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Here, Police investigating
last night's fire
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00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:04,400
at a sex cinema in London
have confirmed
3
00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,280
they're treating the case as murder.
4
00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,840
I really don't think
the fire at the Dream City cinema
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00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,200
is given as much attention
and... and, sort of, sits
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00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,280
in the history of London as an event
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00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,000
of the magnitude that it was.
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00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,240
In general, forensic scientists
do not like to have
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00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:25,680
too much information initially.
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00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,720
We like to work without blinkers,
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00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,320
so we like to go into a scene fresh.
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00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,560
There was certainly a feeling
within the police at the time
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that the incident
had to be dealt with...
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00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:37,800
with a great deal of sensitivity
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in terms of not only dealing
with all the victims' families,
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00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,920
but with the way in which
it was presented in the media,
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00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,400
because this was 1994,
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00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,760
and in 1994, things were
very different in some ways
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to what we see now in the 2020s.
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00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,760
It's hard to imagine in this era,
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the deaths of 11 gay men
in an arson attack, as this was,
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00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,800
would attract so little attention.
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It was a crime
of almost breathtaking...
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00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,320
The man who tried to kill her
will never be free to harm again.
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...targeted young women
unable to defend themselves.
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00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,240
Colin Sutton
was a Detective Chief Inspector
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and senior investigating officer
in the metropolitan police.
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He let the investigations
into some of the most complex
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and high profile cases ever,
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bringing dangerous criminals
to justice.
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He showed his cowardliness...
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Another 146 victims...
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In this series
we will take you inside those cases
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and show you
how we caught these criminals
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using nothing
but pure detective work.
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This is The Real Manhunter.
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Now been found guilty on all 20...
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The officer in charge described it
as a senseless...
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00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,840
The life sentence
may provide some closure
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for his victim's families.
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It was late in February in 1994,
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I was divisional DI at Islington,
I wasn't on call, I was at home.
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It was a Saturday evening.
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And I got a call
from Eddie O'Connell,
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who was my DCI at the time
who only said,
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"Can you come in?
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"We've had a bit of a fire."
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And that was the, you know,
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the biggest understatements
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I think I ever come across
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in my police career.
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I said to him, "I'm not on call,
somebody else is on call,"
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and he said, "No, no,
we need you all in, it's...
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"it's big, it's something
that's gonna need all of us."
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So, I drove into Islington
and the first thing that I remember
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was going into my office,
I actually had a desk
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in the major incident room then
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because of something that
I was doing at the time
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and sitting at my desk
was Tony Conman
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who was the Commander of the area,
and that I thought,
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"Oh, you know, this has got
to be something serious
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if he is out in uniform
on a Saturday night."
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So, I said, "Hello, Sir,
what brings you out
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"at this time of night,
it must be serious."
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I remember him saying,
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00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,160
"I just worried there might be
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"somebody famous like a politician
or something involved in this."
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And at that stage,
I didn't know what the job was,
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but I then quickly found out,
that what'd happened was,
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there was a cinema
on the edge of Smithfield,
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based in,
sort of, the upper three storeys
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of a terraced block
with a shop beneath it.
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And it was a cinema
which specialised
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in pornographic films,
and it had caught fire.
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My name is Bob Williams,
I am a serving firefighter
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00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,880
at a fire station in the UK
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and I've been in the fire
and rescue service now for 32 years.
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The time of call
was approximately 5:35
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on that February afternoon
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00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,600
and the fire crews
normally change crews
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00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,240
at 6:00 so the crews at Shoreditch,
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Barbican, Euston,
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the stations
that were called to the fire,
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00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,400
bells would have gone down.
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The firefighters drop everything,
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00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,600
they get rigged in their fire gear,
they jump on the fire engine,
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00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,400
they are looking at what's known
as a "tip sheet,"
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and that tip sheet
gives you the following information,
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00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,720
nature of the incident
ie, building fire,
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00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,760
full address and whether
there are people involved
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00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:37,040
and any other information
that may be needed,
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00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,640
whether there is a problem
with gas or whatever.
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The fire crews would have
turned out the fire stations.
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00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,560
It was all hands to the pumps,
you know, every spare officer,
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00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,120
every officer that could be
dragged in from home
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00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,480
from the detective force
at Islington Division,
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00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,440
was called in to deal with it.
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00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:54,480
In that era,
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00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,320
you would have
the old radio hams
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00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,680
listening in,
very often retired old boys
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00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,200
who would be up in their lofts
listening to all kinds of things.
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00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,920
If they heard about
a major crime
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00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,760
or incident happening,
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they'd be on
to the national newspapers.
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Number of fire brigades,
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00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:13,760
fire attenders,
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00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:15,320
the police, ambulance.
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00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,840
The ear-wiggers would have been
all over that and that's how,
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00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,080
you know, the media would have,
um, been first alerted.
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00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,560
When the first fire engine turns up,
the first fire appliance,
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00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,200
the officer in charge
will be looking
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00:05:30,280 --> 00:05:34,360
at several different areas
on fire spread,
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00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,160
possible rescues
that we can carry out quickly,
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00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,080
water supplies,
cordoning the area off,
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00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,480
bearing in mind as they pulled up
in St John Street,
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they would have seen
a lot of smoke, a lot of flames.
