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[three bells]
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DIRECTOR: Well, let's have a -- I'm ready to go when he sits down.
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PRODUCER: Speeding. Nine-one.
[clapper]
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[WOODRING clears throat]
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Uh, I'm getting some kind of a buzz.
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-A buzz?
-Yeah, well --
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WOODRING: Oh, wait a minute, I hear it too.
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-Is it an airplane?
-It's an airplane.
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-Or something.-Yeah, it's an airplane.
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[three bells]
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There it is.
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I'll take this opportunity to sharpen some pencils.
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Mind your ears.
[electric pencil sharpener noise]
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So I -- I honestly can't remember, I'm not
trying to belabor a point, but just if --
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In case we use any of the Brahman stuff:
What is Brahman?
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Brahman is... the ultimate reality.
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The sum total of everything.
It's the cause of everything.
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One... it has many names in Sanskrit.
One of them is Sat-cit-ānanda.
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Which means existence, knowledge, bliss.
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With the implication that they're the abs--
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That... they are the absolute forms
of existence, knowledge, and bliss.
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Brahman doesn't exist, it is existence.
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It doesn't think or know,
it is thought and knowledge.
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There's nothing that exists outside it.
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And one of the ways they--
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One of the designations or categorizations they make is that...
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They say that when it's inactive, they call it Brahman,
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and when it's active, it's manifested as...
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Prakriti, or... um...
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Actually, more accurately as the
counterpart to Brahman, is Shakti,
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the female principle of creation...
the universe, the physical universe.
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It's like...
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One of the analogies they use is they say...
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it's like a spider brings the web out of itself,
and then it lives on the web.
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They say that Brahman brings the universe out of itself,
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and then it inhabits the universe as consciousness.
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My name is Jim, and I am a cartoonist.
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I've been told that I would be within my rights
to call myself an artist instead of a cartoonist,
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since much of what I draw is not particularly cartoony
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in the generally accepted sense of that word.
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But I don't see that as a promotion.
I'd much rather be a cartoonist.
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The cartooning tradition is magnificent,
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and I am honored to be considered a practitioner.
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What is cartooning?
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I'm not... I've pondered that question myself:
What is cartooning? How does it differ from...
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...any other kind of, uh...
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...fanciful or imaginative drawing?
I'm not sure what the distinction is.
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00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,140
The word's definition, cartoon, is pretty straightforward.
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This is the Webster's definition.
There's no synonym for it.
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Imaginative drawing, in an idiosyncratic style,
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with didactic intent,
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and a non-negotiable, built-in element of humor.
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If the humor isn't there, it's not a cartoon.
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By the way, those
figures turned out to be true.
[laughter]
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It's hard work... learning to be a cartoonist.
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Then it's hard work drawing the cartoons,
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and then it's hard work to make a living at them,
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00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,520
and then you have to keep growing and keep developing,
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so you can keep saying and doing new things.
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The whole point of doing cartoons is to distort reality
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for editorial or entertainment
purposes, so that...
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you can... impose your reality on the readers,
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and make them see and think the things
that you want them to see and think.
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I should probably start this self-promotional puff piece
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with some drawings from my childhood,
but I destroyed all of them years ago,
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so I don't have any.
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00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,819
Or at least I didn't until recently,
when my brother sent me a package of them
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he found in the ancestral home after my father's death.
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This was in that package.
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It is the very oldest picture I have that I drew.
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It's a drawing of a horrid, jabbering little man made of electricity,
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who used to come into my bedroom and terrorize me when I was a little boy.
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He told me his name over and over:
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Jiggety Jatters. The worst name.
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Seeing it again rekindled vivid memories of the disorienting hell
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my earliest years were.
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Simply put, I had a lot of perceptual problems,
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which I still have to some extent.
When I was a little kid,
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I had a hard time telling the difference between dream and reality.
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I had a hard time telling the difference between animated cartoons
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and films and reality. They all looked the same to me.
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I have a condition called prosopagnosia,
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which makes it so that I
can't recognize faces readily,
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which caused me all kinds of trouble when I was courting my wife.
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I knew who she was, but I couldn't tell what she looked like.
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I also, when I was a little kid,
experienced real paranoia, which is no joke.
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And I had a lot of other perceptual problems.
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It was all kind of fun and stimulating and interesting to me,
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because I was kind of strangely tough-minded about it all.
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I didn't feel victimized by it, I didn't feel scared of it.
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I learned not only to accept being frightened, but to enjoy it,
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and to enjoy almost any unexpected and bizarre situation.
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For over a year,
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I went to bed certain that my parents
were going to come in and kill me.
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It was sheer paranoia,
and I liked it.
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I would go to bed at night, trying to stay awake as long as I could,
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and listening to them through the door,
because I thought they were out there
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waiting to come in and kill me in my sleep.
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And one day I mentioned this to my friend next door,
and he mentioned it to his mother,
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and she told my mother,
and my mother went crazy.
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Crazy how?
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Crazy with, uh...
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...anguish over me, volume two hundred,
number...
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...three thousand.
It was just one more...
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...straw on the burden that she had to carry of
being disappointed in me.
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This is really not such a
great thing to be talking about.
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There was something not quite right with my mind.
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Almost every time I closed my eyes,
I saw... something.
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Sometimes it was a scary face that would not go away.
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Frequently it was a huge staring eye.
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Sometimes it was headless animals.
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Once it was a screaming golden lion
being devoured by maggots.
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Sometimes these apparitions were benign,
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like the brightly colored,
radially symmetrical shapes
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that hovered in the air over my bed.
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When I first heard about angels, I thought that
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these were what was being referred to.
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This is an image...
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...it's a single-page compendium of memorable events,
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circumstances, props, and scenics from my childhood.
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When I was about five,
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I was lying in my bed,
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and a man came into the room with
a big wooden crate on a handcart,
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and he stood it up, and the crate opened up,
and my mother was standing in there.
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And she was naked, and she was covered
with little red spots like chickenpox,
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and her hair was in her eyes so I couldn't see it,
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00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,219
and she had this rictus grin on her face.
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And it scared me so much I put my head under the covers,
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and when I came out, it was gone.
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So, I went out to the kitchen and
I asked her where the crate was,
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because I wanted it to play with.
And she said, "What crate?"
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And I said, "The crate you came into the house in
this morning. And where did the red spots go?"
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And we had another in a continuing
series of painful conversations,
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where basically she just wanted me
to tell her what the hell was wrong with me.
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-Did you often hear the refrain, "What's wrong with you?"
-Oh, Jesus.
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I heard that, my mother screamed that at me,
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probably ten thousand times
during the course of my life.
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She also screamed,
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"I am sick, sick, sick to death of you!"
And that turned out to be prophetic,
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because she died at the age
of forty-seven, of cancer,
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after a long, long process that involved...
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many surgeries, and... I mean,
I can understand why my parents
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didn't want to put up with any nonsense from me.
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They really had a full plate.
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00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,940
I think they had an expectation, because their
lives were going really well, you know, it was...
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after World War Two. My dad had a good job in the
aerospace/computer business... industry.
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And my mom was a housewife.
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00:10:39,408 --> 00:10:43,548
They had a nice tract house in the hills of Burbank, and...
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everything was kind of going along.
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They went out and they heard Bobby Darin at nightclubs,
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and went dancing, and they had a great old time,
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and then I came along and kind
of put the kibosh on all that,
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because I was a weird kid,
and that isn't what they wanted.
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They wanted Beaver Cleaver.
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In fact, my mother even compared me
unfavorably to Beaver Cleaver,
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00:11:03,050 --> 00:11:06,000
and asked me why I couldn't be more like him.
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00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,619
I was just a weirdo, and they just didn't like it.
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00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,739
I was interested in monsters.
I was interested in the Three Stooges, and...
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00:11:14,047 --> 00:11:15,819
...cartoons and things like that,
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and I didn't know how to act,
and I didn't know when to shut up.
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00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,185
And I don't think I did shut up
very much. I was a real talker.
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But... you know, it just became an
established fact. Oh yeah, you know --
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00:11:29,965 --> 00:11:32,520
So-and-so is smart, so-and-so is talented,
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00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,720
so-and-so is ath... athletic...
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00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,265
Jimmy, he's just... I don't know what he is, he's a nut.
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There's something wrong with that kid.
There's something wrong with that kid.
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Oh, Jimmy.
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Oh God, Jimmy, no!
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Not... oh, Jimmy.
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I'm mostly sorry that my parents
had such a rotten time of it.
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That's my major concern. I got through
everything okay, they didn't.
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00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,885
They deserved better than what they got out of life.
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00:12:07,290 --> 00:12:10,240
But in a way, that wasn't
anybody's fault.
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00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,199
I was a little kid in the fifties,
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00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:16,520
and I've only recently realized
how terrified my parents were.
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00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:22,920
You know, they lived under the shadow of nuclear annihilation.
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00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,899
They thought that bomb was going to fall any afternoon.
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00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,219
They taught their children that that
bomb was going to fall any minute.
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00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,374
They wished they had a fallout shelter.
182
00:12:31,475 --> 00:12:36,419
They were afraid that Russian soldiers were going to
parachute out of the sky and take over Los Angeles.
183
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,299
They had just managed to attain a really glorious way of living,
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00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,840
and then along came all these monsters that wanted to destroy it.
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Here came Little Richard.
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00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,000
That, they didn't need.
187
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,939
Here came civil rights marches, and beatniks, and communists.
188
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:58,000
They were scared to death of communism,
rock and roll, homosexuality.
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00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,440
I think their chiefest fear was that I was gay,
and they had no reason to think that.
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00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:07,840
I never manifested anything
like that, but if they...
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00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,219
...saw me looking at a magazine and there
was a men's underwear ad on it,
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00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,440
they would say
"Why are you looking at that?"
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I'd go, "What?" "You know what I'm
talking about." "No, whu-- whu--?"
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00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,815
I didn't know what they were talking about.
I was just a little kid, you know. I had no idea.
195
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,000
I remember in those days, everybody
referred to the Beatles as "The Boys."
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00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,099
"Oh, what will The Boys do next?"
197
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,780
"The Boys really seemed to enjoy their trip to America."
198
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,539
And one time when I referred to the Beatles as The Boys,
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00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,339
my mother thought that I was expressing an
appreciation for boys in general,
200
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,520
and she just unloaded on me for saying it,
and I had no idea why at the time.
201
00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:54,215
They were afraid of everything that made
the 1950s the pivotal time that it was.
202
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,019
And I guess they were hoping that I would
be some kind of comfort and joy to them,
203
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,674
but instead I... it's like I had absorbed everything bad
204
00:14:00,775 --> 00:14:02,939
that was happening and was
reflecting it back at them,
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00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,139
so they gave me a lot of grief.
My dad brought home
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00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,419
this 8-millimeter silent
cartoon called Boy Meets Dog.
207
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,499
It was in black and white, the version
I had. And in this cartoon,
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00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,339
the mean father, who won't let
the little boy keep a dog,
209
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,939
gets badly punished by this machinery which
has been built to punish mean fathers.
210
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,699
And I liked that so much that he
took the film away and destroyed it,
211
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,699
because he didn't want me to get
any subversive ideas like that.
212
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,099
So that's how tightly wound up my folks were,
and how concerned they were about me.
213
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,419
They wouldn't let me watch the Three Stooges,
or read Mad magazine,
214
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,200
or Famous Monsters of Filmland,
or anything like that. And...
215
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,899
...it's a painful reminder to me of
how much grief I caused my folks.
216
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,600
That's the only thing that I regret
about the whole miserable situation,
217
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,215
is that... it was rough on my parents.
218
00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,739
Now, obviously all of these things that
happened to me when I was a kid,
219
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:04,699
(the apparitions, the hallucinations, the voices)
there's not... it's not unique to me.
220
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,239
Lots and lots and lots of
young people have got that,
221
00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:09,499
lots and lots of young people
have it worse than I had it,
222
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,685
and lots of people have
worse when they grow up.
223
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,189
But... the people who have it and outgrow
it, tend to want to put it behind them,
224
00:15:17,290 --> 00:15:19,670
because it doesn't do them
any good in their life.
225
00:15:19,797 --> 00:15:25,200
I decided early on that these
sizzling, decal-like images
226
00:15:25,575 --> 00:15:28,229
were what I wanted. I wanted
things that had that charge.
227
00:15:28,330 --> 00:15:30,659
I wanted things that horrified me and
228
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,539
knocked me off my feet
and filled up my mind,
229
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,099
and seemed to indicate something...
immense waiting in the wings.
230
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,200
That was it for me, that is
precisely what I wanted.
231
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,139
There's a book... I just happen
to have it right here...
232
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,240
The Golden Book of Science, that
my folks gave me when I was about eight.
233
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,139
And this book... you can see how
dog-eared and beat up it is.
234
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,939
This book was my Bible, for
years and years and years.
235
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,539
I would look through this book, and look
at these pictures, and hear music,
236
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,320
at some of the vistas contained in here.
237
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,199
Ulti-- I guess what it really did is it
opened my eyes to the power of art,
238
00:16:05,300 --> 00:16:09,619
because this guy obviously put a lot of
work and a lot of soul into his pictures.
239
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,600
He tried to make them as good as he could,
and he tried to make them loving.
240
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,699
I responded to that in a
kind of over-the-top way.
241
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,040
I thought it was a mystical document.
242
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,119
There's a picture of a sliced watermelon in here, and...
243
00:16:22,275 --> 00:16:24,985
when I used to look at it,
I would hear a flute playing.
244
00:16:25,085 --> 00:16:30,920
And I thought: "Oh yeah, there's something idyllic and
melancholy and sweet about this particular thing."
245
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,299
Sometimes those things just had
a kind of a glowing resonance
246
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,419
that made me feel,oh, I've found a clue,
247
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,139
this is a sign on the trail pointing
in the direction that I want to go to.
