,525 --> 00:47:09,067
And I'd like to... You know, I'd like
1014
00:47:09,068 --> 00:47:11,737
to see you outside of this...
1015
00:47:11,738 --> 00:47:13,279
In fact, even now.
1016
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:14,615
But I find that...
1017
00:47:14,616 --> 00:47:18,160
I find that difficult, probably.
1018
00:47:18,161 --> 00:47:22,707
And, uh... and I...
1019
00:47:22,708 --> 00:47:25,083
You know, it's beyond your...
1020
00:47:25,084 --> 00:47:30,841
I'm certain... I have a feeling within me that...
1021
00:47:30,842 --> 00:47:33,804
That the... the...
1022
00:47:37,974 --> 00:47:41,185
The connection I feel between us is...
1023
00:47:41,186 --> 00:47:47,149
Is closer than the client relationship
1024
00:47:47,150 --> 00:47:50,028
that you ordinarily have.
1025
00:47:52,031 --> 00:47:54,116
And that pleases me, and I like it,
1026
00:47:54,117 --> 00:47:58,328
and I'd like to pursue it.
1027
00:47:58,329 --> 00:48:01,290
I'm, of course, afraid to.
1028
00:48:01,291 --> 00:48:02,959
Yeah, it's real scary to.
1029
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,168
Let me talk a little bit about feeling
1030
00:48:04,169 --> 00:48:07,965
like our relationship is closer than the average client
1031
00:48:07,966 --> 00:48:10,132
sort of relationship.
1032
00:48:10,133 --> 00:48:14,680
How I relate to it is how I feel about my therapist.
1033
00:48:14,681 --> 00:48:17,892
I know she likes me better than any of her other clients.
1034
00:48:17,893 --> 00:48:21,436
OK.
1035
00:48:21,437 --> 00:48:23,397
If that's my fantasy, that's fine.
1036
00:48:23,398 --> 00:48:25,943
I've never checked it out in reality.
1037
00:48:29,072 --> 00:48:32,783
Most of my relationships with my clients are very similar to...
1038
00:48:32,784 --> 00:48:34,159
As they are with you.
1039
00:48:40,625 --> 00:48:43,335
When he said... when he thought he was real special to me,
1040
00:48:43,336 --> 00:48:44,880
that we had a special relationship,
1041
00:48:44,881 --> 00:48:48,091
I didn't know if I should not touch that or do.
1042
00:48:48,092 --> 00:48:50,594
But since I don't feel that way about him,
1043
00:48:50,595 --> 00:48:56,142
I'm not even remotely close to him being special, as far as us
1044
00:48:56,143 --> 00:48:57,475
being really nifty together.
1045
00:48:57,476 --> 00:48:59,352
I mean, as far as this whole project,
1046
00:48:59,353 --> 00:49:01,187
what I said was really true.
1047
00:49:01,188 --> 00:49:04,191
And so I didn't want to kind of lead him on.
1048
00:49:04,192 --> 00:49:07,154
I still feel guilty somehow not connecting with him
1049
00:49:07,155 --> 00:49:08,740
as much as I'd like to.
1050
00:49:10,992 --> 00:49:12,618
You feel guilty?
1051
00:49:12,619 --> 00:49:13,869
Yeah.
1052
00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:15,121
As if you're supposed to
1053
00:49:15,122 --> 00:49:16,204
and you're fighting it somehow?
1054
00:49:16,205 --> 00:49:17,206
Like I should be better.
1055
00:49:17,207 --> 00:49:18,917
Like I should be more understanding
1056
00:49:18,918 --> 00:49:26,299
or more sympathetic or more open to his needs.
1057
00:49:28,053 --> 00:49:31,013
But it's not sorry that it didn't happen.
1058
00:49:31,014 --> 00:49:32,932
It's guilty that it didn't happen.
1059
00:49:32,933 --> 00:49:33,558
Yeah.
1060
00:49:33,558 --> 00:49:34,224
It's more guilty.
1061
00:49:34,225 --> 00:49:36,268
It's almost like you dropped the ball.
1062
00:49:36,269 --> 00:49:37,103
Yeah, and I feel...
1063
00:49:37,104 --> 00:49:41,315
I feel kind of bitchy around him.
1064
00:49:41,316 --> 00:49:45,195
I think that's what I felt guilty about, that that's not
1065
00:49:45,196 --> 00:49:48,156
real conducive to being close.
1066
00:49:48,157 --> 00:49:48,616
I don't know.
1067
00:49:48,617 --> 00:49:56,626
I'm... I'm kind of confused about the relationship
1068
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:02,713
I've established with her.
1069
00:50:02,714 --> 00:50:04,092
How so?
1070
00:50:06,343 --> 00:50:08,260
You're thinking an awful lot.
1071
00:50:08,261 --> 00:50:09,262
Yeah, because I...
1072
00:50:09,263 --> 00:50:11,223
I'm finding it difficult to...
1073
00:50:11,224 --> 00:50:14,434
To... to express exactly what I want to say.
1074
00:50:14,435 --> 00:50:19,272
Uh, I feel that there should be somebody in my life
1075
00:50:19,273 --> 00:50:24,238
with whom I have a close physical relationship.