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Very few people are aware
that here in St John Street,
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00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,320
on the edge of the City of London,
in February 1994,
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a mass murder took place,
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and what had happened
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00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,880
was that down there
at number 7 St John Street,
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00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,760
there had been a fire.
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00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:09,440
The fire was in a cinema,
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00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,520
a cinema specialising
in pornographic films.
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00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,120
I was a senior forensic scientist
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00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,680
at the Met Police
Forensic Science Laboratory.
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00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,840
So, on this particular night,
I was contacted by a pager,
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00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,000
I responded to that,
to find that there had been a fire
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00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,640
in St John Street, near the city.
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I responded to the call
and I think I arrived
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at the scene around about midnight,
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to find a very large fire.
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I was briefed by the fire service
and by the police
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00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,120
who were already there.
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00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,520
They'd clearly already found
a number of bodies
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and were already suspicious
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00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,040
about the potential
cause of the fire.
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00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,040
Here, police investigating
last night's fire
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at a sex cinema in London
have confirmed
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00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:55,240
they're treating the case as murder,
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00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,160
eight people were killed
and 16 seriously injured
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00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,160
when fire swept through
the four-storey building.
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They would see a number of people
collapsed on the pavement
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00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,000
due to the fact that they had jumped
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00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,680
from the second
and third floor windows,
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00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,240
they would have fractures,
they would have dislocations,
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00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:15,640
they would be in a right state
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and absolute mayhem
on that evening,
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people lost their lives.
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00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,200
The fire had occurred
in what appeared to be a shop
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at ground floor level
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but that hadn't actually
been involved in the fire,
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because the door next to that shop
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was actually the entrance
to the Dream City facility
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as I later found out.
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That door opened directly
to a very small hallway
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and a staircase leading immediately
up to the three upper floors.
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Mayhem was going on,
so as the officer in charge,
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you would have to stand back
and make the decisions on,
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we need more resources,
we need a TL
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00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,120
which is a turntable ladder,
with a hydraulic platform,
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which is a great platform
for carrying out rescues
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and pointing jets into the window.
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Then the decision has to be made
on attacking the fire
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and carrying out necessary rescues.
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00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,040
It seems to me the building
was a very old building,
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built in around 1910,
it was a grade two listed building,
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due to the very nature
of the activities
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that were going on there,
it was very much very undercover
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and the fire protection
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that would be used nowadays,
in 1994,
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wasn't quite up to standard.
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So, regarding fire doors,
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they would be missing
fire compartmentation,
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fire extinguishers.
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I understand the fire doors
were wedged open.
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As we learn more
about what had gone on,
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it proved that the incident
was more complex
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than we might even
first have thought.
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It had no fire certificate
and no means of an exit
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for the scores of men
that found themselves trapped
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in the inferno.
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There was no formal inspection
because it was an illegal premise.
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00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,480
When you think about an act
called the 'Furnishings Act'
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that came around in about 1988/1989
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and the Furnishing Act
for cinemas etcetera,
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them seats were highly flammable.
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Once they started getting
treated by heat,
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the flammable gasses would
have come up from the seats
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00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,520
and created quite
an explosive atmosphere.
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On entry, that hallway
was extensively burnt.
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And then moving up the staircase,
I found that the fire had spread
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right up the building,
up the staircase
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to involve the upper floors
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and in general, it had gone upwards
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which is what we tend
to find in fires,
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that the smoke, flames,
potentially the hot gases,
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00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,280
tend to move upwards
and we call it the chimney effect.
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00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,080
So, it's why people generally
get trapped upstairs in fires.
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00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,280
The intervening floors, very often,
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especially if doors are closed,
don't become involved,
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00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,720
particularly not at an early stage.
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00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,080
I believe that it was possibly
a gas explosion at that incident,
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00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,480
because you had
a small thin lobby area,
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00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,120
then you had a staircase
to the first floor,
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00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,800
first floor staircase
is to the second floor,
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00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,040
second floor staircase
is to the third floor.
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00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:26,960
That wouldn't have been protected.
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00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,320
The doors were wedged open
and/or locked.
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00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,080
You would have got unburnt gases
floating into there
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00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,840
and it would have been
an explosive atmosphere.
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00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,600
Looking at the fire damage etcetera,
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00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:45,520
that it was a fire gas explosion
at that property.
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00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,080
However, in this fire,
I believe it was on the first floor,
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00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,440
one of the fire doors
was actually wedged open
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00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:52,600
with a fire extinguisher,
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00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:54,960
so the fire had actually
spread into that area
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00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,240
and I believe that was where
the five bodies were found.
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00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,680
They were still in situ
when I arrived
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00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,440
and the first thing we tend to do
is try to deal with the bodies,
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00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,880
examine them in detail,
we bag them up.
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00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,760
And we get undertakers to remove
the bodies at that stage,
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00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,120
so that we can then move on to look
at the fire in general
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00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,400
and the forensic evidence
that might be in situ.
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00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:24,040
It was known at that point that
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00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,120
there were fatalities,
more than one,
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00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,120
but that also there were
a number of injured
228
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,280
who had been taken to hospital
and who...
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00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,040
it was really thought,
might not make it.
