All language subtitles for Death - Hell - Heaven 5 5 Doctrines that Divide, Doug Batchelor.eng(transcribed) (4).eng(transcribed)

hello friends I want to welcome you to

the doctrines that divide series this is

going to be a unique series of meetings

where we're going to explore some of the

doctrinal differences between our

Seventh day Adventist Christian friends

and some of the other Christians from

mainline or evangelical churches in this

evenings presentation we're going to be

talking about a few doctrinal truths

that are a little controversial now in

this series we are talking about some of

the beliefs of seventh-day Adventist

Christians it's as Christian Adventist

they're and then it's as other

Christians and again there are a lot of

dear Christian people seventh-day

Adventist believe in other churches we

freely agree the majority of Christ's

true followers are in the Fellowship of

other churches the seventh-day Adventist

Church does not view itself as a

denomination we view ourselves as a

movement of prophecy into which people

are called from all different walks of

life

indeed the seventh-day Adventist Church

was formed as a coalescing of people

from several denominations that came

together and said let's return to

biblical truth and so that's my appeal

to you during this series I believe

before Jesus comes back he's going to

have a people united in the word his

church is going to truly be of one

Accord and so we're talking about some

of these distinctive doctrinal

differences and in some ways tonight's

subject is going to be more difficult

for some people than others represented

some people shrug when you talk about

the seventh-day Adventist view on the

dietary things they said well you know

that's good for health there's a lot of

science behind it and when we talk about

the the sanctuary and the cleansing they

say well you know that's that's also

very interesting Sabbath well we all

need a day of rest but when you start

talking about what happens when a person

dies people really get very animated

about that and so we're going to be

talking tonight about those subjects of

death hell and then we'll be talking a

little bit about heaven and so once

again if you haven't heard me explain

this before I am wearing this special

suit or this uniform and the purpose of

this is to help you visualize when I'm

on this side I'm representing pastor

Doug and when I'm on this side I'm

representing a figment of my imagination

we're calling him pastor Barney and I

guess I should give you more of a

silhouette here so it's pastor Barney

he's kind of in the white suit and

pastor Doug is over here in the black

suit I'm gonna be arguing from this side

what I believe the biblical positions

are on these subjects as a seventh-day

Adventist I am biased and on this side

I'll be sharing with you what I believed

back before I was a seventh-day

Adventist worshipping and preaching in

churches in the other evangelical

churches and so with that maybe I should

introduce the first point in our study

talking about the subject of death in

particular now if you go to a church

cemetery I remember when I lived in

Texas and there's a lot of churches

there that are Church of Christ Baptist

Methodist churches every little town

used to have a church because they were

all little farming communities

unfortunately in the last 60 70 years

people have migrated to the cities a lot

of these little churches have closed and

sometime is on a Sabbath afternoon I'd

go for a walk with the family in some of

these church cemeteries and just read

the tombstones and it was interesting

that within the same Methodists or

Baptists or Church of Christ cemetery

you would immediately detect there was

confusion on the subject of death you'd

see one tombstone and it would say for

example our beloved father now resting

in Jesus waiting for the resurrection

Trump or something like that then you'd

go look at another

stone it would say our dear mother now

walking on the golden streets and glory

and you're wondering where are they they

weren't too sure a lot of them said

r.i.p what does that stand for rest in

peace and you know so sometimes you

think that means they're resting in

peace others would have beautiful poems

about now in the arms of Jesus and

there's just a lot of confusion about

this subject of death and so with that

quick introduction we're gonna get into

our first question for tonight's

presentation number one are the Dead

awake and conscious now all right we're

gonna let pastor Doug start out with

some of these scriptures and this

represents pretty much the Adventist

position please II ask these nine verse

five and six for the living know that

they will die but the dead know not

anything the dead don't know anything

they know nothing they have no more

reward for the memory of them is

forgotten also their love and their envy

is now perished when they're dead

they're not envying they're not loving

they're not hating or asleep please II

ask these nine verse 10 you just jump

down to the tenth verse same chapter

whatever your hand finds to do do it

with your might for there is no work or

device or knowledge or wisdom in the

grave where you're going people in the

grave have no knowledge they have no

wisdom and you would think the first

thing a person would do if you die and

you go immediately to be with Jesus I'd

be praising the Lord wouldn't you but

here's what King David said in Psalm 115

the dead do not praise the Lord nor any

who go down into silence pastor Doug

I've just got to interrupt you right

there you're reading from the Old

Testament it wasn't until the

resurrection of Jesus that he liberated

all the souls that were in their graves

after the resurrection of Jesus they

