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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:05,250 --> 00:00:09,480 The thing that I remember about her was that if I would frown, 2 00:00:10,016 --> 00:00:14,326 she would look at me and say, "Dad, I don't like that face." 3 00:00:14,366 --> 00:00:17,246 And I'd smile and she'd say, "That's better." 4 00:00:17,283 --> 00:00:19,073 That's just the way she was. 5 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:23,300 She loved her daddy. She loved her daddy. 6 00:00:23,333 --> 00:00:25,383 She was daddy's girl. 7 00:00:25,416 --> 00:00:32,996 ♪♪ 8 00:00:33,033 --> 00:00:40,153 ♪♪ 9 00:00:40,183 --> 00:00:42,473 Welcome to "How It Really Happened." 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,230 I'm Hill Harper. 11 00:00:44,266 --> 00:00:47,146 The day after Christmas 1996, 12 00:00:47,183 --> 00:00:50,183 JonBenét Ramsey became a household name. 13 00:00:50,216 --> 00:00:52,116 The story of the 6-year-old beauty queen 14 00:00:52,150 --> 00:00:54,430 sparked a media frenzy that had journalists, attorneys, 15 00:00:54,466 --> 00:00:57,196 police and the public poring over every detail 16 00:00:57,233 --> 00:01:00,123 of one of the most bizarre crimes in recent history. 17 00:01:00,150 --> 00:01:02,020 Nearly two years later, the investigation 18 00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:03,120 was at a standstill. 19 00:01:03,150 --> 00:01:05,050 Many thought the only way to get answers 20 00:01:05,083 --> 00:01:06,303 was through a grand jury. 21 00:01:06,333 --> 00:01:08,233 But like everything else about this story, 22 00:01:08,266 --> 00:01:11,216 even that was complicated. 23 00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:13,020 Take a look. 24 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:18,000 ♪♪ 25 00:01:18,033 --> 00:01:20,153 It is a shocking story that spanned the globe, 26 00:01:20,183 --> 00:01:22,133 the murder of a 6-year-old beauty queen 27 00:01:22,166 --> 00:01:25,126 found dead in the basement of her Boulder home 28 00:01:25,166 --> 00:01:27,076 the day after Christmas, 1996. 29 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:32,266 It was certainly a bizarre case from the beginning with a child 30 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:37,230 suddenly turning up dead inside the house 31 00:01:37,266 --> 00:01:40,216 and no explanation for how it happened. 32 00:01:40,250 --> 00:01:43,120 It's a story that's drawn everyone from the tabloids 33 00:01:43,150 --> 00:01:46,120 to "The New York Times" to this mountainside town. 34 00:01:46,150 --> 00:01:50,370 It's a story that intrigues, fascinates, even nauseates. 35 00:01:52,250 --> 00:01:56,000 The murder of JonBenét started as a kidnapping, 36 00:01:56,033 --> 00:01:58,183 and it started on the morning of Christmas. 37 00:01:58,216 --> 00:02:00,316 The Ramseys woke up early that day 38 00:02:00,350 --> 00:02:04,000 because they were supposed to go on a family trip. 39 00:02:04,033 --> 00:02:08,123 John: We were to leave early that morning, fly to Michigan. 40 00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:09,080 King: Morning after Christmas? 41 00:02:09,116 --> 00:02:10,226 Morning after. 42 00:02:10,266 --> 00:02:13,426 The first thing I remember is waking up, 43 00:02:13,466 --> 00:02:15,476 getting dressed hurriedly, 44 00:02:16,016 --> 00:02:18,396 putting a few things together to take on the plane. 45 00:02:18,433 --> 00:02:20,083 This about what time? 46 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:22,216 It's early morning, before daylight. 47 00:02:22,250 --> 00:02:24,320 You're up? Mm-hmm. 48 00:02:24,350 --> 00:02:25,350 Then what happens? 49 00:02:25,383 --> 00:02:28,283 Then I go down the spiral staircase, 50 00:02:28,316 --> 00:02:32,196 and there on one of the runs of the stair 51 00:02:32,233 --> 00:02:35,253 is the 3-page ransom note. 52 00:02:35,283 --> 00:02:39,473 It said, "Mr. Ramsey, we have your daughter." 53 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,450 And I immediately ran back upstairs 54 00:02:42,483 --> 00:02:45,173 and pushed open her door 55 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,270 and she was not in her bed, and I screamed for John. 56 00:02:59,250 --> 00:03:00,450 The note said their 6-year-old daughter 57 00:03:00,483 --> 00:03:03,183 had been kidnapped from her bedroom overnight 58 00:03:03,216 --> 00:03:08,226 but would be returned in exchange for $118,000. 59 00:03:08,266 --> 00:03:09,366 We thought we were dealing with a kidnapping. 60 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,050 King: Fearing the worst. Patsy: The police arrived. 61 00:03:11,083 --> 00:03:12,123 Absolute-- you don't know whether you're going to see 62 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,230 your daughter in an hour, 63 00:03:14,266 --> 00:03:17,316 in a day, in a year, in 10 years or never. 64 00:03:17,350 --> 00:03:18,330 It's a horrible feeling. 65 00:03:18,366 --> 00:03:20,026 And what are you doing, Patsy? 66 00:03:20,066 --> 00:03:23,066 Are you waiting for a phone call from the kidnapper? 67 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:26,100 Is that what you -- Right, yes. 68 00:03:26,133 --> 00:03:29,333 Costello: Hours go by and the kidnapper doesn't call, 69 00:03:29,366 --> 00:03:32,196 but there's still a lot going on inside that house. 70 00:03:32,233 --> 00:03:34,473 We had victims' advocates there. 71 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,100 We had uniformed police. 72 00:03:36,133 --> 00:03:37,473 We had detectives. 73 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,120 People were in the kitchen making sandwiches. 74 00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:41,370 I mean, it was -- there was -- it was chaos. 75 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,420 There were people fingerprinting. 76 00:03:42,450 --> 00:03:44,080 There was fingerprint dust everywhere. 77 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:45,466 Evidence crews there. It was zoo-like. 78 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,370 A nightmare. It was a little zoo-like. 79 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,170 So around lunchtime, there was one detective left. 80 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:51,470 Her name was Linda Arndt, 81 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,470 and she notices that John Ramsey is restless. 82 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,320 It's my understanding that Linda Arndt 83 00:03:58,350 --> 00:04:02,330 had pulled one of John's friends aside and said, 84 00:04:02,366 --> 00:04:06,166 "John is pacing and he needs something to occupy his time. 85 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,480 I'm going to suggest that you search the house. 86 00:04:09,016 --> 00:04:10,326 Would you go with him?" 87 00:04:12,450 --> 00:04:16,430 John: We started in the basement, 88 00:04:16,466 --> 00:04:17,996 and we were just looking, 89 00:04:18,033 --> 00:04:22,133 and, uh, we have one room in the basement 90 00:04:22,166 --> 00:04:26,326 that there are no windows in the -- that room. 91 00:04:26,366 --> 00:04:31,176 When I opened the door and turned the light on... 92 00:04:31,216 --> 00:04:36,326 ♪♪ 93 00:04:36,366 --> 00:04:38,226 ...she was down there. It was her. 94 00:04:41,166 --> 00:04:43,096 Hill: John picked up his daughter's body 95 00:04:43,133 --> 00:04:45,083 and carried her up the stairs, 96 00:04:45,116 --> 00:04:47,346 and that's when the real questions began. 97 00:04:47,383 --> 00:04:50,123 What transpired there when they found the body 98 00:04:50,150 --> 00:04:53,020 changed the whole perspective of what we were looking at. 99 00:04:53,050 --> 00:04:55,370 We were no longer looking at a straight kidnapping. 100 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,100 We were looking at now a homicide. 101 00:04:59,133 --> 00:05:00,403 She was tortured. 102 00:05:00,433 --> 00:05:03,333 A garrote was put around her neck twice 103 00:05:03,366 --> 00:05:05,346 and pulled tight enough 104 00:05:05,383 --> 00:05:10,333 that it left deep marks in her neck. 105 00:05:10,366 --> 00:05:12,126 She was hit in the head with something. 106 00:05:12,166 --> 00:05:15,046 They never were sure what it was, 107 00:05:15,083 --> 00:05:19,003 but it was 8 1/2 inches long. 108 00:05:19,033 --> 00:05:21,173 The injury she sustained, the skull injury, 109 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,150 was more like her being thrown against some larger object, 110 00:05:26,183 --> 00:05:27,423 like the edge of a bathtub, 111 00:05:27,450 --> 00:05:31,070 the rounded edge of a pedestal sink, 112 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:32,270 something like that. 113 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:36,080 This child had a cracked skull. 