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00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,280
So, the worry was,
that it wasn't gonna be
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00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,640
one or two deaths,
it was gonna be half a dozen,
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00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,920
or maybe even more.
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00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,240
Colin Sutton was there
on the night of the fire,
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00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:48,640
when I arrived
235
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,360
and at least when I finished
my preliminary examination
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00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,680
of the scene that night.
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00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:59,080
I gave him a verbal debrief
of to what I'd found,
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00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,760
what I believed
was the cause of the fire
239
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,520
and why the people
have been trapped upstairs.
240
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,000
Some of the windows
were actually boarded up,
241
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,520
to hide the illegal activities
that were going on.
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00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,200
So, they couldn't just
hang out the window anyway.
243
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,920
And unfortunately,
in a situation like that
244
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,440
where you have a hell
of a lot of smoke
245
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,040
coming up in a chimney effect,
246
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,360
up the stairs and going on
to the adjacent rooms
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00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,520
because the doors were wedged open.
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00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,560
A lot of them
would have unfortunately
249
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,640
succumb to smoke inhalation
250
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,400
and three or four lungfuls
of thick black,
251
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,880
acrid, carcinogenic smoke
252
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,760
would normally cause a person
to collapse,
253
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,320
and then as the fire come up
254
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:51,760
and the unburnt gases
started igniting,
255
00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:53,760
they would be deceased.
256
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,480
It was like a furniture lorry
that was delivering nearby,
257
00:12:58,560 --> 00:12:59,680
they saw what was happening
258
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,600
and the driver manoeuvred it
quite bravely, a burning building,
259
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,080
so that people could come
out of the windows
260
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,640
onto the top of his lorry
and escape.
261
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,080
From the minute it started,
262
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,520
to the minute I walked down
263
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:12,560
to my vehicle,
264
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:14,200
it was only about four minutes,
265
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,160
it went up very quick,
266
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,520
very quick...
267
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,200
it just literally... went up.
268
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,320
Well, it's clear
that some of the people in this case
269
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,680
actually died from their injuries
jumping from the upper floors
270
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,760
which is where
the illegal cinema was.
271
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,520
But the people that had been
trapped within the premises
272
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,040
had by-and-large,
suffered from smoke inhalation.
273
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,360
And this is very often
the case in fires,
274
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,520
very few people actually
die of burns in fires,
275
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:48,480
probably 95% plus of fire fatalities
are due to the toxic fumes
276
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,400
and the hot gases produced
by the fire.
277
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,200
So, you will either breathe in
very hot gases
278
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,560
which scorch the airways
279
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,640
and therefore
effectively suffocates you
280
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:02,760
or you will breathe in noxious fumes
281
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,680
such as carbon monoxide
or hydrogen cyanide
282
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,440
which are highly toxic
283
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,320
and once they get
into the blood stream,
284
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,400
can very quickly kill you.
285
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,040
So, the people that had succumbed
within the premises
286
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,880
had all died from the smoke
that had spread upstairs.
287
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,480
It must have been, you know,
absolutely horrific experience
288
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,080
to be in this place and trapped,
289
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,760
you know, the flames
are coming up the stairs,
290
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,840
there is no other way out,
what do you do?
291
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,840
The fire service would work
with the forensic services
292
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,960
and the police
for further investigation.
293
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,600
In general, the police
and fire service work together
294
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,840
when there is a fire,
particularly one that's suspicious
295
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,760
or involving fatalities.
296
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,000
But as soon as a fire is deemed
to be suspicious,
297
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,600
then it's handed over to the police
for a full investigation.
298
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,720
And that's generally
where a forensic scientist
299
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:54,920
would become involved.
300
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,920
The trouble is, when a premises
is completely unlicensed,
301
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,680
then there is no incentive
for those who run it
302
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,320
to operate within any rules
or to any laws.
303
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,840
The local councils say that the club
304
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,040
was not registered with them
as a cinema
305
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,440
but would have required a license
if members of the public
306
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,640
were paying to watch films.
307
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,120
The high death toll has inevitably
focused attention
308
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,680
on safety precautions
at private clubs,
309
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,920
but experts say
it's impossible legislate
310
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,320
against a determined arson attack.
311
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,800
Because they simply
don't have a license,
312
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,160
so it's simply a completely
rogue establishment
313
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,480
and that's what this was
314
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,200
and that's why the fire exits
were not sufficient
315
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,640
and why they're was so difficult
for the people inside to get out
316
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:37,840
and away from the fire
317
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,480
and to a degree difficult
for fire brigade
318
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,920
to get in to fight the blaze.
319
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,000
how many licks of paint
did they put on there?
320
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,920
How many layers of wallpaper
did they put?
321
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,080
So there would have been that,
322
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:53,800
they said there was lino
on the floor.
323
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,680
What probably happened
was there was about four layers
324
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:57,760
of lino on the floor
325
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,320
because they didn't bother
ripping it up,
326
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:00,600
they just put it on there.
327
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,640
It's called "Pyrolysis,"
where you get the decomposition
328
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,240
of paint or a sofa,
329
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,000
when it's subjected
to extensive heat,
330
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,520
flammable gases come up,
poisonous flammable gases come up
331
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,040
and you can't see them,
332
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,880
and they all go up
into the ceiling level,
333
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,520
hence sometimes
when you enter a compartment,
334
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,960
you have got 'dancing angels'
on the ceiling,
335
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,520
flames on the ceiling
336
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,600
which is a part
of the flammable gases.