248
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,400
Something synced up with my idea of what
it should be, I would say: "There it is!"
249
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,419
And I would become a student of that
thing, or that artist, or that sensation.
250
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,699
And the more I looked at those
things and got into them,
251
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,200
the more I found the answers
that I was looking for.
252
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,400
And then there was this guy,
Boris Artzybasheff.
253
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,440
I remember seeing this in Life magazine
when I was a little boy.
254
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:10,400
His style and his approach went right into
my DNA. He was a superb technician,
255
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,219
and probably what is equally obvious
is that I completely ripped off his
256
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,720
rendering style for my own work.
257
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,619
You can see that he doesn't adhere
to the laws of light and shadow
258
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,439
and reflected light and variegated light
that a normal illustrator would use,
259
00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:33,899
and it really makes it his own. To me,
he was a profound, spiritual prophet.
260
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,819
I found messages in his work
that I used to ponder over.
261
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,999
I used to analyze his work as if I
was looking at... some...
262
00:17:43,173 --> 00:17:47,739
ancient cultural artifact related
directly to my field of interest.
263
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,419
But, again, I think I
projected a lot onto it.
264
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,519
I don't think he was intentionally creating
metaphysical roadmaps of the mind,
265
00:17:55,925 --> 00:17:57,600
...which is how I took it.
266
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,700
Does it have to be intentional?
267
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,819
No, I don't think it has to be intentional,
but if you're looking for... clues,
268
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,340
and evidence, and a sense that other
people actually know something,
269
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,240
you want it to be intentional.
270
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,600
You don't want it to, uh...
271
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,359
You don't want people to be sort of
accidentally pushing your buttons
272
00:18:19,460 --> 00:18:21,738
without knowing that they're
doing it. You want them --
273
00:18:21,839 --> 00:18:23,469
You want to be able to go to them
274
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:28,400
and feel... that they have been down
a road that you want to go down.
275
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,400
Or at least that's how I feel about it.
276
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,200
That's a scary image.
277
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,165
So is that.
278
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,190
But this picture is a kind
of a talisman for me, because
279
00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:47,499
I remember looking at
it, and my mother saying:
280
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,539
"Don't look at that thing so much, you don't...
you know, it's not... it's not okay."
281
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,440
"Communism is not a joke."
282
00:18:53,045 --> 00:18:54,985
And I..."But this drawing's so funny!
283
00:18:55,085 --> 00:18:57,739
It's really scary, and it's really funny."
284
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:03,201
And that scary/funny thing is the dichotomy for me.
It's what I really like.
285
00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:09,539
I have one painting here
that I'm proud of, that
286
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,120
nobody has seen much of, and that is...
287
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,120
this guy here, the so-called Dork from the Black Lagoon.
288
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,740
That was in a show, and it was priced at
eight hundred dollars, and nobody wanted it.
289
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,320
There's... there's a propensity in your artwork
to make the frightening a bit goofy.
290
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,920
Yeah, I guess so. I can see that.
291
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,240
Well, why not.
292
00:19:35,290 --> 00:19:38,700
There's enough genuine, grueling...
[laughing]
293
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,800
...unrelievedly grim,
frightening things out there.
294
00:19:43,171 --> 00:19:46,120
I don't see the need
to add any more to it.
295
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,440
I've always had this interest in...
296
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,219
...peering into things,
taking things apart,
297
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,400
looking into things, trying to figure out
what makes things tick.
298
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,589
And the sense I've had that the world is a
deep well of mystery,
299
00:20:05,690 --> 00:20:08,419
and that the point of life is
to explore it and discover it,
300
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,539
and not simply stay on the surface, is the thing
that runs through all my work.
301
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,989
It's the thing that runs through my life. My work is really
an accurate reflection of my major life's interest,
302
00:20:18,090 --> 00:20:22,379
which is to explore beneath
the surface of things.
303
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,370
That's driven practically everything
I've done all my life.
304
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,739
When I was about four, we had
this black and white television,
305
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,230
and I saw Bimbo's Initiation,
the Fleischer Brother cartoon.
306
00:20:33,755 --> 00:20:36,119
And it changed my life.
307
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:41,610
I felt that it was a documentary about
a side of life that interested me.
308
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,699
And I wanted to go to that world.
309
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,539
I felt like it was a travel poster, or a...a...
310
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,750
a commercial for this
world that I wanted to be in.
311
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,899
I mean, I was just a little kid, and
I had terrible perceptual problems.
312
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,139
I couldn't really tell what I was
looking at a lot of the time.
313
00:21:03,245 --> 00:21:05,759
I couldn't tell what people meant
when they spoke a lot of the time.
314
00:21:05,860 --> 00:21:08,480
I had a hard time recognizing faces.
315
00:21:08,785 --> 00:21:12,299
I had dreams that sometimes
continued when I was awake.
316
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,600
I had hallucinations that I thought were real,
and that I thought other people had.
317
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:22,320
So I was kind of adrift in the
sea of messed-up perceptions.
318
00:21:22,420 --> 00:21:26,019
And when I saw something that looked
sane and straight and normal,
319
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:30,319
and seemed to point to an island of
refuge, like Bimbo's Initiation did,
320
00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:33,619
I thought: "This is it. This
is my way out of this place."
321
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,219
"I don't have to live in this world of
red-faced, screaming adults,
322
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,739
and children I can't relate to, and
toys that don't interest me,
323
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,519
and... subjects that don't interest me.
I can simply go and live with Bimbo,
324
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:50,120
in Bimbo's Initiation-land."
And that's what I wanted.
325
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:12,120
This drawing is called...
326
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,240
Play Date.
327
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,840
I never... I never set out to
be an artist, is the thing.
328
00:22:19,135 --> 00:22:20,770
When I was a little kid,
329
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,599
people would ask me what I wanted to do, and
I would never say "Oh, I want to be an artist",
330
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:29,499
because I had no idea what that even
meant. And I was so bad at drawing,
331
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,099
my ninth-grade teacher sent me
home with a note for my parents,
332
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,164
gently suggesting to them that
they should discourage me
333
00:22:36,265 --> 00:22:40,240
from trying to draw and paint, because
I just didn't have it in me.
334
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,419
And I can see why he felt that, because
at the time, I... I couldn't.
335
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,169
I mean, there were a few artists in my
junior high school and high school,
336
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:49,219
and I was far and away the worst.
337
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:54,890
My parents didn't, you know, ever talk about
sending me to art school or anything.
338
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,270
They just thought I was going to end up in the
gutter. My father wanted me to be a blacksmith.
339
00:23:00,659 --> 00:23:05,099
He thought that... that was probably
the right career for me, to be...
340
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,019
pounding on hot metal in the back of
some desperate, filthy shed somewhere.
341
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,680
He thought that was my true milieu.
342
00:23:12,845 --> 00:23:14,539
Even after I was married and had a kid
343
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,619
and was working in the animation industry,
and making good money, he
344
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,419
suggested that I learn how
to be a blacksmith,
345
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,640
so that I could resort to that
when this fluke...
346
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,120
of making a living as an artist fell through.
347
00:23:30,090 --> 00:23:33,570
I didn't really know what an artist
was until I was in high school,
348
00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:40,610
and I went to a massive retrospective of Dada
and Surrealism at the L.A. County Art Museum.
349
00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:45,690
This is the catalog for it, this big
Dada and Surrealism retrospective.
350
00:23:46,210 --> 00:23:48,909
And I had no idea what Surrealism was.
351
00:23:49,010 --> 00:23:53,170
I'd never heard of Salvador Dalí, or
Max Ernst, or any of those guys.
352
00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:56,234
All I knew was that I had these things
that I was trying to express,
353
00:23:56,335 --> 00:24:00,489
and then I found myself in a room filled
with the greatest hits of Surrealism.
354
00:24:00,590 --> 00:24:03,070
Right at the beginning
there's a painting by...uh...
355
00:24:03,570 --> 00:24:06,509
Giorgio di Chirico called The Song of Love.
Very famous painting.
356
00:24:06,610 --> 00:24:10,490
It's got a plaster bust and a red
rubber glove hanging from a thumbtack.
357
00:24:10,610 --> 00:24:15,469
I saw that, and I just was like "God!
Can you do this? Is this all right?"
358
00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:21,810
The Great Masturbator.
That picture really knocked me for a loop when I saw it.
359
00:24:22,370 --> 00:24:25,189
I felt I had discovered someone
who really understood me.
360
00:24:25,290 --> 00:24:27,869
That just went straight into
my central nervous system,
361
00:24:27,970 --> 00:24:31,285
and I thought: "You can do anything.
You can break any taboo,
362
00:24:31,385 --> 00:24:34,610
you can say any horrible
disgusting thing you want,
363
00:24:34,770 --> 00:24:38,610
and it can be fantastic."
It's not disgusting.
364
00:24:38,770 --> 00:24:40,989
It's like a laboratory for
thought and feeling,
365
00:24:41,090 --> 00:24:43,309
and a way of plunging in
as deep as you want to go.
366
00:24:43,410 --> 00:24:45,200
There are no limits and no restrictions.
367
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,100
And the amazing thing was,
this stuff was venerated.
368
00:24:48,370 --> 00:24:51,650
This wasn't the work of some
lone nut working in his attic,
369
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:53,600
stuff that would be swallowed
up by the sands of time.
370
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:55,469
This guy was a venerated master of art
371
00:24:55,570 --> 00:24:59,589
for doing these creepy, crazy,
pathological, crack-brained things.
372
00:24:59,690 --> 00:25:03,979
I mean, Salvador Dalí was a huge figure
in my life. He was a role model for me.
373
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:10,250
I wanted to be a version of myself that was
that... brave, and bold, and out of it.
374
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:14,509
What I didn't have, that Dalí had,
was the moral courage to stand up and say:
375
00:25:14,610 --> 00:25:19,069
"This is me. This is the way I am. I'm great.
You're gonna take it and like it."
376
00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:21,210
That you could be a freak and an oddball,
377
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,080
and that you didn't have to run
around slinking in shame about it,
378
00:25:24,180 --> 00:25:27,589
that you could stand up and you could do
things that other people thought were...
379
00:25:27,690 --> 00:25:29,589
...would have been terrible if
other people had done them,
380
00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:33,940
but if you were a great eccentric artist,
people thought they were fantastic.
381
00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:38,109
I mean, look at William Burroughs, you
know. He was a predatory pederast.
382
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:40,509
He shot his wife, and he...
383
00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:44,669
treated his son so atrociously that
he basically ruined his life.
384
00:25:44,770 --> 00:25:49,010
But people love him, they admire him.
They think he's wonderful.
385
00:25:49,290 --> 00:25:53,380
If he wasn't a great artist, he would
just be a standard, run-of-the-mill prick.
386
00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:58,909
Same with Dalí, you know.
He did a lot of really unsavory things,
387
00:25:59,010 --> 00:26:00,789
and people stood up
and applauded him.
388
00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:03,989
I thought that was great!
That's why I wanted to be an artist.
389
00:26:04,090 --> 00:26:07,589
I thought: "I can turn all of my defects
into some kind of professional asset."
390
00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:13,010
"I can... I can be what I am,
and not hide it. I can amplify it."
391
00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:17,309
That was it! The gates opened.
I thought: "This is for me."
392
00:26:17,410 --> 00:26:20,210
"These are my kind of people.
This is what I want to do."
393
00:26:20,370 --> 00:26:23,625
Unfortunately, I still couldn't draw.
I had the ideas,
394
00:26:23,725 --> 00:26:26,890
but it took me forever to figure
out how to put them into action.
395
00:26:27,410 --> 00:26:29,469
I draw constantly when I was a teenager,
396
00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:32,770
and just as constantly
I threw out what I drew.
397
00:26:33,290 --> 00:26:36,610
Looking at this, you can see why
I didn't want to keep them around.
398
00:26:37,010 --> 00:26:39,970
I guess I was about seventeen
when I did this.
399
00:26:40,345 --> 00:26:44,770
Every drawing I attempted in those
days ended in frustrated scrawls.
400
00:26:45,170 --> 00:26:48,490
The Inkhand theme was something
of a talisman for me.
401
00:26:48,610 --> 00:26:53,310
Inkhand was what I called the longed-for
ability to use a pen fluently.
402
00:26:53,670 --> 00:26:57,309
I probably made nine thousand drawings
with the word "Inkhand"
403
00:26:57,410 --> 00:27:00,610
scrawled across them,
in fury at my ineptitude.
404
00:27:00,890 --> 00:27:03,410
It was an incantation,
a mantra.
405
00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:05,869
Since I believed I was a born master,
406
00:27:05,970 --> 00:27:08,890
it irked me to no end that I
couldn't draw worth a damn.
407
00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:14,715
I had to be an artist because all I ever wanted
to do... was to express my total dedication...
408
00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:20,210
to the examination of these
experiences that, I felt...
409
00:27:21,170 --> 00:27:23,885
...even though they were
incomprehensible, were also...
410
00:27:24,610 --> 00:27:26,155
transcendental.
411
00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:34,490
I guess...
412
00:27:35,290 --> 00:27:40,490
I guess I'm not really sure what these
various things have actually been,
413
00:27:40,610 --> 00:27:44,210
or how to categorize them. I know
I've had a lot of hallucinations.
414
00:27:45,970 --> 00:27:52,143
I've only had one that I thought had any deep,
personal significance for me,
415
00:27:52,244 --> 00:27:58,000
and that was that big green frog creature I saw on
the movie screen at the Glendale Junior College.
416
00:27:58,100 --> 00:27:59,140
After high school,
417
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,210
I briefly attended Glendale Junior College,
but I didn't do well at it.
418
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:07,890
I took an art history class that included
an overview of ancient architecture.