1076
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,282
Sounds reasonable. - Yeah, right.
1077
00:50:28,283 --> 00:50:28,827
And there isn't.
1078
00:50:28,828 --> 00:50:31,203
And right now, Maureen is it.
1079
00:50:31,204 --> 00:50:32,246
Maureen is it.
1080
00:50:32,247 --> 00:50:32,580
Right.
1081
00:50:32,581 --> 00:50:39,129
Her role of surrogate is taking on, realistically,
1082
00:50:39,130 --> 00:50:41,296
the breadth of what it really means.
1083
00:50:41,297 --> 00:50:42,716
She is a surrogate partner.
1084
00:50:42,717 --> 00:50:43,299
JOHN: Uh-huh.
1085
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:45,552
She is not just a surrogate sex partner.
1086
00:50:45,553 --> 00:50:46,220
Right.
1087
00:50:46,221 --> 00:50:51,307
She is a surrogate lover in all the definitions
1088
00:50:51,308 --> 00:50:53,270
of the word or the term.
1089
00:50:54,938 --> 00:50:57,313
And right now, you're beginning to invest
1090
00:50:57,314 --> 00:50:59,567
a lot of your emotions in here.
1091
00:50:59,568 --> 00:51:03,571
I think she's a source of confidence, of reassurance,
1092
00:51:03,572 --> 00:51:08,410
of validation, of recognition, of recreation.
1093
00:51:10,872 --> 00:51:14,250
And as she fills those needs in you,
1094
00:51:14,251 --> 00:51:18,671
you don't need to keep searching for these other...
1095
00:51:18,672 --> 00:51:20,132
From the other sources.
1096
00:51:23,552 --> 00:51:24,220
Yeah.
1097
00:51:24,221 --> 00:51:25,678
But she's not going to be around that long.
1098
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:27,098
JOHN: That's right.
1099
00:51:28,850 --> 00:51:36,858
And I suppose the whole thing could straighten out
1100
00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:40,153
if I meet some other people.
1101
00:51:40,906 --> 00:51:42,739
It could help a lot.
1102
00:51:42,740 --> 00:51:43,364
Yeah.
1103
00:51:43,365 --> 00:51:44,406
That's what I've got to do.
1104
00:51:44,407 --> 00:51:46,034
I like my dad.
1105
00:51:46,035 --> 00:51:48,329
I always... I always brag about my dad.
1106
00:51:48,330 --> 00:51:51,207
He spoils me rotten.
1107
00:51:51,208 --> 00:51:54,752
Gail's hardly around, so he can't spoil her as much.
1108
00:51:54,753 --> 00:51:55,795
Well, he could.
1109
00:51:56,671 --> 00:51:57,464
Just a little.
1110
00:51:57,465 --> 00:51:59,590
No, I'm just kidding.
1111
00:51:59,591 --> 00:52:00,800
But he does.
1112
00:52:00,801 --> 00:52:02,384
Yeah, he's a...
1113
00:52:02,385 --> 00:52:03,262
He's a kid at heart himself.
1114
00:52:03,263 --> 00:52:07,724
Because he's around so many kids all the time.
1115
00:52:07,725 --> 00:52:12,146
He feels young, you know, energetic.
1116
00:52:12,147 --> 00:52:13,189
He is full of life.
1117
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:16,192
And he wants to do all these things.
1118
00:52:16,193 --> 00:52:17,484
He's not interested in, let's say,
1119
00:52:17,485 --> 00:52:20,113
staying at home all the time and just sitting
1120
00:52:20,114 --> 00:52:22,366
in front of the TV like a lot of other people
1121
00:52:22,367 --> 00:52:24,033
his age or whatever.
1122
00:52:24,034 --> 00:52:26,203
But his mistake is, he's trying to reach
1123
00:52:26,204 --> 00:52:29,413
out to the younger generation, because that's how he feels.
1124
00:52:29,414 --> 00:52:33,127
But I feel that, what, instead, he should do
1125
00:52:33,128 --> 00:52:35,754
is reach out for somebody else his own age
1126
00:52:35,755 --> 00:52:37,422
who also feels that way.
1127
00:52:37,423 --> 00:52:38,175
And there should be lots.
1128
00:52:38,176 --> 00:52:40,009
And there's got to be lots of them out there.
1129
00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:43,179
And I don't see... and I really think that is
1130
00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:44,806
a great problem with him.
1131
00:52:44,807 --> 00:52:47,475
Because he's out looking for some younger...
1132
00:52:47,476 --> 00:52:48,186
Right.
1133
00:52:48,187 --> 00:52:50,980
you know, more energetic lady.
1134
00:52:50,981 --> 00:52:52,438
But they aren't looking for him.
1135
00:52:52,439 --> 00:52:53,275
KAREN: No, they aren't.
1136
00:52:53,276 --> 00:52:55,067
That's a cute little... what's that?
1137
00:52:55,068 --> 00:52:55,569
Oh.
1138
00:52:55,569 --> 00:52:56,528
That's, uh...
1139
00:52:56,529 --> 00:53:01,532
I was at LA County Museum of Art yesterday, and that's the pin.
1140
00:53:01,533 --> 00:53:03,368
How was it?