went on to glory to be with Christ but

pastor Barney I know I just read from

King David but when you go to Acts

chapter 2

and Peter's preaching his sermon on

Pentecost he said my brethren let me

freely speak about the patriarch David

that he is both dead and buried few

verses later and not ascended to heaven

so even after the resurrection Pentecost

happens 50 days after the Passover and

David still hasn't made it to heaven yet

Peter said that he is dead and buried

and not ascended into heaven but I still

have a verse or two to read on that John

11 verse 11 these things he said after

that he said to them our friend Lazarus

sleeps but I go that I might wake him up

and so in the Bible it speaks of death

as a sleep this is a dreamless sleep and

it's unconscious again you could read

Psalm 146 said put not your trust in

Princes or in the son of man in whom

there is no help in the day that he dies

his breath goes forth and his thoughts

perish so people who are dead are not

plotting vengeance on you they're not

thinking anything they're dead what do

you think pastor Barney well I do have

some thoughts I've got some scriptures

to second Corinthians 5:8 we are

confident yes well please rather to be

absent from the body and to be present

with the Lord

matter of fact in that same chapter

several times it talks about being

absent from the body and being present

with the Lord

I have a thought on that before you go

to your next verse probably ought to

explain that oh I agree with you that to

be absent from this life your next

conscious thought is the presence of the

Lord see because we believe that if

you're a Christian and you die the next

thing that you think of is the

resurrection you have no knowledge at

all it's not even like a restless sleep

it's like a person who has been dead for

five hundred years it's not going to

seem like five hundred years for them or

if you go to sleep after a hard day's

work and then the alarm clock goes off

seven hours later but how long does it

feel to you I heard one time about a man

during World War one who was on the

battlefield he was directing artillery

and in the midst of a very hot battle he

was ready to give the order to fire

he said ready aim and then a mortar

shell exploded very close to him well he

was taken to the local field hospital

they realized that he had a piece of

shrapnel in his head and it was very

serious

they waited to operate until they could

get him to France they took him to her

france and in a hospital there in paris

they performed the surgery and when they

removed the shrapnel he was unconscious

so they didn't use any anesthetic when

they removed the shrapnel from his brain

he jumped and said fire it had basically

just stopped the tape for him I don't

know how that worked but his next

conscious thought was even though it was

a few days after the accident he just

picked up where he left off and so we

believe to be absent from the body

the next conscious thought for the

believer is the presence of the Lord and

keep in mind God lives in all dimensions

of time in other words God is from

everlasting to everlasting and that

means that God can take a profit a

million years backwards in time and show

him a war in heaven not that it was a

million years ago God can take a profit

a thousand years ahead in the future and

give him a three-dimensional picture of

that and so you know God doesn't live in

the same dimension of time so if you're

believer and you die or an unbeliever

your next conscious thought is the

resurrection of the just or the unjust

carry on well thank you very much for

that explanation I do have another verse

or two here it says in Matthew 22 verse

32 I am the God of Abraham the god of

Isaac and the God of Jacob and this is

Jesus speaking I am not the god of the

dead but of the living and so these

people aren't dead they're living there

with Jesus well I agree that they are

living when a person is asleep or they

dead or alive

well yeah they're technically they're

alive well I agree I think when a person

dies in the Lord they're just sleeping

jesus said our friend Lazarus is asleep

and just think about that for a second

friends and this is by the way is in

John chapter 11 the whole story there

how long had Lazarus been dead four days

by the time that Jesus came to resurrect

him

there are about 12 resurrections in the

Bible and I don't know what you think it

would have been like back then but I

know today that if someone had been dead

for four days and they were raised the

next thing that would happen is every

media agency in the world would show up

they would have a whole bouquet of

microphones in front of them and the

first question they would ask is what

was it like when you were dead the

amazing thing about all the

resurrections that are performed in the

Bible there is not one person who

comments on what they saw or experienced

during their death which leads me to

believe maybe they didn't experience

anything

and if Lazarus was dead for four days

think about that let's suppose for a

moment Lazarus was lost and when he died

his next conscious thought was he was in

Hades and then Jesus raised him you

would think that Lazarus would say

something like thank you Lord it was

terribly uncomfortable the pain was

excruciating I'm so glad to be back no

comment

if Lazarus you think after four days

that the shuttle would finally arrive in

heaven if Lazarus had been in heaven and

here he is with his glorified body and

he's talking to the angels and he's

walking and dancing and flying around

the golden city and the golden streets

and reaching out for the Tree of Life

and all of a sudden he finds himself

back in a tomb wrapped up in grave

clothes would you say thank you Jesus