419
00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:15,069
Watching slides of Assyrian, Abyssinian, Egyptian, and
Persepolitan ruins put me into a ruminative trance.
420
00:28:15,170 --> 00:28:19,970
And then, after the last slide,
the screen went... white.
421
00:28:20,745 --> 00:28:22,370
The classroom was silent.
422
00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:26,770
The hair on the back of my neck stood up,
and I knew something was going to happen.
423
00:28:27,410 --> 00:28:30,410
And then I had an amazing vision.
424
00:28:30,610 --> 00:28:35,990
This frog appeared on the screen, shooting up from
the bottom and settling down into this pose.
425
00:28:36,210 --> 00:28:41,069
And when I saw it, I felt
such a blast of emotion
426
00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:45,510
that I could feel the soles of my
feet and the palms of my hands sting
427
00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:48,010
with the blood rushing through them.
428
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:50,789
I should perhaps mention that
at this point in my life
429
00:28:50,890 --> 00:28:53,410
I had never taken drugs or been drunk.
430
00:28:53,785 --> 00:28:57,189
I was so startled, I yelled and
tipped my desk over backwards,
431
00:28:57,290 --> 00:29:00,509
badly scraping the shin of
the woman sitting behind me.
432
00:29:00,610 --> 00:29:03,410
I left school, and I never went back.
433
00:29:03,690 --> 00:29:05,309
It wasn't just seeing something,
434
00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:11,045
it was more of a full-body,
full-mind, full-awareness event.
435
00:29:11,150 --> 00:29:13,309
And it really, really stayed with me.
436
00:29:13,410 --> 00:29:16,509
I went home and I drew that frog
over and over and over again.
437
00:29:16,610 --> 00:29:19,469
I'll bet I've drawn that frog
ten thousand times.
438
00:29:19,570 --> 00:29:21,310
Do you still get that
feeling from it?
439
00:29:21,970 --> 00:29:27,601
No, unfortunately, because like
almost everything else in my life,
440
00:29:27,702 --> 00:29:32,425
age has dulled the edge of it.
But it still means something to me.
441
00:29:32,525 --> 00:29:35,989
I still like to draw it. I still like
to look at it and think about it,
442
00:29:36,090 --> 00:29:39,555
and I still feel... that it's somehow...
443
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:43,290
...a... friend of mine, or an asset
in my life, or something.
444
00:29:44,090 --> 00:29:46,040
So what did you do after that?
445
00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:53,010
I, uh, got a job as a garbageman,
for the city of Glendale.
446
00:29:54,610 --> 00:30:00,310
And that paid me a working man's salary,
even though I was just a kid.
447
00:30:00,490 --> 00:30:03,570
So I rented a place to live, and I...
448
00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:08,890
...got stinking drunk every
single night of the week,
449
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:11,970
and I was so healthy in
those days that I could...
450
00:30:12,964 --> 00:30:17,290
turn in absolutely hammered
at three in the morning,
451
00:30:17,410 --> 00:30:22,269
and get up at six... bright-eyed,
bushy-tailed, and fresh as a daisy,
452
00:30:22,370 --> 00:30:24,980
and go riding around in
the back of a truck.
453
00:30:25,540 --> 00:30:27,709
-Did you do artwork during that time?
-Oh, yeah. Yeah.
454
00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:29,720
Well, I tried to do artwork. I...
455
00:30:30,635 --> 00:30:34,490
I was still trying to be an artist, but
I didn't really know how to go about it.
456
00:30:35,410 --> 00:30:38,789
Suddenly, in 1978, when I was twenty-six,
457
00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:42,890
I finally produced the sort of drawing
that I had been striving to create.
458
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:45,589
I called it: Barnyard Trouble.
459
00:30:45,690 --> 00:30:47,570
When I was done with this picture,
460
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:49,709
it was such a big moment for me,
461
00:30:49,810 --> 00:30:53,589
because I had been able to complete it,
and I was infatuated with this image.
462
00:30:53,690 --> 00:30:56,389
I couldn't take my eyes off it, I
would look at it for hours.
463
00:30:56,490 --> 00:30:58,789
And I was amazed that it happened,
because it made me realize, you know,
464
00:30:58,890 --> 00:31:03,355
I've been working so hard and so blindly
towards this, and it's true! It works!
465
00:31:03,910 --> 00:31:05,869
I mean, I was headed in this
direction for a reason.
466
00:31:05,970 --> 00:31:08,490
I've created these things that
mean a huge amount to me,
467
00:31:08,610 --> 00:31:12,210
and I'll bet if I keep doing them, they'll
mean something to somebody else.
468
00:31:13,210 --> 00:31:37,655
[musical interlude]
469
00:31:37,855 --> 00:31:40,509
Having no idea how to build
a career as an artist,
470
00:31:40,610 --> 00:31:43,810
I decided to self-publish what would
now be called a zine.
471
00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:48,269
It seems like a simple idea, but
the formula eluded me until 1981,
472
00:31:48,370 --> 00:31:50,669
when I put out the first issue of JIM,
473
00:31:50,770 --> 00:31:54,490
a sixteen-page Xeroxed "autojournal",
as I called it.
474
00:31:54,890 --> 00:31:57,869
It had drawings and written pieces,
and ads in the back
475
00:31:57,970 --> 00:32:01,589
for things like the Fortune-Telling Stinkbug
and the Weasel Silhouette,
476
00:32:01,690 --> 00:32:04,289
all of which I dutifully made and sold.
477
00:32:04,390 --> 00:32:06,400
But it did not have any comics in it.
478
00:32:07,410 --> 00:32:11,189
Round about 1985, Gil Kane
introduced me to Gary Groth,
479
00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:13,189
the co-owner of Fantagraphics Books,
480
00:32:13,290 --> 00:32:16,370
which was publishing the best comics
coming out at that time.
481
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:19,690
Gary offered to publish JIM
if I would put comics in it.
482
00:32:20,370 --> 00:32:22,909
Everything in the series
was straight autobiography,
483
00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:27,170
recording, as it did, things that occurred to me,
either while asleep or awake.
484
00:32:27,690 --> 00:32:31,589
Fantagraphics Books has been
my publisher since 1986.
485
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:33,989
They've released fourteen
volumes of my work,
486
00:32:34,090 --> 00:32:38,670
most of which are concerned with this
cartoon character called Frank.
487
00:32:39,945 --> 00:32:41,989
I first drew him in 1988,
488
00:32:42,090 --> 00:32:46,725
after I'd kicked the idea for him around
in my mind for six months or so.
489
00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:49,410
What I wanted was a cartoon character,
490
00:32:49,510 --> 00:32:54,749
a generic anthropomorph that was the
equidistant synthesis of all cartoon traits.
491
00:32:54,850 --> 00:32:59,309
A cartoon character who was not a caricature
of any kind of animal or human being,
492
00:32:59,410 --> 00:33:02,610
and who was capable of absolutely anything.
493
00:33:03,260 --> 00:33:05,140
This is what I came up with.
494
00:33:05,290 --> 00:33:09,870
This is the first drawing ever made of that
character, long before he had a name.
495
00:33:10,460 --> 00:33:12,269
And this is the second drawing of him,
496
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:16,370
which was used as the cover of
the aforementioned JIM magazine.
497
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:20,500
A friend's mother saw this and said,
"You have to name him Frank!"
498
00:33:20,750 --> 00:33:22,210
after her cat.
499
00:33:22,590 --> 00:33:25,790
So that was that.
His name became Frank.
500
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:29,049
In every Frank story, he
gets up in the morning,
501
00:33:29,150 --> 00:33:32,369
and as soon as his eyelids open,
he runs out of the house,
502
00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:35,270
and he is thrilled at what he sees.
503
00:33:36,190 --> 00:33:38,990
Frank's world is called The Unifactor.
504
00:33:39,390 --> 00:33:42,249
It is a closed system of
motivated cause and effect
505
00:33:42,350 --> 00:33:46,190
where everything balances out and
resets in the medium-long run.
506
00:33:47,270 --> 00:33:52,249
The Unifactor also subjects its residents
to terrible and frightening experiences,
507
00:33:52,350 --> 00:33:56,750
whether for fun or for some deeper
unknown reason, who can say.
508
00:33:58,470 --> 00:34:01,450
The Unifactor is the main
character in these stories.
509
00:34:02,870 --> 00:34:07,670
Like, in the same way that...
God is the main character on the Earth.
510
00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:13,990
And it's not really a direct one-on-one
representation-- symbolic representation of that.
511
00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:17,890
It's a literary construct,
or an artistic construct.
512
00:34:18,190 --> 00:34:23,169
And I think sometimes it feels to us
like life is having its way with us,
513
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:27,270
and I think it's a representation
of that more than anything else.
514
00:34:28,870 --> 00:34:33,689
The Unifactor is doing this stuff, God
knows why, but it's doing everything,
515
00:34:33,790 --> 00:34:37,790
and it controls the situation
the way it wants to be controlled.
516
00:34:42,000 --> 00:35:30,160
[musical interlude]
517
00:35:32,725 --> 00:35:35,670
I can't... meditate.
518
00:35:36,070 --> 00:35:38,470
I try, but I just can't do it.
519
00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:44,490
But I can get myself into what I
call a sticky mood pretty easily,
520
00:35:44,745 --> 00:35:50,244
which is a warm, gray, gluey,
521
00:35:50,345 --> 00:35:53,270
semi-conscious...
--I'm going into it right now--
522
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:59,370
...state, which is very receptive.
523
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,470
So, when I'm writing a Frank comic,
524
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:05,689
what I will do is I will go off to
some quiet, secluded place,
525
00:36:05,790 --> 00:36:08,870
and I'll sit down with my notebook,
and I'll invoke that mood,
526
00:36:08,990 --> 00:36:11,585
and I'll write a phrase. I'll write:
527
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:18,750
"Frank is throwing rocks...
at a... hot-water heater."
528
00:36:19,490 --> 00:36:21,550
No. Nothing.
529
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:25,430
Okay, "Frank is peeling potatoes."
No.
530
00:36:26,350 --> 00:36:29,300
"Frank is pitching a tent."
No.
531
00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:33,550
"Frank is sitting in his room reading."
Okay.
532
00:36:34,090 --> 00:36:36,570
This is one of the very first Frank comics,
533
00:36:36,835 --> 00:36:38,889
and it was written in the process I'm describing.
534
00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:41,835
Okay, Frank is sitting in his
room reading. Okay, good.
535
00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:51,385
What gives me the go-ahead, when I consider an idea,
is that it has a kind of a spectral glow to it.
536
00:36:51,550 --> 00:36:56,070
So, and then I come up with another line.
He... Frank... there's an earthquake.
537
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:58,350
Nothing.
Um...
538
00:37:00,070 --> 00:37:02,870
Manhog comes charging...
charging into the house.
539
00:37:03,950 --> 00:37:05,100
No.
540
00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:09,950
A dried leaf blows in the window.
Mm... That's got it.
541
00:37:10,190 --> 00:37:13,849
So, put that line down next.
Frank is in his room reading,
542
00:37:13,950 --> 00:37:15,645
a dried leaf blows in the window.
543
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:19,550
Next one comes easier:
He looks out the window.
544
00:37:19,950 --> 00:37:24,089
At a certain point, everything
I come down with glows,
545
00:37:24,190 --> 00:37:27,689
and I don't think about what they mean,
I don't think about where the story is going,
546
00:37:27,790 --> 00:37:30,905
I don't think about whether it is a
story or how it's going to wind up.
547
00:37:31,005 --> 00:37:33,520
I just do it until something happens,
548
00:37:33,620 --> 00:37:36,070
then I realize: "Oh! We're
back where we started."
549
00:37:36,350 --> 00:37:38,750
And that's it.
Then I have the story.
550
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:43,390
This is the book that I did the work in
for the book that became FRAN.
551
00:37:43,950 --> 00:37:49,390
And there's a lot of tortured
agonizing over the story.
552
00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:52,769
You can see I carried this
thing around for a year,
553
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:55,849
and filled it up with notes,
554
00:37:55,950 --> 00:37:59,270
mostly documenting how frustrated
and unhappy I was
555
00:37:59,390 --> 00:38:02,350
at not being able to
come up with anything.
556
00:38:03,550 --> 00:38:05,449
And this is a book
I'm working on,
557
00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:09,310
or this is my workbook for
the... the current story.
558
00:38:11,390 --> 00:38:14,350
And it starts off kind of nice and orderly,
559
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:16,750
where I set out my task for myself,
560
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:22,190
but as it goes on and I fail to find
the elements that I'm looking for,
561
00:38:22,590 --> 00:38:29,550
it just sort of degenerates into a nasty
scrap heap of half-finished sketches.
562
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,790
Telling silent stories is difficult,
563
00:38:35,950 --> 00:38:38,889
because you can't have a label that
says "He goes to the store".
564
00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:41,289
You have to show him leaving the
house and going to the store.
565
00:38:41,390 --> 00:38:42,990
You have to draw a lot of extra stuff.
566
00:38:43,150 --> 00:38:46,249
I wanted these stories to be
beyond time and place,
567
00:38:46,350 --> 00:38:50,750
and if the characters had spoken, that would
have tied it to this time and this place,
568
00:38:50,852 --> 00:38:55,035
and to the particular kind of
idiomatic English that I use.
569
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:57,849
Having no words means that anybody,
570
00:38:57,950 --> 00:39:01,969
in any country, at any time, can get the same
thing out of these stories as anybody else.
571
00:39:02,070 --> 00:39:03,650
That means a lot to me.
572
00:39:06,590 --> 00:39:10,990
So, in other words, it's a... it's
a slow and painstaking process.
573
00:39:11,150 --> 00:39:13,270
It's hard to come up with these ideas.
574
00:39:13,390 --> 00:39:18,190
You mentioned that... the difficulty.