114 00:05:36,116 --> 00:05:41,426 This child had sexual penetration, 115 00:05:41,466 --> 00:05:45,226 choked, bruised. 116 00:05:45,266 --> 00:05:47,076 This was sick. 117 00:05:51,433 --> 00:05:54,083 Zesbaugh: It was like a game of "Clue." 118 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:56,076 Everybody involved could have 119 00:05:56,116 --> 00:05:57,476 had something to do about this murder. 120 00:05:58,016 --> 00:06:00,126 They were either involved in killing her 121 00:06:00,166 --> 00:06:01,276 or in covering it up. 122 00:06:01,316 --> 00:06:05,166 This investigation really got down to one thing -- 123 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,070 was someone inside the house responsible 124 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:10,330 for the death of this little girl or did -- 125 00:06:10,366 --> 00:06:14,076 did someone break in? 126 00:06:14,116 --> 00:06:16,176 Camerota: A lot of the detectives who were working this case 127 00:06:16,216 --> 00:06:20,066 felt that the evidence pointed to an inside job. 128 00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:22,000 Man: Although at first, the murder looked like 129 00:06:22,033 --> 00:06:25,033 a botched kidnapping, the Ramseys were suspected. 130 00:06:25,066 --> 00:06:28,176 There was, for example, no clear sign of forced entry, 131 00:06:28,216 --> 00:06:30,126 no footprints in the snow. 132 00:06:30,166 --> 00:06:32,446 I don't buy into the stranger theory 133 00:06:32,483 --> 00:06:34,423 because of what I saw in that house. 134 00:06:34,450 --> 00:06:38,120 I don't think anybody left the house. 135 00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:40,330 Camerota: The most obvious point of entry 136 00:06:40,366 --> 00:06:42,246 was this window in the basement, 137 00:06:42,283 --> 00:06:46,103 and it was open, and police looked at it 138 00:06:46,133 --> 00:06:48,183 and they thought that that would be the obvious point of entry. 139 00:06:48,216 --> 00:06:51,996 However, there were cobwebs on this window, 140 00:06:52,033 --> 00:06:54,273 and police concluded that these cobwebs 141 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,380 would have been disturbed, but, in fact, they were intact. 142 00:06:58,416 --> 00:07:00,076 So somebody crawling down in there 143 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:01,196 could not have gotten down in there 144 00:07:01,233 --> 00:07:03,253 without disturbing the cobwebs. 145 00:07:05,233 --> 00:07:06,483 The police were obviously 146 00:07:07,016 --> 00:07:08,446 looking at the Ramseys at this point 147 00:07:08,483 --> 00:07:12,123 and then so was the rest of the world 148 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:16,030 because the media got ahold of these videotapes of JonBenét 149 00:07:16,066 --> 00:07:18,016 in all of these beauty contests, 150 00:07:18,050 --> 00:07:20,050 and that was a point of fascination. 151 00:07:20,083 --> 00:07:22,423 They don't seem shook-up enough. They don't seem broke-up enough. 152 00:07:22,450 --> 00:07:24,220 Just the whole situation seems really odd 153 00:07:24,250 --> 00:07:28,420 because of, um, the way that her childhood was, 154 00:07:28,450 --> 00:07:30,320 and I don't think it was normal at all. 155 00:07:30,350 --> 00:07:31,480 I feel they should have questioned 156 00:07:32,016 --> 00:07:33,166 the parents right away. 157 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,380 Why they didn't, I don't know. 158 00:07:35,416 --> 00:07:38,426 Woman #2: Most of the American public knows your daughter 159 00:07:38,466 --> 00:07:40,326 through glamour shots from pageants. 160 00:07:40,366 --> 00:07:42,026 John: Yeah. 161 00:07:42,066 --> 00:07:45,016 In hindsight, do you wish 162 00:07:45,050 --> 00:07:47,370 that she had not participated in that? 163 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,330 Those were beautiful pictures. 164 00:07:50,366 --> 00:07:54,146 I'm so happy that we have those pictures. 165 00:07:54,183 --> 00:07:56,083 That's all that we have. Those were memories. 166 00:07:56,116 --> 00:07:58,196 Yeah, that was -- that was just one very small 167 00:07:58,233 --> 00:07:59,323 part of JonBenét's life. Yeah. 168 00:07:59,350 --> 00:08:02,200 That was a few Sunday afternoons. 169 00:08:02,233 --> 00:08:04,303 But you know the criticism I'm talking about. 170 00:08:04,333 --> 00:08:05,433 I know, I know. People are accusing you 171 00:08:05,466 --> 00:08:08,076 of dressing her up like a little adult. 172 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:10,326 Was there any inappropriate behavior going on at home? 173 00:08:10,366 --> 00:08:12,026 Absolutely not. No. 174 00:08:12,066 --> 00:08:15,066 Velez-Mitchell: The Ramseys were getting a lot of flak 175 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:16,300 for these beauty pageants 176 00:08:16,333 --> 00:08:20,153 they had put their child into, but their friends were saying, 177 00:08:20,183 --> 00:08:22,203 "Could they have killed their child? 178 00:08:22,233 --> 00:08:24,003 Absolutely no way." 179 00:08:24,033 --> 00:08:26,083 Griffin: I didn't find any criticism 180 00:08:26,116 --> 00:08:27,366 with anything that they did. 181 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,230 They just really are warm, wonderful, 182 00:08:30,266 --> 00:08:32,416 loving people who have gone through way more 183 00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:36,130 than anybody should have ever had to face in their life. 184 00:08:36,166 --> 00:08:37,476 This case was so polarizing 185 00:08:38,016 --> 00:08:40,276 and so many people were really demanding 186 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:41,426 that there be a grand jury. 187 00:08:41,466 --> 00:08:44,076 So when the district attorney finally said, 188 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:46,046 "Yes, we're going to convene a grand jury," 189 00:08:46,083 --> 00:08:48,283 phew, there was a lot of relief. 190 00:08:48,316 --> 00:08:54,096 ♪♪ 191 00:08:54,133 --> 00:08:56,483 For the next 13 months, the grand jury would hear 192 00:08:57,016 --> 00:09:00,376 testimony highlighting every detail. 193 00:09:00,416 --> 00:09:04,146 But the question -- what was fact, and what was fantasy? 194 00:09:07,483 --> 00:09:10,023 The grand jury investigating the murder of JonBenét Ramsey 195 00:09:10,050 --> 00:09:11,230 was chosen in May of last year, 196 00:09:11,266 --> 00:09:13,016 but the panel didn't meet for the first time 197 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:15,220 until September 15, 1998. 198 00:09:15,250 --> 00:09:16,400 The grand jury has been deciding 199 00:09:16,433 --> 00:09:18,353 if there is probable cause to believe 200 00:09:18,383 --> 00:09:20,303 someone has committed a crime. 201 00:09:20,333 --> 00:09:23,433 The grand jury hearings in this JonBenét Ramsey case were, 202 00:09:23,466 --> 00:09:28,266 of course, behind closed doors, but we have a pretty good idea 203 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:32,120 of the evidence that they heard in there. 204 00:09:32,150 --> 00:09:34,220 Walker: I guess the thing that really jumps out at me 205 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:37,370 is the ransom note and how incongruous, 206 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:44,080 how just extraordinarily odd that thing is in the context 207 00:09:44,116 --> 00:09:46,276 of what a real kidnapping should look like. 208 00:09:46,316 --> 00:09:49,396 "Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police, 209 00:09:49,433 --> 00:09:54,103 FBI, et cetera, will result in your daughter being beheaded." 210 00:09:54,133 --> 00:09:58,083 There were multiple references in there saying that, "Look. 211 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:00,316 If you call anybody, we're going to kill your daughter." 212 00:10:00,350 --> 00:10:02,480 Camerota: "If we catch you talking to a stray dog, 213 00:10:03,016 --> 00:10:04,066 she dies. 214 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:06,430 If you alert bank authorities, she dies." 215 00:10:06,466 --> 00:10:11,066 Warning after warning that if he contacts anyone, 216 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:13,150 the daughter is going to be killed. 217 00:10:13,183 --> 00:10:16,133 Yet Patsy Ramsey calls 911, 218 00:10:16,166 --> 00:10:20,096 but she doesn't tell the police that the note says, 219 00:10:20,133 --> 00:10:23,403 "They're going to kill JonBenét if I call the police." 220 00:10:23,433 --> 00:10:25,273 I read it very fast. 221 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:28,180 I was out of my mind. 222 00:10:28,216 --> 00:10:32,266 It said don't call the police, and I told Patsy, 223 00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:34,150 "Call the police immediately." 