for that no Lazarus makes absolutely no

comment about the resurrection because

he was asleep and that's not my opinion

or my interpretation jesus said our

friend Lazarus is asleep and when they

said all if he's sick and he's asleep

that's good

start feeling better Jesus said no he's

dead so sleep is a word that God uses to

describe death this is not something

seventh-day adventists of manufacture

all right well let's go back to another

point here on the same subject did the

thief on the cross who was saved go to

paradise the same day that Jesus died

master Barney would you like to start

thank you Pastor Doug glad we can be

cordial with each other Luke 23 verse 43

jesus said to him

assuredly I say to you today you will be

with me in paradise

that means jesus promised that thief

right that day that they would be

together in paradise that doesn't mean

that he had to wait for the resurrection

or he had to wait for the Judgment Day

jesus said today today you'll be with me

in paradise what do you think of that

well that is a good point and this is

sometimes difficult to explain to people

because you have to tell them there is

an error in the translation not in the

Bible

in the original Bible there is no

punctuation Bible Translators and by the

way anyone can translate a Bible if you

don't have to be inspired to translate a

Bible you're taking it from one language

and putting it in another language and

some translations are more inspired than

others in my opinion but they had to

decide where do we put the comma in the

King James and most English translations

the way they did it and it was done back

because they were supporting the popular

belief you die and go right to heaven or

hell they wrote it verily I say to you ,

today you'll be with me in paradise but

one reason that's a big problem is if

you read in John chapter 20 verse 17

it's not possible for the thief to be

with Jesus in paradise that same day

because Jesus didn't make it to paradise

that day when Mary went to grab him by

the feet and to worship him he said do

not detain me do not touch me I have not

yet ascended to my father now when was

it that Mary showed

at the tomb and told them that well I'll

be Sunday morning so if Jesus hadn't

made it to heaven yet Sunday morning

then how could he have been with the

thief in paradise

Sunday morning where I'm I meant the

same day I meant the same day well

that's because there's another place

called paradise that is not heaven but

he was with Jesus wherever that place is

the revelation says that his father is

in heaven and that is paradise so he had

not yet ascended to his father and the

father's in paradise Christ did not yet

been to heaven or paradise Jesus was in

the tomb penalty for Anna's sin is death

penalty for sin is not some kind of

trans spiritual migration the thief

could not be with him that day and

there's another reason to doubt the

thief could be with him that day it's

simply because we're not even sure that

they've died that day he was still alive

after Jesus died and they tried to

accelerate their death by breaking their

legs but the Bible doesn't record how

long that took they were hoping that

they died before the Sabbath you

remember and so it doesn't say we don't

even know when he died but a the way to

really look at that just take the comma

put it where it belongs verily I say to

you today the emphasis Jesus is making

is I'm telling you today you've called

me a lord you called me a king and by

the way you notice pastor Barney the

thief said to Jesus when you come into

your kingdom remember me Jesus was

promising him that day I will remember

you when I come into my kingdom he

didn't go to his kingdom that day Bible

says that he receives his kingdom when

he comes back for us so he was

emphasizing today I don't look like a

king he's hanging on the cross today I

don't look like a lord today I don't

look like I can save anybody but I'm

making a promise to you today because

you reached out to me in faith that you

will be with me in paradise I'm

promising you today you will be with me

in

that's what Jesus was saying the

original Greek supports that there was

no punctuation when Luke wrote that it's

only in the Gospel of Luke do not build

a whole doctrine on somebody's placing a

comma who is not necessarily inspired or

holy and I think that's that's actually

a beautiful explanation for that passage

alright let's move along here number

three where does the spirit go at death

pastor Barney please yes he's 12 verse 7

it's good enough for me then the dust

will return to the earth as it was and

the spirit returns to God who gave it

so as soon as a person dies the spirit

goes to be with God well we need to talk

about what these words mean first of all

to understand what that spirit is and

where it goes we need to know something

about how God makes man in the beginning

in Genesis chapter 2 verse 7 when God

first created man it says the Lord God

formed the man from the dust of the

ground and he breathed into his nostrils

the breath of life and man became a

living soul so the combination of that

breath of life and the body that the

Lord had just found framed of Adam then

equaled a living soul the word for

spirit there or is the same word as

breath it's a Hebrew word roja and it

means just breath the breath of life

it's inanimate it doesn't have

personality it is the power the force

that God breathes into all of his

creatures and so the verse that you just

read in Ecclesiastes is saying that when

somebody dies you notice Ecclesiastes

doesn't say good or bad that the body

decomposes and turns back into the dust

of the earth God said Adam dust you are

and unto dust you're gonna return the

spirit or the breath of life the power