1141
00:53:03,369 --> 00:53:04,451
The museum?
1142
00:53:04,452 --> 00:53:05,329
Yeah.
1143
00:53:05,329 --> 00:53:05,955
It was great.
1144
00:53:05,956 --> 00:53:07,080
The company was wonderful.
1145
00:53:07,081 --> 00:53:08,165
It was really good.
1146
00:53:08,166 --> 00:53:09,708
And who did you go with?
1147
00:53:09,709 --> 00:53:10,710
Lisa!
1148
00:53:10,710 --> 00:53:11,627
Marie.
1149
00:53:11,628 --> 00:53:12,878
Is she from the...
1150
00:53:12,879 --> 00:53:14,462
Institute, yes.
1151
00:53:14,463 --> 00:53:15,048
Very good.
1152
00:53:15,048 --> 00:53:15,841
Well, now tell me about it.
1153
00:53:15,842 --> 00:53:18,551
Uh, it was, uh, a very pleasant time.
1154
00:53:18,552 --> 00:53:21,053
And she's a terrific woman.
1155
00:53:21,054 --> 00:53:25,058
And I'm very happy that I... that I met her.
1156
00:53:25,059 --> 00:53:25,977
That's neat.
1157
00:53:25,978 --> 00:53:27,436
Oh, its great.
1158
00:53:27,437 --> 00:53:29,438
Did you do any touching?
1159
00:53:29,439 --> 00:53:29,898
Oh, god.
1160
00:53:29,899 --> 00:53:34,568
Again, as usual, I kicked myself after it was over.
1161
00:53:34,569 --> 00:53:38,572
It was obvious to me that she would have responded very
1162
00:53:38,573 --> 00:53:42,243
nicely to my taking her hand.
1163
00:53:42,244 --> 00:53:45,788
I know she would have.
1164
00:53:45,789 --> 00:53:47,291
But I wasn't absolutely sure.
1165
00:53:47,292 --> 00:53:54,340
Although I was... there was 99% certainty in my mind,
1166
00:53:54,341 --> 00:53:57,469
there was that little 1% that kept telling me,
1167
00:53:57,470 --> 00:53:58,011
I just don't know.
1168
00:53:58,012 --> 00:53:59,929
Should I or shouldn't I? And I couldn't do it.
1169
00:53:59,930 --> 00:54:03,934
I couldn't get my hand over and take her hand.
1170
00:54:03,935 --> 00:54:06,520
Well, if, next time you go out,
1171
00:54:06,521 --> 00:54:10,065
you still have some anxiety about touching her,
1172
00:54:10,066 --> 00:54:12,151
and you can't bring yourself to touching her...
1173
00:54:12,152 --> 00:54:14,487
And it really would be appropriate to hold hands or
1174
00:54:14,488 --> 00:54:16,530
have a hug or a kiss goodbye...
1175
00:54:18,533 --> 00:54:19,825
Share those feelings with her.
1176
00:54:19,826 --> 00:54:20,868
Tell her?
1177
00:54:20,869 --> 00:54:21,412
Yeah.
1178
00:54:21,413 --> 00:54:27,251
I'm a little scared about, you know, being physical with you.
1179
00:54:27,252 --> 00:54:28,543
You know, how do you feel about that?
1180
00:54:28,544 --> 00:54:29,545
She looked uncomfortable too.
1181
00:54:29,546 --> 00:54:31,546
And I could tell that she was... the same thing
1182
00:54:31,547 --> 00:54:32,965
was going through her mind.
1183
00:54:32,966 --> 00:54:34,549
And perhaps I should share that.
1184
00:54:34,550 --> 00:54:35,511
OK, I'll try.
1185
00:54:35,512 --> 00:54:37,636
I don't know.
1186
00:54:37,637 --> 00:54:41,349
Um, I have notes here. JOHN: Oh, good.
1187
00:54:42,601 --> 00:54:46,146
This book's almost done.
1188
00:54:46,147 --> 00:54:48,148
Focus on Mo first.
1189
00:54:48,149 --> 00:54:51,694
Genitals with lots of feedback.
1190
00:54:51,695 --> 00:54:53,988
Remember not to go that far in.
1191
00:54:53,989 --> 00:54:55,781
Most of the feeling's on the outside.
1192
00:54:55,782 --> 00:54:57,825
What happens when you go in far, I...
1193
00:54:57,826 --> 00:55:04,416
I can feel my body tensing up to defend against, you know...
1194
00:55:04,417 --> 00:55:04,834
Intrusion.
1195
00:55:04,835 --> 00:55:06,251
Yeah, or anything like that.
1196
00:55:06,252 --> 00:55:11,589
And my... my coordination is so lousy...
1197
00:55:11,590 --> 00:55:12,342
What?
1198
00:55:12,343 --> 00:55:13,592
it always has been...
1199
00:55:13,593 --> 00:55:15,678
That trying to do two...
1200
00:55:15,679 --> 00:55:17,596
Well, then we can just do one...
1201
00:55:17,597 --> 00:55:18,181
At once...
1202
00:55:18,182 --> 00:55:20,099
if one works better for you.
1203
00:55:20,100 --> 00:55:20,600
is a problem.
1204
00:55:20,601 --> 00:55:23,811
Well, I have a feeling it's...