337
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,680
You had people choosing
whether to stay
338
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,000
in a burning smoke-filled room
339
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,240
or jump out
of a second-floor window.
340
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:40,880
Those sort of choices...
341
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,280
just imagine the terror,
and the fear
342
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,920
that's going through people's minds
343
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,240
as they are trying to make
that decision quickly
344
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:49,680
under pressure,
345
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,480
damned if you do
and damned if you don't.
346
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:56,160
There was one detail I remember
of someone managing to survive
347
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,320
by finding a gap in the floorboard,
348
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,520
putting his mouth
and nose over that gap
349
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,640
to try and breathe in clean air,
and that saved his life,
350
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,760
it was lucky for him,
quick thinking
351
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,960
but for the majority
of the men who died,
352
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,040
there was no escape from what must
have been the fire from hell.
353
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:17,880
The cinema showed gay porn
in some sessions
354
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,480
and it was during
one of those sessions
355
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,360
that the fire had taken place,
356
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,720
this was the reason
for the Commander being out.
357
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,200
The worry was that at that time,
358
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,960
there could have been
a huge embarrassment,
359
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,640
somebody say from a judiciary
or the government
360
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,880
who might have been involved
in what went on there.
361
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,560
Fortunately, that wasn't the case,
362
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,960
so we didn't have
that added dimension
363
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,440
to the investigation,
364
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,920
but we still had nearly
two dozen victims
365
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,200
either dead or critically injured
that needed dealing with,
366
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,280
needed identifying
367
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:50,920
and who's families
needed to be informed
368
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,400
and, of course,
there was this sensitivity
369
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,200
because of the nature of the event,
370
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,720
around informing
their families as well.
371
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,920
One of our first tasks was to find
372
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,520
exactly where
they were being treated
373
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,960
because there were so many
from the one incident,
374
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,360
they had been taken to hospitals
across the London area.
375
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,400
Initially,
any fire scene investigation
376
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,120
would entail an external examination
of the premises,
377
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,000
really to determine
whether it's safe to go inside,
378
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,600
because fire scenes are inherently
rather unsafe places to be.
379
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,360
But we took advice
also from the fire service
380
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,080
who had already entered
381
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,560
and donning the appropriate
protective equipment
382
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,840
such as boots and hard hats,
383
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,840
we entered to find that the fire
appeared to have started
384
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,800
fairly low down
and had spread up the staircase.
385
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,800
So, my initial thoughts
were we needed
386
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,960
to cordon off the hallway
at the ground floor entrance
387
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,400
and to undertake a very quick,
388
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,560
very immediate detailed examination
389
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,400
of the hallway
which is what we did.
390
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,240
So, all entrance
to the building after that
391
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,800
was via a ladder up
to the first floor.
392
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,880
So, on examining the hallway,
we found there was
393
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,760
very low-level damage and burning
to the hall floor,
394
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,640
and the door itself,
which was timber,
395
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,880
was very deeply charred.
396
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,320
On clearing that flooring,
it appeared to consist
397
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,880
of numerous layers of old lino
398
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,400
and on removing those
charred of layers of lino,
399
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,280
we got a very strong smell
of petrol.
400
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:31,080
Indeed, on digging in the corner
of the hallway
401
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,480
right next to the opening door,
402
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,720
we found a melted piece
of red plastic
403
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,960
which when we prized it
from the floor,
404
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,760
turned out to be
a melted petrol container
405
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,360
and that was the first piece
of evidence
406
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,200
that we uncovered.
407
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,480
Now the skill of a fire investigator
408
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,600
is although the fire
was on four floors
409
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,440
and contained numerous bodies,
lots of burning in different areas,
410
00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,120
the skill is to use ones knowledge,
training and experience
411
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,320
to hone it down to a small area
which I did very quickly.
412
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,480
And I was able to determine
that the fire had started
413
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,240
in that hallway,
414
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,520
we very quickly examined that area
and found the petrol,
415
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,600
so I was able to brief the police,
including Colin
416
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,400
that the fire appeared
to be very deliberate
417
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,400
and a very determined act
to start a fire in that building.
418
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,080
It was a really
difficult time that night,
419
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,880
driving around essentially
most of the casualty departments
420
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,480
in North and East London
421
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,600
and even out to Billericay
to the burns unit.
422
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,720
Meeting people who were telling us
423
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,800
how terrified they'd been,
424
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,800
how they had feared for their lives
425
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,400
and jumped from windows,
426
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,240
struggled through burning...
427
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:54,560
a burning building,
428
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,160
the panic that was there
429
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:57,880
amongst all the people that were
430
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,680
in the cinema at the time.
431
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:00,920
It was kind of...
432
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,440
You know, one man said it was
433
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,720
every man for himself in there,
434
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,320
you know, people were walking
over other people
435
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,760
to try to get out
436
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,560
because they knew
437
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:12,920
if they didn't get out
of that building,
438
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,400
they were going to die.
439
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,000
Across the 11 victims
and the other men who were injured,
440
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,240
so all the victims of this crime,
441
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,400
there was a real cross section
of society.