Is it that you don't enjoy it?
575
00:39:18,590 --> 00:39:23,049
No, I don't really enjoy it. It's...
It's hard work. It's hard work.
576
00:39:23,150 --> 00:39:25,270
I kind of enjoy it
more when I can...
577
00:39:26,590 --> 00:39:30,070
...when I know what I'm going to do,
and I can just sit down and draw it.
578
00:39:30,190 --> 00:39:31,550
But in a situation like this,
579
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:34,369
where I'm having to draw every panel
four and five times,
580
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:37,449
and work out the composition,
and get the flow right,
581
00:39:37,550 --> 00:39:39,169
and the postures right,
and the hookups right,
582
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:41,100
and the continuity right,
and all that stuff...
583
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,670
It's just work. And it's frustrating.
584
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:47,969
And in the case of a page like this,
by the time I have it all penciled out,
585
00:39:48,070 --> 00:39:53,169
it may be so marred from drawing and
erasing, and drawing and erasing,
586
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:55,790
that I'll just have to trace
it onto another page.
587
00:39:56,590 --> 00:39:59,270
So it can take me a week
to do a single page.
588
00:39:59,550 --> 00:40:02,590
But it's a lot of work for
the results, I think.
589
00:40:03,590 --> 00:40:35,350
[musical interlude]
590
00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:39,150
I have a similar process for
doing the drawings that I do.
591
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:42,870
I keep a notebook in my
pocket at all times.
592
00:40:43,150 --> 00:40:45,150
I fill up one of these
things every month.
593
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:49,470
I've got a bookcase with well over
a hundred of these things,
594
00:40:49,790 --> 00:40:52,070
and I use them for idea batteries.
595
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:58,310
But as I was saying, if I need an idea
for a project, whether it's a commission--
596
00:40:58,470 --> 00:41:01,670
See, I said that wrong too. Goddammit,
I'm getting self-conscious.
597
00:41:02,350 --> 00:41:04,649
-Let's try that again.-Let's... let's... it's not a speech.
598
00:41:04,750 --> 00:41:07,849
It's not a speech, but I don't want to...
but I'm making it sound like a speech,
599
00:41:07,950 --> 00:41:10,470
because I'm being self-conscious.
So I'll just say...
600
00:41:10,590 --> 00:41:13,150
Well, let's talk... well, let's talk about
your dreams for a little bit more.
601
00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:15,790
-My dreams?-The dream theater. The movie theater.
602
00:41:15,950 --> 00:41:18,579
[Frustrated noise]
603
00:41:18,741 --> 00:41:23,289
So is it... is it a... it's a movie theater just for you,
it's the single seat on top of a pedestal,
604
00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:25,270
and there's nobody else in the theater...?
605
00:41:25,390 --> 00:41:29,449
Yeah. I don't know if it's a movie theater
just for me, but it's a theater... that is...
606
00:41:29,550 --> 00:41:33,289
...reserved for who... for one person.
One person can go in there,
607
00:41:33,390 --> 00:41:36,169
and they ascend to the top of this
column, where there's a chair.
608
00:41:36,270 --> 00:41:42,249
And there's a big, wrap-around movie screen,
and films are shown there continuously
609
00:41:42,350 --> 00:41:46,470
that are relevant to different
situations in different ways.
610
00:41:46,590 --> 00:41:48,350
And I see films about...
611
00:41:48,990 --> 00:41:53,390
biology, and history, and technology,
and myself.
612
00:41:53,550 --> 00:41:56,317
And I have gotten lots of ideas in that place.
613
00:41:56,418 --> 00:41:58,249
And do you keep a record of those ideas?
614
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:04,719
Yes, I do. In fact... because ideas are the
hardest things to come by in this process,
615
00:42:04,820 --> 00:42:06,550
I started keeping...
616
00:42:08,190 --> 00:42:12,070
...these, these little pocket-sized
Moleskine sketchbooks.
617
00:42:12,990 --> 00:42:16,750
This is my current one. I try always to
have one of these things on me.
618
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:25,090
This bookcase here is full of 'em. This goes
from 2004 to 2015, so it's about ten years.
619
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:29,169
And when I need an idea, what I do is I
just get out one of these books,
620
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:32,990
and I usually haven't seen what's
in them for years and years.
621
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:38,070
I go through them, and I look for...
622
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:41,150
something that will be useful to me.
623
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:49,449
This one... got wet. [laughs]
Maybe on purpose.
624
00:42:49,550 --> 00:42:52,889
Sometimes when I do a drawing
I don't like, I just get it wet,
625
00:42:52,990 --> 00:42:57,270
so that it will be somewhat obliterated, but
there will be a sort of a trace record of it.
626
00:42:58,870 --> 00:43:02,350
Here's three little vignettes. Okay, look at this.
Look at this one here. See?
627
00:43:02,750 --> 00:43:05,849
Here's four distinct images.
628
00:43:05,950 --> 00:43:07,790
I've drawn these two as large drawings,
629
00:43:07,950 --> 00:43:09,790
but I haven't done either of these.
630
00:43:10,990 --> 00:43:12,890
But I could!
631
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:15,169
And in fact I need to make a drawing, so...
632
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:19,390
...what I would do is I would pick one
of these two, because they'll do.
633
00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:24,240
And then I would just pencil it up and
ink it, and there would be the picture.
634
00:43:24,781 --> 00:43:26,910
So you can see how easy it is.
635
00:43:28,325 --> 00:43:30,709
-What do you think? Do you think that would make...? -Sounds good.
636
00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:34,080
Which of these two do you think would make
a better picture, this one or this one?
637
00:43:36,955 --> 00:43:40,845
I kind of like this one, because he's
being wafted on a cloud of smoke.
638
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:44,590
Interesting. They don't... So you
didn't do all of them together?
639
00:43:44,750 --> 00:43:48,134
It looks like a... it's not a triptych,
but what would it be... a quadrych?
640
00:43:48,235 --> 00:43:49,790
Well, it's... it's just four drawings.
641
00:43:49,950 --> 00:43:52,590
I just drew these four squares, and
then I put four pictures in them.
642
00:43:52,750 --> 00:43:54,889
But they're all very similar,
in terms of Frank.
643
00:43:54,990 --> 00:43:57,581
Well, they're... they're... yeah, they
are, but that I think is just a coincidence.
644
00:43:57,682 --> 00:44:00,870
I wasn't trying to do anything
in particular, I was just...
645
00:44:02,070 --> 00:44:05,269
just as an exercise, just decided
to do four Frank pictures.
646
00:44:05,370 --> 00:44:07,720
But yeah, he's at his ease in all of them.
647
00:44:08,124 --> 00:44:11,270
Maybe I did have something else in mind,
I can't really tell.
648
00:44:11,950 --> 00:44:16,990
I can't really remember why I've drawn
most of the things I've drawn.
649
00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:21,600
And... sometimes if I can't
find anything I want in here,
650
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:25,310
because I sort of have to feel a
resonance with what's in them...
651
00:44:26,590 --> 00:44:30,709
...I will go to another source.
I have other sketchbooks,
652
00:44:30,810 --> 00:44:34,060
I have... boxes of loose
drawings, of paper.
653
00:44:35,150 --> 00:44:39,520
Whenever I get a pad of paper, I...
here, let me show you something.
654
00:44:40,190 --> 00:44:44,590
This is characteristic. I buy one
of these pads of cheap paper,
655
00:44:44,715 --> 00:44:46,590
and I number all the pages,
656
00:44:46,990 --> 00:44:50,792
and then any... any time I need
to do a sketch for anything at all,
657
00:44:52,170 --> 00:44:54,249
I do them in this book,
658
00:44:54,350 --> 00:44:57,550
and because I'm keeping absolutely
all of the pages,
659
00:44:58,590 --> 00:45:03,950
I try my hardest to make them
worth doing and worth keeping.
660
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:08,070
This is a drawing that
I did of a huge frog,
661
00:45:08,190 --> 00:45:12,089
kind of lurching up onto the land and
swallowing people by the handful,
662
00:45:12,190 --> 00:45:14,070
and the people are loving it.
663
00:45:15,550 --> 00:45:17,870
But I decided to do something else with it.
664
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:21,390
I decided to have the frog coming up on the shore
665
00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:25,435
and disgorging people into the landscape,
666
00:45:25,790 --> 00:45:27,969
and they're happy to be there.
667
00:45:28,070 --> 00:45:33,220
So... I guess they are immigrants...
fleeing some terrible situation.
668
00:45:33,790 --> 00:45:36,449
So, if I can't find something in one of these
small books,
669
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:38,350
I have bunches of these too.
670
00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:41,270
These are all sketchbooks in
here that are full of ideas.
671
00:45:41,390 --> 00:45:44,170
These drawers are full of sketchbooks
that are full of ideas.
672
00:45:44,470 --> 00:45:47,289
That box there is full of
drawings and sketches,
673
00:45:47,390 --> 00:45:51,320
and there's boxes and boxes of sketches
and drawings in the other room.
674
00:45:52,190 --> 00:45:56,945
I've got so much of this stuff, and so
little of it ends up in finished form.
675
00:45:57,670 --> 00:46:00,795
I'd like to think they would mean
something to somebody somewhere.
676
00:46:01,550 --> 00:46:06,350
I mean, I'm devoting my life to creating these
things, I'd hate to think it was pointless.
677
00:46:08,150 --> 00:46:10,685
But I know it probably is.
678
00:46:11,130 --> 00:46:14,570
It's just a pastime, something
to keep me engaged.
679
00:46:15,130 --> 00:46:18,290
You don't feel at times
that there's some...
680
00:46:19,370 --> 00:46:22,349
...meaning that you're delving
into, or revealing, or...? 00:46:25,829
Oh, I feel that all the time. I feel that
everything I do has some meaning.
682
00:46:25,930 --> 00:46:29,930
Almost everything. I mean, I draw some stupid,
arbitrary stuff, obviously. But...
683
00:46:30,482 --> 00:46:34,730
most of the time, I feel like I'm doing
something that's worthwhile, to me.
684
00:46:35,759 --> 00:46:38,869
I'm really not trying to
create entertainment,
685
00:46:38,970 --> 00:46:42,649
as much as I'm trying to
present ideas and...
686
00:46:42,759 --> 00:46:46,349
situations that I think are fraught,
and worth considering,
687
00:46:46,450 --> 00:46:49,615
worth thinking about. And for me,
they're fun to contemplate.
688
00:46:50,170 --> 00:46:53,429
I mean, I look at this little drawing
here of Frank, it's just a sketch,
689
00:46:53,530 --> 00:46:55,549
and I'll have to do it because
I made him too big,
690
00:46:55,650 --> 00:46:58,050
I'll have to erase that,
so here it goes.
691
00:47:00,250 --> 00:47:03,244
I made him too big. I have to make him
about a quarter of an inch shorter,
692
00:47:03,345 --> 00:47:06,330
so that he'll be in his
scale with his antagonist.
693
00:47:08,330 --> 00:47:10,869
But I like that drawing of him
standing there full of knives.
694
00:47:10,970 --> 00:47:15,130
I think that's a nice image. He's standing there,
he's not hurt, he's a little surprised,
695
00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:19,165
and he's got knives sticking out
of him like porcupine quills.
696
00:47:20,050 --> 00:47:23,770
That's an interesting point that
you raise, though, in terms of...
697
00:47:23,930 --> 00:47:26,330
he's not really hurt, just surprised.
698
00:47:26,450 --> 00:47:28,749
That seems to be kind of
a feature of Frank, that
699
00:47:28,850 --> 00:47:32,749
he's rarely really injured
by anything in the Unifactor.
700
00:47:32,850 --> 00:47:34,330
Nobody is.
701
00:47:34,730 --> 00:47:37,949
Nobody is. It's like a science-fiction
story where nobody can die.
702
00:47:38,050 --> 00:47:41,549
The thing about the Frank stories
is that whatever happens in them,
703
00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:45,650
at the end of the story, everything has
to be reset back the way it was.
704
00:47:47,650 --> 00:47:49,930
The hammer never really falls.
705
00:47:50,450 --> 00:47:53,829
Terrible things happen, but they
never annihilate anything.
706
00:47:53,930 --> 00:47:57,029
Which is the way I feel
about life in general.
707
00:47:57,130 --> 00:48:01,370
I feel that... the hammer
never really falls.
708
00:48:02,450 --> 00:48:06,430
Terrible as things can be,
awful as people suffer, that...
709
00:48:06,550 --> 00:48:11,370
ultimate annihilation never occurs.
It's all just play-acting.
710
00:48:12,450 --> 00:48:15,250
Which is... [laughs]
I'm sure there are... [laughs]
711
00:48:15,350 --> 00:48:18,123
that must be insulting to people
who have suffered terribly,
712
00:48:18,224 --> 00:48:21,170
and don't see it that way, and I guess...
713
00:48:21,390 --> 00:48:24,069
Maybe I shouldn't have said it,
but it's... that's how I see it.
714
00:48:24,170 --> 00:48:26,730
I don't want to trivialize
people's suffering, but...
715
00:48:26,850 --> 00:48:30,520
I really do believe that
this is sort of a field of...
716
00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:36,330
illusion, where nothing is permanent.
Nothing matters, really.
717
00:48:36,970 --> 00:48:38,970
You know, I guess I... I'm...
718
00:48:40,050 --> 00:48:42,149
I'm speaking in a highfalutin way
719
00:48:42,250 --> 00:48:44,749
about something I'm not really
qualified to talk about. These...
720
00:48:44,850 --> 00:48:50,469
This is... a bunch of loose talk,
and it should be considered as such.
721
00:48:50,570 --> 00:48:53,117
I don't really... None
of the things I'm saying
722
00:48:53,218 --> 00:48:56,570
would stand up to serious
philosophical scrutiny.