1205
00:55:23,812 --> 00:55:26,149
It's a lack of practice.
1206
00:55:30,695 --> 00:55:32,863
Oops, I'm going the wrong way.
1207
00:55:32,864 --> 00:55:34,490
Let's see here.
1208
00:55:34,491 --> 00:55:36,200
Wait, let me... JOHN: Start like this.
1209
00:55:36,201 --> 00:55:37,285
All right. Let's see.
1210
00:55:37,286 --> 00:55:39,038
We start like this.
1211
00:55:42,333 --> 00:55:45,669
And we should kind of just go in and out.
1212
00:56:04,148 --> 00:56:06,775
That's perfect.
1213
00:56:06,776 --> 00:56:11,280
I mean, it took him a long time to get the rhythm.
1214
00:56:11,281 --> 00:56:11,907
And I don't know why.
1215
00:56:11,908 --> 00:56:13,616
And it's not really important. He's got it.
1216
00:56:13,617 --> 00:56:17,661
And now, I think he knows what we're talking about.
1217
00:56:17,662 --> 00:56:21,333
I've never really had to do so much hand-guiding before.
1218
00:56:21,334 --> 00:56:25,003
But you know, that's... that's... That's OK.
1219
00:56:25,004 --> 00:56:26,005
Is it better for you
1220
00:56:26,006 --> 00:56:30,468
when you're working to get turned on?
1221
00:56:30,469 --> 00:56:32,512
Mm, I don't know if it's better.
1222
00:56:32,513 --> 00:56:35,764
It's... it's, in some ways, more enjoyable.
1223
00:56:35,765 --> 00:56:42,855
I'm... I'm happy when I do, that I have the experience
1224
00:56:42,856 --> 00:56:44,566
of experiencing that, and my clients
1225
00:56:44,567 --> 00:56:48,320
have the experience of being with me when I'm turned on.
1226
00:56:48,321 --> 00:56:52,199
It's not really an issue with my clients...
1227
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:57,163
Not as much as an issue as it is with my personal partners.
1228
00:56:57,164 --> 00:56:59,706
It does feel like a real issue here.
1229
00:56:59,707 --> 00:57:03,044
This really is a more profound experience than I'm allowing
1230
00:57:03,045 --> 00:57:05,713
myself to... to... to believe.
1231
00:57:05,714 --> 00:57:08,716
I'm going to be real happy when it's done.
1232
00:57:08,717 --> 00:57:09,177
Here.
1233
00:57:09,178 --> 00:57:11,637
I'm not going to be taking a freight train.
1234
00:57:11,931 --> 00:57:13,222
Well, it's not bad once in a while
1235
00:57:13,223 --> 00:57:17,184
if you get a boxcar that's...
1236
00:57:17,185 --> 00:57:17,978
Or a reefer.
1237
00:57:17,979 --> 00:57:20,230
DON: What do you think of Mo...
1238
00:57:20,231 --> 00:57:20,730
What?
1239
00:57:20,731 --> 00:57:22,190
DON: being a surrogate?
1240
00:57:22,191 --> 00:57:23,732
I mean, do you think she's a hooker?
1241
00:57:23,733 --> 00:57:24,569
Do you think she's a hooker?
1242
00:57:24,570 --> 00:57:26,278
I don't know anything about it,
1243
00:57:26,279 --> 00:57:27,071
if you want to tell the truth.
1244
00:57:27,072 --> 00:57:28,947
But you keep saying that every time we
1245
00:57:28,948 --> 00:57:29,740
tell you what it is.
1246
00:57:29,741 --> 00:57:31,992
I mean, six years later, you're still saying,
1247
00:57:31,993 --> 00:57:33,578
I don't know anything about it. - I really don't know.
1248
00:57:33,579 --> 00:57:35,663
MAUREEN: For something so well read, it's interesting.
1249
00:57:35,664 --> 00:57:38,625
I don't know what the whole field is.
1250
00:57:38,626 --> 00:57:39,917
I do not know.
1251
00:57:39,918 --> 00:57:42,588
A hooker's got nothing to do with Freud.
1252
00:57:42,589 --> 00:57:43,506
I'll tell you what I do.
1253
00:57:43,507 --> 00:57:46,675
I work with men who have sexual dysfunctions as their partner.
1254
00:57:46,676 --> 00:57:49,595
And I practice sex with them, and I practice social skills,
1255
00:57:49,596 --> 00:57:53,765
and I practice communicating, and I practice teaching them
1256
00:57:53,766 --> 00:57:55,311
how to love people.
1257
00:57:57,770 --> 00:57:58,564
So many words.
1258
00:57:58,565 --> 00:58:01,774
I figure if I practice it enough, maybe I'll catch on.
1259
00:58:01,775 --> 00:58:03,109
Yourself.
1260
00:58:05,530 --> 00:58:06,988
DON: Practice makes perfect.
1261
00:58:07,991 --> 00:58:11,952
And I think I do it because I don't know how to love.
1262
00:58:11,953 --> 00:58:14,997
Because I don't think I saw much of it.
1263
00:58:14,998 --> 00:58:17,791
There's got to be a better way than, you know,
1264
00:58:17,792 --> 00:58:19,793
punching somebody in the mouth.