of life the essence of life returns to

God who gave it

if we should unplug the power in this

building and all the lights go out don't

try that right now

you'd say where'd the light go well the

light stops being light for us when you

disconnect the carbon filaments with the

electricity it's the two together that

produced the light if I should take some

sticks of wood and some nails and put

them together and make a chair and I'd

say here the combination of those nails

and those sticks we've made a chair but

now I separate the nails

don't try and sit on the chair I

separate the nails from the wood and I

got a pile of sticks here and a pile of

nails here and I ask you where is the

chair well it stops being a chair when

you separate the two the breath of life

and the elements of Earth God animates

it into a living soul when a man good or

bad when an animal good or bad dies the

elements of Earth decompose back into

the dust the power of life the breath of

life returns to God who gave it

let me give you another verse on that

job 27 verse 3 all the while my breath

is in me and the Spirit of God is in my

nostrils now you've heard people say

he's got the spirit in his mind he's got

the spirit in his heart but if I were to

ask you would you like to be spirit

knows filled whoever thinks of your

spirit of god lord please fill our noses

why does it say the Spirit of God was in

my nostrils because the word spirit of

God there means the breath of life was

in my nostrils that is the exact word

that's being used there in Ecclesiastes

chapter 12 verse 7 alright so before I

go to the next point seventh-day

Adventist believe that when a person

dies they sleep in the grave until the

judgment and the resurrection jesus said

rewards are not given until he comes

Matthew 25 when the Son of Man comes in

the glory of the Father with all his

angels he will gather all nations before

him and separate them as a shepherd

separates

sheep from the goats when he comes he

then distributes rewards he doesn't

distribute rewards at death before the

resurrection and before the judgement

this is actually not a new belief

seventh-day adventists known on it it's

a very old belief that has been

influenced lately in the last couple

hundred years by traditions all right

number four but doesn't the Bible say a

man has an immortal soul pastor barney

matthew chapter 10 verse 28 jesus said

do not fear those that kill the body but

they can not kill the soul the soul

cannot be killed

you've got immortal souls that go on

forever and ever

well I'm gonna stop pastor Barney

sometimes I get so caught up in what

he's saying I think I don't want to

convince anybody so I better get back

over here just trying to give you know

the other view you got to read the rest

of the verse pastor jesus said don't

fear those who kill the body but they

cannot kill the soul but rather fear him

Matthew 10:28 second half of that verse

fear Him who is able to destroy both

soul and body in hell so that's I think

pretty clear

matter-of-fact you only find the word

mortal or immortality twice in the Bible

both times it's talking about God when

you're talking about immortality it's

only listed twice in the Bible and

you're gonna find where it says Matthew

I'm sorry in 1st Timothy 6 verse 15 and

16 first Timothy 6 15 and 16 which he

will manifest in his own time he who is

the blessed and the only potentate the

king of kings the Lord of lords who

alone has immortality god alone has

immortality and let me give you one more

this is a short one Ezekiel 18:20 the

idea that you've got an immortal soul

that can't die if this isn't as clear as

any dictionary definition that I

what is the Bible says the Lord says the

soul that sins will die and that takes

us right back to what Jesus said in John

3:16 God so loved the world he gave his

only begotten son that whosoever

believes in Him should not you got two

choices perish but have everlasting life

we've only got two choices perish

everlasting life

matter of fact the first thing that the

first lie that was ever told in the

universe was the devil when he told Eve

God said you disobey you eat the

forbidden fruit you'll die what did the

devil say you won't really die and the

sad thing is that some churches have

taken up the refrain of the devil

telling people that you are immortal

you're going to live forever and ever in

heaven or you're gonna live forever and

ever in hell I do believe in everlasting

separation from God but everlasting

punishment that's another subject we're

about to get to you know there's so much

more I'd like to say on this and I know

I don't have time so what we're doing is

we're going to put a website up it's

very simple

death truth com death truth com even if

you type in truth about death you'll

find the same website a lot of people

asking questions about that especially

just before Halloween death truth calm

and you'll find more information there

all right well then let's talk about the

subject of Hell question number 5 do

lost souls burn forever

all right pastor Barney to me these

scriptures are really powerful pastor

Doug Matthew 18 I'm going to read -

they're similar

I'll be reading Matthew 18 and Mark 9

matthew 18:8 if your hand or foot causes

you to sin cut it off and cast it from

you for it's better for you to enter

into life lamed or maimed rather than

having two hands or two feet to be cast

into everlasting fire mark 9 43 and 44

if your hand causes you to sin cut it

off or it's better for you to enter life

rather than having two hands to go into

hell into the fire that will never be

quenched where the worm doesn't die and

the fire is not quenched tell you what

I'll let you address that before I go to

my next point okay well I believe that