224 00:10:34,183 --> 00:10:37,303 I can't believe that a family 225 00:10:37,333 --> 00:10:40,103 whose child has just been kidnapped 226 00:10:40,133 --> 00:10:44,433 would not take pains to carefully read that note, 227 00:10:44,466 --> 00:10:49,066 to make sure that they do nothing that results in harm 228 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:51,020 befalling their daughter. 229 00:10:51,050 --> 00:10:53,080 There were some details in that note 230 00:10:53,116 --> 00:10:57,316 and about the note that raised further suspicions. 231 00:10:57,350 --> 00:11:01,280 "You will withdraw $118,000 from your account." 232 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:03,266 $118,000? 233 00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:06,170 Which later we find out is the exact bonus 234 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,400 that John Ramsey got that year from his company, 235 00:11:08,433 --> 00:11:10,133 Access Graphics, 236 00:11:10,166 --> 00:11:12,366 so only a few people would have that information. 237 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,380 It wasn't just the amount of ransom 238 00:11:14,416 --> 00:11:16,366 that was kind of suspicious. 239 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,070 It was the fact that this note was written on a page torn 240 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:23,120 from Patsy Ramsey's own notepad. 241 00:11:23,150 --> 00:11:26,120 When you tear something, no two things are going to tear alike. 242 00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:29,250 Even if you take two sheets of paper and tear them together, 243 00:11:29,283 --> 00:11:30,483 they're going to have separate and distinct 244 00:11:31,016 --> 00:11:32,416 tear patterns associated with them. 245 00:11:32,450 --> 00:11:35,020 You put them back together and the puzzle fits. 246 00:11:35,050 --> 00:11:37,480 Man: An alleged ransom note was written on a pad of paper 247 00:11:38,016 --> 00:11:41,046 from inside the house, and some investigators 248 00:11:41,083 --> 00:11:43,033 thought that the handwriting looked like Patsy's. 249 00:11:43,066 --> 00:11:43,996 King: Would you agree 250 00:11:44,033 --> 00:11:45,083 that whoever authored the ransom note 251 00:11:45,116 --> 00:11:47,046 probably killed the child? John: I would agree. 252 00:11:47,083 --> 00:11:49,423 I totally agree that whoever -- 253 00:11:49,450 --> 00:11:52,250 whoever wrote this ransom note killed our daughter. 254 00:11:52,283 --> 00:11:55,053 Yes, I concur wholeheartedly. 255 00:11:55,083 --> 00:11:57,483 From what we understand that the handwriting people 256 00:11:58,016 --> 00:11:59,316 were able to eliminate John 257 00:11:59,350 --> 00:12:01,370 as being the writer of that note 258 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,280 and were not totally able to eliminate Patsy. 259 00:12:04,316 --> 00:12:05,416 They weren't -- they didn't say that she did wrote it. 260 00:12:05,450 --> 00:12:07,220 Let me make it very clear. 261 00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:08,470 But they said that they couldn't say that she didn't write it. 262 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,270 Camerota: Patsy's natural writing 263 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,100 did not look like the ransom note, 264 00:12:14,133 --> 00:12:15,423 and we learned that experts said 265 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:20,000 that it is very hard to disguise your handwriting. 266 00:12:20,033 --> 00:12:23,373 It's possible, but it's really hard to do. 267 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,270 But there was -- there was another piece of evidence 268 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:31,080 that the grand jury heard that related right back to Patsy. 269 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:33,316 Man #2: The rope used to choke JonBenét was tightened 270 00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:36,200 with a paintbrush from her mother's hobby kit. 271 00:12:36,233 --> 00:12:41,073 If you believe Patsy Ramsey did this to her daughter, JonBenét, 272 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:43,320 you have to believe that Patsy took a cord, 273 00:12:43,350 --> 00:12:45,370 put it around her neck, 274 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,250 then broke a paintbrush into three pieces, 275 00:12:49,283 --> 00:12:55,073 took one of those pieces and secured it to the cord, 276 00:12:55,100 --> 00:12:57,280 making what's commonly known as a garrote, 277 00:12:57,316 --> 00:13:02,346 and then pulled that cord very hard and strangled her. 278 00:13:04,433 --> 00:13:08,353 I'm absolutely convinced that it was a sadistic psychopath 279 00:13:08,383 --> 00:13:12,323 that did this, not Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey. 280 00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:14,020 Camerota: The grand jury heard 281 00:13:14,050 --> 00:13:17,370 all of the really horrible details of the autopsy, 282 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,000 and one detail in there really stood out. 283 00:13:22,033 --> 00:13:25,003 Woman #3: JonBenét had pineapple that had been recently ingested 284 00:13:25,033 --> 00:13:26,453 or eaten before she died. 285 00:13:26,483 --> 00:13:29,183 The interesting thing about the pineapple, 286 00:13:29,216 --> 00:13:31,216 there wasn't any pineapple served at the Christmas party 287 00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:32,430 where they had been the night before, 288 00:13:32,466 --> 00:13:34,166 and then the Ramseys claimed 289 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,200 JonBenét was asleep when she got home. 290 00:13:36,233 --> 00:13:38,373 And they put her right to bed, and she never woke up, 291 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,030 and yet it's my understanding 292 00:13:40,066 --> 00:13:42,266 there was pineapple on the kitchen table in a bowl, 293 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:44,170 so that piece of evidence, for instance, 294 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,130 may be important if you think somebody lied to the police 295 00:13:47,166 --> 00:13:50,446 about what was given to them or what happened with JonBenét. 296 00:13:50,483 --> 00:13:53,183 Police found another potential inconsistency 297 00:13:53,216 --> 00:13:57,076 in the Ramsey story related to that 911 call. 298 00:13:57,116 --> 00:13:58,176 Dispatcher: What's going on there, ma'am? 299 00:13:58,216 --> 00:13:59,996 Patsy: We have a kidnapping. 300 00:14:00,033 --> 00:14:01,023 Velez-Mitchell: The Ramseys had always claimed 301 00:14:01,050 --> 00:14:02,130 that their son, Burke, 302 00:14:02,166 --> 00:14:05,026 had been asleep at the time of the 911 call, 303 00:14:05,066 --> 00:14:06,316 but then police discovered a clue 304 00:14:06,350 --> 00:14:09,230 that showed that the son, Burke, might have been awake. 305 00:14:09,266 --> 00:14:11,276 Take a deep breath, please. Hurry, hurry, hurry. 306 00:14:11,316 --> 00:14:16,366 Patsy, Patsy, Patsy, Patsy, Patsy? 307 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,250 There were a few seconds at the end of the 911 call 308 00:14:19,283 --> 00:14:21,433 where Patsy thought she had hung up... 309 00:14:24,083 --> 00:14:26,023 ...but the police had it in hand, 310 00:14:26,050 --> 00:14:29,350 and they thought they heard the sound of another voice. 311 00:14:29,383 --> 00:14:34,383 We do know, based on an evaluation of the 911 tape, 312 00:14:34,416 --> 00:14:38,416 that Burke's voice is on there saying, "What did you say?" 313 00:14:38,450 --> 00:14:41,220 Or "What did he say?" Or something to that nature. 314 00:14:41,250 --> 00:14:43,400 This is after, of course, 315 00:14:43,433 --> 00:14:46,083 Ramseys denied that Burke was even awake. 316 00:14:46,116 --> 00:14:47,476 He was asleep. 317 00:14:48,016 --> 00:14:49,396 Police also say digital enhancement 318 00:14:49,433 --> 00:14:51,103 indicates that Burke was awake 319 00:14:51,133 --> 00:14:54,053 and asking questions when you called 911. 320 00:14:54,083 --> 00:14:58,273 Well, some police claim they think they hear that. 321 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:00,050 We would challenge the police to release that tape. 322 00:15:00,083 --> 00:15:02,023 Make it all public. Let's make it public. 323 00:15:02,050 --> 00:15:03,420 We'd like to hear that tape. We've never heard it. 324 00:15:03,450 --> 00:15:05,200 That is not our recollection 325 00:15:05,233 --> 00:15:07,033 of what happened that morning. 326 00:15:07,066 --> 00:15:10,326 If that was Burke's voice on the 911 call, 327 00:15:10,366 --> 00:15:12,166 meaning he was awake, 328 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,350 why wouldn't the Ramseys just admit that? 329 00:15:14,383 --> 00:15:17,183 And that led to speculation about Burke's involvement. 