1265
00:58:19,794 --> 00:58:20,588
There's got to be.
1266
00:58:20,589 --> 00:58:22,923
Well... well, I always remember you
1267
00:58:22,924 --> 00:58:26,552
as being pretty much of a good father
1268
00:58:26,553 --> 00:58:27,803
to me when I was younger.
1269
00:58:27,804 --> 00:58:31,390
I mean, you and me had a lot in common.
1270
00:58:31,391 --> 00:58:32,517
We did a lot of things together.
1271
00:58:32,518 --> 00:58:35,394
We did, you know, a lot of fishing trips up north
1272
00:58:35,395 --> 00:58:37,813
and we had a lot of good memories.
1273
00:58:37,814 --> 00:58:41,652
But you know, these bad memories, you know,
1274
00:58:41,653 --> 00:58:44,238
are the ones that keep arising.
1275
00:58:44,239 --> 00:58:44,821
It's like a horse.
1276
00:58:44,822 --> 00:58:46,615
You know, they say you could beat a horse.
1277
00:58:46,616 --> 00:58:48,951
You know, it'll always remember you.
1278
00:58:48,952 --> 00:58:50,077
And even though you never beat...
1279
00:58:50,078 --> 00:58:54,831
You know, you never struck me or you never hit me or anything,
1280
00:58:54,832 --> 00:58:58,419
you know, when you see your father taking his fest
1281
00:58:58,420 --> 00:59:02,840
and fucking just beat the shit out of your mother, you know...
1282
00:59:02,841 --> 00:59:05,843
You know, I'm sorry, Dad, but it's, uh...
1283
00:59:05,844 --> 00:59:07,846
You know, to have your sister, and...
1284
00:59:07,847 --> 00:59:09,306
I mean, me and my sister are so close.
1285
00:59:09,307 --> 00:59:12,560
I mean, that's something that brought us so close together.
1286
00:59:12,561 --> 00:59:14,563
Because we were the only ones we had.
1287
00:59:14,564 --> 00:59:17,275
You didn't know what was going on.
1288
00:59:35,878 --> 00:59:39,673
Don't know where to start.
1289
00:59:39,674 --> 00:59:40,882
I really don't.
1290
00:59:44,220 --> 00:59:48,181
But let's see if we can make certain steps.
1291
00:59:48,182 --> 00:59:50,100
I would, and I don't even know how to start.
1292
00:59:50,101 --> 00:59:57,525
I mean, I feel like a prostitute walking into a Catholic church.
1293
00:59:57,526 --> 00:59:58,737
I'm lost.
1294
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,916
You know, it certainly isn't all your fault.
1295
01:00:12,917 --> 01:00:15,837
And I think I'm still lashing back at all the hurt
1296
01:00:15,838 --> 01:00:20,717
that I felt from when I was a kid.
1297
01:00:20,718 --> 01:00:22,803
And like, today, you make more sense to me
1298
01:00:22,804 --> 01:00:23,928
than I ever heard you say...
1299
01:00:23,929 --> 01:00:24,681
Yeah.
1300
01:00:24,682 --> 01:00:25,932
the last 10 years.
1301
01:00:31,313 --> 01:00:38,737
So we're really dealing here with men and your idea of men,
1302
01:00:38,738 --> 01:00:41,072
particularly your idea of...
1303
01:00:41,073 --> 01:00:45,620
Of... of your relationship with your father.
1304
01:00:48,122 --> 01:00:52,125
Um, he called the other night.
1305
01:00:52,126 --> 01:00:56,339
Why do you think you're thinking about your dad?
1306
01:00:56,340 --> 01:01:00,009
Well, he's drinking again, really bad.
1307
01:01:00,010 --> 01:01:01,177
And I had this really...
1308
01:01:01,178 --> 01:01:04,515
I had a dream about making love with him that's...
1309
01:01:04,516 --> 01:01:06,725
I mean, I know the dream's not about that literally.
1310
01:01:06,726 --> 01:01:09,645
But it's... you know, it's... It's really disturbing to me.
1311
01:01:09,646 --> 01:01:10,689
What do you think that dream
1312
01:01:10,690 --> 01:01:13,775
of making love with your father is really about?
1313
01:01:17,070 --> 01:01:18,905
It's about wanting him to love me.
1314
01:01:18,906 --> 01:01:19,990
RUTH: Mm-hmm.
1315
01:01:22,993 --> 01:01:25,995
If you make love with someone, well,
1316
01:01:25,996 --> 01:01:27,122
it's like internalizing it.
1317
01:01:27,123 --> 01:01:28,999
If I'm going to... you know, like, when you made
1318
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:34,004
this cup of coffee, you put the coffee in, and put it in there,
1319
01:01:34,005 --> 01:01:36,842
and it all got mixed up together,
1320
01:01:36,843 --> 01:01:38,927
you know, then we have coffee.
1321
01:01:38,928 --> 01:01:46,937
And if we put into Maureen the idea of a good father
1322
01:01:47,061 --> 01:01:49,354
and we accept that and it gets mixed up,
1323
01:01:49,355 --> 01:01:55,695
then you have inside of you the whole idea of a good Maureen
1324
01:01:55,696 --> 01:01:58,030
who has power.