442
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,080
Their age ranges from their 20s
to their 60s, we had engineers,
443
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,720
we had white collar workers,
we had single people,
444
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,680
we had out gay people,
we had people who were married
445
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,560
and weren't out,
it was a real cross section.
446
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,520
The fact that they were
in an unlicensed sex cinema
447
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:50,520
and watching pornographic films
just wasn't an issue,
448
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,200
they realised it wasn't an issue
and we realised it wasn't an issue,
449
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,880
we were dealing with something
much more serious than that.
450
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,640
People who died
of burns particularly
451
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,440
more than smoke inhalation,
they can kind of present as OK
452
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:03,960
and it looks
as if they are going to...
453
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,560
they are going to live and survive
and then the damage to their body,
454
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,320
sort of, catches up with them
and overnight, they were dead.
455
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,960
So, I ended up
at St Pancras mortuary
456
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,560
on the Sunday morning
and we had two pathologists,
457
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,200
two slabs, two photographers,
two scenes of crime officers
458
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,840
and we did all 11 post mortems
in one day.
459
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,240
Not all of the men
460
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:30,480
had identification
on them,
461
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:31,800
it took us some while.
462
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,040
One of them
we didn't identify
463
00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:34,480
for a couple of weeks
I think.
464
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,320
Mostly, we found out who they were,
because this was 1994
465
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,960
and gay men couldn't be
as open about their life
466
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,440
and their sexuality in those days,
that's just how things sadly were.
467
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,280
In those days,
there was no question of DNA,
468
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,280
so post mortem examinations
could be carried out quite quickly,
469
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:57,120
it wouldn't be possible these days
to do 11 in one day
470
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,840
even with two running in parallel.
471
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,840
But it was a kind
of a surreal experience
472
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,200
in many ways, you know,
473
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,600
you get used to dealing
with death eventually,
474
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,560
but this was really the beginning
of my career as a murder detective
475
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,680
and to have so much of it
in one place at one time.
476
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,080
And, you know, these were just men
477
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,560
that had been out
on a Saturday evening
478
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,160
for entertainment,
479
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,720
and they ended up having
to throw themselves
480
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,720
out of a building and died
or died of smoke inhalation.
481
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,320
So, it was pretty sombre
kind of atmosphere doing that.
482
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,840
It was quite unusual,
when I went to do that day's duty,
483
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,120
I knew it was gonna be unpleasant,
484
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,080
and I deliberately put
on an old pair of jeans
485
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,000
and an old jumper.
486
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,880
And after we'd done
these 11 post mortems,
487
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,520
the clothes had the stench of death,
the smell of the fire on them.
488
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,080
I knew that no matter
how many times I washed them,
489
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,960
they'd still have that smell,
I'd know it was there,
490
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,600
I'd think it was there
even if it really wasn't.
491
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,960
They would always be a reminder
of that particularly harrowing day.
492
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,240
It was the only time
I ever did this,
493
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:57,960
but as soon as I got home,
I took the clothes off
494
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,360
and they went straight in the bin.
495
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,640
It was far beyond what even,
sort of, hardened detectives
496
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,560
and hardened police officers
were used to,
497
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,600
this scale of death in...in...
498
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,960
in one incident like this.
499
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,880
And what made it even more,
sort of, poignant for us I suppose,
500
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,800
was that myself and another officer
went around to the hospitals
501
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280
and people had been taken
to hospitals all over London
502
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,160
and slightly beyond
503
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,360
and we were trying to do
a headcount really of victims
504
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,960
and of people who were injured
and who had died.
505
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,000
And a lot of the deaths
were still alive
506
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,520
that Saturday evening,
507
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,800
a lot of the people who died,
took some hours to die
508
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,280
and were conscious,
and we were talking to them.
509
00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:52,040
And then when we finally finished
some early hours in the morning,
510
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,760
and had a few hours' sleep
and came back again,
511
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,800
we came back to the news
that those people we had been
512
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,560
sitting at the bedside talking
to just a few hours before had died.
513
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,120
And that's also something
that you don't often encounter
514
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,160
as a murder detective,
515
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,880
because normally by the time
you arrive,
516
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,400
the deed has been done
and somebody has already died.
517
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,360
And it certainly had, you know,
my colleague at the time,
518
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,960
it had a real effect on him,
he found it really difficult
519
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,160
to cope with work afterwards
520
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,480
and he didn't stay much longer
in the police service.
521
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720
Because I was able to determine
the apparent cause
522
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,120
of the fire very quickly,
523
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800
the police were then able
to act very quickly.
524
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,800
The trail as far
as the forensic evidence went,
525
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,320
was fairly cold.
526
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,520
I could tell the police
what caused the fire,
527
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,960
I could tell them
it was a petrol container,
528
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,440
but that container was far
too badly damaged
529
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,560
to get any finger prints
or other forensic evidence from,
530
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,480
it was just almost
completely melted.
531
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,520
So, from the prospective
of something at the scene
532
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,240
linking us to the suspect
or the perpetrator,
533
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:01,760
it was probably
gonna be very difficult
534
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,120
to actually identify anybody
who had been involved in that fire.
535
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,040
It turned out that there was
a member of the cinema club
536
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,000
who was known as 'Deaf Dave',
he was deaf-mute.