it is true that the fire there in hell

cannot be quenched the word quench is a

verb it means to extinguish by the way

there's a myth out there that

seventh-day Adventist do not believe in

Hellfire I've heard people say that I've

heard preachers say it that is

categorically not true we do believe in

Hellfire we do believe there is a lake

of fire we do believe that the wicked

are all rewarded according to what they

deserve we believe what it says there in

Malachi chapter 4 behold the day comes

that we'll burn as an oven and all the

proud and all that do wickedly shall be

stubble the day that comes shall burn

them up but then you got to keep reading

it will leave them neither root nor

branch says the wicked will be ashes

under the soles of the feet of the

righteous burn uproot burn up branch

there's nothing left when how fire is

burning nobody is quenching it there are

no firemen in Hell trying to spray

things off that means they burn until

they consume and this is what Jesus said

says in Revelation the fire comes down

from God out of heaven Revelation

chapter 20 and consumes them that means

they're devoured there's nothing left

well pastor Doug you say that but I'd

like to have some biblical support for

that passage all right Jeremiah chapter

17 verse 27 it says here Jerusalem would

be destroyed with unquenchable fire you

can just read about that the whole

prophecy there it says the gates would

be burned with unquenchable fire if you

know the rest of your Bible history I

can't go to all the passages the

Babylonians came they conquered the land

of Judea they burn Jerusalem they burn

the gates nobody was there putting it

out but they're not still burning today

are they and then you can read in the

book of Jude

if you want to find out what that

eternal fire is that Jesus was talking

about Jude verse seven can't tell you

what chapter because there's only one

chapter so all Jude has his verses Jude

verse seven Sodom and Gomorrah and the

cities around them in similar manner

have given themselves over to sexual

immorality and gone after strange flesh

they are set forth as an example

suffering the Vengeance of eternal fire

now that eternal fire what it means is

the result of that fire is eternal it's

amazing

Sodom and Gomorrah lived Oh 1800 years

2,000 years before Christ is when those

cities were flourishing and when that

fire rained out from God out of heaven

and burnt them up they were judged and

to this very day you can go to where

that region is it is the lowest point on

earth 1,300 feet below sea level

South End of the Dead Sea it is Badlands

you can't grow anything there it is

under just a curse those cities were

burnt with eternal fire and the Bible

says they are set forth as an example of

what the wicked can expect are they

still burning today why does it call it

eternal or everlasting fire if heaven

forbid my little pulpit here which is

made out of some kind of wood product

should suddenly ignite into flames and I

stood back and we all stood back to

watch and it burned I've never seen a

pulpit quite like that before but I like

it but if it burned up and we didn't

extinguish it that would mean it was

unquenchable suppose we tried mckernon

unquenchable until it burns all up

there's nothing left how many of you

remember that burning bush that Moses

saw it burned and yet it was not

consumed how many believe it's still

burning out there today somewhere but it

was unquenchable at the time so this

would be burn up that pulpit that

particular pulpit is been burnt with

eternal fire because it will never

appear again it is gone forever

it is unquenchable eternal

everlasting destruction it's gone that's

what the Bible says is gonna happen to

the wicked they're burnt up with

everlasting fire all right well I know

I've been monopolizing the time pastor

Barney and you were you were giving

another verse here I have another one

thank you very much

revelation 20 verse 10 this is a tough

one for you it says speaking of the

destruction of the devil the devil who

deceived them was cast into the lake of

fire and brimstone where the beast and

the false prophet are and they'll be

tormented day and night forever and ever

well it's comforting to know that it

especially says that about the devil but

in the Bible the word forever that's

used there in the Greek is the word Aeon

you ever heard someone say well I

haven't seen them in eons an eon is a

long yet unspecified period of time the

term forever is used 56 times in the

Bible where it also denotes a limited

period some examples would be when

Hannah brought young Samuel to the

temple she delivered him to Eli and said

I'm bringing him here so that he can

serve in this temple before the Lord

forever

well he's not still serving there today

is he if you read in the Book of Jonah

chapter 1 tells us that in verse 17

Jonah was three days and three nights in

the belly of the great fish in Jonah's

prayer chapter two verse six he says the

earth with her bars was about me forever

now I suppose that felt like Hades -

Jonah can you imagine what that would

have been like to be it whenever I think

about the story of Jonah and the more I

try to imagine it to be in the digestive

system of this sea monster where if

Jonah is alive it stands to reason that

there could have been something else

that was on the menu that day before or

after Jonah arm he might have had

dessert after Johnny he might have had

appetizers before and so they're in that

sea monster there could have been

stinging jellyfish flashing by

luminescence octopus whales like to eat

squid can you imagine

three days and three nights in that

darkness and the digestive system of

this sea monster would it feel like