1325
01:02:02,704 --> 01:02:04,288
Do you want them to stop?
1326
01:02:04,289 --> 01:02:06,875
No, that's OK.
1327
01:02:15,049 --> 01:02:18,303
That's part of what is the strength of your work,
1328
01:02:18,304 --> 01:02:19,721
you know...
1329
01:02:19,722 --> 01:02:22,892
All the pain that you had, and how you're
1330
01:02:22,893 --> 01:02:29,064
getting richer and fuller, and that you
1331
01:02:29,065 --> 01:02:34,361
know yourself now better.
1332
01:02:34,362 --> 01:02:35,071
I know.
1333
01:02:35,072 --> 01:02:37,199
It makes you who you are.
1334
01:02:39,952 --> 01:02:40,453
Yeah.
1335
01:02:40,454 --> 01:02:44,663
In her surrogate work, I think that she was seeking
1336
01:02:44,665 --> 01:02:47,083
a great deal, and still is.
1337
01:02:47,084 --> 01:02:50,963
At first, I think she was seeking a sexual identity.
1338
01:02:50,964 --> 01:02:53,216
And what better way to learn how to do these things
1339
01:02:53,217 --> 01:02:59,848
than to actually be in a relationship with someone
1340
01:02:59,849 --> 01:03:01,224
in her work?
1341
01:03:01,225 --> 01:03:02,810
Why is a forester a forester?
1342
01:03:02,811 --> 01:03:06,981
I mean, why is a gynecologist a gynecologist, you see?
1343
01:03:06,982 --> 01:03:10,944
Because hopefully, they are working out
1344
01:03:10,945 --> 01:03:13,905
a lot of their own feelings.
1345
01:03:13,906 --> 01:03:17,952
What is that voyeuristic quality of a photographer,
1346
01:03:17,953 --> 01:03:21,120
for instance, and what is the photographer
1347
01:03:21,121 --> 01:03:22,456
having to work out?
1348
01:03:25,209 --> 01:03:27,378
Do you want to talk about ending now?
1349
01:03:27,379 --> 01:03:34,094
I mean, um, I guess not.
1350
01:03:34,095 --> 01:03:37,137
I was going to wait until closer to the end.
1351
01:03:37,138 --> 01:03:39,432
But maybe that's just me avoiding.
1352
01:03:39,433 --> 01:03:40,142
Yeah, right.
1353
01:03:40,143 --> 01:03:42,812
I... I... I don't want to avoid it.
1354
01:03:42,813 --> 01:03:43,814
That's what I was...
1355
01:03:43,815 --> 01:03:51,612
My... my predilection before getting here was to avoid it.
1356
01:03:51,613 --> 01:03:54,408
And, uh... and I don't want to.
1357
01:03:57,369 --> 01:03:59,246
Because I'm going to miss you.
1358
01:04:01,583 --> 01:04:06,295
And that hurt for a little while.
1359
01:04:06,296 --> 01:04:07,213
I don't know, you know...
1360
01:04:07,214 --> 01:04:10,675
What did I do to rationalize the hurt?
1361
01:04:10,676 --> 01:04:13,469
I just convinced myself that other things were OK,
1362
01:04:13,470 --> 01:04:17,099
that I'd gotten a lot out of it, and that, uh, I'm
1363
01:04:17,100 --> 01:04:20,185
pretty happy with myself, generally, these days.
1364
01:04:22,229 --> 01:04:23,982
And I too learned a lot.
1365
01:04:26,735 --> 01:04:30,071
I dealt with you in my own therapy a great deal.
1366
01:04:30,072 --> 01:04:35,994
And I don't know if I talked to you about you
1367
01:04:35,995 --> 01:04:38,705
reminding me of my father.
1368
01:04:38,706 --> 01:04:43,376
I was learning more from you than most...
1369
01:04:43,377 --> 01:04:46,422
Than any client I've had recently... in the last six
1370
01:04:46,423 --> 01:04:47,382
months or a year.
1371
01:04:47,383 --> 01:04:50,468
And this whole thing has brought everything
1372
01:04:50,469 --> 01:04:52,219
right up to the surface.
1373
01:04:52,220 --> 01:04:53,181
And, uh...
1374
01:04:53,181 --> 01:04:53,639
That's great.
1375
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:55,767
I had to examine my feelings.
1376
01:04:59,938 --> 01:05:00,313
So...
1377
01:05:00,314 --> 01:05:03,441
It's taught a lot for me too, of course.
1378
01:05:06,486 --> 01:05:09,822
You know, I feel a lot better about what I'm going into
1379
01:05:09,823 --> 01:05:14,119
and where I'm going from here.
1380
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:15,205
Mm.
1381
01:05:27,009 --> 01:05:27,717
It's over.
1382
01:05:27,718 --> 01:05:30,220
And that's too bad.
1383
01:05:30,221 --> 01:05:31,261
But, uh, it was...
1384
01:05:31,262 --> 01:05:36,351
It was a... a rewarding experience, unquestionably.
1385
01:05:36,352 --> 01:05:38,812
Uh, I've learned an awful lot about myself.