537
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,080
And he'd turned up
on this Saturday evening
538
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,520
and asked to come in
and had had a bit of a,
539
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,920
sort of a, an altercation
540
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,160
with the person on the box office
541
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,560
who said, "It's gay films
542
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,840
"at the moment that's showing,
543
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,240
"you know,
you probably won't like it,
544
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,400
"it's not what you
normally come for."
545
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,240
And I don't think he understood,
and there was a big of an argument,
546
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,120
he thought they weren't
honouring his membership
547
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,320
and there was a bouncer
of sorts there
548
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,320
and there's a bit of an altercation
with the bouncer
549
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,480
and it might even be that
the bouncer has assaulted him.
550
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,520
In a temper and being drunk,
551
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,440
he'd gone off
and got himself a can of petrol,
552
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,440
returned to the cinema,
553
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,080
tipped the petrol over the entrance
and the stairwell inside
554
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,240
in the lobby area,
then set fire to the place
555
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,520
and as he left,
he discarded the petrol can.
556
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,520
Managed to somehow
pop open the front door
557
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,840
to these premises
and that had the effect
558
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,960
of allowing the wind and oxygen
to come in
559
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,600
and accelerate the flames
and within moments,
560
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,160
within seconds literally
the building was going up in flames.
561
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,360
The people upstairs watching films
had no idea what was happening,
562
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,840
the perilous situation they were in.
563
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,520
And by the time the fire took hold,
it was too late
564
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,560
for virtually all of them
to make their escape.
565
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,360
So, having found
the petrol container,
566
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,200
they immediately canvassed
all the local gas stations
567
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520
to see if anyone
had bought a container
568
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,440
and a small amount of petrol.
569
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,640
What I would appeal for is anybody
that saw a man
570
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,880
carrying a petrol can
similar to this one here,
571
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,160
which is a plastic can,
572
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,920
which would carry
about five litres of petrol,
573
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,600
and anybody that saw that man
walking towards the premises
574
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,840
in St John's Street at about 5.30
on Saturday evening.
575
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,640
CCTV at the local
Texaco petrol station
576
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,160
showed a man coming in
and buying a can
577
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,200
and a gallon of petrol
at just about the right time,
578
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,880
about, sort of, 20 minutes after
579
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,000
the incident had happened
with the...
580
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,360
the argument with the bouncer
and person
581
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,400
who was at the ticket office.
582
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,160
So, it was...
clearly that was a man
583
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,600
and although the club itself
584
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,280
didn't have particularly
good records
585
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,440
of its membership,
586
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,720
again because it didn't have to
because it wasn't licensed.
587
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,120
It didn't take very long
588
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,400
for inquiries to establish
589
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:50,720
that this was David Lauwers.
590
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,480
He was quite
an interesting character,
591
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,840
he was a tailors cutter,
592
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,320
obviously he had this disability
593
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,480
of his hearing and speech,
594
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,320
he had originally
come from Scotland,
595
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,120
he'd settled in... in North London
596
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,240
and he had
a few previous convictions,
597
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,400
they weren't for anything major,
598
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:11,800
although interestingly one of them
599
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,320
was for causing criminal damage
600
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,080
and when it was looked into,
601
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:17,760
he caused that criminal damage
602
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:18,960
by fire.
603
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,200
It's hard to imagine
that 11 people could die
604
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,840
in a cinema fire
605
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,520
which had been deliberately started
by someone
606
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,280
and there not being
a massive public outrage.
607
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,960
There was far more publicity
about the Deptford fire
608
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,000
than there ever was about the fire
at the Dream City cinema
609
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,440
in Clerkenwell,
610
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,240
I think we published
on the front page,
611
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:48,400
the following day.
612
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,520
If this happened in a local cinema
where 11 members of the public
613
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,160
died as a result
of smoke inhalation,
614
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,360
burns or whatever,
it would be huge news
615
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,400
and it would dominate the papers
for days on end.
616
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,840
People would want to know
who was there,
617
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,120
people would want to know
all about the offender
618
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,360
and certainly the trigger point
that drove them to setting
619
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,680
alight to the cinema.
620
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,680
I think that the case
would be followed in great detail,
621
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,720
yet in this instance
there was very little publicity
622
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,800
in terms of the effect
of what happened
623
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,160
and the devastating consequences
624
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,320
to the families
of all those victims,
625
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,440
was this because the men were gay?
626
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,840
That they were attending
a gay cinema?
627
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,920
How many of those men,
how many of the victims
628
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,040
were out at the time?
629
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,920
You know, I know the answer to that,
and it was not all of them.
630
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,560
So, I think trying to play it
631
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,000
a little bit downbeat
632
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,040
and trying to, sort of,
633
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,400
keep it almost below the surface
634
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,640
was deliberate to try
635
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:00,920
and spare the sensitivities
636
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,720
of some of the families of those
637
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,160
who were died and injured.
638
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:10,280
But, I really do think that
that's meant that this event
639
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,160
doesn't have a, sort of, place
in the infamy of London history
640
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:15,720
that it probably deserves.