330 00:15:17,216 --> 00:15:20,066 Remember, he was only 9 years old at the time. 331 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:22,120 Woman #4: I have heard some votes for the younger child, 332 00:15:22,150 --> 00:15:23,420 the little boy who was in the house, too, 333 00:15:23,450 --> 00:15:25,480 as possible -- an accident. 334 00:15:26,016 --> 00:15:27,196 But I just don't -- 335 00:15:27,233 --> 00:15:29,183 I mean, if we're going to throw out who is in the house -- 336 00:15:29,216 --> 00:15:31,196 I remember that becoming talk-show fodder, 337 00:15:31,233 --> 00:15:34,073 that maybe this little boy had either accidentally 338 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,280 or on purpose hit JonBenét over the head 339 00:15:36,316 --> 00:15:38,326 and then this was a cleanup job, essentially, 340 00:15:38,366 --> 00:15:40,476 by the family so that their little boy 341 00:15:41,016 --> 00:15:42,426 wouldn't be in trouble with the law. 342 00:15:42,466 --> 00:15:45,116 We know that one of the last people to testify 343 00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:48,250 before the grand jury was JonBenét's older brother, 344 00:15:48,283 --> 00:15:49,483 Burke Ramsey. 345 00:15:50,016 --> 00:15:53,026 As anybody been cleared, cleared? 346 00:15:53,066 --> 00:15:54,326 Well, Burke has been. Burke has been. 347 00:15:54,366 --> 00:15:57,016 There's no doubt Burke did not do it, right? 348 00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:58,230 That's definitive. Absolutely. 349 00:15:58,266 --> 00:16:00,326 So way back at the beginning of this case, 350 00:16:00,366 --> 00:16:03,166 when tabloids said otherwise, they got sued, 351 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,230 and I believe they settled, paying large amounts of money. 352 00:16:06,266 --> 00:16:10,296 Burke Ramsey has nothing to do with this case. 353 00:16:10,333 --> 00:16:13,233 People wanted to know if the Ramseys were lying 354 00:16:13,266 --> 00:16:15,266 or they were covering something up 355 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:18,020 or were they the victims of some psychopathic killer, 356 00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:21,270 and the truth was nobody knew. 357 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,470 None of it makes sense. 358 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,000 It just simply doesn't. 359 00:16:27,033 --> 00:16:31,053 This case have too many questions, but few answers. 360 00:16:31,083 --> 00:16:34,123 It was up to the grand jury to decide. 361 00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:36,130 Certainly no easy task. 362 00:16:36,166 --> 00:16:39,246 And then finally, finally, we got our answer. 363 00:16:39,283 --> 00:16:41,083 There has apparently been a major development 364 00:16:41,116 --> 00:16:42,266 in the grand jury investigation 365 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:44,120 in the murder of JonBenét Ramsey. 366 00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:47,250 How is it exactly that you think that I killed my daughter? 367 00:16:47,283 --> 00:16:49,433 -What's the motive? -I just cannot understand that. 368 00:16:49,466 --> 00:16:52,096 I want to hear it from start to finish. 369 00:16:56,016 --> 00:16:57,416 There has apparently been a major development 370 00:16:57,450 --> 00:16:59,080 in the grand jury investigation 371 00:16:59,116 --> 00:17:00,376 of the murder of JonBenét Ramsey. 372 00:17:00,416 --> 00:17:03,246 Woman #5: D.A. Alex Hunter we see now walking down, 373 00:17:03,283 --> 00:17:05,433 surrounded by cameras and microphones 374 00:17:05,466 --> 00:17:08,176 on his way to the podium to hold a news conference. 375 00:17:08,216 --> 00:17:10,066 When Alex Hunter announced 376 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:13,300 what he was going to do about the grand jury's decision, 377 00:17:13,333 --> 00:17:18,253 it was a beautiful, spectacular Colorado day. 378 00:17:18,283 --> 00:17:24,423 Blue skies and hordes and hordes of media, 379 00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:30,130 and he got up to the podium and he thanked the grand jury. 380 00:17:30,166 --> 00:17:34,466 The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well. 381 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,150 But at this time, he was not going to indict either John 382 00:17:39,183 --> 00:17:40,383 or Patsy Ramsey. 383 00:17:40,416 --> 00:17:43,416 I and my prosecution task force 384 00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:47,070 believe we do not have sufficient evidence 385 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:51,050 to warrant the filing of charges against anyone 386 00:17:51,083 --> 00:17:54,303 who has been investigated at this time. 387 00:17:56,333 --> 00:17:57,453 Grant: This is not a happy day. 388 00:17:57,483 --> 00:17:59,203 Yesterday was not a happy day. 389 00:17:59,233 --> 00:18:02,133 There is no satisfaction here in Boulder. 390 00:18:02,166 --> 00:18:04,126 There was no smoking gun in this case. 391 00:18:04,166 --> 00:18:06,366 You know, we didn't have a gun with Patsy's fingerprints on it, 392 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,100 or we didn't have a knife with John's fingerprints on it. 393 00:18:09,133 --> 00:18:11,173 We didn't have anything like that. 394 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,270 Zesbaugh: I think there was a collective feeling of, "Oh, no. 395 00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:17,180 This thing is never going to be solved. 396 00:18:17,216 --> 00:18:20,166 If the D.A. doesn't think there's enough evidence there 397 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:21,320 to go after someone 398 00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:25,150 and get a conviction in this case, this case is lost. 399 00:18:25,183 --> 00:18:28,273 We're never going to know who murdered this little girl." 400 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,370 You know, it's been a mess from the day one, 401 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,100 so it looks like it's going to stay a mess. 402 00:18:34,133 --> 00:18:37,173 It's probably just -- just going to wither away. 403 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,230 This leaves a very bad taste 404 00:18:39,266 --> 00:18:41,276 in everybody's mouth in this town right now. 405 00:18:41,316 --> 00:18:44,366 Within 6 months, the Ramseys came out with a book 406 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,180 telling their story. 407 00:18:46,216 --> 00:18:48,046 It's a great pleasure to welcome the Ramseys 408 00:18:48,083 --> 00:18:49,323 to this edition of "Larry King Live." 409 00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:50,480 It is a live appearance. 410 00:18:51,016 --> 00:18:53,276 Their book is "The Death of Innocence," just published. 411 00:18:53,316 --> 00:18:55,066 They are the co-authors. 412 00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:57,170 Camerota: And this other guy, Steve Thomas, 413 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,350 who had been a detective on the case, 414 00:18:59,383 --> 00:19:01,283 came out with his book, 415 00:19:01,316 --> 00:19:04,426 and his book was all about how the Ramseys were guilty. 416 00:19:04,466 --> 00:19:07,166 Steve Thomas resigned from the Boulder police department, 417 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,430 claiming, "we have failed a little girl named JonBenét." 418 00:19:10,466 --> 00:19:12,476 Now Thomas has written a book on the case, 419 00:19:13,016 --> 00:19:16,096 "JonBenét: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation." 420 00:19:16,133 --> 00:19:18,323 Then a couple of months later, in May of 2000, 421 00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:20,330 the Ramseys go head-to-head 422 00:19:20,366 --> 00:19:23,366 with this Steve Thomas on "Larry King." 423 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,450 Patsy, you could have been arrested in this case. 424 00:19:25,483 --> 00:19:28,403 I wish I had been and then we would have 425 00:19:28,433 --> 00:19:30,053 had a free and fair trial 426 00:19:30,083 --> 00:19:33,073 and you would have met your Waterloo, Mr. Thomas. 427 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:34,350 Are you saying that you -- you would have -- 428 00:19:34,383 --> 00:19:35,453 Let her answer the question, John. 429 00:19:35,483 --> 00:19:37,103 Let me ask you this question, Steve. 430 00:19:37,133 --> 00:19:38,183 You have assaulted my wife. 431 00:19:38,216 --> 00:19:39,316 Why won't you let your wife answer the question? 