1386
01:05:38,813 --> 01:05:42,191
And I think that's the most important thing that I've done.
1387
01:05:42,192 --> 01:05:45,318
Uh, I came in feeling awful low.
1388
01:05:45,319 --> 01:05:49,241
I'm coming out feeling almost exhilarated.
1389
01:05:49,242 --> 01:05:51,534
How many cases have you seen in your career?
1390
01:05:51,535 --> 01:05:58,750
Probably 200 or 300, if I have 10 a week for 50 weeks,
1391
01:05:58,751 --> 01:05:59,793
and I see them every...
1392
01:05:59,794 --> 01:06:00,294
I don't know.
1393
01:06:00,295 --> 01:06:05,340
I figured out it must be 200 or 300.
1394
01:06:05,341 --> 01:06:09,303
I don't think anything can take the place of experience
1395
01:06:09,304 --> 01:06:10,096
with it.
1396
01:06:10,098 --> 01:06:18,107
Um, I'm not... again, uh, I'm not really the one to say.
1397
01:06:21,234 --> 01:06:22,068
You must have really
1398
01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:25,654
seen a parade of humanity with some people having...
1399
01:06:25,654 --> 01:06:26,614
Oh, god.
1400
01:06:26,614 --> 01:06:27,283
I mean...
1401
01:06:27,283 --> 01:06:28,034
You must have...
1402
01:06:28,035 --> 01:06:30,409
I mean, what have you learned about human nature from this?
1403
01:06:30,410 --> 01:06:34,957
[laughs] That we're all in the same boat.
1404
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:44,258
I'm willing to, you know, push beyond a little bit.
1405
01:06:44,259 --> 01:06:47,344
Yet I'm not sure that's what we need to do.
1406
01:06:47,345 --> 01:06:49,430
You know, anyway, I need to talk to you about it,
1407
01:06:49,431 --> 01:06:53,060
and what you... what your expectations, what you want
1408
01:06:53,061 --> 01:06:53,477
to do today.
1409
01:06:53,478 --> 01:06:55,520
I actually haven't even said what I wanted to do.
1410
01:06:55,521 --> 01:06:57,397
But those are some of the...
1411
01:06:57,398 --> 01:07:02,611
You know, the general concepts of a goodbye session.
1412
01:07:02,612 --> 01:07:03,154
Yeah.
1413
01:07:03,156 --> 01:07:09,827
Well, you know, obviously, I was thinking that I wanted us,
1414
01:07:09,828 --> 01:07:11,162
you know, to have it be different,
1415
01:07:11,163 --> 01:07:13,207
because it's the last session, in some way.
1416
01:07:13,208 --> 01:07:16,376
Um, you know, I'd like to do...
1417
01:07:19,379 --> 01:07:20,631
I don't know... the kinds of things
1418
01:07:20,632 --> 01:07:25,970
that make me feel the most sort of close to somebody,
1419
01:07:25,971 --> 01:07:32,310
in terms of just, you know, emotional warmth or whatever.
1420
01:07:32,311 --> 01:07:33,395
I'm not explaining it well.
1421
01:07:33,396 --> 01:07:38,399
But you know, just, like, you know, something like that.
1422
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,321
MAUREEN: How can we make this setting romantic?
1423
01:07:42,322 --> 01:07:42,906
That's the problem.
1424
01:07:42,907 --> 01:07:45,951
In these circumstances, what do you think would help?
1425
01:09:09,500 --> 01:09:12,502
Kipper, I think therapy's working.
1426
01:09:22,095 --> 01:09:25,724
So how do you feel about the whole therapy?
1427
01:09:25,725 --> 01:09:28,937
I feel really good about it.
1428
01:09:28,938 --> 01:09:30,272
Really good.
1429
01:09:33,401 --> 01:09:35,568
I mean, if you can caress like this half
1430
01:09:35,568 --> 01:09:38,029
the time that you're with somebody,
1431
01:09:38,031 --> 01:09:40,531
I mean, what more could you ask for?
1432
01:09:40,532 --> 01:09:41,493
I mean, this was hot stuff.
1433
01:09:41,493 --> 01:09:44,703
I... [laughs] I mean, this is as good as it ever gets.
1434
01:09:48,584 --> 01:09:50,542
Anything else?
1435
01:09:50,544 --> 01:09:54,339
Well, you know, extremely regretting
1436
01:09:54,340 --> 01:09:55,424
that it's the last session.
1437
01:09:55,425 --> 01:09:59,719
[laughs] And you know, regretting
1438
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:05,101
that I had been resistant so much during the therapy.
1439
01:10:05,102 --> 01:10:10,564
But, um, well, you know, I wish it were just regular sex
1440
01:10:10,565 --> 01:10:11,691
therapy, without them filming.
1441
01:10:11,692 --> 01:10:15,568
But I realize, you know, that that's the price I pay
1442
01:10:15,570 --> 01:10:16,406
for getting such a good deal.
1443
01:10:16,407 --> 01:10:21,202
So I just have to deal with the camera being there.
1444
01:10:21,202 --> 01:10:22,577
But...
1445
01:10:22,579 --> 01:10:23,539
You've done really well.