723
00:48:57,930 --> 00:48:59,940
It's mostly just because when I'm...
724
00:49:00,195 --> 00:49:02,850
when I'm sitting here doing this work,
I have to...
725
00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:05,455
I kind of have to think
about what I'm doing,
726
00:49:05,556 --> 00:49:08,747
and I try to get as much fun out
of thinking about it as I can.
727
00:49:10,410 --> 00:49:13,030
So it's not a grounding for
your spiritual beliefs?
728
00:49:13,130 --> 00:49:15,350
Oh, no. It has nothing
to do with that.
729
00:49:16,050 --> 00:49:19,650
I mean, my spiritual...
beliefs are...
730
00:49:22,330 --> 00:49:28,170
You know, that's... that's something that I'm just...
moving around the periphery of.
731
00:49:28,330 --> 00:49:30,629
I have no real understanding
of what I'm doing there.
732
00:49:30,730 --> 00:49:35,390
I understand what I'm doing here. I don't
understand what I'm doing when I... you know...
733
00:49:36,570 --> 00:49:39,250
sit down in
a devotional attitude.
734
00:49:39,370 --> 00:49:42,210
I don't know what that's all about.
Something's going on.
735
00:49:43,370 --> 00:49:47,200
You can feel it. You can feel
its influence in your life.
736
00:49:47,530 --> 00:49:51,029
It does something. It is something.
But what it is, why it's there,
737
00:49:51,130 --> 00:49:54,450
what its relationship to me is,
I have no idea.
738
00:49:57,650 --> 00:50:00,020
I'm going to end up having
to do this page over.
739
00:50:00,170 --> 00:50:02,349
Are we too distracting?
740
00:50:02,450 --> 00:50:06,970
Well, no, it's not that at all, it's just that
that's...[laughs] par for the course for me.
741
00:50:07,530 --> 00:50:10,529
I do... I frequently do pages over again,
742
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:14,570
because it takes me so long to get
to the point that I want to get at.
743
00:50:16,425 --> 00:50:21,370
This is a... sort of a more rendered sketch
for The Nudist Colony picture.
744
00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:25,410
What's the idea behind The Nudist Colony?
745
00:50:26,850 --> 00:50:30,549
Uh... well, the... I just came up with that title.
It was a little specious. I...
746
00:50:30,650 --> 00:50:34,400
This is a case of a situation where
I had to do a picture.
747
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,370
I had to work. I had to do something,
and I didn't have an idea.
748
00:50:37,470 --> 00:50:40,850
And so this thing... just accrued.
749
00:50:41,230 --> 00:50:45,010
I drew this thing, and then I drew this guy
hitting its nose with a hammer
750
00:50:45,110 --> 00:50:48,720
as if it was one of those ring-the-bell
attractions at a fair.
751
00:50:49,645 --> 00:50:54,630
And then I just... put in the rest of it.
It... it's kind of arbitrary, and...
752
00:50:54,830 --> 00:50:57,630
if it means anything at all,
I don't know what it is.
753
00:50:57,750 --> 00:51:02,030
This is the first version of the image
that I'm drawing in charcoal now,
754
00:51:02,950 --> 00:51:06,729
where the frog is shoveling
people into its mouth,
755
00:51:06,830 --> 00:51:11,129
and clasping this woman with
its bifurcated tongue.
756
00:51:11,230 --> 00:51:15,510
And the people like it. They enjoy the fact
that they're disappearing into the frog.
757
00:51:17,230 --> 00:51:21,230
And this is the sketch... one of the sketches
that I did for the charcoal drawing.
758
00:51:21,350 --> 00:51:23,230
At this point I had the frog
759
00:51:23,350 --> 00:51:27,409
with this kind of natural crown
growing out of its head,
760
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:31,540
kind of like a star-nose mole's nose.
761
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:36,430
I called it an exit-wound frog, but
then I decided to get rid of it.
762
00:51:36,550 --> 00:51:39,649
This is a sketch I did for a
picture that I really like called
763
00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:42,550
Interfenestration on the Veranda.
764
00:51:42,830 --> 00:51:44,550
What's the idea of this one?
765
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:47,250
Well, it's... it's pretty straightforward.
766
00:51:47,410 --> 00:51:50,255
This fellow is meditating.
767
00:51:50,830 --> 00:51:52,849
You know, there's a metaphor for meditation,
768
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:57,409
which is that when your mind becomes like
a completely still candle flame, that is...
769
00:51:57,885 --> 00:52:03,409
that is the effect you're trying to achieve
in meditation, to still your mind.
770
00:52:03,510 --> 00:52:08,609
So this guy's doing it, and his... head, or mind,
or consciousness, or something,
771
00:52:08,710 --> 00:52:10,729
is breaking through these dimensions.
772
00:52:10,830 --> 00:52:13,760
In the paintings there are different
things to be seen in these...
773
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,190
...different dimensions that
his mind is punching through.
774
00:52:17,630 --> 00:52:21,510
That's... he's sitting in front of a doorway,
and so it's going through the door,
775
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:26,150
but it's also going through
the surface of the picture,
776
00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:28,030
into these other realms.
777
00:52:28,310 --> 00:52:31,910
The final painting was a little, tiny bit
different in terms of layout.
778
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:35,809
Do you have any care at all
what happens to these posthumously?
779
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:38,430
Well, I would not like them to be thrown away.
780
00:52:38,550 --> 00:52:41,009
I think some of them are finished enough
781
00:52:41,110 --> 00:52:44,310
and interesting enough that they
would look good in a frame.
782
00:52:44,550 --> 00:52:49,230
And, you know, when you see, as you see here,
maybe ten drawings for one picture,
783
00:52:49,350 --> 00:52:52,430
they are the ten that I thought
were the ones worth preserving.
784
00:52:52,550 --> 00:52:54,430
I did many, many more.
785
00:52:55,230 --> 00:52:56,950
I'm not real deft.
786
00:52:57,605 --> 00:53:01,910
I've reconciled myself to the fact that
I'll never be a virtuoso draftsman.
787
00:53:02,430 --> 00:53:05,409
I always felt that I should be able
to do work as good as anybody,
788
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:07,230
and of course I can't.
789
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:11,529
But I... I feel like I should be able to.
790
00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:13,809
That's always been a big source
of frustration to me.
791
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:19,129
I always felt like I was a great virtuoso at heart,
but I never was, and I probably...
792
00:53:19,230 --> 00:53:22,950
Now I guess it's too late to ever be that.
I just don't have it in me, you know.
793
00:53:23,265 --> 00:53:25,350
Why would you say that about yourself?
794
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:28,150
Well, you... you can see by
looking through these sketches...
795
00:53:28,250 --> 00:53:31,044
...how many times I have to
draw things over again.
796
00:53:31,145 --> 00:53:35,649
How long it takes me to arrive at
the right pose, the right balance,
797
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:38,609
the right composition,
the right line quality,
798
00:53:38,710 --> 00:53:42,950
the right fold patterns, the right
face structure, the right...
799
00:53:44,510 --> 00:53:48,329
[sighs] ...everything. It's just...
None of it comes naturally or easily.
800
00:53:48,430 --> 00:53:51,510
I have to do it over and over and
over again until I do it right.
801
00:53:51,630 --> 00:53:54,950
And when you look all the stuff
that didn't make it into print,
802
00:53:55,230 --> 00:54:00,030
and that I've thrown away, it's... I've done
a lot more than that. It's a lot of work.
803
00:54:00,710 --> 00:54:06,150
And I guess I... I... no, I'm definitely
proud of myself for doing all that.
804
00:54:07,350 --> 00:54:10,285
But I'm not particularly
proud of the work itself.
805
00:54:10,550 --> 00:54:12,710
All I can see is what's wrong with it.
806
00:54:17,630 --> 00:54:21,910
I put a little tiny upward bend in that,
just to give it a little interest.
807
00:54:27,350 --> 00:54:31,230
Again, if you imagine this
drawing without Pupshaw,
808
00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:33,630
it's completely different.
809
00:54:34,430 --> 00:54:36,550
And the expression on her face...
810
00:54:40,430 --> 00:54:43,009
is some kind of a clue
as to what is going on.
811
00:54:43,110 --> 00:54:46,710
But I notice that I made her
body too long. That's odd.
812
00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:54,150
So, I'll push her back a little
bit, condense her a bit.
813
00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:04,950
There we go.
814
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:13,649
Now, normally, would... I'm looking
at your pencil lines there,
815
00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:16,550
and they're pretty deep. Normally
would you redraw this, then?
816
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:23,910
No. No, because it's a soft pencil.
It's not indenting the paper in any way.
817
00:55:24,030 --> 00:55:26,950
And there... I haven't done
a ton of erasing on it.
818
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:30,550
So the surface is still intact.
819
00:55:30,830 --> 00:55:33,910
This erase... these... these lines
will come up...
820
00:55:34,550 --> 00:55:37,750
with an eraser. It may take a lot of
scrubbing, but they will come up,
821
00:55:37,850 --> 00:55:40,150
and the paper underneath will be pristine.
822
00:55:43,510 --> 00:55:46,950
This is good. Now she
looks more spooked.
823
00:55:47,110 --> 00:55:50,150
So the fact that Pupshaw looks...
824
00:55:52,150 --> 00:55:56,830
...sort of defeated and flummoxed
and unhappy with what's going on,
825
00:55:56,950 --> 00:56:01,630
completely changes the significance
here. Because Frank...
826
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:07,009
...is so stupid that he'll
fall for anything,
827
00:56:07,110 --> 00:56:10,030
and he'll get into any kind
of trouble without knowing.
828
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:13,009
She knows what's going on,
and she doesn't like this.
829
00:56:13,110 --> 00:56:16,950
So there's something wrong
with the situation here.
830
00:56:26,550 --> 00:56:28,430
One thing about Frank...
831
00:56:29,110 --> 00:56:34,710
is that he has a real appreciation
for the institution of leisure.
832
00:56:35,630 --> 00:56:37,850
He can sit and stare...
833
00:56:38,875 --> 00:56:42,550
...stupidly into the sky for hours...
834
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:46,670
...without doing anything.
And that's something...
835
00:56:49,350 --> 00:56:51,649
...I used to do, and I
don't do it any more,
836
00:56:51,750 --> 00:56:55,540
because I feel like I can't afford
to waste the time. And I think it's...
837
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:58,185
...hasn't been good for me.
838
00:56:58,550 --> 00:57:02,007
-Hasn't been good for you?
-No. I think...
839
00:57:02,310 --> 00:57:08,630
...disengaging your brain and simply
falling into a reverie, or...
840
00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:12,430
...sort of... Not even a meditative state...
841
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:16,000
I don't know what else to call it,
except for "leisure".
842
00:57:16,430 --> 00:57:18,250
You mentioned meditation.
843
00:57:18,510 --> 00:57:21,009
My initial thought when you
were talking about it was...
844
00:57:21,110 --> 00:57:25,110
...that it sounded like meditation, but...
you differentiate it.
845
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:28,310
Well, yeah. Meditation is concentration.
846
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:30,030
It's work.
847
00:57:32,950 --> 00:57:36,250
The primary source of information
848
00:57:36,550 --> 00:57:39,809
that became the codified
approach to meditation
849
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:42,310
is a book called The Yoga Sutras,
850
00:57:42,830 --> 00:57:46,430
which lays out the process
in scientific detail.
851
00:57:48,250 --> 00:57:51,350
You know, people sometimes say that they...
852
00:57:52,310 --> 00:57:55,929
...you know, when they're painting
or playing music or something,
853
00:57:56,030 --> 00:58:00,049
and they're focusing for hours at a time
on it, that that's akin to meditation.
854
00:58:00,150 --> 00:58:03,409
But it isn't, because they're doing
something that they want to do.
855
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:05,110
It's not a discipline.
856
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:08,250
Now I have to figure out
how to render this lid.
857
00:58:08,350 --> 00:58:10,049
I don't know whether to do
it with concentric circles,
858
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:14,535
or with just plain old shade lines,
but I'll just do that.
859
00:58:18,030 --> 00:58:20,550
I hate making decisions like that.
860
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:22,950
Why is that?
861
00:58:23,110 --> 00:58:27,110
Because I never know if I'm making the right one.
Frequently I'm not.
862
00:58:27,510 --> 00:58:34,135
One of the things that's hard for me
to do is to attain line consistency.
863
00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:37,649
That's a real important aspect of ink drawing.
864
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:39,750
The line work has to be...
865
00:58:40,430 --> 00:58:44,030
All the lines have to be harmonious in their relationship to each other.
866
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:49,510
So if you have too thick a line in the distance... that's not good.
867
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:51,230
If you have...
868
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:55,824
...lines that are too small and too close
together next to lines that are
869
00:58:55,925 --> 00:59:00,515
thicker and wider apart, even though
they create the same gray value,
870
00:59:00,810 --> 00:59:02,310
it doesn't look right.
871
00:59:03,630 --> 00:59:05,529
A lot of people would
be surprised to hear,
872
00:59:05,630 --> 00:59:08,449
from those few shade lines
on the lid of the jar,
873
00:59:08,550 --> 00:59:11,129
that that's such a difficult
decision right there for you.
874
00:59:11,230 --> 00:59:14,710
Well, you know, see, the thing
is I could have done it like this.
875
00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:27,410
And that would have been more in keeping
with the rest of the inking.
876
00:59:27,530 --> 00:59:29,310
In fact, I think I'll change it.
[laughs]
877
00:59:40,430 --> 00:59:43,750
Not everybody who draws
has to turn their paper.
878
00:59:44,310 --> 00:59:49,209
I do, because I'm... self-trained,
and I never learned...
879
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:53,200
...and I didn't develop
all of those drill techniques.
880
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:56,030
So this is... better, I think.