432 00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:40,320 Because you have assaulted her. 433 00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:42,000 You've called her a murderer. 434 00:19:42,033 --> 00:19:44,323 How is it exactly that you think that I killed my daughter? 435 00:19:44,350 --> 00:19:47,000 What's the motive? I just cannot understand that. 436 00:19:47,033 --> 00:19:49,083 I want to hear it from start to finish. 437 00:19:49,116 --> 00:19:51,076 Patsy, I wasn't there. Tell me exactly... 438 00:19:51,116 --> 00:19:54,116 You were home that night, and apparently you say you -- 439 00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:55,270 Tell me what happened, Mr. Thomas. 440 00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:57,120 You can't -- you can't say for certainty. 441 00:19:57,150 --> 00:19:58,400 You were in the house, right? 442 00:19:58,433 --> 00:20:00,123 Yes, I most certainly was. Am I -- am I assuming right? 443 00:20:00,150 --> 00:20:01,220 Answer my question, please. 444 00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:03,030 King: Certainly he wasn't there. 445 00:20:03,066 --> 00:20:04,116 He has a theory. He has to have a theory. 446 00:20:04,150 --> 00:20:05,220 He has accused us of murder. 447 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:06,250 What is your theory? 448 00:20:06,283 --> 00:20:07,403 Thomas: And you've heard the theory. 449 00:20:07,433 --> 00:20:09,283 I've -- I've offered a hypothesis. 450 00:20:09,316 --> 00:20:11,376 I have not heard the theory. Please answer my question. 451 00:20:11,416 --> 00:20:13,126 I think there was a toileting issue 452 00:20:13,166 --> 00:20:15,326 that night that has been dismissed and underplayed. 453 00:20:15,366 --> 00:20:16,396 King: Okay, a toileting -- explain. 454 00:20:16,433 --> 00:20:18,283 A -- a bed-wetting or a toileting issue. 455 00:20:18,316 --> 00:20:20,426 That caused Patsy get mad at her daughter? 456 00:20:20,466 --> 00:20:22,066 Absolutely. 457 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,150 -Steve Thomas, you are so -- -So in other words, 458 00:20:24,183 --> 00:20:26,133 she killed her daughter in a rage 459 00:20:26,166 --> 00:20:30,126 over the bed-wetting and then garroted her? 460 00:20:30,166 --> 00:20:33,176 It was, like, great television, I guess, but -- 461 00:20:33,216 --> 00:20:37,346 but there's a dead kid here in this story. 462 00:20:37,383 --> 00:20:42,173 I mean, it's a terrible tragedy, and we got this circus going on. 463 00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:48,300 Man #3: The address of what was the Ramsey home in Boulder 464 00:20:48,333 --> 00:20:50,023 has been changed. 465 00:20:50,050 --> 00:20:52,350 The family has moved to Atlanta. 466 00:20:52,383 --> 00:20:56,103 But one thing has not changed in 5 years. 467 00:20:56,133 --> 00:20:59,483 JonBenét's killer remains at large. 468 00:21:00,016 --> 00:21:02,246 For many years in the 2000s, 469 00:21:02,283 --> 00:21:04,253 the case just wasn't going anywhere. 470 00:21:04,283 --> 00:21:06,153 There were just dead ends. 471 00:21:06,183 --> 00:21:08,423 Then in 2006, 472 00:21:08,450 --> 00:21:11,400 the case suddenly became headline news all over again. 473 00:21:13,416 --> 00:21:15,116 King: The latest tragic turn 474 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:18,130 in the most sensational child murder mystery of our time -- 475 00:21:18,166 --> 00:21:21,126 JonBenét Ramsey's mother, Patsy Ramsey, 476 00:21:21,166 --> 00:21:23,276 laid to rest yesterday after losing her 477 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,376 13-year battle with cancer. 478 00:21:26,416 --> 00:21:29,066 Woodward: She started with ovarian cancer. 479 00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:31,030 She became free of that. 480 00:21:31,066 --> 00:21:35,066 It resurfaced as abdominal cancer and spread to her brain, 481 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,120 and she ultimately died of brain cancer. 482 00:21:38,150 --> 00:21:39,270 Zesbaugh: I think if you're one of those people 483 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:41,380 that believe that Patsy Ramsey was somehow involved 484 00:21:41,416 --> 00:21:44,446 with either the murder or the cover-up of her daughter, 485 00:21:44,483 --> 00:21:49,133 that when she died, that secret died with her. 486 00:21:49,166 --> 00:21:52,266 Woodward: I do remember when she died, 487 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:55,420 that one of the district attorneys 488 00:21:55,450 --> 00:21:58,200 who was with a group of police officers said, 489 00:21:58,233 --> 00:22:01,333 "Well, we're kind of feeling that it goes full circle. 490 00:22:01,366 --> 00:22:03,146 She got what she deserved." 491 00:22:03,183 --> 00:22:05,203 I said, "You know, that's a really horrible thing to say. 492 00:22:05,233 --> 00:22:10,223 You don't know if she killed her daughter." 493 00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:13,220 And then within weeks of Patsy's death, 494 00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:17,150 there was a huge break in the case. 495 00:22:17,183 --> 00:22:18,333 Breaking news tonight. 496 00:22:18,366 --> 00:22:20,266 After a decade-long investigation, 497 00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:23,180 an arrest in the JonBenét Ramsey murder case. 498 00:22:27,016 --> 00:22:29,096 Welcome back to "How It Really Happened." 499 00:22:29,133 --> 00:22:31,273 It's no secret that most police investigators believed 500 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:34,130 Patsy Ramsey was involved in her daughter's death. 501 00:22:34,166 --> 00:22:36,276 So when she died in August of 2006, 502 00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:39,046 they likely assumed the case would die with her. 503 00:22:39,083 --> 00:22:41,233 But just 7 weeks after Patsy's death, 504 00:22:41,266 --> 00:22:44,176 a new suspect emerged seemingly out of the blue, 505 00:22:44,216 --> 00:22:45,446 and the focus of the police investigation 506 00:22:45,483 --> 00:22:48,003 shifted back to the intruder theory. 507 00:22:50,050 --> 00:22:51,030 Breaking news tonight. 508 00:22:51,066 --> 00:22:53,126 After a decade-long investigation, 509 00:22:53,166 --> 00:22:56,416 an arrest in the JonBenét Ramsey murder case. 510 00:22:56,450 --> 00:23:01,200 Lacy: John Mark Karr, 41 years old, 511 00:23:01,233 --> 00:23:04,333 was arrested for the murder of JonBenét Ramsey 512 00:23:04,366 --> 00:23:07,276 yesterday morning at approximately 6:00 a.m. 513 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:09,416 in Bangkok, Thailand. 514 00:23:09,450 --> 00:23:12,280 John: It's a day we have been waiting for for 10 years, 515 00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:15,446 and I hope this is a first major step 516 00:23:15,483 --> 00:23:18,183 in really drawing this to a conclusion. 517 00:23:18,216 --> 00:23:19,346 Woman #6: A stunning confession 518 00:23:19,383 --> 00:23:21,123 from the man arrested in Thailand 519 00:23:21,150 --> 00:23:23,470 for the murder of JonBenét Ramsey. 520 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,150 I was with JonBenét when she died. 521 00:23:26,183 --> 00:23:29,103 Her death was an accident. 522 00:23:29,133 --> 00:23:31,383 So here was this guy. He was a teacher. 523 00:23:31,416 --> 00:23:34,376 He was in Thailand, and he surfaces out of the blue 524 00:23:34,416 --> 00:23:39,096 and confesses to the murder of JonBenét Ramsey. 525 00:23:39,133 --> 00:23:41,233 When we saw that picture, that first picture 526 00:23:41,266 --> 00:23:44,466 of John Mark Karr, my initial reaction was, 527 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,220 "Well, that's not what I expected." 528 00:23:47,250 --> 00:23:50,120 He was a slight man, a petite man, 529 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:52,220 sort of delicate features, 530 00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:55,120 not what you would think about when you're thinking -- 531 00:23:55,150 --> 00:23:57,250 worried about the boogeyman breaking into your house 532 00:23:57,283 --> 00:23:58,473 and this intruder theory. 533 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,200 He wasn't the intruder that I had in my mind. 534 00:24:01,233 --> 00:24:04,433 Mainly what we know about this guy is that we don't know much. 535 00:24:04,466 --> 00:24:06,176 His name didn't come up in the beginning 536 00:24:06,216 --> 00:24:07,996 of all these investigations. 537 00:24:08,033 --> 00:24:10,153 He's a bit of a blank page to everybody out there, 538 00:24:10,183 --> 00:24:12,223 even those of us who have covered this case 539 00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:14,470 very, very closely. 