641
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,400
1994, a lot of people were still
dying from HIV
642
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,680
and by that time,
were some cruel attitudes,
643
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,040
initially from some people
about that horrible disease
644
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,480
had changed as people realised that
the likes of Magic Johnson,
645
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,600
Freddie Mercury, Rock Hudson,
646
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,320
people who were loved
public figures,
647
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,120
succumbed to this disease,
many people who knew someone
648
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,720
who had died from being
HIV positive, I certainly did.
649
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,240
I'm not sure that the comparative
lack of publicity
650
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,920
over what happened at the Dream City
651
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,160
was anything to do
with societal homophobia
652
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,840
or attitudes within the media,
653
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,400
this was 1994,
654
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,360
it wasn't 1974 and if you think
about what happened
655
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,400
five years later,
the Admiral Duncan gay pub,
656
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,240
a nail bomb went off, I mean,
657
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,120
there was a huge amount
of publicity.
658
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,320
I think this was more to do
with the fact that
659
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,200
the men were at a cinema
660
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,520
which specialised
in pornographic films,
661
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,720
it was considered to be sleazy,
662
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,120
there was almost a certain...
663
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,000
an element of embarrassment
and whether that would still
664
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,000
be the case today, I do not know,
665
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,680
but none of the victims
were identified.
666
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,160
In that respect,
they were almost written about
667
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,840
as statistics
rather than human beings.
668
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,440
I think the variety
of the backgrounds and ages
669
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,160
of these men kind of made us
even more determined
670
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,040
that we weren't going to let
their personal details leak out
671
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,160
to the media,
672
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,160
because there were families,
wives, children
673
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,080
who would have been
perhaps embarrassed
674
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,560
and really quite offended
675
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,560
had the details became known
676
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:07,800
and there was no need to.
677
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,360
It would have been gratuitous
to just give their names
678
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,520
to the media for the sake of it,
679
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,200
we didn't need to
for the investigation.
680
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,920
We had to handle any publicity
around this case
681
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,440
with a great deal of sensitivity
682
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,280
because it was entirely possible
that their family or their friends,
683
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,920
who we'd want to contact,
to tell them about their death
684
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,440
or the fact
that they are in hospital,
685
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,400
the ones that survived.
686
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,560
We didn't want at the same time
to be saying,
687
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,360
"Oh, you know,
that fire at the gay cinema?
688
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,640
"With the pornographic films?
689
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,120
"Well, your loved one
or your friend has died there."
690
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,840
Because you just felt that would be,
sort of, applying two levels
691
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,160
of pain for the family and friends.
692
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,200
And so whereas we would usually
go to the press,
693
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,440
to the local media in London
to try to identify these people
694
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,280
and, you know,
get people to come forward
695
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,000
and tell us who they were,
696
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,200
we were reluctant to do that,
we didn't want to do that
697
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,000
because we had this anonymity aspect
698
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,080
that we wanted to somehow
to try to preserve.
699
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,160
When I look back on it
700
00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:10,760
all these years later,
701
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,880
I think I realise that we were
702
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,120
a little bit ahead of the game
703
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,840
in some ways,
I think we dealt with it
704
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,520
with a sensitivity and understanding
705
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,240
which perhaps wasn't typical
of the establishment,
706
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,120
the authorities or the police
at that time,
707
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,480
but we kind of saw
that there was this issue,
708
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,080
and we took great pains
to make sure
709
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,640
we didn't cause additional offence
or upset for people.
710
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,160
Lauwers gave himself up
at Walthamstow Police Station,
711
00:34:38,240 --> 00:34:40,120
he went in and said,
"I think you're looking for me,
712
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,440
"I've done something silly."
713
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,560
There was a sense of remorse
714
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,640
because Lauwers presumably
having sobered up
715
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:50,240
and realised what he had done
the next day
716
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,880
from handing himself
over to the police.
717
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,440
And in some ways
I think he was quite remorseful,
718
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,400
I think he did what he did
on the spur of the moment
719
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,720
and he certainly didn't really
think it through
720
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,080
and what the effects might be,
721
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,480
and he was quite
722
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,160
shocked and surprised
723
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:10,320
that his action had caused
the death of 11 other men.
724
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,000
I don't think we know
that he understood and knew
725
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,840
that it was gay porn day,
726
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,920
I think
it was a communication issue,
727
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,800
communication failure,
728
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:21,840
if that had been able
729
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,720
to have been
communicated to him properly,
730
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,640
when he first went there,
it might well be
731
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,240
that he would have just gone away
and came back later.
732
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,960
The killer himself, Lauwers,
was given anonymity by the court
733
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,760
from his image ever being put out
into the media,
734
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,560
so the public, to this day
still don't really know who he was
735
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:42,960
and what he actually did.
736
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,920
So, in that regard, to my mind,
he escapes public accountability.
737
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,600
Whether this was,
kind of a, almost a tit for tat.
738
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,760
It evened up and be even handed
to both sides as it were,
739
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,760
I don't know but again I think
this has contributed to the fact
740
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,480
that this is a really serious case
741
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,320
with 11 victims which hardly
anybody knows about.
742
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,440
The cinemas doorman told the court
743
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,920
that half an hour
before the fire started,
744
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,520
he had a row with a man
who was trying to get in free
745
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,240
claiming he'd paid earlier,
746
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,600
the doorman admitted
head butting the man
747
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:18,800
and throwing him out.