881
00:59:57,230 --> 00:59:58,850
All right.
882
01:00:00,950 --> 01:00:04,950
Well, I have this penciled to a point
where I'm ready to ink it in.
883
01:00:06,295 --> 01:00:13,183
I do... most of my inking with these little
Brause finger feder nibs here.
884
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,310
People see this nib and they think it's a novelty item,
but it's a great working tool.
885
01:00:18,430 --> 01:00:21,455
-There's only one maker of them, I'd guess...
-Yeah. Yeah, they're Brause nibs.
886
01:00:21,555 --> 01:00:23,110
They're made in Germany.
887
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:27,230
And generally speaking, they
have to be special ordered.
888
01:00:27,650 --> 01:00:31,350
The palm of the hand here
holds a lot of ink, and...
889
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:34,839
...sometimes, if I'm doing
a certain kind of inking,
890
01:00:34,940 --> 01:00:38,030
where I need to do a lot
of lines without breaking,
891
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:40,550
I'll build a reservoir
out of tinfoil,
892
01:00:40,830 --> 01:00:44,030
and wrap it around it,
and it holds the ink in,
893
01:00:44,190 --> 01:00:46,710
like the peanut butter
in a sandwich.
894
01:00:47,350 --> 01:00:49,935
And the point is
sufficiently fine,
895
01:00:50,310 --> 01:00:53,249
that you can get a really thin line,
and it's sufficiently flexible
896
01:00:53,350 --> 01:00:56,430
that you can get a really thick line.
But it's stiff enough...
897
01:00:57,170 --> 01:01:00,310
...that you have to lean on it in
order to...to get the thick line,
898
01:01:00,430 --> 01:01:03,910
and that gives you more control.
At least it gives me more control.
899
01:01:04,150 --> 01:01:07,009
I have this device here
for looking at them,
900
01:01:07,110 --> 01:01:10,049
to see how worn down they are.
901
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:13,809
I know exactly what I want that point
to look like, and this one is perfect.
902
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:17,510
This is... Bombay india ink.
903
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:22,960
And the first thing I'm going to do,
just to sort of get warmed up,
904
01:01:23,110 --> 01:01:26,580
is to do this little bush down
here in the lower corner.
905
01:01:27,000 --> 01:02:03,910
[musical interlude]
906
01:02:04,030 --> 01:02:07,249
And this image here, which is
called The Artist's Eye,
907
01:02:07,350 --> 01:02:12,920
if you were to get a copy of Vermeer's Allegory of Painting picture
908
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:15,930
and compare it side by side with this one,
909
01:02:16,050 --> 01:02:20,030
you would see that it is a
mirror-image reconstruction,
910
01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:22,550
element by element, of that painting.
911
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:26,310
This picture was not so much
inspired as it was concocted.
912
01:02:26,430 --> 01:02:29,510
I wanted to show the idea...
913
01:02:30,550 --> 01:02:34,329
...that this artist here... it's
called The Artist's Eye,
914
01:02:34,430 --> 01:02:37,680
and if you look, his eye looks
like an oat. He's oat-eyed.
915
01:02:37,860 --> 01:02:43,110
And he's wanted to draw this creature here.
This is the thing he has wanted to capture,
916
01:02:43,230 --> 01:02:47,110
and he's got some sketches relating to
it here, and he's finally nailed it.
917
01:02:47,230 --> 01:02:49,510
And what he sees is this kind of porthole,
918
01:02:49,630 --> 01:02:51,809
he's looking at it through
kind of a tunnel vision.
919
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:57,345
He doesn't see this sort of horrible
feminine creature here,
920
01:02:57,446 --> 01:03:01,910
that is cradling the thing and eyeing
him with some kind of otherworldly lust.
921
01:03:02,030 --> 01:03:05,510
He doesn't understand what he's getting
into. I guess the overall message
922
01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:09,510
is that artists frequently mess with
forces they don't understand.
923
01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:12,430
That's the simplest way of putting it.
924
01:03:13,855 --> 01:03:16,255
It's a cynical picture.
It's an anti-art picture.
925
01:03:16,375 --> 01:03:19,275
I was going to do a collection
of pictures like this...
926
01:03:20,375 --> 01:03:23,675
package them up in a case,
and call it The Case Against Art.
927
01:03:24,495 --> 01:03:26,555
But I only did a few before I realized
928
01:03:26,675 --> 01:03:29,795
it was a spectactularly
non-commercial venture.
929
01:03:30,655 --> 01:03:32,025
So I gave it up.
930
01:03:35,855 --> 01:03:38,775
People ask me sometimes
why I draw so many frogs.
931
01:03:39,455 --> 01:03:42,825
And aside from the fact
that they're beautiful...
932
01:03:44,495 --> 01:03:45,975
which is the reason...
933
01:03:47,055 --> 01:03:50,330
If you think about it, frogs
are actually wonderful
934
01:03:51,295 --> 01:03:54,604
symbols for a drawing.
935
01:03:54,705 --> 01:03:57,150
They don't look like people,
936
01:03:57,265 --> 01:04:00,954
but they can be made to be
weirdly anthropomorphic.
937
01:04:01,055 --> 01:04:04,150
For something as unhuman as a frog is,
938
01:04:04,251 --> 01:04:09,295
they lend themselves amazingly well
to stand-ins for human beings.
939
01:04:10,095 --> 01:04:14,345
And I would always rather show an army
of frogs fighting than an army of people.
940
01:04:17,265 --> 01:04:19,175
It's occurred to me that...
941
01:04:21,695 --> 01:04:23,575
...my life has been...
942
01:04:25,055 --> 01:04:27,075
...maybe unusually...
943
01:04:29,695 --> 01:04:33,754
...single in its trajectory.
944
01:04:33,855 --> 01:04:36,895
I've only wanted to do exactly what I'm doing right now,
945
01:04:37,055 --> 01:04:40,095
which is making this kind of picture, pictures which...
946
01:04:41,455 --> 01:04:43,455
...are significant to me...
947
01:04:45,695 --> 01:04:47,055
...and which...
948
01:04:48,255 --> 01:04:51,575
...usually turn out to be
significant to other people.
949
01:04:52,895 --> 01:04:54,495
Some other people.
950
01:04:56,510 --> 01:04:59,855
I guess the question is:
Why do people have ideas?
951
01:05:00,860 --> 01:05:02,775
Why do people want to create?
952
01:05:02,895 --> 01:05:05,994
Why have I devoted my life to
making pictures like this,
953
01:05:06,095 --> 01:05:10,274
instead of doing something more concrete and
constructive and beneficial to mankind?
954
01:05:10,375 --> 01:05:14,430
It must have some significance, because
so many people are drawn to do it.
955
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,836
And if you believe in the
Joseph Campbell theory of...
956
01:05:20,570 --> 01:05:25,290
...universal spiritual meaning
957
01:05:26,495 --> 01:05:30,095
informing the myths and...
958
01:05:32,655 --> 01:05:34,375
...fables of the world,
959
01:05:35,175 --> 01:05:40,154
there's no reason why that wouldn't
pertain to this work,
960
01:05:40,255 --> 01:05:45,390
and other work where people
are doing pictures
961
01:05:45,490 --> 01:05:49,354
that cannot be understood or
explained even by the artist,
962
01:05:49,455 --> 01:05:52,655
but they're doing them simply because
the impulse came to them.
963
01:05:53,455 --> 01:05:56,525
Maybe if you were to look at the work of...
964
01:05:57,975 --> 01:06:01,209
...Kenneth Grahame, who wrote Wind in the Willows, in that light,
965
01:06:01,310 --> 01:06:04,794
you would see that as Joseph Campbell says,
966
01:06:04,895 --> 01:06:09,455
it's a roadmap to enlightenment, if
you just look at it the right way.
967
01:06:10,355 --> 01:06:14,053
But you could read it into almost
any other kind of a story as well.
968
01:06:14,154 --> 01:06:16,495
Maybe there's just really the one story,
969
01:06:17,055 --> 01:06:20,895
and it's something that's constantly
being told in a million ways.
970
01:06:21,175 --> 01:06:25,175
And it's not just entertainment, or
recreation, or for killing time.
971
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:27,980
Maybe it's really deep.
972
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:35,590
But I guess that gets down to the proclivities
of the person who's looking at it.
973
01:06:37,110 --> 01:06:39,030
It's an interesting thought,
974
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:43,743
that there is actually
deep, deep meaning...
975
01:06:44,260 --> 01:06:46,545
...in human creativity.
976
01:06:46,669 --> 01:06:50,469
That we create in order to bring
ourselves closer to some truth
977
01:06:50,570 --> 01:06:52,580
that we can't reach any other way.
978
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:57,260
But... the meaning of it is obscure,
979
01:06:57,380 --> 01:06:59,300
and has to be sussed out,
980
01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:04,760
and especially has to be seen through
the lens of spiritual discipline
981
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,160
which enables your mind to see it.
982
01:07:09,385 --> 01:07:11,139
It's a nice thought.
983
01:07:11,618 --> 01:07:14,939
It's nice to think that this just
isn't all an exercise in futility,
984
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:19,280
that there is meaning behind it,
that meaning can be found it.
985
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:26,080
Not in the literal interpretation of the work
itself, but in the hidden symbolism of it.
986
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,980
Maybe on some level we are all trying
to help each other get...
987
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,190
...to a state of enlightenment,
or deep understanding.
988
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:37,859
I certainly can't tell why
I'm doing this right now.
989
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:42,920
I'm on automatic pilot. I'm just knocking
out one picture after another,
990
01:07:43,135 --> 01:07:47,440
even though it's hard work and it
doesn't really do much for me.
991
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,590
I'm compelled to do it.
It seems significant to me.
992
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:56,259
But, for now, in the real
world, in the here and now,
993
01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:00,259
there's just this tedious squeaking
of the stump on this paper,
994
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,930
as I move these molecules of carbon around.
995
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,460
It's pretty mundane... at that level.
996
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:14,240
And I'm wondering if I can sell this picture
for enough money to make it worthwhile.
997
01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:19,470
In a way, that's pretty important too.
998
01:08:26,050 --> 01:08:28,080
I've always felt that there were...
999
01:08:30,245 --> 01:08:32,350
...sort of two kinds of people. You...
1000
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:35,900
You go out hiking, and
you go up into the mountains,
1001
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,810
and you come across some incredible vista.
1002
01:08:40,730 --> 01:08:44,259
You may feel overwhelmed by the
beauty and the majesty of it all,
1003
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:48,080
and you may regard it as sort of a...
1004
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:51,929
...you know, a heavy and
beautiful experience.
1005
01:08:52,030 --> 01:08:56,380
But some people will fall down on
their knees and thank God that...
1006
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,310
for creating it, for putting them there, and...
1007
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:04,760
...say thank you for showing me this, show
me more, this is a wonderful billboard,
1008
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,779
show me the experience that it represents,
bring me closer, I want to know more.
1009
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:13,059
They address that environment as
if it were alive and thinking,
1010
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:17,179
and controlling itself, and
presenting itself to them.
1011
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,880
And they say: "Yes, yes,
I see you, I venerate you."
1012
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,840
Show me more.
Show me more.
1013
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,880
That picture is called The Holy Land.
That's another Case Against Art picture.
1014
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,880
In this case, Manhog has crept into this place,
1015
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:48,080
in the dead of night, to vandalize it,
or to in other ways enjoy it.
1016
01:09:48,260 --> 01:09:52,779
And he finds himself caught by
the foot, and at the same time,
1017
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:58,480
this nightmarish, fleshy, animal thing
is coming down the hall to get him.
1018
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:04,640
And Manhog's way of dealing with this
crisis is to appeal to this work of art,
1019
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:10,139
which appears to depict Manhog being
born from the fetus of a piglet
1020
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:14,059
and blossoming into all this
ectoplasmic effluvia.
1021
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:19,940
And he's about to make his escape from the museum
in this... through these vents here.
1022
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:24,880
But of course it isn't real.
It's just a meditation upon it.
1023
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:28,760
Somebody else's meditation upon it.
1024
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,360
If he were to start meditating on it,
maybe he would get results.
1025
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,540
Instead of, you know,
heading for the door,
1026
01:10:35,645 --> 01:10:39,512
he's trying to escape
reality through art.
1027
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,259
And the whole point of this
picture was to point out that
1028
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:46,640
that is a foolish attitude,
and a waste of time.
1029
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,780
So then you're not trying to
escape reality through your art?
1030
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,459
No, no, I don't... No!
No, of course not.
1031
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:57,579
You know, I've never... I...
Some people say art is their religion.
1032
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,960
I think that's semi-tragic.
1033
01:11:01,130 --> 01:11:02,890
Because it's a dead end.
1034
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,240
Really, there's no escape.
1035
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:08,550
No escape...?
1036
01:11:08,655 --> 01:11:13,179
No escape. The question I've asked
myself, during the whole of my career,
1037
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:18,539
is whether or not there is any correspondence
between the way I perceive reality
1038
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,680
and the way I express my ideas in my work.
1039
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,890
There is a... a question I
have as to whether or not
1040
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,080
doing the work that I do is
actually some sort of a path.
1041
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:34,760
Maybe just by virtue of keeping
my mind off of other tracks.
1042
01:11:37,025 --> 01:11:39,305
It's an elusive thought, but I feel that...
1043
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:46,019
...all these things that I thought that
I was doing because they interested me,
1044
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:50,690
and they stimulated me, and that I was doing
simply because I was driven to do it,
1045
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:55,320
may actually have some kind of interior
meaning that is emerging over time,...
1046
01:11:56,080 --> 01:12:02,080
and that will actually benefit
me, once I'm past my...
1047
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:08,155
...my usefulness. You know, when I have nothing
to do but live and contemplate the past,
1048
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,659
and prepare myself for the future,
it may... be, I hope it will be,
1049
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:17,829
that I've pre... that I've prepared
myself for it, simply by...