540 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,080 Prendergast: Karr was a guy who had been obsessed 541 00:24:17,116 --> 00:24:19,226 with the JonBenét case for many years, 542 00:24:19,266 --> 00:24:21,096 so much so that I think some of his relatives 543 00:24:21,133 --> 00:24:22,403 thought he was writing a book about it. 544 00:24:22,433 --> 00:24:27,483 I loved JonBenét, and she died accidentally. 545 00:24:28,016 --> 00:24:30,226 So the Boulder district attorney 546 00:24:30,266 --> 00:24:32,396 has this guy arrested in Thailand, 547 00:24:32,433 --> 00:24:35,353 John Mark Karr, flies him back to the U.S. 548 00:24:35,383 --> 00:24:37,103 for questioning. 549 00:24:37,133 --> 00:24:39,483 Woman #7: With immigration and customs enforcement agents 550 00:24:40,016 --> 00:24:42,046 at his side, murder suspect John Mark Karr 551 00:24:42,083 --> 00:24:44,133 made the 15-hour journey from Bangkok 552 00:24:44,166 --> 00:24:48,226 to Los Angeles Sunday aboard a Thai Airways jet. 553 00:24:48,266 --> 00:24:51,146 He's going to be fingerprinted and photographed. 554 00:24:51,183 --> 00:24:53,373 We will make his mug shot available. 555 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,000 [ Indistinct conversations ] 556 00:24:57,033 --> 00:25:00,153 So the district attorney is very optimistic 557 00:25:00,183 --> 00:25:03,373 that they have finally found JonBenét's killer, 558 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,170 but there were others connected to the case 559 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,170 who were more skeptical. 560 00:25:10,366 --> 00:25:13,196 There was still a huge faction of the American public 561 00:25:13,233 --> 00:25:15,403 that believed the family was somehow involved. 562 00:25:15,433 --> 00:25:17,123 This felt like it tied it up 563 00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:20,030 with a bow a little bit too neatly for people, I think. 564 00:25:20,066 --> 00:25:22,996 Bob Grant, what do you make of all of this? 565 00:25:23,033 --> 00:25:27,433 Larry, it's another bizarre turn in a bizarre case. 566 00:25:27,466 --> 00:25:29,066 I'm withholding judgment 567 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:31,130 until I see the results of the DNA test. 568 00:25:31,166 --> 00:25:33,176 I think that tells the story. 569 00:25:33,216 --> 00:25:38,396 I always knew that whatever this guy had to say 570 00:25:38,433 --> 00:25:40,083 wasn't going to hold water 571 00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:44,146 unless he was the source of that DNA in the panties. 572 00:25:44,183 --> 00:25:46,233 There was a tiny amount of unidentified DNA 573 00:25:46,266 --> 00:25:49,166 on the waistband of JonBenét Ramsey's long johns. 574 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,230 Physical evidence is what's going to rule the day. 575 00:25:51,266 --> 00:25:54,376 Physical evidence is what's going to close this case. 576 00:25:54,416 --> 00:25:56,446 Hill: If the DNA on JonBenét's waistband 577 00:25:56,483 --> 00:25:58,303 was a match with John Mark Karr, 578 00:25:58,333 --> 00:26:00,433 well, then, police have their killer. 579 00:26:08,233 --> 00:26:12,483 The D.A. tests this little teeny bit of DNA 580 00:26:13,016 --> 00:26:14,446 that was found on JonBenét's waistband 581 00:26:14,483 --> 00:26:17,483 against John Mark Karr's DNA, 582 00:26:18,016 --> 00:26:21,066 waiting for the big connection 583 00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:23,480 and found that they didn't match. 584 00:26:24,016 --> 00:26:27,476 So after all of the drama and all the effort 585 00:26:28,016 --> 00:26:31,096 that went into arresting this guy, 586 00:26:31,133 --> 00:26:34,483 they then concluded he didn't do it. 587 00:26:35,016 --> 00:26:37,266 Woman #8: Court documents show investigators were unable 588 00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,080 to place Karr in Boulder at the time of the murder, 589 00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:42,476 his family claiming he was with them in Georgia 590 00:26:43,016 --> 00:26:45,176 and most importantly, Karr's DNA 591 00:26:45,216 --> 00:26:47,296 just tested at Denver's crime lab 592 00:26:47,333 --> 00:26:50,373 was not a match to the DNA found on JonBenét. 593 00:26:52,316 --> 00:26:54,246 PRENDERGAST: I think he may have welcomed 594 00:26:54,283 --> 00:26:55,323 a lot of the attention. 595 00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:57,430 I don't know why someone would confess to a crime 596 00:26:57,466 --> 00:26:59,116 they didn't commit 597 00:26:59,150 --> 00:27:03,250 unless they just basically wanted to be famous or infamous. 598 00:27:03,283 --> 00:27:04,453 I can't speak to his motives, 599 00:27:04,483 --> 00:27:08,183 but he was still confessing after the D.A.'s office 600 00:27:08,216 --> 00:27:12,016 had pretty much satisfied itself that he wasn't the guy. 601 00:27:12,050 --> 00:27:16,130 He wanted his, as Andy Warhol said, 15 minutes of fame. 602 00:27:16,166 --> 00:27:18,246 This is a terrible way to go about getting it. 603 00:27:18,283 --> 00:27:21,153 Grant: Turned out he was just a nutcase 604 00:27:21,183 --> 00:27:22,383 who needed a ride back from Thailand 605 00:27:22,416 --> 00:27:26,316 and got one at the expense of the state. 606 00:27:26,350 --> 00:27:28,400 Man #4: With that, Karr becomes simply a man 607 00:27:28,433 --> 00:27:31,223 obsessed with the murder of JonBenét Ramsey 608 00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:35,280 who fabricated a story and tried to transplant himself into it. 609 00:27:35,316 --> 00:27:39,126 As for the case, it remains unsolved. 610 00:27:39,166 --> 00:27:43,226 John Mark Karr walks free. 611 00:27:43,266 --> 00:27:48,326 What was the Colorado district attorney thinking? 612 00:27:48,366 --> 00:27:50,346 Prendergast: She said he was a credible suspect, 613 00:27:50,383 --> 00:27:53,303 and I don't think he was ever a credible suspect. 614 00:27:53,333 --> 00:27:56,073 You know, there should have been some effort to determine 615 00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:59,070 whether he was even in Colorado when this happened. 616 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:00,080 Mr. Karr. 617 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:02,446 It was a tremendous embarrassment 618 00:28:02,483 --> 00:28:04,483 for the Boulder D.A.'s office. 619 00:28:05,016 --> 00:28:06,326 Tremendous, and the person at the time 620 00:28:06,366 --> 00:28:08,126 who was in charge was Mary Lacy. 621 00:28:08,166 --> 00:28:12,016 It was a huge, huge gaffe on her part. 622 00:28:12,050 --> 00:28:15,030 Now, to her credit, I will say this. 623 00:28:15,066 --> 00:28:18,076 She held, I think, the mother of all news conferences 624 00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:22,066 and stayed and answered, you know, every question once, 625 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:24,450 you know, she realized she was wrong. 626 00:28:24,483 --> 00:28:26,453 I want to make it absolutely clear up front. 627 00:28:26,483 --> 00:28:28,153 The decisions were mine. 628 00:28:28,183 --> 00:28:29,423 The responsibility is mine, 629 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:33,470 and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case. 630 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,130 Last night as I was preparing to leave, 631 00:28:36,166 --> 00:28:39,446 I received a telephone call from a gentleman in Longmont. 632 00:28:39,483 --> 00:28:42,073 He said, "You should be tarred and feathered 633 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:43,170 and run out of town." 634 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,220 And it's not just one. 635 00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:46,170 There were a lot of calls like that. 636 00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:51,130 After the John Mark Karr fiasco, 637 00:28:51,166 --> 00:28:54,046 the story went quiet for a few years. 638 00:28:54,083 --> 00:28:56,223 In 2008, the case was back in the news 639 00:28:56,250 --> 00:28:59,230 when new technology was used to retest the clothes 640 00:28:59,266 --> 00:29:02,446 that JonBenét Ramsey was wearing the night she was murdered. 641 00:29:05,333 --> 00:29:09,103 Grace: Tonight newly discovered DNA evidence emerges 642 00:29:09,133 --> 00:29:12,423 by use of a new and highly sensitive DNA procedure 643 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:15,030 called touch DNA. 644 00:29:15,066 --> 00:29:17,226 Will it finally crack the murder case 645 00:29:17,266 --> 00:29:21,346 of 6-year-old Colorado beauty queen JonBenét Ramsey? 646 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:25,216 The DNA profile that we obtained 647 00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:27,220 is attributed to an unknown male. 648 00:29:27,250 --> 00:29:31,180 Man #9: Newly discovered DNA evidence does not match 649 00:29:31,216 --> 00:29:34,296 any Ramsey family member. 