748
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,720
David Lauwers,
a 35-year-old cloth cutter
749
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,160
admits he was the man attacked
but denies starting the blaze.
750
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,600
Lauwers, who has a hearing problem,
751
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,960
had the evidence translated
into sign language
752
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,840
by an interpreter.
753
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,440
The prosecution says that Lauwers,
in an act of revenge for the attack,
754
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,520
went to a nearby garage,
bought a can of petrol
755
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,520
and then returned
to the building and set it alight.
756
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,040
Witnesses whose identities
have been protected by the court,
757
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,480
told how pandemonium broke out,
up to 30 men were trapped upstairs,
758
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,920
some found windows boarded up
to keep the cinema in darkness,
759
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,640
another found a door locked.
760
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,120
Four men jumped
or fell to the pavement.
761
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,040
Lauwers denies three sample charges
of murder and two of arson.
762
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,640
The case is expected
to last a fortnight.
763
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:06,320
David Lauwers
is a little bit unusual
764
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,160
in that most homicide cases,
765
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:10,800
murder and manslaughter cases
are fought,
766
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,040
people don't plead guilty,
767
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,560
because there's not much
in it for them.
768
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,680
David Lauwers is unusual in that
he pleaded guilty to manslaughter
769
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,440
and I think it's true
that he was genuinely remorseful
770
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,680
about what he had done,
he'd in a fit of anger,
771
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,520
he'd set this fire,
just really to make a point
772
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,800
without any idea
that the consequences
773
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,280
would be that 11 people
lost their life
774
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,040
as a result of what he did.
775
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,520
It's kind of unusual in some ways
to see this level of remorse,
776
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,360
I mean, he volunteered himself
to police
777
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,480
as soon as he realised
what he had done
778
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,360
and he was in the media,
he gave himself up,
779
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:47,640
he came into the police station
780
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:49,480
and he said previously
to one of his friends,
781
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,920
"I could be
on a murder charge for this,
782
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,120
"I did that, but I was, you know,
I was just annoyed."
783
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,560
The fact that he showed this remorse
784
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,760
was evident in the leniency
really of the sentence he got.
785
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,960
He pleaded guilty to manslaughter
786
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,560
and he was sentenced to life
with a recommendation
787
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,720
of serving at least ten years
before he applied for parole.
788
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,000
He pleaded guilty
at court to manslaughter
789
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,640
and was given
ten years imprisonment,
790
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:16,400
a tariff of ten years,
less than a year for every life,
791
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,280
I'd say he got a very good result.
792
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:27,280
Given the change in attitudes
and change in legal attitudes
793
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,000
over the last nearly 30 years,
794
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,680
this crime would be viewed
very differently today.
795
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,720
In think in 1994,
796
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,480
hate crime overall as a concept
was in its infancy
797
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:47,400
and certainly in relation
to the LGBTQ community
798
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,960
really wasn't on the radar
of the legal system.
799
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:54,640
Now, of course, it's very different
and I think that these days
800
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:59,040
would be such a massively
aggravating factor
801
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,200
that even a defendant
who gave himself up
802
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,040
who pleaded guilty
which are both things
803
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,480
for which you'll get credit
when sentenced,
804
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,120
find himself looking
at a much different sentence
805
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,720
than that that Lauwers received
in this case.
806
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,800
From my perspective
on seeing them deceased bodies
807
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,880
and I believe there were five
in one of the rooms,
808
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,840
obviously, they would have been
burnt as well,
809
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,240
very unpleasant,
it's horrible to see.
810
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,080
You do get some incidents
that will stay with you forever.
811
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,120
In the '80s and '90s
we used to go out
812
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,680
and have a few beers after
and get on with it.
813
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,600
But now the fire service
have moved on considerably
814
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,160
and we have something called 'TRIM'
815
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:49,800
which is Trauma Risk
Information Management,
816
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,600
which offers you a referral
to an expert
817
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,400
on mental health,
818
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,640
we look after each other very much.
819
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:01,640
But back in the '90s,
820
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:04,160
them guys who went in that fire,
they'd be...
821
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,440
they'd be marked forever,
they'll never forget that.
822
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,200
That cinema was a sleaze pit,
it wasn't licensed
823
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,160
which is why, of course,
there was no proper fire inspection,
824
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:19,640
nowadays, if people were
in a pornographic cinema,
825
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,000
I think their attitudes
would be different.
826
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,080
I don't think the courts would be
827
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:33,080
so ready to protect Lauwers
from being publicly identified,
828
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,800
I think his photograph
would have been released
829
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,120
and people could have seen him
for what he was.
830
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,920
This would have resulted
in more publicity,
831
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,440
a keener and more
greater appreciation
832
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,320
of the terrible tragedy
which it caused.
833
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,760
We always assumed
that David Lauwers
834
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,600
had just essentially
lost his temper,
835
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,280
was so annoyed he wasn't allowed
into the cinema
836
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,560
that he reacted by going
and buying some petrol
837
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,320
and setting fire to it,
just out of temper.
838
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,160
Of course, now sadly
we will never be able to ask him,
839
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,200
he admitted that he did it,
840
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,280
but the reason why he did it,
we don't know.
841
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:11,640
And he died in prison,
842
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:13,480
so he took the answer
to that question
843
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:14,520
to the grave with him.
69265
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