1050
01:12:19,571 --> 01:12:25,240
...developing and maintaining...
my trajectory on this particular path.
1051
01:12:25,660 --> 01:12:39,850
[musical interlude]
1052
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:42,259
I'm a strong believer in philosophy.
1053
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:45,459
I think it's much easier to get
through life if you have one.
1054
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:47,739
Philosophical truths can be real,
1055
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:53,160
where statistical and seeming
other truths are not.
1056
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:57,059
I've learned to pay a lot of
attention to my subconscious,
1057
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:02,860
and I've come to believe that it is
the largest sphere in which I operate,
1058
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:08,500
and that my conscious mind is a...
a tiny and ephemeral fragment of it.
1059
01:13:09,462 --> 01:13:13,280
I really have stayed true
to these impulses.
1060
01:13:13,440 --> 01:13:16,939
And the thing about art not being adequate
1061
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,690
is the conclusion that I came to a while ago.
1062
01:13:20,480 --> 01:13:23,859
I wouldn't say that I was ever anybody
for whom art was my religion,
1063
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,074
but it was the most important thing to me,
and I realized at a certain point,
1064
01:13:27,175 --> 01:13:31,059
I thought, you know, art has to take
a back seat to something bigger.
1065
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,130
This is my life I'm talking about,
this is reality.
1066
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,659
Spending my whole life in
a room making pictures,
1067
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:38,760
and letting that be the whole thing,
that's not enough.
1068
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,100
And I thought: "Okay, I've
got to start trying to...
1069
01:13:44,595 --> 01:13:45,755
...have...
1070
01:13:48,735 --> 01:13:50,490
...something more than that."
1071
01:13:50,590 --> 01:13:55,365
And I thought: "You know, I...
I want a religious framework.
1072
01:13:55,485 --> 01:14:00,060
I want to have some kind of a structure...
1073
01:14:01,148 --> 01:14:05,085
...a brotherhood, a fellowship. I want to
be around other people who want this too."
1074
01:14:05,205 --> 01:14:08,410
And I had no idea where to look
for any of it. I thought:
1075
01:14:08,805 --> 01:14:12,094
"Since I'm living in a Christian country
and I know something about Christianity,
1076
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:15,785
and I know something about
Christian mysticism,
1077
01:14:16,185 --> 01:14:19,505
I should just try to be a Christian."
The idea of...
1078
01:14:20,970 --> 01:14:24,649
...the possibility of there being
somebody like Jesus Christ,
1079
01:14:24,750 --> 01:14:27,604
who is so different from
every other human being,
1080
01:14:27,705 --> 01:14:30,404
that he's not really recognizable
as a human being.
1081
01:14:30,505 --> 01:14:34,605
He's incapable of selfishness,
He's incapable of pettiness,
1082
01:14:34,715 --> 01:14:37,784
He is incapable of a shabby
act or telling a lie.
1083
01:14:37,885 --> 01:14:41,264
He does two things: he worships
God, and he serves mankind.
1084
01:14:41,365 --> 01:14:43,784
That was an ideal that I
instinctively believed in,
1085
01:14:43,885 --> 01:14:46,565
and so I embarked upon finding that,
1086
01:14:46,685 --> 01:14:50,200
and that's what I've been doing
for the past thirty years.
1087
01:14:51,085 --> 01:14:53,085
I was in Los Angeles,
1088
01:14:53,885 --> 01:14:58,107
in 2011, I think,
1089
01:14:58,208 --> 01:15:01,102
because one of my books had been nominated
1090
01:15:01,203 --> 01:15:04,285
for the Los Angeles Times Book Prize,
1091
01:15:04,405 --> 01:15:09,205
and they flew the people in
to attend the ceremony.
1092
01:15:09,330 --> 01:15:14,864
And I was riding on a shuttle
bus with one of the nominees,
1093
01:15:14,965 --> 01:15:17,205
who actually won. I didn't.
1094
01:15:17,365 --> 01:15:21,885
And she had written a book on autism,
about which she was an expert.
1095
01:15:22,165 --> 01:15:24,464
And I was talking to her about that,
1096
01:15:24,565 --> 01:15:26,704
and I asked her to tell me
something about autism,
1097
01:15:26,805 --> 01:15:32,064
and she told me that it was on a spectrum, and
told me what people were doing to treat it.
1098
01:15:32,165 --> 01:15:34,965
And then she said:
"When were you diagnosed?"
1099
01:15:36,565 --> 01:15:38,685
And before I could reply...
1100
01:15:40,005 --> 01:15:43,010
and I guess the reply would have been:
"Diagnosed with what?"
1101
01:15:44,005 --> 01:15:46,565
I thought: "She's an expert."
1102
01:15:47,085 --> 01:15:51,885
"She thinks I'm autistic.
Could there be anything to it?"
1103
01:15:52,565 --> 01:15:57,784
"You know, there might be. Something's
up with me. Maybe I'm autistic."
1104
01:15:57,885 --> 01:16:01,764
"Maybe that's what this is, that I've
been contending with my whole life."
1105
01:16:01,910 --> 01:16:04,285
"My God, I'll bet that's true."
1106
01:16:04,805 --> 01:16:08,064
And I've done a little bit of thinking
and a little bit of looking into it,
1107
01:16:08,165 --> 01:16:13,604
and I've come to the conclusion that
she very well may have been right,
1108
01:16:13,705 --> 01:16:16,005
and that I am a little bit autistic.
1109
01:16:16,685 --> 01:16:19,264
And it's kind of surprising to me
1110
01:16:19,365 --> 01:16:22,892
that I first had this idea
1111
01:16:22,993 --> 01:16:25,960
presented to me
at the age of sixty.
1112
01:16:26,805 --> 01:16:32,405
You would think that word would have been brought
up in connection with my behavior before that.
1113
01:16:34,005 --> 01:16:37,885
But on the other hand,
maybe it was, once again,
1114
01:16:38,005 --> 01:16:42,165
the hand of providence keeping
me from being afflicted
1115
01:16:42,405 --> 01:16:47,664
with a label that would have put paid
to my process of self-discovery,
1116
01:16:47,765 --> 01:16:50,590
because if I had been told earlier in my life:
1117
01:16:50,691 --> 01:16:53,365
"Oh, you have a condition: You're autistic."
1118
01:16:53,485 --> 01:16:56,464
"And here's what it means for you. Here's
what it means for your parents."
1119
01:16:56,565 --> 01:16:59,264
It would have given my parents
a coping mechanism.
1120
01:16:59,365 --> 01:17:01,384
It would have given me something of an out,
1121
01:17:01,485 --> 01:17:04,965
because I could have said,
"I'm autistic! Don't blame me!"
1122
01:17:05,365 --> 01:17:10,059
And it probably would have changed the course
of my life, because instead of having that,
1123
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:14,685
I spent so many years just trying
to figure out what the hell I was.
1124
01:17:14,965 --> 01:17:18,304
This is my mother, and
this is my grandmother.
1125
01:17:18,405 --> 01:17:22,064
They weren't professional models,
but... they posed for a friend,
1126
01:17:22,165 --> 01:17:24,165
who put this poster together.
1127
01:17:26,565 --> 01:17:29,784
-Was it always in your house?
-Yeah, we always...
1128
01:17:29,885 --> 01:17:33,120
We had a couple copies of it. My brother
got one, and I got this one.
1129
01:17:36,705 --> 01:17:38,065
One time...
1130
01:17:38,805 --> 01:17:44,165
I was up at this place called
Ananda Ashrama, and one weekend,
1131
01:17:45,605 --> 01:17:50,005
one Sunday, I was there, and there was
a Catholic priest who was visiting.
1132
01:17:50,805 --> 01:17:55,765
And he was doing good works in Cambodia,
1133
01:17:57,365 --> 01:18:01,765
helping victims of the Khmer Rouge,
at the risk of his life.
1134
01:18:03,205 --> 01:18:07,605
And he told the anecdote about...
1135
01:18:09,765 --> 01:18:14,685
...Saint Francis embracing the leper.
1136
01:18:15,340 --> 01:18:19,664
And when he reached the punchline,
1137
01:18:19,765 --> 01:18:25,604
which is that he took
this wretched, starving,
1138
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:30,105
filthy leper in his arms
and kissed him,
1139
01:18:30,565 --> 01:18:34,165
he looked into his face, and
it was the face of Jesus Christ...
1140
01:18:35,705 --> 01:18:39,205
...well, that's a... that's a
bit of a chestnut, but...
1141
01:18:39,885 --> 01:18:44,805
...when he told it, a mood
sailed out into the room.
1142
01:18:45,765 --> 01:18:49,564
And I think everybody felt it. Certainly,
when we walked out of there,
1143
01:18:49,665 --> 01:18:52,965
everybody was going:
"My God! Did you feel that?"
1144
01:18:53,365 --> 01:18:56,500
This man... this man managed to convey,
1145
01:18:57,355 --> 01:18:59,794
through entirely occult means,
1146
01:19:00,005 --> 01:19:05,664
the sense of what it meant to
experience communion with Christ,
1147
01:19:05,765 --> 01:19:08,855
and he transmitted it to
everybody in that room.
1148
01:19:09,085 --> 01:19:11,365
It was a real heavy experience.
1149
01:19:12,165 --> 01:19:15,384
That's what I was looking for when
I was investigating Christianity,
1150
01:19:15,485 --> 01:19:18,179
but I never found it until that time.
1151
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:20,584
I'm sure that I was surrounded
by people like that,
1152
01:19:20,685 --> 01:19:25,365
but it's hard to recognize a holy person
when you're worldly, like I am.
1153
01:19:27,765 --> 01:19:29,605
I love this painting here.
1154
01:19:31,205 --> 01:19:32,505
Look at this guy.
1155
01:19:32,965 --> 01:19:37,730
He loves that ketchup, and he
loves his wife for buying it.
1156
01:19:39,205 --> 01:19:41,264
What a world!
So beautiful.
1157
01:19:41,365 --> 01:19:44,685
This of course is Sri Ramakrishna.
1158
01:19:45,765 --> 01:19:48,985
The story of Ramakrishna
and Vivekananda is,
1159
01:19:49,085 --> 01:19:53,304
as far as I'm concerned,
the greatest story ever told.
1160
01:19:53,405 --> 01:19:55,784
Vivekananda is the older,
or the younger?
1161
01:19:55,885 --> 01:19:59,504
The younger. Sri Ramakrishna was
a working priest at a temple,
1162
01:19:59,605 --> 01:20:02,565
and Vivekananda was brought
to see him by a friend,
1163
01:20:02,685 --> 01:20:05,724
and Sri Ramakrishna
recognized Vivekananda.
1164
01:20:05,825 --> 01:20:09,664
Vivekananda thought that Sri Ramakrishna
was out of his mind for:
1165
01:20:09,765 --> 01:20:12,615
(A) having an acquaintance...
a pre-acquaintance with Vivekananda,
1166
01:20:12,715 --> 01:20:15,485
and (B) regarding him as an exalted being.
1167
01:20:15,605 --> 01:20:19,899
He argued a lot with Ramakrishna
when Ramakrishna would say:
1168
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,664
"You will do the Mother's
work after I am gone",
1169
01:20:22,765 --> 01:20:27,124
you are this, you are that... and then
just as Sri Ramakrishna had foreseen,
1170
01:20:27,225 --> 01:20:32,185
Vivekananda went on to be the man
who brought Vedanta to the West.
1171
01:20:32,305 --> 01:20:35,284
And he became the most eloquent exponent
1172
01:20:35,385 --> 01:20:39,385
of Sri Ramakrishna's being and teachings.
1173
01:20:40,705 --> 01:20:44,484
The stories surrounding
Sri Ramakrishna and Vivekananda,
1174
01:20:44,585 --> 01:20:48,305
and that whole scene, are just
fantastic. They're so great.
1175
01:20:49,625 --> 01:20:52,324
I say fantastic as if that
means that they're not true,
1176
01:20:52,425 --> 01:20:54,825
but, you know, they're
all heavily documented.
1177
01:20:54,985 --> 01:20:58,204
There's no real doubt that
things unfolded as described.
1178
01:20:58,305 --> 01:21:00,878
Although it could all turn out
to be a phony, you know.
1179
01:21:00,979 --> 01:21:05,505
It could turn out to be that the whole story
was contrived and none of it was true.
1180
01:21:06,705 --> 01:21:08,705
That would be...
1181
01:21:09,225 --> 01:21:13,004
...a catastrophe for me. And
I don't think it will happen,
1182
01:21:13,105 --> 01:21:16,724
but I have to acknowledge the fact
that I'm capable of being fooled.
1183
01:21:16,825 --> 01:21:19,575
Especially in this realm, you
have to test it constantly,
1184
01:21:19,675 --> 01:21:23,385
and be prepared to admit that you're
wrong, and that none of it's true.
1185
01:21:23,785 --> 01:21:28,025
You have to be able to do
that, in order to really...
1186
01:21:30,305 --> 01:21:33,385
...be sure that you're being
honest with yourself.
1187
01:21:37,105 --> 01:21:42,185
In one of your early stories, you talk
about being given the Bhagavad Gita.
1188
01:21:42,305 --> 01:21:45,725
Oh, yes. It was the
Hare Krishna Bhagavad Gita...
1189
01:21:47,385 --> 01:21:51,265
...which is... just one version of it,
1190
01:21:51,385 --> 01:21:54,525
and it has a special emphasis...
1191
01:21:55,625 --> 01:21:58,025
...meaningful to the Hare Krishnas.
1192
01:21:58,620 --> 01:22:03,074
I was warned off of that book
with a spectacular vision
1193
01:22:03,175 --> 01:22:06,825
of something in the book
that upset me so much...