1446
01:10:23,540 --> 01:10:24,746
And now, you know, especially, yeah,
1447
01:10:24,747 --> 01:10:25,581
these last couple of weeks...
1448
01:10:25,582 --> 01:10:29,002
Like, now, I do think that my body is quite a bit better than
1449
01:10:29,003 --> 01:10:32,088
I used to think, and, you know, that... you know,
1450
01:10:32,089 --> 01:10:36,010
and I'm a lot more confident that, if I'm in a sexual
1451
01:10:36,011 --> 01:10:38,429
relationship, that, you know...
1452
01:10:38,430 --> 01:10:41,932
That, you know, I don't have this performance anxiety
1453
01:10:41,933 --> 01:10:43,476
so much.
1454
01:10:43,477 --> 01:10:44,478
And, uh...
1455
01:10:45,021 --> 01:10:50,900
you know, I'm not worried that I'm, you know,
1456
01:10:50,901 --> 01:10:52,193
impotent or anything or can't get
1457
01:10:52,193 --> 01:10:52,945
it up or anything like that.
1458
01:10:52,945 --> 01:10:53,779
No, I wouldn't think you'd have
1459
01:10:53,779 --> 01:10:54,613
to worry about being impotent.
1460
01:10:54,614 --> 01:10:59,201
[laughs] At least in your words.
1461
01:10:59,202 --> 01:11:00,702
And, uh...
1462
01:11:00,702 --> 01:11:01,662
OK.
1463
01:11:01,662 --> 01:11:02,247
Well...
1464
01:11:02,248 --> 01:11:04,791
Share your feelings. Go slow.
1465
01:11:07,337 --> 01:11:09,629
And risk a little bit.
1466
01:11:21,642 --> 01:11:23,144
Pretty day.
1467
01:11:23,145 --> 01:11:25,772
See ya.
1468
01:11:25,773 --> 01:11:28,649
No, I won't see you.
1469
01:11:28,650 --> 01:11:29,651
Goodbye.
1470
01:11:29,652 --> 01:11:30,736
Goodbye.
1471
01:11:32,614 --> 01:11:36,657
If I can give them the skeleton of lovemaking,
1472
01:11:36,658 --> 01:11:40,913
if I can give them the skeleton of intercourse,
1473
01:11:40,914 --> 01:11:44,041
that is the most that I feel I'm going to accomplish
1474
01:11:44,042 --> 01:11:44,667
with most clients.
1475
01:11:44,668 --> 01:11:47,836
Most of them aren't willing to invest the time or the money
1476
01:11:47,837 --> 01:11:50,548
to continue a relationship to that point,
1477
01:11:50,549 --> 01:11:58,558
to where it is very much like a regular sexual encounter.
1478
01:11:58,682 --> 01:12:01,394
I mean, with my... With my clients,
1479
01:12:01,395 --> 01:12:04,355
they're worried about their cock getting hard.
1480
01:12:04,356 --> 01:12:06,232
That's their primary concern.
1481
01:12:06,233 --> 01:12:09,986
And it's awfully difficult to have them let go of that.
1482
01:12:09,987 --> 01:12:14,491
If I can get them to enjoy having an erection
1483
01:12:14,492 --> 01:12:18,454
and being able to get into a vagina and ejaculate,
1484
01:12:18,455 --> 01:12:19,996
I have done my work.
1485
01:12:19,997 --> 01:12:22,707
What about for you though?
1486
01:12:22,708 --> 01:12:23,960
Well, I can get into the feeling
1487
01:12:23,961 --> 01:12:26,879
of having a penis put inside my vagina and enjoy that.
1488
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:30,716
I don't have to have the rolling and playing and sensuality.
1489
01:12:30,717 --> 01:12:33,262
I'm not going to get that with most of my clients.
1490
01:12:33,263 --> 01:12:34,930
And when you do, what happens?
1491
01:12:34,931 --> 01:12:36,098
That's when I really like it.
1492
01:12:36,099 --> 01:12:38,434
I mean, that's when it's really, really fun.
1493
01:12:38,434 --> 01:12:40,018
That's when I look forward to seeing a client,
1494
01:12:40,019 --> 01:12:43,314
and as soon as they get to the door, I'm jumping on them,
1495
01:12:43,315 --> 01:12:43,940
you know.
1496
01:12:43,940 --> 01:12:44,732
But the other stuff...
1497
01:12:44,733 --> 01:12:47,568
I mean, some people just aren't going to be there.
1498
01:12:47,570 --> 01:12:48,945
And I don't see it as my...
1499
01:12:48,946 --> 01:12:52,741
My role to necessarily force that on them.
1500
01:12:52,742 --> 01:12:54,702
They need to go out there and learn that
1501
01:12:54,702 --> 01:12:56,620
with the woman of their choice.
1502
01:12:56,621 --> 01:12:58,746
I mean, those are special relationships that
1503
01:12:58,747 --> 01:13:01,417
don't happen with everybody.
1504
01:13:01,418 --> 01:13:03,252
You know, there's some chemistry going
1505
01:13:03,253 --> 01:13:04,753
and something kind of magic.
1506
01:13:04,754 --> 01:13:07,089
It happens with more clients than I expect
1507
01:13:07,090 --> 01:13:08,884
it to, to tell the truth.
111281
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