650 00:29:34,333 --> 00:29:36,473 Velez-Mitchell: That same district attorney 651 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,180 who arrested John Mark Karr 652 00:29:38,216 --> 00:29:42,076 also gave a lot more weight than her critics did 653 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:45,476 to new DNA testing, and based on that, 654 00:29:46,016 --> 00:29:51,066 she formally exonerated the entire Ramsey family. 655 00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:52,400 Man #9: The Boulder D.A. has released a letter 656 00:29:52,433 --> 00:29:55,473 officially clearing the Ramsey family of any involvement 657 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,400 in the December 1996 death of the 6-year-old. 658 00:29:58,433 --> 00:30:01,083 The DNA from the male did not match anyone 659 00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:03,376 in law enforcement DNA databases. 660 00:30:05,233 --> 00:30:08,103 Velez-Mitchell: "This new scientific evidence convinces us 661 00:30:08,133 --> 00:30:09,353 that it is appropriate, 662 00:30:09,383 --> 00:30:11,403 given the circumstances of this case, 663 00:30:11,433 --> 00:30:15,283 to state that we do not consider your immediate family, 664 00:30:15,316 --> 00:30:19,146 including you, your wife, Patsy, and your son, Burke, 665 00:30:19,183 --> 00:30:23,123 to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime." 666 00:30:23,150 --> 00:30:25,370 I look at it as a congratulatory letter to the Ramseys. 667 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,320 "Congratulations! You're off the hook." 668 00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:29,380 So good day for John Ramsey, good day for Patsy, 669 00:30:29,416 --> 00:30:32,076 that they have a prosecutor now on record 670 00:30:32,116 --> 00:30:34,396 as saying that the prosecutor believes 671 00:30:34,433 --> 00:30:38,003 that there is physical evidence that someone else did it 672 00:30:38,033 --> 00:30:40,003 and that the parents weren't involved. 673 00:30:41,483 --> 00:30:43,233 Hill: What Mary Lacy did next was, 674 00:30:43,266 --> 00:30:46,146 she actually apologized to the Ramsey family 675 00:30:46,183 --> 00:30:49,303 for them ever being considered suspects. 676 00:30:49,333 --> 00:30:51,303 "To the extent that we may have contributed 677 00:30:51,333 --> 00:30:53,283 in any way to the public perception 678 00:30:53,316 --> 00:30:55,996 that you might have been involved in this crime, 679 00:30:56,033 --> 00:30:57,233 I am deeply sorry. 680 00:30:57,266 --> 00:30:59,246 No innocent person should have to endure 681 00:30:59,283 --> 00:31:03,103 such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion." 682 00:31:03,133 --> 00:31:06,083 There are a lot of people who question whether this touch DNA 683 00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:07,446 was enough to clear these people, 684 00:31:07,483 --> 00:31:11,233 much less apologize to them. 685 00:31:11,266 --> 00:31:14,466 I was unimpressed with the decision to write the letter, 686 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,120 and I was unimpressed with the letter, 687 00:31:17,150 --> 00:31:21,270 and from what I know about touch DNA, 688 00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:24,450 it simply is not reliable enough 689 00:31:24,483 --> 00:31:27,323 to support the kind of decision 690 00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:31,080 that was made by District Attorney Lacy. 691 00:31:31,116 --> 00:31:33,996 Woodward: Those who did not like it that she had written 692 00:31:34,033 --> 00:31:37,033 that letter said, 693 00:31:37,066 --> 00:31:40,076 "Hey, if it is proven to be the Ramseys, 694 00:31:40,116 --> 00:31:42,396 you've written a letter of apology. 695 00:31:42,433 --> 00:31:45,223 How are we going to take this to court?" 696 00:31:45,250 --> 00:31:47,430 I think the case had many more serious problems 697 00:31:47,466 --> 00:31:50,146 than that letter. 698 00:31:50,183 --> 00:31:51,423 Camerota: So that was it. 699 00:31:51,450 --> 00:31:56,200 After a dozen years of being under the microscope, 700 00:31:56,233 --> 00:32:01,153 then the entire Ramsey family was in the clear, 701 00:32:01,183 --> 00:32:05,403 but that was about to change in a big way. 702 00:32:05,433 --> 00:32:08,053 Bombshell tonight in the last hours. 703 00:32:08,083 --> 00:32:09,303 We get proof. 704 00:32:09,333 --> 00:32:14,303 A Colorado grand jury votes to indict JonBenét's parents, 705 00:32:14,333 --> 00:32:17,023 John and Patsy Ramsey. 706 00:32:23,083 --> 00:32:26,133 Camerota: After the Ramsey family was officially cleared 707 00:32:26,166 --> 00:32:30,416 by this district attorney, then the case goes cold again. 708 00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:34,470 And then in 2013, 709 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,330 this local news reporter gets a tip, 710 00:32:37,366 --> 00:32:41,116 and he finds out that the grand jury decision 711 00:32:41,150 --> 00:32:45,130 14 years earlier was not what it seemed. 712 00:32:46,350 --> 00:32:48,300 Zesbaugh: So a reporter on the case, Charlie Brennan, 713 00:32:48,333 --> 00:32:50,073 said, "I want to see the records. 714 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:52,230 I want to see what the grand jury did in secret," 715 00:32:52,266 --> 00:32:54,126 because he had been hearing from grand jurors 716 00:32:54,166 --> 00:32:58,066 who said they did decide to indict in the case. 717 00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:00,170 Costello: So that reporter, Charlie Brennan, 718 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,170 he wanted to get ahold of the grand jury's decision, 719 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,070 but to do that, he had to sue the D.A.'s office. 720 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:09,030 Zesbaugh: And I don't think most of us could believe it. 721 00:33:09,066 --> 00:33:12,366 He won, and they unsealed those grand jury records in 2013, 722 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,170 and we got to see the indictment for ourselves. 723 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,230 It was quite illuminating. 724 00:33:18,266 --> 00:33:20,046 This morning, we have new details 725 00:33:20,083 --> 00:33:21,323 in the case of JonBenét Ramsey. 726 00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:24,100 A local paper, "The Boulder Daily Camera," 727 00:33:24,133 --> 00:33:26,133 reports that a grand jury voted 728 00:33:26,166 --> 00:33:28,176 to indict John and Patsy Ramsey 729 00:33:28,216 --> 00:33:30,996 for abuse that led to JonBenét's death. 730 00:33:31,033 --> 00:33:34,353 Woman #10: But the district attorney declined to prosecute. 731 00:33:34,383 --> 00:33:36,333 Costello: So what that means is the grand jury 732 00:33:36,366 --> 00:33:39,226 decides to indict the Ramseys, 733 00:33:39,266 --> 00:33:41,366 but the D.A. discards their decision 734 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,420 and decides not to proceed. 735 00:33:43,450 --> 00:33:46,030 Man #5: The grand jury said both of the girl's parents, 736 00:33:46,066 --> 00:33:48,116 John and Patsy... 737 00:34:03,050 --> 00:34:06,420 This was explosive because it totally contradicted 738 00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:09,070 what Alex Hunter, the D.A. at the time, 739 00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:12,030 had actually told people back in 1999. 740 00:34:12,066 --> 00:34:15,046 I and my prosecution task force 741 00:34:15,083 --> 00:34:18,203 believe we do not have sufficient evidence 742 00:34:18,233 --> 00:34:22,133 to warrant the filing of charges against anyone 743 00:34:22,166 --> 00:34:26,216 who has been investigated at this time. 744 00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:27,320 Hill: Alex Hunter essentially 745 00:34:27,350 --> 00:34:30,070 decided to veto the grand jury's decision. 746 00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:32,320 Now, prosecutors do have that option, 747 00:34:32,350 --> 00:34:34,120 but the issue here is a lot of people 748 00:34:34,150 --> 00:34:36,480 felt he hadn't been entirely up-front. 749 00:34:37,016 --> 00:34:38,276 The public was misled. 750 00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:41,366 We were told that the grand jury met for all these months 751 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,030 and there was no indictment, but, in fact, the grand jury 752 00:34:45,066 --> 00:34:48,146 had wanted to file charges in this case. 753 00:34:48,183 --> 00:34:50,153 That was something that was kept away from the public 754 00:34:50,183 --> 00:34:52,053 for more than a decade. 