1194
01:22:07,905 --> 01:22:12,705
...that frightened me for a
week just thinking about it.
1195
01:22:17,755 --> 01:22:19,875
A Lovecraftian thing.
1196
01:22:20,985 --> 01:22:23,515
Do you... can you describe it? You didn't
draw it in the... in the comic.
1197
01:22:23,615 --> 01:22:27,944
No, I... I didn't draw it, and I... I don't
think I could describe it, except to say...
1198
01:22:28,045 --> 01:22:31,570
You know, imagine an H.P. Lovecraft
nightmare, something that...
1199
01:22:33,125 --> 01:22:37,105
...you just would never, ever want
to see, because it was just...
1200
01:22:39,125 --> 01:22:43,125
...so bad and so wrong,
and shouldn't exist.
1201
01:22:43,645 --> 01:22:46,904
It was like that. It wasn't
so much what it was,
1202
01:22:47,005 --> 01:22:52,665
it was just the way that it struck me as
being something I should never have seen,
1203
01:22:53,645 --> 01:22:56,225
and that I never wanted to contend with.
1204
01:22:57,105 --> 01:22:59,824
-And when you looked for it again?
-It wasn't there.
1205
01:22:59,925 --> 01:23:03,525
I... I actually became pretty
familiar with that book.
1206
01:23:03,690 --> 01:23:07,080
I didn't know how to find out anything
about legitimate Hinduism,
1207
01:23:07,180 --> 01:23:10,045
and all I had was the
Hare Krishnas, so I...
1208
01:23:10,725 --> 01:23:14,504
...for a while, investigated the
possibility of being a Hare Krishna.
1209
01:23:14,605 --> 01:23:16,266
I like their restaurants.
1210
01:23:16,410 --> 01:23:19,811
I love that satvic vegetarian food.
1211
01:23:21,110 --> 01:23:22,250
But...
1212
01:23:23,410 --> 01:23:27,380
...I just couldn't be a Hare Krishna,
even though I was attracted to Hinduism.
1213
01:23:29,610 --> 01:23:33,040
They take the traditional Hindu
mythology...
1214
01:23:33,615 --> 01:23:37,659
...very seriously, and at
face value, so...
1215
01:23:37,794 --> 01:23:41,744
You know, they believe in a Hindu hell, and...
and that karma will boil you alive
1216
01:23:41,855 --> 01:23:44,605
if you cook too many chickens.
That kind of thing.
1217
01:23:46,045 --> 01:23:48,504
I think one of the terrible evils is the notion
1218
01:23:48,605 --> 01:23:54,000
that if you don't have a religion or
practice religion, God will punish you,
1219
01:23:54,100 --> 01:23:56,205
or abandon you, or turn...
1220
01:23:57,525 --> 01:23:59,925
...turn Its back on you.
1221
01:24:01,890 --> 01:24:03,245
I think that's a...
1222
01:24:04,725 --> 01:24:10,363
...that's an evil, evil construction,
that concept.
1223
01:24:20,865 --> 01:24:25,770
One thing that my subconscious tells
me over and over and over again
1224
01:24:25,925 --> 01:24:28,605
is that the hammer,
the ultimate hammer,
1225
01:24:29,125 --> 01:24:34,380
the hammer of annihilation...
never really falls.
1226
01:24:34,845 --> 01:24:38,904
God plays rough, and the world is
a place that is full of things
1227
01:24:39,005 --> 01:24:41,824
that are so awful they don't
bear thinking about,
1228
01:24:41,925 --> 01:24:46,570
and ecstasies that are so vast
that they can't be contained.
1229
01:24:46,845 --> 01:24:52,605
And this maddeningly irreconcilable
situation that we all have to cope with...
1230
01:24:52,845 --> 01:24:55,245
...it's the funny/scary thing, again.
1231
01:24:55,525 --> 01:24:59,105
It's the über-joke.
It's the cosmic joke.
1232
01:24:59,645 --> 01:25:02,445
It's the great cosmic joke.
1233
01:25:06,205 --> 01:25:10,205
Vedantists say that Brahman...
1234
01:25:11,645 --> 01:25:14,845
...is the ultimate reality, it's
absolutely everything...
1235
01:25:15,645 --> 01:25:19,245
...but that it is undifferentiated
and unmoving.
1236
01:25:20,725 --> 01:25:25,360
The traditional philosophy says that
Brahman is beyond...
1237
01:25:26,045 --> 01:25:29,645
...comprehension. The human mind
can never understand it,
1238
01:25:30,045 --> 01:25:32,325
which I call The Certainty Principle.
1239
01:25:34,445 --> 01:25:39,005
That no matter what happens, science
will never be able to tell you
1240
01:25:39,245 --> 01:25:41,854
what Brahman is, where it is,
1241
01:25:41,955 --> 01:25:45,525
what it's made of, what it does,
or anything.
1242
01:25:45,805 --> 01:25:49,250
The... the machinery does not exist
1243
01:25:49,378 --> 01:25:53,366
that can measure or describe Brahman.
1244
01:25:55,005 --> 01:26:00,800
It's totally beyond that.
The only instrument on Earth
1245
01:26:01,405 --> 01:26:04,610
that can see and understand Brahman
1246
01:26:04,710 --> 01:26:07,915
is the purified human mind.
1247
01:26:12,700 --> 01:26:16,950
According to Vedanta, the mind
is a part of the physical world.
1248
01:26:18,605 --> 01:26:24,045
The only aspect of your makeup, which
is a reflection of Brahman, is the...
1249
01:26:25,005 --> 01:26:27,925
...is your consciousness, your Atman.
1250
01:26:29,125 --> 01:26:30,700
One of the main...
1251
01:26:31,925 --> 01:26:35,245
...reasons for embarking upon...
1252
01:26:36,605 --> 01:26:40,634
...the path of Vedanta
is to purify your mind,
1253
01:26:40,735 --> 01:26:43,925
so that you can experience your Atman.
1254
01:26:44,445 --> 01:26:48,020
You can experience that aspect
of you which is eternal.
1255
01:26:48,205 --> 01:26:50,605
Vedantists believe that...
1256
01:26:51,805 --> 01:26:53,600
...the physical world...
1257
01:26:54,605 --> 01:26:59,005
...is a source of the energy
that is your mind.
1258
01:26:59,805 --> 01:27:02,224
Not your consciousness, your mind.
1259
01:27:02,325 --> 01:27:05,125
How do they differentiate between
consciousness and mind?
1260
01:27:05,805 --> 01:27:10,045
Well, your mind thinks,
and your consciousness knows.
1261
01:27:13,125 --> 01:27:16,605
This physical universe is
1262
01:27:16,725 --> 01:27:19,805
ever-changing and temporary.
1263
01:27:20,445 --> 01:27:23,645
It came into existence, and
it will pass out of existence.
1264
01:27:24,445 --> 01:27:28,997
But the consciousness
that is responsible
1265
01:27:29,098 --> 01:27:33,645
for it coming into being, I mean,
the consciousness, and the...
1266
01:27:34,725 --> 01:27:38,045
...the omnipotent power of the absolute,
1267
01:27:39,245 --> 01:27:42,045
which is behind the creation
of the physical universe,
1268
01:27:43,005 --> 01:27:46,145
is eternal and infinite,
1269
01:27:47,805 --> 01:27:49,095
and...
1270
01:27:50,605 --> 01:27:53,925
...real, in a way that the
physical universe is not.
1271
01:28:01,125 --> 01:28:05,805
The goal of a Vedantist is to
live in the world without being...
1272
01:28:07,245 --> 01:28:08,760
...run by it.
1273
01:28:12,725 --> 01:28:16,545
Without being manipulated by it, or
frightened by it, or fooled by it.
1274
01:28:18,845 --> 01:28:21,525
-You know the word maya?-Yes.
1275
01:28:22,605 --> 01:28:25,370
Well, that would be the
enemy of enlightenment.
1276
01:28:31,125 --> 01:28:34,845
And it's interesting to think that
there are people who really have...
1277
01:28:36,445 --> 01:28:42,335
...followed that path all the way to the end,
and truly seen what is...
1278
01:28:43,245 --> 01:28:44,725
...what is real.
1279
01:28:45,620 --> 01:28:51,445
And that that is an option that
everybody has, to go down that path,
1280
01:28:52,045 --> 01:28:54,045
to turn their backs on all the things
1281
01:28:54,155 --> 01:28:57,005
that bring them temporary pain
and temporary pleasure,
1282
01:28:58,725 --> 01:29:01,505
over and over and over again, and to...
1283
01:29:05,345 --> 01:29:06,945
...to perceive the...
1284
01:29:10,845 --> 01:29:13,044
...the whatever it is [laughs]
that is beyond that,
1285
01:29:13,145 --> 01:29:15,125
-whatever it is.-The ineffable.
1286
01:29:15,245 --> 01:29:17,424
The ineffable. Which, you know,
people who meditate,
1287
01:29:17,525 --> 01:29:20,325
they get little signs of
encouragement along the way.
1288
01:29:24,845 --> 01:29:29,005
They have visions, or they...
they see the famous white light,
1289
01:29:29,805 --> 01:29:31,405
or they...
1290
01:29:33,645 --> 01:29:39,415
...have, you know, sort of extra...
...extra physical sensations,
1291
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:43,805
and perceptions that tell them that
they're on the right path.
1292
01:29:44,725 --> 01:29:49,125
Because people wouldn't do that,
people wouldn't spend years meditating,
1293
01:29:49,525 --> 01:29:52,744
and pursuing these things,
if there wasn't something in it.
1294
01:29:52,845 --> 01:29:54,605
It's too much work.
1295
01:29:55,645 --> 01:29:57,645
There has to be something...
1296
01:29:58,725 --> 01:30:03,024
...that makes it worthwhile for
these people who spend decades
1297
01:30:03,125 --> 01:30:07,645
doing this difficult work
of practicing austerities,
1298
01:30:08,845 --> 01:30:11,005
or they couldn't possibly do it.
1299
01:30:11,925 --> 01:30:16,244
If I told... if, you know, if somebody suggested
that you sit for a half an hour, or an hour,
1300
01:30:16,350 --> 01:30:20,205
or two hours every single day and try
to focus your mind on something,
1301
01:30:20,845 --> 01:30:24,205
but there is no payoff, you wouldn't do it.
1302
01:30:25,125 --> 01:30:26,744
And if they told you there was a payoff,
1303
01:30:26,845 --> 01:30:30,725
and you did it for years and years and there
was no payoff, you wouldn't keep doing it.
1304
01:30:39,805 --> 01:30:44,325
And it's plainly not for everybody.
Not everybody is interested.
1305
01:30:45,005 --> 01:30:49,125
And I think in the long run, it doesn't
matter whether people do this or not.
1306
01:30:52,180 --> 01:30:55,144
If you're not attracted to meditation
or spiritual practice,
1307
01:30:55,245 --> 01:30:58,325
there's no reason for you
to be interested in it.
1308
01:30:59,615 --> 01:31:01,245
If you are...
1309
01:31:03,525 --> 01:31:07,470
then probably nothing else
will ever satisfy you.
1310
01:31:11,005 --> 01:31:15,245
There's an application to
which form and color and...
1311
01:31:15,925 --> 01:31:18,478
...the implication of something...
1312
01:31:18,579 --> 01:31:22,400
...cosmic and rich going on...
1313
01:31:22,970 --> 01:31:26,845
...that I have not figured out how to do.
I know it can be done,
1314
01:31:28,445 --> 01:31:33,245
of course. But I...
haven't figured it out.
1315
01:31:33,645 --> 01:31:37,645
That's sort of something
I'm always trying to do.
1316
01:31:39,805 --> 01:31:45,245
I feel that there is something...
something real behind all this,
1317
01:31:45,645 --> 01:31:50,980
and that the single-minded pursuit of it,
over all these years,
1318
01:31:51,645 --> 01:31:54,045
is getting me closer to it.
1319
01:31:58,305 --> 01:32:00,345
I don't think there's anything...
1320
01:32:01,405 --> 01:32:05,210
...innately heavy or spiritual in my work,
1321
01:32:06,205 --> 01:32:10,445
but there is something definitely
innately spiritual in my...
1322
01:32:10,845 --> 01:32:14,890
...approach to it,
and in my approach to life.
1323
01:32:19,405 --> 01:32:23,925
And... as time goes on,
I become more and more convinced...
1324
01:32:25,125 --> 01:32:29,245
...that simply pursuing it with
single-minded conviction
1325
01:32:30,325 --> 01:32:33,641
can lead to that ultimate
1326
01:32:34,300 --> 01:32:36,709
revelation to man.
1327
01:32:40,045 --> 01:32:49,245
[wind and chimes]
1328
01:32:51,245 --> 01:35:42,245
[end credits music]
1329
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:45,700
English Transcription
by Eli Bishop
1330
01:35:45,805 --> 01:35:49,105
Spanish Translation and Synchronization
by Iván Payá
1331
01:35:49,210 --> 01:35:52,510
Subtitles - SUBTITULARTE
1332
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If you want, I can give you a quick glimpse
of a painting that has been rejected.
1333
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-Rejected?
-Yeah.
1334
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-By whom?
-By me.
1335
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But you can only have the quickest
possible glimpse of it.
1336
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I'm just going to turn it around
once, so... catch it.
1337
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Because I'm going to paint over this.
I'm not happy with it.
1338
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-Say when!-When.
1339
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When did you paint that?
1340
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Oh, a few years ago.
1341
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No freeze-frames.
1342
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There's something really nice about seeing a...
a shore across the water,
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realizing that you can't get there easily.
1344
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Hm.
1345
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[windchimes]
1346
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[WOODRING whistling]
1347
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[rustling papers]
1348
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Well, what do you want to do now?
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SUBTITULARTE
119926
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