forever let's suppose for a moment that

the wicked well just one problem I've

got with the idea that the wicked burned

forever and ever is that would mean that

some teenager who reaches the age of

accountability you pick that age

whatever that age is say it's 15 that

teenager doesn't accept Jesus and they

die lost

according to pastor Barney's belief a

lot of evangelicals as soon as he dies

he's going to go to a lake of fire and

he is going to burn there and ride and

shriek and scream in unimaginable

torment moment after agonizing moment

endlessly hour after hour day after day

week after week screaming burning

shrieking year after year millennium

after millennium and after a million

years have gone by he's only just begun

to burn and he burns as long as Adolf

Hitler according to that belief that's

exactly right

but Jesus said every man is rewarded

according to his works if everybody gets

everlasting fire

then how can everybody get the same fair

reward well there's some things pastor

Doug that we don't understand it's the

mind of God we need to trust the love of

God we need to trust the judges judgment

of God and just don't question those

things well in my Bible he says come now

let us reason together I think that the

Lord wants us to understand these things

and would you agree with me pastor

Barney that Jesus died for the sins of

the whole world and that he paid the

penalty for sin

absolutely.we we agree on that one a

hundred percent so what is the penalty

for sin well you know that you're

dissing it for the benefit of the people

here penalty for sin is death but if the

penalty for sin is death and Jesus paid

that penalty we've got a problem if the

penalty for sin is everlasting torment

in the flames because Jesus died he

suffered and he rose he's not still

burning today so how could he have paid

the penalty for the whole human race if

the penalty is really eternal torment

you got another question I think that's

a good point so the word forever from

the Bible itself is sometimes not always

obviously when God tells us we have

everlasting life and we'll live forever

you read it in its context when it's

talking about the punishment of the

wicked what kind of words are used it

says

consumed perish die says burnt up he

says never will they be any more even

concerning the devil it says I'll bring

forth a fire from the midst of the

Ezekiel 28 and it will consume thee

you'll be a terror and never shalt thou

be any more if anybody deserves to live

forever to burn forever it be the devil

right and he may burn for several days I

don't know

Adolph Hitler Saddam Hussein and there

can be some other despots they may burn

for a while

can you imagine burning 24 hours a week

but no and you know what I'm thankful to

tell you today that an ever growing

number of Christian theologians are a

green recent john stott just passed away

one of the greatest theologians of the

last century

he believed exactly what I'm telling you

today that yes the wicked are punished

there is a lake of fire they do not burn

for ever and ever they are ultimately

annihilated God says I make all things

new there is no more pain or suffering

in the new earth all things are made new

that doesn't mean he's immortalizing

sinners

alright number 6 how do you explain in

the parable pastor Doug of the rich man

and Lazarus now let me read that for you

you turn in your Bibles to Luke chapter

16 beginning with verse 19 there was a

certain rich man who was clothed in

purple and fine linen who fared or

feasted sumptuously every day and there

was a certain beggar named Lazarus full

of sores late at his gate desiring to be

fed with the crumbs that fell from the

rich man's table moreover the dogs came

and licked his sores so the beggar died

and was carried by the angels right away

notice to Abraham's bosom the rich man

also died and he was buried and being in

torments in Hades he lifted up his eyes

and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus

in his bosom and he cried out and he

said father Abraham have mercy on me and

send Lazarus that he might dip the tip

of this finger in water and cool my

tongue for I am tormented in this flame

there you've got it

Lazarus this wicked man selfish man he's

tormented in the flame and he's

conscious during that time but Abraham

said to him son remember that you and

your life time received your good things

and likewise Lazarus evil things but now

he's comforted and you are tormented

besides this between us and you there is

a great gulf fixed so that those who

want to pass from here to you cannot nor

can those from there pass to us then he

said I beg you therefore father that you

would send him to my father's house for

I have five brothers that he might

testify to them lest they also come to

this place of torment

Abraham said to him they have Moses and

the prophets let them hear them he said

no father Abraham but if one went to

them from the dead then they would

repent but he said to them if they do

not hear Moses and the prophets neither

will they be persuaded though one should

rise from the dead

seems pretty clear to me pastor Doug

it's telling us that immediately after

death people are either going to

Abraham's bosom

or they're going to torment alright well

I think the keyword pastor Barney is the

parable of the rich man and Lazarus it's

a parable if you take all the parables

in the Bible literally then you'll

believe the trees talk to each other as

they do in the book of Judges and you'll

believe that people should be sheared

like sheep Jesus used a lot of analogies

to teach a point now you have to ask

yourself and once again don't ever build

the doctrine on one verse this is only

found here in the Gospel of Luke

I believe it's inspired but the message