755 00:34:52,083 --> 00:34:54,333 Zesbaugh: Yeah. It'd be fascinating to know 756 00:34:54,366 --> 00:34:55,996 what they found out 757 00:34:56,033 --> 00:34:58,433 because the grand jury interviewed so many people. 758 00:34:58,466 --> 00:35:00,126 The judge took a look at it 759 00:35:00,166 --> 00:35:04,426 and decided only to release 4 pages of some 18 pages 760 00:35:04,466 --> 00:35:07,346 because they were the ones with the basic charges on them 761 00:35:07,383 --> 00:35:11,183 and the ones that were signed by the grand jury foreman. 762 00:35:11,216 --> 00:35:15,146 So what was in those 14 pages that wasn't released 763 00:35:15,183 --> 00:35:17,153 when all this other information was released 764 00:35:17,183 --> 00:35:18,403 about the grand jury meeting? 765 00:35:18,433 --> 00:35:20,003 I wonder if we'll ever see that. 766 00:35:20,033 --> 00:35:21,333 It would be fascinating. 767 00:35:21,366 --> 00:35:23,016 What else don't we know? 768 00:35:23,050 --> 00:35:25,050 I mean, where's the rest of these pages 769 00:35:25,083 --> 00:35:28,483 that went with this, where the grand jury explained, 770 00:35:29,016 --> 00:35:32,196 you know, what the reasoning was behind these charges, 771 00:35:32,233 --> 00:35:35,103 what the specific acts that were committed 772 00:35:35,133 --> 00:35:37,483 that led to these charges? 773 00:35:38,016 --> 00:35:39,446 And we don't have those, to this day. 774 00:35:41,483 --> 00:35:43,423 I'm not particularly happy that the entire thing 775 00:35:43,450 --> 00:35:45,150 was not disclosed. 776 00:35:45,183 --> 00:35:46,373 We're not going to get a judge 777 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,400 to order the rest of those pages released, 778 00:35:51,433 --> 00:35:54,023 at least not before I retire. 779 00:35:56,250 --> 00:35:59,020 Cabell: Again, it's a mystery at this point. 780 00:35:59,050 --> 00:36:03,430 Do you truly think the perpetrator will be found? 781 00:36:03,466 --> 00:36:05,116 Yes. 782 00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:07,350 There was one other person in the house that night 783 00:36:07,383 --> 00:36:10,373 besides Patsy and John and JonBenét, 784 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,250 and that is JonBenét's older brother, Burke, 785 00:36:13,283 --> 00:36:15,403 who was then 9 years old. 786 00:36:15,433 --> 00:36:19,123 He was officially cleared in 2008. 787 00:36:19,150 --> 00:36:22,070 And he has never gone public, 788 00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:24,330 which has led to a lot of speculation 789 00:36:24,366 --> 00:36:27,366 about what he saw and what he knew that night. 790 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,280 Robinson: Even if Burke were to have some miraculous memory 791 00:36:31,316 --> 00:36:33,426 that could lead to the arrest of a suspect, 792 00:36:33,466 --> 00:36:35,426 that information would be so dated 793 00:36:35,466 --> 00:36:38,476 and so questionable that most criminal defense attorneys 794 00:36:39,016 --> 00:36:41,166 would have a heyday with it at trial. 795 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,080 It's very problematic to be using information 796 00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:46,326 that would be so stale from an individual 797 00:36:46,366 --> 00:36:48,346 who did not remember it before. 798 00:36:48,383 --> 00:36:53,073 The colder the case gets, the colder the trail gets. 799 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:55,420 Burke finally broke his silence 800 00:36:55,450 --> 00:37:00,270 just before the 20th anniversary of his sister's death. 801 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:03,380 He decided that he would do a sit-down on the -- 802 00:37:03,416 --> 00:37:05,476 Dr. Phil's TV show. 803 00:37:06,016 --> 00:37:08,216 Did you hit your sister over the head 804 00:37:08,250 --> 00:37:11,350 with a baseball bat or a flashlight? 805 00:37:11,383 --> 00:37:13,433 Absolutely not. 806 00:37:13,466 --> 00:37:15,216 If someone in your house did, 807 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:17,330 do you think you would have heard it? 808 00:37:17,366 --> 00:37:21,246 Probably, yeah. 809 00:37:21,283 --> 00:37:23,073 Prendergast: You know, everybody has got a theory. 810 00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:24,380 There's the Burke group, the John group, 811 00:37:24,416 --> 00:37:26,416 the Patsy group, the intruder group, 812 00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:28,170 and they all feel very passionately 813 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,330 that they're right and everybody else is wrong. 814 00:37:30,366 --> 00:37:31,396 This isn't rocket science here. 815 00:37:31,433 --> 00:37:34,303 So you think she was disciplining the child. 816 00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:36,003 It got out of hand? 817 00:37:36,033 --> 00:37:39,373 My guess is, yeah, there was some sort of explosive encounter 818 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,030 between mother and daughter that resulted in this child dead. 819 00:37:43,066 --> 00:37:45,066 To those of you who may want to ask, 820 00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:46,330 let me address very directly. 821 00:37:46,366 --> 00:37:51,216 I did not kill my daughter, JonBenét. 822 00:37:51,250 --> 00:37:53,100 There have also been innuendos 823 00:37:53,133 --> 00:37:56,383 that she has been or was sexually molested. 824 00:37:56,416 --> 00:37:58,176 They are totally false. 825 00:37:58,216 --> 00:38:04,046 I am appalled that anyone would think that John 826 00:38:04,083 --> 00:38:06,333 or I would be involved 827 00:38:06,366 --> 00:38:12,246 in such a hideous, heinous crime, 828 00:38:12,283 --> 00:38:17,373 but let me assure you that I did not kill JonBenét. 829 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:26,380 ♪♪ 830 00:38:26,416 --> 00:38:28,346 Prendergast: I think from the very start, there was a sense, 831 00:38:28,383 --> 00:38:33,223 "This case might just become a cold case." 832 00:38:33,250 --> 00:38:37,020 And it -- it has become, you know, 833 00:38:37,050 --> 00:38:39,170 the mother of all cold cases at this point. 834 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,480 The prospect that we're ever going to see a, you know, 835 00:38:43,016 --> 00:38:44,326 a legal resolution of this case 836 00:38:44,366 --> 00:38:47,396 I think is very, very dim at this point. 837 00:38:50,250 --> 00:38:51,330 Zesbaugh: Had you asked me then, 838 00:38:51,366 --> 00:38:53,426 "Will this be a story in 20 years?" 839 00:38:53,466 --> 00:38:55,316 I would have laughed and said, "Absolutely not. 840 00:38:55,350 --> 00:38:58,200 There will be an arrest in this case and probably quickly." 841 00:38:58,233 --> 00:39:00,123 No one could have foreseen what happened 842 00:39:00,150 --> 00:39:01,470 over the next 20 years. 843 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,000 I wouldn't be surprised if we never know 844 00:39:05,033 --> 00:39:06,303 what actually happened in that basement, 845 00:39:06,333 --> 00:39:09,303 and it will always stay a whodunit. 846 00:39:09,333 --> 00:39:11,433 Woodward: This is a little girl 847 00:39:11,466 --> 00:39:14,426 who should be in her mid-20s right now, 848 00:39:14,466 --> 00:39:20,116 and we're all dancing around about JonBenét 849 00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:22,280 and trying to figure out what happened. 850 00:39:22,316 --> 00:39:25,276 And what happened is she's dead, 851 00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:29,076 and nobody knows who did it, and nobody's solved the case. 852 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,370 HLN did reach out to the Boulder county D.A.'s office 853 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,350 with a freedom of information request 854 00:39:35,383 --> 00:39:38,023 for the rest of the grand jury findings, 855 00:39:38,050 --> 00:39:39,470 but a representative denied our request, 856 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,030 saying they'd would be in contempt of court 857 00:39:42,066 --> 00:39:44,216 if they released the additional pages. 858 00:39:44,250 --> 00:39:46,050 Today, the murder of JonBenét Ramsey 859 00:39:46,083 --> 00:39:48,133 is officially considered a cold case. 860 00:39:48,166 --> 00:39:51,046 The Boulder PD has detectives assigned to it, 861 00:39:51,083 --> 00:39:53,173 and they do follow leads when they get them. 862 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,420 But so far, they have only been dead ends. 863 00:39:56,450 --> 00:39:58,080 Let's hope that some day, 864 00:39:58,116 --> 00:40:01,116 there will be justice for JonBenét Ramsey. 865 00:40:01,150 --> 00:40:03,020 I'm Hill Harper. 866 00:40:03,050 --> 00:40:04,180 Thanks for watching. 69697

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