here is in the last few words Jesus is

using an incredible incongruous polls in

this story he's taking the hero of the

Jewish faith and he says that the

Lazarus this poor man who dies he goes

and by the way it's a Greek name it's

the Greek derivative of Eliezer he goes

and he is in Abraham's bosom so here

you've got the Greek poor beggar who

looks like he's under the curse of God

only cleaning he gets us from the dogs

but he ends up in the Jewish place of

paradise and then you've got the rich

man who you would think would be in

Abraham's bosom he goes to the Greek

place of torment every Jew knew Greek

mythology they had been conquered by

Alexander the Great hundreds of years

earlier they all knew about Pluto the

god of Hades and that dogs of hell and

the whole thing and it was Greek

mythology it's like in the English

language if I should tell you right now

one day Alice was walking in Wonderland

one sentence does everyone know right

away that I'm using an illustration that

you're not to take literally everything

I'm saying when Jesus incorporated these

things he was teaching a parable the

parable was that the Jews should not

think because they were Abraham's

children they were automatically saved

that they might be shocked that others

would be in Abraham's bosom and that

they shouldn't sit with the Gentiles

starving for the truth that they were

feasting on only comfort they got was

from the dogs other Gentiles and here

they were neglecting them and feasting

on the

truth and thinking that we're the

favorite chosen people churches

sometimes do that too so the message of

Jesus is if they don't believe believe

Moses and the prophets they won't be

persuaded though one should rise from

the dead it's a parable who believes

that Abraham's bosom is big enough to

take all the resurrected I mean just

picture that for a moment do you believe

the people in heaven and hell will be

able to talk to each other does anyone

here want to be in heaven talking to

people in torment do we believe that one

drop of water would cool a person's

tongue I mean it would sizzle and

evaporate before you ever got there all

these powerful metaphors to take this

story literally I think is a dangerous

interpretation well pastor Doug if it's

a parable why does he use a real name

there it's all the other parables he

just says this man and that man we're

doing this but here he picks a person's

name it's a real story well that is a

good point pastor Barney but I think

there's a reason Jesus used the name

Lazarus did Jesus raise somebody from

the dead named Lazarus did the religious

leaders choose to believe he said well

father Abraham if someone went to them

from the dead then they'll believe in

repent Jesus said if they believe not

Moses and the prophets then they won't

be persuaded though one should rise from

the dead Jesus greatest miracle was

raising Lazarus who had been dead for

four days and instead of believing they

wanted to kill Lazarus so he

incorporated a name to add intensity to

this parable it is just that a parable

people do not die and go right to heaven

in hell before the resurrection what's

the purpose of the Resurrection the

Bible says the Lord Himself will descend

from heaven and then the dead in Christ

will rise

there'd be no purpose for the

resurrection by the way I do have

another website I'd like to mention big

subject this is one of the most popular

websites you're gonna find on the

internet on this subject got a lot of

good theology very simple hell truth

calm hell truth calm

so next question now we're going to talk

about heaven number seven do we have

physical or spiritual bodies in heaven

pastor Barney take it away first

Corinthians 15 verse 50 now this I say

brethren that flesh and blood cannot

inherit the kingdom of God Bible says

that we are spirits and the Lord is

saving our spirits and so it's the

spirits that go to be with Jesus at

death it's not flesh and blood we're

going to be spiritual creatures flesh

and blood canon here at the kingdom of

God well pastor Barney I also agree with

that verse but I think what Jesus is

telling us is that our new bodies our

glorified bodies will be both tangible

and spiritual when Adam and Eve sinned

and their garments of light went out

they lost the spiritual dimension of

their nature right now there are angels

in this room Jesus said I'm with you

always there's a whole spiritual realm

we cannot see in these heavenly places I

think with the new glorified bodies we

will be able to see all that again now

let me give you some verses here in the

Bible that I think help support that

Romans chapter 8 verse 8 and 9 those who

are in the flesh cannot please God but

you who are not in the flesh but in the

spirit if indeed the Spirit of God

dwells in you

so here when Paul is talking about being

in the flesh or being in the spirit he's

not talking about even heaven he's

talking about those that are in the Lord

our flesh and blood these bodies that we

have now are carnal mortal disease

bodies they cannot inherit the kingdom

of God but we're going to have real

bodies in heaven it says here a couple

more scriptures Luke 24 verse 39 Jesus

when he rose from the dead he had a real

body behold my hands and my feet that it

is I myself

handle me and see for a spirit does not

have flesh and bone as you see that I

have now granted he didn't say flesh and

blood he said flesh and bone but I think

it qualifies that Jesus was emphasizing

I am real and then when they touched him

and they still looked like they were

amazed he said I'm hungry do you have

anything I can eat and several times

after the resurrection when he appeared

to the disciples he ate in front of them

to accentuate he was real again

Philippians 3 verse 21 it said God will

transform our lowly body that it might

be conformed to his glorious body

what kind of bodies will we have same

kind of body that Jesus had it will be a

glorified spiritual body when God made

Adam and Eve they were doing real things

in the kingdom we're going to plant

vineyards and eat the fruit of them

we're gonna build houses and inhabit

them it tells us that we're gonna enjoy

the works of our hands we'll be real

people doing real things and we're not

going to be floating around on clouds

alright number eight on heaven well

people know each other in heaven tell

you what pastor Barney I'm gonna let you

answer that one well thank you Pastor

Doug first Corinthians 13 verse 12 of

course we'll recognize each other in

heaven our powers of discernment are not

going to be less they're going to be

more for now we see in a mirror dimly

but then face to face now I know in part

but then I will know just as I am known

so what do you think of that we agree

I think pastor Barney and pastor Doug

oughta shake hands don't you Huck it

it's going on next one I just wanted

them to be friends before it was all

over I have to live with myself after

this program question number nine can we

be happy in heaven if a loved one is

missing revelation 21 verse 4 and God

will wipe away every tear from their

eyes and there'll be no more death nor

sorrow or crying neither will there be

any more pain for the former things have

passed away you know there may be some

tears and some sadness when Jesus first

comes and we meet him in heaven that's

part of the purpose of the 1,000 years

to answer questions but during that time

if we see someone we love or someone we

cared about is not there we may have

feelings do angels have feelings do

angels rejoice and sing when someone is

saved do angels cry or they grieved when

someone dies unprepared and so there

will be some God does not erase all

sense of emotion from us in heaven does

the Lord and the Holy Spirit have

feelings and sometimes is the Holy

Spirit grieved so you can be sure that

in heaven they're looking on with great

intensity here but don't worry about

going through eternity being unhappy

because you say I could never be happy

in heaven without this person or that

person and you might wonder how you can

ever be comforted but it won't be a

person comforting you it says God

Himself will wipe away their tears I

believe the Lord can do that so

everybody can have that peace and that

happiness in heaven number 10

what encouragement does the Bible offer

me that I can make it to heaven pastor

Barney I think that we could probably

agree on this one you want to go ahead

Thank You pastor Doug by the way

I just want to confess I'm not sure

where to stand to tell you this I have

listened to a lot of preachers and other

evangelical mainline churches I know

they know the Lord I have been moved and

inspired by things they said and some of

their insights into the scripture as

long as it doesn't contradict the Bible

I think there's a lot of truth and I'll

tell you another thing there are a lot

of those ministers out there I have

heard them quote illustrations that I

have given on television on their radio

and television programs that I made up

not the ones that I borrowed from other

preachers happened this week they're

listening and so that's why we do these

programs we need to study together okay

what encouragement pastor Barney does

the Bible offer that I can make it to

heaven with all the struggles of this

life Romans 8 verse 18 the sufferings of

this present time are not worthy to be

compared with the glory that will be

revealed in US and again first

Corinthians 2 verse 9 but as it is

written the eye has not seen or the ear

heard neither has entered into the heart

of man the things that God has prepared

for those that love him you know I've

got some good news for you friends when

you get to the end of the Bible and you

look at the dimensions of the New

Jerusalem

it's 375 miles on each side 1,500 miles

around 12,000 furlongs and biblical

measurements someone calculated that

means that of every individual in the

world gets a hundred square feet that'd

be a little tight but just using that

everybody gets a hundred square feet

that's more than some cities have

there'd be room just in the city for

thirty-nine billion people

that's a lot more that's in the world

today and that means there's room for

you I believe that the Lord is desperate

for his people to get it together I

think that he is called the seventh-day

Adventist movement for such a time as

this to invite people from all faiths to

return to the faith that was delivered

to the Saints the teaching of the Bible

he doesn't want his church divided on

doctrine and he doesn't want us to

abandon truth and say doctrine doesn't

matter when they heard Jesus preach and

teach it says they were amazed at his

doctrine it was his doctrine that turned

the world upside down

don't ever be apologizing for the

doctrine France and sometimes the word

separates and I know well enough that

not everybody is going to believe but

some are gonna hear the Holy Spirit's

gonna speak to their hearts with it's

gonna resonate with them as it did with

me I once went to church with pastor

Barney and then I studied and I heard

these things and it clicked and I said

that's the truth it rings true

there's Bible support and I'll tell you

friends this is why today I'm a Seventh

day Adventist Christian I don't want to

be embarrassed when someone asks the

reason for the hope that is in me I want

to be able to give an answer with

meekness and fear and base it on this

book bottom line is we all want to be

one in Christ Jesus

is the word so that's my invitation for

you friends